Updates 2023 (job hunt etc)

[Kanin]

10 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Getting there 

This is really fantastic! 

[maize]

@heartlikealion I am so impressed with the can-do attitude with which you have approached not only this art project (which is shaping up fantastically!) but the entire re-organization of your life post separation. You've faced every obstacle with courage and determination and are building a workable life for yourself step by step, even though I know it isn't the life you wanted or anticipated. 

Your kids are lucky to have you for a mom and for an example of persevering and making the best of difficult circumstances.

[heartlikealion]

I thought we were making progress but maybe not. It’s disheartening. Ds says he only comes over to see his sister & to make sure I’m not abusing her. He defends his father to a fault as if he has Stockholm syndrome. Xh spanked ds recently. Ds didn’t tell me, dd did. Ds excused the behavior and didn’t want me to know for legal reasons. Dd said Xh goes back to work after they get out of school. I was confused as Xh’s shift ends when the kids get to the bus stop. So ds is feeding dd dinner and watching her some afternoons. Ds said this is only because they are short staffed and dad needs to provide for the family. If that was me it would be, “mom is never around.” 

Anything I do will be twisted to horrible but if it’s dad it’s ok. Kids asked for pop tarts and I bought them and ds accused me of feeding dd junk food (technically yes but..) They eat pop tarts all the time at dad’s house. I rarely buy them. 

Everything feels like crazy making and I don’t tolerate that very well anymore. 

A few days ago Xh asked me to watch the kids next weekend so he could attend a conference. I said sure. Then he said I would have them Labor Day, too (which I didn’t expect). Then today called me and said he decided to skip the conference and take the kids to TX over the weekend. Nothing makes sense. That’s 7 hours away and I’d assume at least one night in a hotel. Ds said he knew Saturday and I said why didn’t you tell me? He said because it’s none of my business (I explained why it’s my business). It do realize it’s not ds’ job to update me, though. His dad could have easily told me on Sat. 

Anyway I guess I just felt like I had the rug pulled out from under me in a couple ways by both of them. There’s no winning. 

[Rosie_0801]

No, there isn't any winning. You have to get to being the proverbial duck, appearing to take everything seriously and believing absolutely none of it until it has already happened.

At some point, you may have to say that while you understand he needs to side with his father against you, he needs to do it without crossing the line into abusing you, since you have the right to parent your daughter however you see fit, while she is in your care.

Are you expecting to go back to court for custody at any point? If not, pay absolutely no attention to what happens at his house. It hurts and it is pointless pain, because he's got every right to parent or not however he pleases while the children are in his care.

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

I thought we were making progress but maybe not. It’s disheartening. Ds says he only comes over to see his sister & to make sure I’m not abusing her. He defends his father to a fault as if he has Stockholm syndrome. Xh spanked ds recently. Ds didn’t tell me, dd did. Ds excused the behavior and didn’t want me to know for legal reasons. Dd said Xh goes back to work after they get out of school. I was confused as Xh’s shift ends when the kids get to the bus stop. So ds is feeding dd dinner and watching her some afternoons. Ds said this is only because they are short staffed and dad needs to provide for the family. If that was me it would be, “mom is never around.” 

Anything I do will be twisted to horrible but if it’s dad it’s ok. Kids asked for pop tarts and I bought them and ds accused me of feeding dd junk food (technically yes but..) They eat pop tarts all the time at dad’s house. I rarely buy them. 

Everything feels like crazy making and I don’t tolerate that very well anymore. 

A few days ago Xh asked me to watch the kids next weekend so he could attend a conference. I said sure. Then he said I would have them Labor Day, too (which I didn’t expect). Then today called me and said he decided to skip the conference and take the kids to TX over the weekend. Nothing makes sense. That’s 7 hours away and I’d assume at least one night in a hotel. Ds said he knew Saturday and I said why didn’t you tell me? He said because it’s none of my business (I explained why it’s my business). It do realize it’s not ds’ job to update me, though. His dad could have easily told me on Sat. 

Anyway I guess I just felt like I had the rug pulled out from under me in a couple ways by both of them. There’s no winning. 

I'm sorry, that's hard.  I can't give advice about how to deal with your ex, but from the point of view of a child who was in a similar situation, I would concentrate on saying 'Oh, okay' or similar. 

You always feed us junk food.  Oh, okay

Dad already booked hotel rooms for that weekend.  Oh, okay

I only come to see you because of my sister.  Oh, okay

He's hurt and lashing out.  Lashing out at the situation he finds himself in.  It's safe to lash out at you because, deep down, he knows you will be there for him.  It's so hard not to react, but he just wants to be heard in his distress.  He is not able to take in the rights and wrongs of things, even if you lay them out to him.  That will only come years, possibly decades later.

Good luck.  This is so hard.

[heartlikealion]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

No, there isn't any winning. You have to get to being the proverbial duck, appearing to take everything seriously and believing absolutely none of it until it has already happened.

At some point, you may have to say that while you understand he needs to side with his father against you, he needs to do it without crossing the line into abusing you, since you have the right to parent your daughter however you see fit, while she is in your care.

Are you expecting to go back to court for custody at any point? If not, pay absolutely no attention to what happens at his house. It hurts and it is pointless pain, because he's got every right to parent or not however he pleases while the children are in his care.

You’re right. I don’t know if we’ll go back to court one day but it would probably have to be years from now (when dd is old enough to state a preference, if she showed an interest in living with me and ds was in college or done with school). 

We both can parent how we want which is why it was so irritating he starting getting onto me about letting the kids stay up too late during their stay (if they stayed up late it was Friday night. We had school & church the other mornings so I didn’t want them up real late). All while it was 10:25pm and I could hear dd hadn’t gone to bed yet at his home. I think he was having a tough time. He plans to take a class in the spring. I think he will lose his patience trying to study and do homework with kids around. But that’s his decision. 

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

I'm sorry, that's hard.  I can't give advice about how to deal with your ex, but from the point of view of a child who was in a similar situation, I would concentrate on saying 'Oh, okay' or similar. 

You always feed us junk food.  Oh, okay

Dad already booked hotel rooms for that weekend.  Oh, okay

I only come to see you because of my sister.  Oh, okay

He's hurt and lashing out.  Lashing out at the situation he finds himself in.  It's safe to lash out at you because, deep down, he knows you will be there for him.  It's so hard not to react, but he just wants to be heard in his distress.  He is not able to take in the rights and wrongs of things, even if you lay them out to him.  That will only come years, possibly decades later.

Good luck.  This is so hard.

The only problem with that is I struggle with any response that sounds like an omission of guilt. So they can come back and say I agreed. But I do need to learn a way to react better. After the food comment dd piped up that I made her a rice dish she loved. 

[Laura Corin]

26 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

 

The only problem with that is I struggle with any response that sounds like an omission of guilt. So they can come back and say I agreed. But I do need to learn a way to react better. After the food comment dd piped up that I made her a rice dish she loved. 

Maybe just 'ah'? Or similar?  An acknowledgement that you heard but reserved your judgement. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

The only problem with that is I struggle with any response that sounds like an omission of guilt. So they can come back and say I agreed. But I do need to learn a way to react better. 

Usually when I'm dealing with impossible people they get "I acknowledge you spoke" or "I acknowledge receipt of your message."

Anything too outrageous would get called out because I can only cope with so much injustice myself. 

 

He has higher standards for you than his father. It's a pretty horrible kind of compliment, isn't it?

[heartlikealion]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Usually when I'm dealing with impossible people they get "I acknowledge you spoke" or "I acknowledge receipt of your message."

Anything too outrageous would get called out because I can only cope with so much injustice myself. 

He has higher standards for you than his father. It's a pretty horrible kind of compliment, isn't it?

Lol at the last part. 

[bolt.]

There's no such thing as progress.

The ups and downs are normal.

Your son is angry because he is not feeling like the "care" he is getting is fully meeting his (and his sister's) needs.

The childish assessment of "why" his needs are unmet is because of the divorce. The childish "solution" is to criticize you until you 'up your game' enough to compensate for everything that is wrong. (He knows expecting dad to 'up his game' probably won't work, so he isn't trying that.)

Of course that's not going to work for him. (Being critical never solves anything, and there is no way for you to provide 'enough' care on your time to make up for the needs going unmet at other times!)

But don't let the way he is flailing around in his distress actually make the situation worse. Just blink, breathe, and carry on providing the best care you can.

Maybe try to keep these hurtful conversations brief. Neutral answers like, "I see." and "Okay." -- are really powerful.

They mean, "I see that you are a kid in distress, and I can be here for you." and, "It's okay for you to be irrational. Things are tough for you right now." They don't mean, "You're right, I'm a terrible mom." They just mean that you can keep your heart open towards a child, even when a child is wounding you.

You can also say you're sorry, even if the attack is very harsh. Saying you're sorry can mean, "Yes, a small mistake was being made, and yes, you noticed it. Yes, I regret it and want to apologize, accept responsibility, and make things right between us -- even though it's not anything like the horrific offense you seem to be experiencing right now.

It's important not to compare "but it's the same or worse at dad's house" -- it's not healthy, and your kids aren't interested in fairness or comparison. It sounds like your son does have a double standard: "Mom *can* do better, therefore mom *should* do better." That's not fair, but he's a kid. His perspective isn't going to be reasonable all the time. Just provide the best care you can, and nurture the best relationship you can. Respond to your kids' complaints in a reasonable and grace-filled way, and forget about that other house completely. You are independent. Treat yourself like you are independent.

(But if your ex wants to offer criticism too -- that's dumb. You can tell him very politely to go jump in a lake. You don't have to take those phone calls, and if you do take them, you can end them early as soon as you figure out what is going on. "I'm comfortable with my decision about (weekend bedtimes). Have a nice day, Goodbye.")

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Maybe just 'ah'? Or similar?  An acknowledgement that you heard but reserved your judgement. 

My grandmother had this, "hmmm" she would say whenever she didn't want to actually agree, but wanted to know she heard us. 

Another option is, "I hear what you are saying."

[maize]

The positives here are that your son is coming to your house, and that your son is talking to you. And the talking thing really is huge.

There can be no guarantees that his perspective and understanding will improve, or that you and he will ever have a wonderful and close relationship. But he's a kid and you're his mom and the fact that he shares his thoughts and perspective with you means there is a real relationship.

That's a good thing.

[heartlikealion]

15 minutes ago, maize said:

The positives here are that your son is coming to your house, and that your son is talking to you. And the talking thing really is huge.

There can be no guarantees that his perspective and understanding will improve, or that you and he will ever have a wonderful and close relationship. But he's a kid and you're his mom and the fact that he shares his thoughts and perspective with you means there is a real relationship.

That's a good thing.

We had a fight (which apparently was based on a misunderstanding) and then it escalated into the negative dumping. It's hard to consider any of it a win as I don't know if I want someone coming to my house just to be a spy for Dad and to criticize me. But I know I'm supposed to not say or think such things as the adult.

[bolt.]

It's not unusual for someone (even an adult, and a parent) to have some reactions and thoughts, that don't represent their true opinions, when they are upset.

It's good that communication occurred -- even though it was probably not completely accurate and truthful, because it happened in the form of an argument and was influenced by anger.

It's also good that you are aware of and can clearly hear some of your own automatic (negative) thoughts. It gives you the opportunity to interrogate those thoughts and ask yourself if they are actually truthful, and push in on them to see if they most accurately represent the whole of your opinion on the matter.

When you are ready to interrogate the thought about your son "coming just to be a spy" -- you might ask yourself questions about the word "just" (Do you really think that is the sole and only function of the visits in his life?) and you might ask yourself questions about "coming to spy" (Do you think his 'spying' is his personal intention and his goal?) and you might ask questions about the word "spy" (Is it really wrong for a child to be talking about his various experiences from one parent to the other? Or is that just talking? Is it equally 'spying' if he lets you know some of his experiences from his other home? Or is that different?)

For now, it sounds like you are hurt and (justifiably) feeling defensive, under surveillance, vulnerable, and harshly judged. Naming your feelings, and normalizing them, will be much more effective (and healthy) than focusing on the actual events and their injustice.

[Indigo Blue]

14 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

We had a fight (which apparently was based on a misunderstanding) and then it escalated into the negative dumping. It's hard to consider any of it a win as I don't know if I want someone coming to my house just to be a spy for Dad and to criticize me. But I know I'm supposed to not say or think such things as the adult.

My heart breaks for you. Your son has a mom who wants nothing more than a normal, healthy relationship. That is something I’ve always wanted with my mom, and he has that and can’t see it. You’re showing unconditional love. And he seems to be blind to it right now. I hope that one day he will be able to understand this.

[heartlikealion]

Thanks, ladies 

I know he’s free to communicate with his father but it’s just hard when it feels like I have no privacy (I was told in therapy not to really share about my life to my ex). He calls his dad and texts him while he’s here but mostly doesn’t look at my texts and never calls me. It hurts but I have mostly accepted this. 

I also know some things are ridiculous like me firmly telling dd she can’t speak to me a certain way (she tells me I’m stupid and annoying when she’s mad) and enforcing some boundaries and during some interaction I got loud so ds says I abused her and I’m mean. Everything is always blown out of proportion. It’s like being a teacher with an evaluator in the corner of the room… every day. The whole spy concept is because he freely admits certain behavior was influenced by court. But logically why would Xh take me to court in the future… what point would there be in him spying. I don’t know, dad’s clout, ego, attempt to control? Lord it over me I’m a “lesser” parent? I don’t know. I just get self conscious and past patterns have told me it’s not a bad idea to be aware of another shoe dropping.

At the end of the day dd and I are always ok. She’s just strong-willed, young etc. Dad asked me to make her sleep alone because he wants her to stop asking to cosleep there. I have to wait for her to fall asleep to keep her in her bed — I know she’s too old for that. But she’s very persistent. I went to my room and she came to me a few hours later. In a way it’s none of his business if we cosleep but also I get that she should sleep in her room. I need my time and space, too. 

I’ll work on my responses and reactions. That’s all I can do I guess. 

[maize]

I would take anything your son says when angry with an entire cupful of salt. When people are angry, they say things they know will be hurtful because, in the moment, they want to cause hurt.

It doesn't mean those are the things they think and feel most of the time.

Even adult humans behave in illogical and relationship-damaging ways when under the influence of strong emotions. Immature humans do too.

[freesia]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Thanks, ladies 

I know he’s free to communicate with his father but it’s just hard when it feels like I have no privacy (I was told in therapy not to really share about my life to my ex). He calls his dad and texts him while he’s here but mostly doesn’t look at my texts and never calls me. It hurts but I have mostly accepted this. 

I also know some things are ridiculous like me firmly telling dd she can’t speak to me a certain way (she tells me I’m stupid and annoying when she’s mad) and enforcing some boundaries and during some interaction I got loud so ds says I abused her and I’m mean. Everything is always blown out of proportion. It’s like being a teacher with an evaluator in the corner of the room… every day. The whole spy concept is because he freely admits certain behavior was influenced by court. But logically why would Xh take me to court in the future… what point would there be in him spying. I don’t know, dad’s clout, ego, attempt to control? Lord it over me I’m a “lesser” parent? I don’t know. I just get self conscious and past patterns have told me it’s not a bad idea to be aware of another shoe dropping.

At the end of the day dd and I are always ok. She’s just strong-willed, young etc. Dad asked me to make her sleep alone because he wants her to stop asking to cosleep there. I have to wait for her to fall asleep to keep her in her bed — I know she’s too old for that. But she’s very persistent. I went to my room and she came to me a few hours later. In a way it’s none of his business if we cosleep but also I get that she should sleep in her room. I need my time and space, too. 

I’ll work on my responses reactions. That’s all I can do I guess. 

Yes, all you can do is work on your responses and reactions.  But I just want to say that just as you have no say in his house, he has no say in yours.  The PP gave you some good lines upthread to use about the bedtimes.  You need to shut him down about the cosleeping.  Tell him only that you will consider it, but do not discuss it.  Are you communicating on that app you mentioned a few months ago?  I wouldn't let him call me and tell me what to do.

I'm sorry you feel so watched and judged by your ds. Divorce aside, sometimes that is how it feels to parent a teen.  I have often said, "I can't win."  It is awesome he is communicating with you.  Bold has incredible advice.

[heartlikealion]

11 minutes ago, freesia said:

Yes, all you can do is work on your responses and reactions.  But I just want to say that just as you have no say in his house, he has no say in yours.  The PP gave you some good lines upthread to use about the bedtimes.  You need to shut him down about the cosleeping.  Tell him only that you will consider it, but do not discuss it.  Are you communicating on that app you mentioned a few months ago?  I wouldn't let him call me and tell me what to do.

I'm sorry you feel so watched and judged by your ds. Divorce aside, sometimes that is how it feels to parent a teen.  I have often said, "I can't win."  It is awesome he is communicating with you.  Bold has incredible advice.

The app didn’t have a real chat feature that we could find. Just a place to say events or add a note to an event. 

We don’t call each other very often and mostly communicate through text. I sometimes just don’t respond to texts, which don’t really warrant a response. I dropped the kids off last night and he called asking if ds left his school chrome book here (Why even call me at all when it was in the backpack all along lol), berated me for keeping too many of dd’s uniform polos (I realized this right before I got to his house and offered to go back home and get them but he insisted he had one for Monday) and mentioned a bedtime comment. Apparently she outgrew the one polo there and he wouldn’t outright ask me to bring it that night or offer to come get it — it was 10:30 at night. I finally just drove over there and left them in a bag on the door and told him via text without seeing him. I was so over it. He orders the uniforms and I’m (at the moment) only “allowed” to keep one shirt here. I am allowed to place my own order but they are very $$ and I already sent child support. He said more will arrive soon and I can keep a couple here. 

[Rosie_0801]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Dad asked me to make her sleep alone because he wants her to stop asking to cosleep there. I have to wait for her to fall asleep to keep her in her bed — I know she’s too old for that. But she’s very persistent. I went to my room and she came to me a few hours later. In a way it’s none of his business if we cosleep but also I get that she should sleep in her room. I need my time and space, too. 

My 15yo still wants to co-sleep. I only have a single bed, though, so I have to send her to her own bed at some point in the night or I would ache too much to get enough sleep. It's a compromise. She needs the comfort and there's no way to get enough during the day.

[heartlikealion]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

My 15yo still wants to co-sleep. I only have a single bed, though, so I have to send her to her own bed at some point in the night or I would ache too much to get enough sleep. It's a compromise. She needs the comfort and there's no way to get enough during the day.

Thank you for sharing! It’s the same. I have a twin bed so I started with her in her room then went to mine… but she woke up looking for me so I just let her climb in and we went to sleep. Most nights it’s the path of least resistance. I get cuddles and she falls asleep fairly quickly. For years she’s woken up looking for me, stands by the bathroom or where ever I am and insists she won’t go to sleep alone. A few weeks ago I did a workout after the kids were in bed but then she came looking for me. I was just glad I got my HIIT done. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

Thank you for sharing! It’s the same. I have a twin bed so I started with her in her room then went to mine… but she woke up looking for me so I just let her climb in and we went to sleep. Most nights it’s the path of least resistance. I get cuddles and she falls asleep fairly quickly. For years she’s woken up looking for me, stands by the bathroom or where ever I am and insists she won’t go to sleep alone. A few weeks ago I did a workout after the kids were in bed but then she came looking for me. I was just glad I got my HIIT done. 

Better they co-sleep with us than go looking for premature boyfriends, I guess.
 

I can understand a father wanting a daughter in her own bed, but you enforcing the same at your house won't solve his problem.

[Rosie_0801]

Now I come to think of it, my aunt used to share with her mother if she was staying over at her mum's when she was in her 30's, even though there was a spare room. Some people are just the snuggly type. *shrug*

[fairfarmhand]

Just so you know, my teens are living with both parents in the home and still comment about how I parent siblings. They're also very critical at times of me.

Teens sometimes think they know everything there is to know about everything and if you would just do X that sibling wouldn't be behaving that way! 

I know it's hard to do but do your best to not take things personally.

And you are definitely right, there is no winning with a teen like this, so try to not engage. "Okay," is an adequate resposne.

"You shouldn't be giving us JUNK FOOD here."

"Okay."

"Dad makes us go to bed at 9:30."

"Okay."

He may be trying to bait you into an argument. My oldest had anxiety and she would try to start arguments because it seemed that she would have this big emotional explosion and it let her blow off steam at me and most of the time it had little to do with me. (Somehow in her brain she would convince herself that it was my fault) It was like it was cathartic for her to do that. But it sure did tear me up. It is possible that your ds may be trying to pick a fight as a way of stress relief.

Or not. He just may be a punky teen who wants to try to make your crazy.

You're doing just fine, even though your ds is being a pain. Hang in there! As much as it sucks to deal with this, it's probably even worse to be your ds. He likely resents having to baby sit so much.

[gardenmom5]

12 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

 

The only problem with that is I struggle with any response that sounds like an omission of guilt. So they can come back and say I agreed. But I do need to learn a way to react better. After the food comment dd piped up that I made her a rice dish she loved. 

Dr. Les Carter suggested saying "whatever".  You're not agreeing and can't be interpreted as agreeing - but it does acknowledge you heard what was said.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

  . It is possible that your ds may be trying to pick a fight as a way of stress relief.

Or not. He just may be a punky teen who wants to try to make your crazy.

 

He can't lash out at dad - he lives there.  He may have a deep fear that if he expresses anger/hurt at his dad - he won't have anywhere to live.  After all - his family has been split up.  He is probably holding in what he really feels about things.  He may not even be aware where his anger is coming from, so mom is a "safe" target. 

He doesn't live with mom, so he can lash at her.

 

[maize]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Dr. Les Carter suggested saying "whatever".  You're not agreeing and can't be interpreted as agreeing - but it does acknowledge you heard what was said.

I think most teenagers would interpret "whatever" coming from a parent as a very rude dismissal of what they said.

The teenager themself will of course feel free it use "whatever" as a response, but I really wouldn't recommend that a parent who is trying to maintain open lines of communication and to help their child feel heard, though not necessarily agreed with, respond this way.

[Tree Frog]

10 minutes ago, maize said:

I think most teenagers would interpret "whatever" coming from a parent as a very rude dismissal of what they said.

It's not just teens who would interpret it as rude. I've been told this by another adult and find it very rude.

Heart, I'm sorry it's so difficult. The experience I have with divorce caused me not to speak to my mom for 5 years beginning when I was about 18. She continued to keep the door open and sent me birthday and Christmas cards and gifts. I don't think my mom probably ever expected to have a relationship with me, but 5 years later we began again. It's what allowed the relationship to eventually mostly heal. Despite the pain, think long range. I'm sorry you're in this position.

[heartlikealion]

Good points 

I do think he was being extra critical because of how I handled the original situation — which was him insinuating I take his money and don’t replace it (the few times I borrowed). I said that was a different bank acct and he’d legitimately used up that gift money on stuff he bought. Any other gift money he had from my side of the family was cash and I reminded him I gave him that and he put that in the bank acct dad created him. When I went to the post office a bank statement was there and I handed it to him as proof that the money was still there. I did a terrible job at conveying it (I was uh rude/snarky or such… coming from defensiveness). You know when you’re story telling and you do a false voice to represent the other person? I did that (as in, “you spent all my money” and he said I made fun of his voice… I said I didn’t mean it that way (but later realized it doesn’t matter, it was uncalled for and not a flattering way to repeat what he said). 

He explained he was genuinely confused (I felt badly) and cannot handle me giving him any tone. I’m mean if I get a tone. So in addition to knowing he’s extra sensitive with tone and volume I’m trying to rethink how I respond in general. It’s natural for me to get a little sassy sometimes when questioned but I should try to drop that, in general. I hate to admit he’s right it doesn’t help anything. I will need to give myself an internal time out before responding. 

All this to say I can work on things with myself that will benefit us. 

[Rosie_0801]

Yeah. Work on stuff. 
Don't expect perfection, though. Firstly it's impossible. Hurt people will just move the goalposts. Secondly, you're a traumatised human too. It's okay for you to tell him you're a traumatised human too, but, you're doing your best. It's really hard when parent and child have the same trauma.

[thewellerman]

I know that there is a lot of trauma there, and doing the best everyone can is important, but I think it is okay to not be perfect.  I think it is even better to not be perfect.  I want my kids to know that it is okay to be a person, to have struggles, to learn, and to grow.  I frequently apologize to my kids, and I don't hide that I'm just another human.  The result seems to be an openness and willingness, even an expectation, to work on relationships as a routine thing.  I share with them the things I am learning, and what prompted me to learn it, which is fostering a growth mindset in them.  Since no one has to be perfect, and the purpose of communicating is to understand each other, we can be very patient with each other as we listen through the frustration to the core of the other person's meaning.  We become a team against tension and argument, and work together for clarity.  

Also, my experience with teen boys says they are really sensitive and will change what they say because they don't want to hurt anyone or be forced to commit to their line of thinking.  They are developing confidence and need a lot of space to speak before they think and not be required to commit to or answer for all the things they say.  It is so important to let them learn to talk instead of demanding they communicate clearly.  The clarity will come with security, practice, and growth.  Listen through his words.  The truth is in there, and most of the time, he probably isn't even talking about what is actually coming out of his mouth.  

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I think most teenagers would interpret "whatever" coming from a parent as a very rude dismissal of what they said.

 

The suggestion was made by a clinical psych.

and for some people - especially teens, there are no "good" responses.  anything you say, will make them angry.

[Harriet Vane]

55 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

The suggestion was made by a clinical psych.

and for some people - especially teens, there are no "good" responses.  anything you say, will make them angry.

It's true that there are often no good responses. 

I would agree, though, that "whatever" will escalate things. I don't know when the clinical psych suggested it, but it's a word that has evolved to be understood as dismissive and rude currently. The idea with the non-response to an agitated teen is to find something neutral and non-reactive (which is what I think you were driving at with your recommendation). I'd personally veer towards, "Okay" or "I hear you" or a generic "Mm" or something along those lines.

[heartlikealion]

I know the psych from YouTube. He speaks so gently that his “whatever” may not sound as dismissive as the average person. I agree, that at least for me, saying whatever could easily do the opposite of de-escalating a tense conversation. 

[Spryte]

Finding a neutral response is helpful. It was absolutely liberating, here. I think the key is finding the phrase(s) that work for you. Even if a clinical psych makes a blanket recommendation about one, it needs to be the right phrase *for you* and your person. I don’t know any YouTube docs, but a good clinical psych wouldn’t be rigid about this and would want you to tailor this to your needs — I’m sure the doc mentioned would be the same. You could ask your own therapist to help you come up with one, or try some listed here till you hit the right one. It may take a few tries, and what will work for your son will be different from the one that works for X. FWIW, in my region to respond with “whatever” is seen as dismissive, eye-rolling, and rude. That may be regional, but it would be like throwing down a gauntlet here. 

For dealing with a mentally ill co-parent, DH and I had to try a few options. The one we landed on was something like, “you may be right.” Not “you are right.” And then we moved the conversation along fast. This worked for us, as a tool to move the conversation on past whatever sticky point was being argued in circles and move toward planning or whatever communication was actually needed. We worked through options we came up with in therapy, and with our support group — which was run by a therapist. Sometimes it was a short, “you may be right” sometimes it was “you may be right about that, however we are going to … “ But we quickly learned that with our co-parent, less was more. Less words. We let her talk and responded with our short phrases, and then we did not say more — and that is how we were able to coexist more or less peacefully. X calls about co-sleeping, you listen, ok, you may be right, then hang up and do what you’re going to do. “I’ll keep that in mind” was another one.

For DS, I think some variation of “OK” would probably work. Maybe come up with a few phrases to keep in your back pocket and just cycle through them.

Mostly I wanted to respond and say that I understand the feeling that he’s calling and texting Dad from your home, and doesn’t call/text you when at Dad’s. We were there, too, with the feeling of a spy, and the alienation. Just keep doing your best, and keep at it. It can feel like it’s all for nothing, but DS will know that you are consistent. I don’t know what’s in your future, but for us — DSS needed that consistency, even when he didn’t like it. He’s 30 now, and the mentally ill coparent is gone. He knows he has us, that we were always consistent, that we are dependable, and he can look back and see more of what happened now, and heal. It’s a long road, for all of us, but we are walking it together. It really is a long game that you are playing.

Hang in there.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Spryte

[scholastica]

I would okay. Most people receive that as assent or agreement. “I see your meaning” or “I understand your thoughts”. Followed with a “Thank you for sharing.” 

[heartlikealion]

The few times that ds and I went to group therapy this calendar year we were instructed to do "thank you for sharing" to each other. I am not in any therapy now with him or without. I recently had to cancel my own therapy as I cannot afford it. I'm living paycheck to paycheck and my new rental has higher utilities (but working A/C so I can't complain much). If I were to call and make a group appointment with him (which he would hate) I would be responsible for the entirety of the bill as the new settlement says that the parent that schedules the mental health appointments is responsible for the cost. Ugh. 

[scholastica]

2 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

The few times that ds and I went to group therapy this calendar year we were instructed to do "thank you for sharing" to each other. I am not in any therapy now with him or without. I recently had to cancel my own therapy as I cannot afford it. I'm living paycheck to paycheck and my new rental has higher utilities (but working A/C so I can't complain much). If I were to call and make a group appointment with him (which he would hate) I would be responsible for the entirety of the bill as the new settlement says that the parent that schedules the mental health appointments is responsible for the cost. Ugh. 

I am so sorry for all you’ve been through the past 15 years. It’s been a long hard road.

[heartlikealion]

1 minute ago, scholastica said:

I am so sorry for all you’ve been through the past 15 years. It’s been a long hard road.

I'm not sure if that was a suggestion of what to say to him or that comment was for me lol. Ds is 14 and I got married to his dad in 2008. 

[scholastica]

7 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I'm not sure if that was a suggestion of what to say to him or that comment was for me lol. Ds is 14 and I got married to his dad in 2008. 

It was for you. Seeing your posts over the years and how hard you have tried to do everything to make your family and married life work despite your ex’s behavior, I just feel like you’ve been through a lot.

[Spryte]

43 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

The few times that ds and I went to group therapy this calendar year we were instructed to do "thank you for sharing" to each other. I am not in any therapy now with him or without. I recently had to cancel my own therapy as I cannot afford it. I'm living paycheck to paycheck and my new rental has higher utilities (but working A/C so I can't complain much). If I were to call and make a group appointment with him (which he would hate) I would be responsible for the entirety of the bill as the new settlement says that the parent that schedules the mental health appointments is responsible for the cost. Ugh. 

I don’t know if this will help at all, or apply to you, but maybe it’s a way to reframe things in a positive light. I know you’d prefer he be in therapy, but here’s a potential way to look at his not being in therapy as a positive, for now. Read with a grain of salt, and take what you need  from it: When we were in the midst of all the messy co-parenting it was only DH and me in therapy. Mostly me (I have been fortunate to have access to kick butt therapists when I wanted/needed them), and DH would tag along as needed. We would have liked to get DSS into therapy, and we could have forced it, but my therapist thought long and hard, and came to the conclusion that DSS’s BM would sabotage any therapy for him. Not only in a “this won’t work” way, but in the sense that he would never trust therapy again and it might sabotage any chance he’d access therapy as an adult. My therapist’s recommendation was to wait, and then he would have it as an option as an adult. And … it worked. Starting at about 28, DSS has been going to therapy. Again, I don’t know all the diagnoses that his BM had, but she was mentally ill so there was a lot at play. She was very manipulative, and our interactions with her often come to mind when you post about interacting with your ex, heart.

I am a huge proponent of therapy, so please, I hope no one takes this as a blanket statement that it’s ok for kids not to go to therapy when they need it. Therapy rocks. But there are times when we can’t use it, or there’s an unsupportive parent in the picture who might sabotage it, and that doesn’t spell the end of the world. OP, your boy will have the opportunity as an adult, to get therapy if he needs it, and maybe he won’t have the baggage of hearing his father whisper poison in his ears while he does so.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Spryte

[heartlikealion]

Thank you. I sometimes think it's more society than myself that makes me feel bad about him not being in therapy. Like (some) outsiders would think, "duh he needs to be in therapy" and like I'm a bad mom for not pushing it. But then there are people like my lawyer that said, "well it wasn't helping, was it?" and I had mixed feelings from "we didn't give it enough time" to "no, it wasn't really going to help under the circumstances." I do know people on the other extreme of the spectrum that thinks therapy is just a bad idea all together. From therapy is for crazy people (that's literally the vibe I got) to talk therapy isn't a good way to deal with things (my dad's view). 

So it does help hearing that perspective. Thank you. 

I did mention my kids and circumstances in therapy, but the therapist's goals were leaning toward me and IFS (part work, hard to explain) so I don't feel like I really lost that much concerning my relationship with him by discontinuing therapy. 

I get overwhelmed easily and it's been nice to take a break from therapy homework. I still have to paint around kitchen cabinets in my kitchen (not my fault, but landlord added new cabinet doors and now nothing matches), type up my before marriage notes for my annulment and hunt down my baptismal certificate for it, and do side jobs when they come open (Labor Day weekend I'm house/dog sitting). And I'm working on a fitness goal (down 17 lbs). 

[JennyD]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:06 AM, heartlikealion said:

Xh spanked ds recently.

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

Ds is 14

 

On 8/29/2022 at 11:59 AM, heartlikealion said:

during some interaction I got loud so ds says I abused her and I’m mean.

Your poor DS.  I am so sorry for what your family is going through, OP.

[freesia]

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

I don’t know if this will help at all, or apply to you, but maybe it’s a way to reframe things in a positive light. I know you’d prefer he be in therapy, but here’s a potential way to look at his not being in therapy as a positive, for now. Read with a grain of salt, and take what you need  from it: When we were in the midst of all the messy co-parenting it was only DH and me in therapy. Mostly me (I have been fortunate to have access to kick butt therapists when I wanted/needed them), and DH would tag along as needed. We would have liked to get DSS into therapy, and we could have forced it, but my therapist thought long and hard, and came to the conclusion that DSS’s BM would sabotage any therapy for him. Not only in a “this won’t work” way, but in the sense that he would never trust therapy again and it might sabotage any chance he’d access therapy as an adult. My therapist’s recommendation was to wait, and then he would have it as an option as an adult. And … it worked. Starting at about 28, DSS has been going to therapy. Again, I don’t know all the diagnoses that his BM had, but she was mentally ill so there was a lot at play. She was very manipulative, and our interactions with her often come to mind when you post about interacting with your ex, heart.

I am a huge proponent of therapy, so please, I hope no one takes this as a blanket statement that it’s ok for kids not to go to therapy when they need it. Therapy rocks. But there are times when we can’t use it, or there’s an unsupportive parent in the picture who might sabotage it, and that doesn’t spell the end of the world. OP, your boy will have the opportunity as an adult, to get therapy if he needs it, and maybe he won’t have the baggage of hearing his father whisper poison in his ears while he does so.

 

I agree with this. We also did not force a dc to go to therapy. I did instead. That dc, now an adult, just did some therapy this summer on their own. They continued to see it as an option both bc I went and treated it as normal and bc they didn’t have bad associations with it. Dc also had an outside narcissist influence who was telling them that therapy wouldn’t work bc their parents were the problem. 

[ktgrok]

On 8/29/2022 at 1:22 PM, maize said:

I would take anything your son says when angry with an entire cupful of salt. When people are angry, they say things they know will be hurtful because, in the moment, they want to cause hurt.

It doesn't mean those are the things they think and feel most of the time.

Even adult humans behave in illogical and relationship-damaging ways when under the influence of strong emotions. Immature humans do too.

Also, teens in the BEST of circumstances can be a donkey's rear end for no reason what soever. So know this is normal and he may outgrow it. 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

@heartlikealion  For what it is worth, I think you're doing a good job handling a really tough situation. No one would navigate it perfectly so don't expect that of yourself either. For me, I know that I know that I know that the best thing to do with certain people is to ignore them or keep the reaction to the minimum. I will say "don't feed it". But still, if they know how to get to you, know which buttons to push, and are just really big jerks sometimes (that you care about), it can be so much easier said than done. I'm still learning this all the time. I try, sometimes I succeed but sometimes I bust and I have to try to do better next time. Hang in there (((hugs))). 

[heartlikealion]

On 8/29/2022 at 1:06 AM, heartlikealion said:

A few days ago Xh asked me to watch the kids next weekend so he could attend a conference. I said sure. Then he said I would have them Labor Day, too (which I didn’t expect). Then today called me and said he decided to skip the conference and take the kids to TX over the weekend. Nothing makes sense. That’s 7 hours away and I’d assume at least one night in a hotel. Ds said he knew Saturday and I said why didn’t you tell me? He said because it’s none of my business (I explained why it’s my business). It do realize it’s not ds’ job to update me, though. His dad could have easily told me on Sat. 

And now it makes sense... xh told me tonight about their trip. Apparently they stayed with a female friend and her son. I inquired if I knew this person (no) and if she was xh's girlfriend. Bingo. He said she is and they are going back to visit her the next weekend he has the kids. WTF. No my circus, not my monkeys yeah yeah I know. And there's more, but I'll refrain from going into all that til I see what actually plays out. 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

And now it makes sense... xh told me tonight about their trip. Apparently they stayed with a female friend and her son. I inquired if I knew this person (no) and if she was xh's girlfriend. Bingo. He said she is and they are going back to visit her the next weekend he has the kids. WTF. No my circus, not my monkeys yeah yeah I know. And there's more, but I'll refrain from going into all that til I see what actually plays out. 

Is that allowed by your custody agreement? Most people that I know have clauses saying no overnights with dating partners until a new marriage happens.   You don’t have to try to enforce it but I would check your paperwork.  

[heartlikealion]

22 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Is that allowed by your custody agreement? Most people that I know have clauses saying no overnights with dating partners until a new marriage happens.   You don’t have to try to enforce it but I would check your paperwork.  

No it’s not in there. And there’s just a small note that we must give notice if taking kids out of state, which he did. My lawyer friend says there’s really nothing I can do about her moving in, either (which is what I strongly suspect will happen reading between the lines… but it’s just a hunch). 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

No it’s not in there. And there’s just a small note that we must give notice if taking kids out of state, which he did. My lawyer friend says there’s really nothing I can do about her moving in, either (which is what I strongly suspect will happen reading between the lines… but it’s just a hunch). 

Well, I hope for her sake she doesn't get knocked up, so she can make a clean break when she's done.