Shooting at a Texas elementary school

[Pawz4me]

24 minutes ago, bolt. said:

In the time-honoured ways of gossip everywhere, things 'become' believable even when they start as simple speculation. It's like the game "telephone"

All one person has to say would be something like, "I wonder if the SRO was at the door. Did anyone see them? I'll bet they probably did something heroic." And the next person would say, "I bet the SRO tried to stop the shooter. Too bad they got past them." And the next person would say, "I heard the shooter got past the SRO, but they tried to stop him, were they armed? I bet that means they used their gun." And the next person would say...

Nobody needs to actively 'make up a story' for these things to shift in the telling. It's super common for rumors to transition from "I wonder if..." to "I heard somebody did..."

In a situation like this I don't think it's a terribly high expectation that the police spokesperson should have his or her facts right. I haven't watched all the pressers. Maybe whomever was speaking for the police hedged, saying something like "This is what we know (or think) happened; as is usually the case in situations such as this we may need to clarify some things as we get a better understanding of the timeline and of what actually happened" or something similar. That's a pretty standard disclaimer. Was it given? I'm even willing to give this PD a little more leeway given their small size. I'm guessing they don't have the payroll, and probably not the need, for a formal spokesperson/media relations type position. But so much of what they've said doesn't seem to be simply misinformation based on their best info at the time, but rather blatant lying in order to do a CYA thing.

I think officials should be held to a higher standard as far as the information they give out than the ladies quilting club, you know?

Edited May 27, 2022 by Pawz4me

[WildflowerMom]

So at 12:16pm, they knew there were multiple children ALIVE inside the classroom with numerous dead bodies and they waited until 12:50pm to enter the room with a key??

I can't even say what would be going through my head right now if I'd just lost my kid.  

[chiguirre]

A NYT reporter has posted the log of 911 calls. It's horrifying. 12:47!!!!!

 

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

In a situation like this I don't think it's a terribly high expectation that the police spokesperson should have has his or her facts right. I haven't watched all the pressers. Maybe whomever was speaking for the police hedged, saying something like "This is what we know (or think) happened; as is usually the case in situations such as this we may need to clarify some things as we get a better understanding of the timeline and of what actually happened" or something similar. That's a pretty standard disclaimer. Was it given? I'm even willing to give this PD a little more leeway given their small size. I'm guessing they don't have the payroll, and probably not the need, for a formal spokesperson/media relations type position. But so much of what they've said doesn't seem to be simply misinformation based on their best info at the time, but rather blatant lying in order to do a CYA thing.

I think officials should be held to a higher standard as far as the information they give out than the ladies quilting club, you know?

With everything that’s come out I firmly believe they were attempting CYA.  They weren’t prepared for National news coverage making that impossible. They screwed up in the highest order.  

[Farrar]

27 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have no anger about him being off premises.  I'm concerned that they initially LIED and said that he engaged the shooter and called him a hero.  That's not just confusion about what went on in a chaotic situation, which would be completely understandable.  That is MAKING UP A STORY.  

Honestly, they seem so inept that it may not have even been intentional lying. I can totally believe it was part of their inept chaos. "Hey, where's the SRO Bill?" "Oh, Bill, he's gone now." Turns to give briefing, "The SRO was a hero who engaged the shooter..."

So either they lied. Or things were next level chaotic. And not just briefly, but for HOURS. And either is really bad.

[chiguirre]

9 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 I'm even willing to give this PD a little more leeway given their small size. I'm guessing they don't have the payroll, and probably not the need, for a formal spokesperson/media relations type position.

The worst press conference was given by a DPS Spokesman. The Department of Public Safety is the agency that oversees the Texas Rangers and the Highway Patrol (and a bunch of other stuff that's not relevant to the Uvalde shooting.)

Edited May 27, 2022 by chiguirre

[PinkTulip]

From the New York Times: 

When specially equipped federal immigration agents arrived at the elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday, the local police at the scene would not allow them to go after the gunman who had opened fire on students inside the school, according to two officials briefed on the situation.

The agents from Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrived at some point between 12 p.m. and 12:10 p.m., according to the officials — far earlier than previously known. But they did not breach the adjoining classrooms of the school where the gunman had locked himself in until a little before 1 p.m. Members of the federal tactical team killed the gunman.

 

I have no words. 

[Farrar]

Oh. I think they said the quiet part loud.

Police slow to engage with gunman because "they could've been shot" official says.

[Farrar]

I cannot believe a bunch of cowardly local police made me LIKE the border patrol. Border patrol are the worst. But at least they refused to stand by for long after the locals refused to go in and stop this guy while 4th graders were literally on the phone with 911 begging them to send the police.

[Ting Tang]

Apparently, a few years ago, two younger teens plotted to bomb and then shoot children in the same community.  They were arrested and taken to a juvenile facility.  I am not sure that has been mentioned in this thread.  The cases are not linked.  

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18689505/uvalde-texas-second-school-shooting-plot-columbine

 

[TechWife]

I just cannot. Whatever in the world made them think that children weren’t at risk when they KNEW children were in the school and they KNEW the shooter was in the school. I can’t even. 
 

“Most of the time the gunman was at the school, Mr. McCraw explained, he was inside the classrooms where nearly all of the killing took place, while as many as 19 police officers waited outside in the school hallway. Multiple people in the classrooms, including at least two students, called 911 over that horrifying stretch, begging for police. But apparently believing that the suspect had barricaded himself in the classroom and that “there were no kids at risk,” the police did not enter the classroom until 12:50 p.m., 78 minutes after the shooter walked inside.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/27/us/texas-school-shooting

[1234]

1 minute ago, TechWife said:

I just cannot. Whatever in the world made them think that children weren’t at risk when they KNEW children were in the school and they KNEW the shooter was in the school. I can’t even. 
 

“Most of the time the gunman was at the school, Mr. McCraw explained, he was inside the classrooms where nearly all of the killing took place, while as many as 19 police officers waited outside in the school hallway. Multiple people in the classrooms, including at least two students, called 911 over that horrifying stretch, begging for police. But apparently believing that the suspect had barricaded himself in the classroom and that “there were no kids at risk,” the police did not enter the classroom until 12:50 p.m., 78 minutes after the shooter walked inside.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/27/us/texas-school-shooting

I thought they already admitted that was their thinking because they assumed all the kids in that room were killed immediately and apparently they assumed he would just stay there.

It makes no sense because of the ongoing gunfire and the 911 calls from inside. Every time I think their story can’t get worse it does though.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

Thank you, mo5.  That's very helpful!  

no SRO    
no locked doors
18yo can't drink alcohol but buys 2 weapons of mass destruction within minutes 
Buys 375 rounds and no one bats an eye   
police wait for 40+ minutes for... what?  
There's multiple issues here.    

And if we required a reference check from multiple people, like other countries, he likely would never have bought a single gun. He was known to be aggressive, had behavior problems, etc. But unless you already committed a felony, hey, have whatever you want, is our standard. Sigh. 

2 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

The ironic thing is that the nobody more tightly regulates firearms than the US military. Dh is retired military. Every. Single. Gun. is carefully accounted for on a base, gets signed in, gets signed out. Extremely stringent restrictions on who can carry on base.

And these are trained soldiers.

It's all so effing ridiculous.

This. That we think civilians need less regulation of firearms than the military is pretty insane. 

16 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I cannot believe a bunch of cowardly local police made me LIKE the border patrol. Border patrol are the worst. But at least they refused to stand by for long after the locals refused to go in and stop this guy while 4th graders were literally on the phone with 911 begging them to send the police.

I had that same thought. 

7 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I thought they already admitted that was their thinking because they assumed all the kids in that room were killed immediately and apparently they assumed he would just stay there.

It makes no sense because of the ongoing gunfire and the 911 calls from inside. Every time I think their story can’t get worse it does though.

Here is the issue - even if they assumed all kids were SHOT (which, given 911 calls they shouldn't have - dead kids don't dial 911), they didn't know they were DEAD. They were likely bleeding out, and the police knew they were shot, and 19 of them didn't feel brave enough to take on one lone gunman in order to save those kids. 

I hope every single one is fired and never allowed near another weapon. If you are not going to use one when actually confronted with an armed threat,  you don't get one.

[WildflowerMom]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

And if we required a reference check from multiple people, like other countries, he likely would never have bought a single gun. He was known to be aggressive, had behavior problems, etc. But unless you already committed a felony, hey, have whatever you want, is our standard. Sigh. 

 

Exactly.   And also, we'd probably prevent a lot of domestic violence shootings, too.  If they could ask the gun buyer's boss, wife, neighbor, whoever, about his/her disposition, think of how many people might say, 'I wouldn't give a gun to that guy/girl.'   Such a simple idea and it could have enormous impact.    Just like a long waiting period.   But, nope. 

[Idalou]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

My husband said he was surprised that in Texas, where so many have guns, that a parent didn't end up firing on the officers holding them back. 

And have 50+ cops turn their guns and fire into the crowd of frantic parents? Because that they would have no qualm about doing, and these locals are well aware that type behavior is perfectly possible.

[1234]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

Here is the issue - even if they assumed all kids were SHOT (which, given 911 calls they shouldn't have - dead kids don't dial 911), they didn't know they were DEAD. They were likely bleeding out, and the police knew they were shot, and 19 of them didn't feel brave enough to take on one lone gunman in order to save those kids. 

I hope every single one is fired and never allowed near another weapon. If you are not going to use one when actually confronted with an armed threat,  you don't get one.

Oh, I agree. I honestly don’t believe anything they say at this point because it just feels like all they’re doing now is trying to cover they assess.

The officers there that day are worse than cowards because they even prevented those who showed up ready to engage and do their jobs from saving some of those kids. None of it makes sense. 

[Idalou]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

It's just teachers we expect that of.  And teachers have shown, over and over, that we are willing to do so.  

I would also be very surprised if there weren't teachers in that building, whose own children were in other rooms, and who made the choice to stay with their students to try their hardest to protect them.  

 

There was one who texted her husband for help. He was either a retired or off duty officer , I can't remember. She stayed locked in her classroom, their child was hiding in a bathroom. The article said he went in tbe back of the school and got them out.

[bolt.]

1 minute ago, WildflowerMom said:

Exactly.   And also, we'd probably prevent a lot of domestic violence shootings, too.  If they could ask the gun buyer's boss, wife, neighbor, whoever, about his/her disposition, think of how many people might say, 'I wouldn't give a gun to that guy/girl.'   Such a simple idea and it could have enormous impact.    Just like a long waiting period.   But, nope. 

In Canada, the application for the firearms license must be *signed* by your current "conjugal partner" (and the one previous to that partner if relevant) -- for precisely that reason. That's in addition to the character references you provide according to your own choice.

I think it should have "or mother" if you don't have any "conjugal partner(s)".

[WildflowerMom]

19 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I thought they already admitted that was their thinking because they assumed all the kids in that room were killed immediately and apparently they assumed he would just stay there.

It makes no sense because of the ongoing gunfire and the 911 calls from inside. Every time I think their story can’t get worse it does though.

That's where I'm at, too.   I was so sad the last couple days and don't get me wrong, I think we're all beyond sad for those victims (I'm also including as victims the ones who lived AND HAD TO SIT IN THE CLASSROOM WITH THEIR DEAD FRIENDS FOR 40+ MINUTES), but now, I'm livid, like just so pissed off, ready to take somebody on.  

[Corraleno]

So far in 2022, the number of children who have died in school shootings (24) is higher than the number of cops who have been shot and killed in the line of duty (20). 

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, Idalou said:

And have 50+ cops turn their guns and fire into the crowd of frantic parents? Because that they would have no qualm about doing, and these locals are well aware that type behavior is perfectly possible.

Oh, I'm not saying it would be sane or rational or a good idea or even get them anywhere. But given how upset they were, I'm still sort of surprised. 

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, Idalou said:

There was one who texted her husband for help. He was either a retired or off duty officer , I can't remember. She stayed locked in her classroom, their child was hiding in a bathroom. The article said he went in tbe back of the school and got them out.

If that's true, that means the school STILL wasn't locked down?  I taught in a preschool where we did not have lockdown drills, but when hinky stuff went on in the "neighborhood" (defined broadly), we kept the kids outside/ no walks or playground time and someone double checked that all the exterior doors were locked.  

Which, I mean, the gunman was already inside.  But I'm so confused by this.  He stood outside for twelve minutes, shooting at a funeral home, and not only did nobody engage him, nobody checked the exterior doors on the school?  And then cops and parents were running in and grabbing their kids while there was no official police response?  

I don't really believe this, but if we really are living in a world where protect and serve is not an expectation (and @Sneezyone has excellent reasons why it might be an inappropriate expectation), I'm kinda wondering if the "abolish the police" folks may have had a point?  I don't really believe it, but I'm kinda seeing their point more.  

[JennyD]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

It's just teachers we expect that of.  And teachers have shown, over and over, that we are willing to do so.  

I would also be very surprised if there weren't teachers in that building, whose own children were in other rooms, and who made the choice to stay with their students to try their hardest to protect them.  

 

I was once in a school during a bomb scare and that is exactly what happened.  Plenty of teachers had their own children in other rooms, but every single one of them stayed with their classroom.   

 

26 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Every time I think their story can’t get worse it does though.

Yes.

[City Mouse]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

This is how it sounds to me as well. It says a teacher had propped it open (I can't even go there to think what that teacher feels) and I'm thinking maybe they locked the front door but didn't know the back one was open. There are so many heartbreaking "what if" points along the way in this, but the bottom line being that this kind of outcome shouldn't hinge on all those "what ifs" going just right. It should be that unstable bad guys can't get guns in the first place, and then we don't have to worry about having multiple layers of protection being carried out exactly right in order for kids to go to school safely.

I had an argument with my DH last night. My argument was that I don’t care if increased gun regulations won’t stop every instance of gun violence, or if the “crazy” person will then go use a knife, or explosive, or even acid attack instead which have all happened, but if this one person had not been allowed to purchase until he was 21, or if there was a 2 week waiting period for his purchase, if he hadn’t been allowed to purchase the rifles, then these kids at this school wouldn’t have died on this day.  And all the other mistakes that happened wouldn’t have been a problem. That to me is a start in the right direction. 

I hate how some people (not making comment about anyone posting here) use the all or nothing arguments against any increased regulations. 

[Ting Tang]

 

6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

If that's true, that means the school STILL wasn't locked down?  I taught in a preschool where we did not have lockdown drills, but when hinky stuff went on in the "neighborhood" (defined broadly), we kept the kids outside/ no walks or playground time and someone double checked that all the exterior doors were locked.  

Which, I mean, the gunman was already inside.  But I'm so confused by this.  He stood outside for twelve minutes, shooting at a funeral home, and not only did nobody engage him, nobody checked the exterior doors on the school?  And then cops and parents were running in and grabbing their kids while there was no official police response?  

I don't really believe this, but if we really are living in a world where protect and serve is not an expectation (and @Sneezyone has excellent reasons why it might be an inappropriate expectation), I'm kinda wondering if the "abolish the police" folks may have had a point?  I don't really believe it, but I'm kinda seeing their point more.  

And the school district hosted an active shooter training for police and officials just two months before.  I guess that wasn't enough.  😞  

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I don't really believe this, but if we really are living in a world where protect and serve is not an expectation (and @Sneezyone has excellent reasons why it might be an inappropriate expectation), I'm kinda wondering if the "abolish the police" folks may have had a point?  I don't really believe it, but I'm kinda seeing their point more.  

The Uvalde cops made the best argument I've seen yet for abolish the police.

Here's a situation that is undoubtedly the kind that needs an organized government response with trained people who will do their jobs and stop a violence bad guy. And they absolutely just didn't do it.

Would a bunch of other interventions earlier in this horrible person's life have helped prevent this? Would having a better funded school with more staff who could then maybe have a common sense reaction to a guy with a gun coming and lock the exterior doors have helped? Who the heck knows, but events like this make me ready to find out. They definitely make me want to fund more people in the school and more mental health services and more social workers and not fund the Uvalde SWAT cowards.

[WildflowerMom]

20 minutes ago, Idalou said:

There was one who texted her husband for help. He was either a retired or off duty officer , I can't remember. She stayed locked in her classroom, their child was hiding in a bathroom. The article said he went in tbe back of the school and got them out.

I read that, too.  I think he evacuated classes while he was in that area, though.  I think he had 2 other guys who covered him and he evacuated people, from what I understood.  And I believe he said he had a shotgun, his barber's shotgun because that's where he was when he got the text.  Of course, who the hell knows anymore.    
 

editing to add, I think he is border patrol.  

Edited May 27, 2022 by WildflowerMom

[Katy]

Retired cops who used to work with my dad are asking how that kid afforded a minimum of $5500 of purchases on a Wendy's salary.

The responses WRT everything else coming out... this is clearly already a bigger conspiracy theory thing than anything since 9/11.  And with redundant levels of incompetence at every level I understand it.

And if cops were using the back door to go in and get their kids out... why the hell didn't they shoot the guy then?  They weren't afraid to go past the broken door but they were afraid to kill him? How is that even possible?

[WildflowerMom]

Here's an article.  I don't know how reliable it is. 
https://nypost.com/2022/05/27/cbp-officer-jacob-albarado-runs-into-uvalde-school-with-barbers-shotgun-to-save-daughter/

[denarii]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

Retired cops who used to work with my dad are asking how that kid afforded a minimum of $5500 of purchases on a Wendy's salary.

The responses WRT everything else coming out... this is clearly already a bigger conspiracy theory thing than anything since 9/11.  And with redundant levels of incompetence at every level I understand it.

And if cops were using the back door to go in and get their kids out... why the hell didn't they shoot the guy then?  They weren't afraid to go past the broken door but they were afraid to kill him? How is that even possible?

Payday loans and credit cards are very easy to get. Especially if you are not worried about having to pay then back. 

[Farrar]

I don't know if this has been fully verified, but it's just so horrifying that there was time for a kid to do this. And that she then had to stay in the classroom, covered in her friend's blood, pretending to be dead for an hour.

Survivor of the Uvalde Massacre Played Dead

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

Retired cops who used to work with my dad are asking how that kid afforded a minimum of $5500 of purchases on a Wendy's salary.

The responses WRT everything else coming out... this is clearly already a bigger conspiracy theory thing than anything since 9/11.  And with redundant levels of incompetence at every level I understand it.

And if cops were using the back door to go in and get their kids out... why the hell didn't they shoot the guy then?  They weren't afraid to go past the broken door but they were afraid to kill him? How is that even possible?

Honestly, if he's been working for a few years and hasn't had expenses, I can totally see earning the money on a Wendy's salary, especially if he's working a decent number of hours.  My kid works like six hours a week and has made like $1600 this year.  When I was in high school, kids got jobs at 14 and made enough money to buy a used car at 16.  

[WildflowerMom]

Well if there are wings to the school, it makes me think local police had that wing/section blocked so no one could get in.    Which leads me to the question, which force has the upper hand?   I know in murders, the local group has to ask for FBI involvement.  In a school shooting, does the local group still get to make the judgment calls? 

[teachermom2834]

9 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I read that, too.  I think he evacuated classes while he was in that area, though.  I think he had 2 other guys who covered him and he evacuated people, from what I understood.  And I believe he said he had a shotgun, his barber's shotgun because that's where he was when he got the text.  Of course, who the hell knows anymore.    
 

editing to add, I think he is border patrol.  

I think I had read early on that officers were evacuating other parts of the school. Nope. It was this guy who went in for his wife and kid and evacuated others along the way. That’s what it seems like now at least. Some kids did get evacuated but it was by someone off duty. So obviously it was possible but the officers on site weren’t doing it?!?!?!? And this guy didn’t just get his own family. 

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, teachermom2834 said:

I think I had read early on that officers were evacuating other parts of the school. Nope. It was this guy who went in for his wife and kid and evacuated others along the way. That’s what it seems like now at least. Some kids did get evacuated but it was by someone off duty. So obviously it was possible but the officers on site weren’t doing it?!?!?!? And this guy didn’t just get his own family. 

And this guy wasn't even local pd.  

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Well if there are wings to the school, it makes me think local police had that wing/section blocked so no one could get in.    Which leads me to the question, which force has the upper hand?   I know in murders, the local group has to ask for FBI involvement.  In a school shooting, does the local group still get to make the judgment calls? 

Absolutely everything I've read has said that it's considered best practice for whoever is first on the scene, including if they don't have specialized training, to go in immediately. WaPo quoted a report that they said was issued after Columbine and adopted by basically everywhere that said as few as 2-5 officers - which we know there were more than on the scene. So while I'm sure they're supposed to ask for state and possibly federal involvement, it's not supposed to work that way where jurisdiction is worked out first. Now, it's possible that the Uvalde police department has different procedures than what's considered best practice everywhere. But even if they do, holy cow were they poor procedures.

[Farrar]

FTR, I doubt there's any conspiracy here. I'm sure it's just massive incompetence, cowardice, and bad systems. But it's so depressing. And I'm sure it's about to lead to a million conspiracy theories.

[Idalou]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I cannot believe a bunch of cowardly local police made me LIKE the border patrol. Border patrol are the worst. But at least they refused to stand by for long after the locals refused to go in and stop this guy while 4th graders were literally on the phone with 911 begging them to send the police.

Yes. But BP arrived between 12 and 12:10 and still waited until 1 to go in. They waited about 15 minutes after 45 minutes of begging children crying for the police

[Katy]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

FTR, I doubt there's any conspiracy here. I'm sure it's just massive incompetence, cowardice, and bad systems. But it's so depressing. And I'm sure it's about to lead to a million conspiracy theories.

I totally agree.

[ktgrok]

30 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The Uvalde cops made the best argument I've seen yet for abolish the police.

Here's a situation that is undoubtedly the kind that needs an organized government response with trained people who will do their jobs and stop a violence bad guy. And they absolutely just didn't do it.

 

Or at a minimum, to stop arming police with military style weapons. They claimed they needed them to deal with shooters who were also highly armed. But turns out they won't confront them anyway, so what do they need the guns for?

27 minutes ago, Katy said:

Retired cops who used to work with my dad are asking how that kid afforded a minimum of $5500 of purchases on a Wendy's salary.

 

Drug money? Stealing? Used grandma's debit card? Lots of ways - if one isn't limited by fully legal methods. Something this kid obviously didn't care about. 

[Katy]

If this doesn't sum it up:

 

[Idalou]

19. 19 cops standing in the hall outside the classroom. Doing nothing, impeded by the door. ( another door problem, Senator!) A janitor comes and unlocks the door. 19 cops. One cop for each dead child.

[happi duck]

I would never call 911 because I don't trust cops not to kill.  That said, I can't believe that for children in mortal danger, calling 911 was completely worthless.  Cops won't trust their training and rush in to save children?!???!  Children!

[Idalou]

4 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re the things that matter shrink, in proportion to things that ought not to

 

A society that kills its children, and also...

...maligns teachers as entitled unionizers who can't be trusted to choose developmentally appropriate picture books; and also

...maligns nurses as entitled unionizers determined to implant Soros microchips through injection..

...maligns women as too selfish to be trusted to make their own reproductive 

 

 

You forgot the part about how our teachers are called sexual groomers if they speak to their kids about their transgender classmates or their families headed by 2 moms or 2 dads

Edited May 27, 2022 by Idalou

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

My kids’ school went on lockdown today.  Apparently someone said lockdown or shooter in the hallway and it was a massive overreaction, but I feel like I’d rather have them overreact than underteaxt. 
The school did not alert us as parents but requested two ambulances as is their policy so I wound up there. Within five minutes of the call, there were the only two deputies in the village(the village PD here staffs two deputies with backup from other agencies) and one state trooper who was passing by were in the school building.  Within 12 minutes there were probably fifteen police officers in the building and more outside. They stayed locked down for 47 minutes until everything was throughly searched and it was nothing(according to the email). I had the chance to talk to the SRO who told me the policy and plan is to quickly size up the scene and the perimeter and then go in.  (My children are not at all traumatized; my daughter did have the presence of mind to borrow a cell phone and text me her location in the building and asked if i was there yet. They both didn’t really view this as anything other than normal life.) my point  is—other places have plans for active shooters in place and the plan is to go in and start securing the building.

I am hoping more and accurate information comes out, because I cannot fathom why they didn’t go in or why they needed a janitor’s key. As a paramedic, we force entry all the time and LE does it frequently too. Nobody needs keys. I’m 5’2” , 130 pounds, and kicked a door in last week(long story, it was necessary but not exactly what we’re supposed to do as EMS). I’m positive 19 policemen could have taken that door.

I read the 11 year old’s account that they were watching Lilo and Stitch when the gunman entered. .  My(almost) 10 year old DD loves that movie. I’m not sure I can ever view it the same now.

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, happi duck said:

I would never call 911 because I don't trust cops not to kill.  That said, I can't believe that for children in mortal danger, calling 911 was completely worthless.  Cops won't trust their training and rush in to save children?!???!  Children!

There are no circumstances in which you would call 911? 

[Idalou]

1 minute ago, happi duck said:

I would never call 911 because I don't trust cops not to kill.  That said, I can't believe that for children in mortal danger, calling 911 was completely worthless.  Cops won't trust their training and rush in to save children?!???!  Children!

People keep talking about how the military is ready for this but not our LEOs. Except 20-22 percent of our police force are ex-military, as of 2019. It would be interesting to know what percentage of this bunch were former members.

[Harriet Vane]

6 minutes ago, happi duck said:

I would never call 911 because I don't trust cops not to kill.  That said, I can't believe that for children in mortal danger, calling 911 was completely worthless.  Cops won't trust their training and rush in to save children?!???!  Children!

When we lived in a poverty-stricken, high-crime neighborhood in Chicago, calling the cops was almost completely useless. They either didn't come, or they'd drive down the block, which has zero effect at all on domestic violence. Even drunks can hide for the twenty seconds it takes for the squad car to roll on by.

 

Edited to add: And lest anyone think I am anti-cop, I'm actually not. A very dear friend of ours worked for 25 years as a law enforcement officer. Our friend was on a SWAT team that dealt with active shooter situations. We have often said over the years that we wish all the police could be like our friend--principled, brave, a true believer in his duty to protect, and very kind.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Harriet Vane

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

There are no circumstances in which you would call 911? 

There are definitely circumstances in which I would and have called 911, but I have always thought about it for a minute to decide if it was a situation in which 1) it was likely to result in police overreaction and death, and 2) if lives are already on the line.  

Our local police have always been competent and professional in their interactions with me, but I've seen neighborhood children of color be absolutely terrified and all drop everything in their hands and raise their hands over their heads when a police car drove down the street, so my bar for calling is higher than it used to be.  

[Idalou]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

In a situation like this I don't think it's a terribly high expectation that the police spokesperson should have his or her facts right. I haven't watched all the pressers. Maybe whomever was speaking for the police hedged, saying something like "This is what we know (or think) happened; as is usually the case in situations such as this we may need to clarify some things as we get a better understanding of the timeline and of what actually happened" or something similar. That's a pretty standard disclaimer. Was it given? I'm even willing to give this PD a little more leeway given their small size. I'm guessing they don't have the payroll, and probably not the need, for a formal spokesperson/media relations type position. But so much of what they've said doesn't seem to be simply misinformation based on their best info at the time, but rather blatant lying in order to do a CYA thing.

I think officials should be held to a higher standard as far as the information they give out than the ladies quilting club, you know?

I think they lied to cover incompetence because they can. How often do officers or police departments get in trouble for lying or cover ups? How often do they even have their stories deconstructed and analyzed?  That's why they're so pathetic when trying to make up stories, because that's not a skill they've ever needed-- we have always, until very very recently given them the benefit of the doubt.

Do we really think any of them will face consequences? I do not.