Cursive Confusion for a rising 2nd Grader

[Ting Tang]

My daughter learned to write in cursive in Kindergarten using the Abeka curriculum, which we continued into 1st grade.  She has really lovely handwriting for her age, but I think she would benefit from continued instruction to maintain it.

However, I sold our 2nd grade Abeka materials I used with her brother, and so I am pretty certain we are switching to Memoria Press and MCT.

The issue I have is many curriculums do not use the same cursive font as Abeka.  Rod & Staff and Pentime are similar, though not exact.  And even with those, 2nd grade is a transition year from manuscript to cursive.  Abeka gradually reduces the paper lines/size through the grades.  But when I look at spelling curriculums and copywork curriculums from Memoria Press, they are in the simpler type of cursive.  I don't want to confuse her.  I don't want her to switch.  

Am I overthinking this?  She said it might confuse her, but I don't really know, lol.

I've thought about just buying her the Abeka cursive workbook for 2nd grade, even though I won't have the lesson plans---it'd be easy for me to teach.  I could just skip the copywork books MP uses and come up with something else.  Has anyone else had this problem?

 

[Dianthus]

I don't care for print cursive hybrid, which I believe MP is? Have you looked at LOE Rhythm of handwriting? Not as frilly as Abeka and a manuscript style Q, but overall more traditional cursive.

I purchased the LOE cursive font and actually made my own copy books for MP this past year. I just found a sample with the table of contents and created all the lessons. It cost me quite a bit to print and bind the 2 books at OfficeMax. I think around $60.

But, if I were you, I'd probably just get the Abeka handwriting for consistency for your dd.

[Ting Tang]

20 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I don't care for print cursive hybrid, which I believe MP is? Have you looked at LOE Rhythm of handwriting? Not as frilly as Abeka and a manuscript style Q, but overall more traditional cursive.

I purchased the LOE cursive font and actually made my own copy books for MP this past year. I just found a sample with the table of contents and created all the lessons. It cost me quite a bit to print and bind the 2 books at OfficeMax. I think around $60.

But, if I were you, I'd probably just get the Abeka handwriting for consistency for your dd.

Thank you! I think I might just buy the Abeka workbook. I asked on the MP forum, and the representative said most kids individualize their cursive in middle school anyway. My daughter said it might confuse her, so I do think we will skip the cursive copy books and try our own, too, or something with regular print she can then write in cursive. I guess this is one potential option. Still haven’t 100% decided, lol. 

[Ellie]

If she writes fluently in cursive, you might not need more *instruction.* She would just need to write more. All of her written work (which might not be much, considering her age) should be in cursive, until cursive is second nature, and beyond.

[Ting Tang]

15 minutes ago, Ellie said:

If she writes fluently in cursive, you might not need more *instruction.* She would just need to write more. All of her written work (which might not be much, considering her age) should be in cursive, until cursive is second nature, and beyond.

I thought about that, too.  I am just struggling to put together Language Arts that comes together nicely.  I am probably overthinking all of this, lol.

[mathmarm]

As a family that also places a strong emphasis on handwriting in the elementary years, are you familiar specifically with A Beka's Handwriting track? It starts with the Writing with Phonics series?

Cursive Writing with Phonics K4
Cursive Writing with Phonics K5
Cursive Writing with Phonics 1
Cursive Writing with Phonics 2 This was followed up with the discontinued
Cursive Writing with Phonics 3  (discontinued) and then with
Penmanship Mastery I
Penmanship Mastery II

We're not Christian so we don't use A Beka products, but we couldn't find anything as good as A Beka for cursive.
We used Kumon Cursive books (there are only 2 and they aren't nearly as complete) but we used that font and hacked together our own secular version of continuous cursive instruction for our children.

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, mathmarm said:

As a family that also places a strong emphasis on handwriting in the elementary years, are you familiar specifically with A Beka's Handwriting track? It starts with the Writing with Phonics series?

Cursive Writing with Phonics K4
Cursive Writing with Phonics K5
Cursive Writing with Phonics 1
Cursive Writing with Phonics 2 This was followed up with the discontinued
Cursive Writing with Phonics 3  (discontinued) and then with
Penmanship Mastery I
Penmanship Mastery II

We're not Christian so we don't use A Beka products, but we couldn't find anything as good as A Beka for cursive.
We used Kumon Cursive books (there are only 2 and they aren't nearly as complete) but we used that font and hacked together our own secular version of continuous cursive instruction for our children.

That is where we are coming from.  🙂  But....  I sold all of our Abeka grade 2 curriculum from her brother, and I didn't want to re-buy the lesson plans. Then I started getting worried if she just does the Abeka cursive workbook with their phonics, it might not align with another phonics program.  May I ask what you did for the rest of language arts, using the Abeka cursive?  I've been considering Memoria Press and Cottage Press along with the MCT Poodle books.  (It just feels like when it comes to these lower grades, it's hard to piece together programs.)

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Zoo Keeper]

You do *not* need lesson plans to continue with Abeka cursive... just buy the 2nd grade book (linked in the post above ^) and do a page a day. 

Zaner-Bloser's font is also very similar to Abeka's cursive.  This is a freebie from their website, but it gives you an idea of what the font looks like... https://media.zaner-bloser.com/handwriting/pdfs/ZB_HW_Cursive_Practice_Package.pdf

Or you could use this free lined paper, and make your own copywork based off the the books you are reading (a la Charlotte Mason) .... https://www.zaner-bloser.com/handwriting/zaner-bloser-handwriting/free-resources.php

or Evan Moor's traditional cursive font is also close to Abeka's cursive... https://www.evan-moor.com/daily-handwriting-practice-traditional-cursive-grades-k-6-teacher's-edition-print

ETA-- just saw your comment about use different phonics program... none of my children used Abeka phonics to learn to read, but (most) all have learned cursive with Abeka (and the other options I liked above) and it was not a problem at all. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Zoo Keeper

[Ting Tang]

41 minutes ago, Zoo Keeper said:

You do *not* need lesson plans to continue with Abeka cursive... just buy the 2nd grade book (linked in the post above ^) and do a page a day. 

Zaner-Bloser's font is also very similar to Abeka's cursive.  This is a freebie from their website, but it gives you an idea of what the font looks like... https://media.zaner-bloser.com/handwriting/pdfs/ZB_HW_Cursive_Practice_Package.pdf

Or you could use this free lined paper, and make your own copywork based off the the books you are reading (a la Charlotte Mason) .... https://www.zaner-bloser.com/handwriting/zaner-bloser-handwriting/free-resources.php

or Evan Moor's traditional cursive font is also close to Abeka's cursive... https://www.evan-moor.com/daily-handwriting-practice-traditional-cursive-grades-k-6-teacher's-edition-print

ETA-- just saw your comment about use different phonics program... none of my children used Abeka phonics to learn to read, but (most) all have learned cursive with Abeka (and the other options I liked above) and it was not a problem at all. 

Thank you so very much!  I am going to check out these other resources.  Or possibly just buy the Abeka cursive book and be done with it, LOL.  I wouldn't mind also using Abeka's phonics resources for review this next year, either, but then I feel like things are disjointed....unless I go with Cottage Press and MCT and use those together, lol.  I also don't quite get the spelling thing with CM in 2nd grade.  

[Clarita]

Is it possible to just rewrite the copy work in the cursive you prefer? I know some curriculum let you print off extra paper with their line spacing or get the line spacing and make it yourself (use a computer or make by hand and make copies). Then you can use the phonics/language arts curriculum you want to use and still have her continue with the Abeka cursive. 

That could also be too much work, because what do I know. The eldest still on there are spaces between words and accepting work in a mix of capital/lower case letters not in the correct spots.

[Ellie]

29 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you so very much!  I am going to check out these other resources.  Or possibly just buy the Abeka cursive book and be done with it, LOL.  I wouldn't mind also using Abeka's phonics resources for review this next year, either, but then I feel like things are disjointed....unless I go with Cottage Press and MCT and use those together, lol.  I also don't quite get the spelling thing with CM in 2nd grade.  

Well, you could do Spalding, which would be a complete "LA" course for a 7yo (or an 8yo, maybe a 9yo). It has penmanship, spelling, reading, and writing in one fell swoop. It could do grammar, but most people like to change things up for some English components. 🙂

If you've read my previous comments about Spalding (and Hunter's), you want the **fourth edition* of Writing Road to Reading, which is the manual for the Spalding Method. With that and a set of phonogram cards, and a library card, you're good to go.

[mathmarm]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

That is where we are coming from.  🙂  But....  I sold all of our Abeka grade 2 curriculum from her brother, and I didn't want to re-buy the lesson plans. Then I started getting worried if she just does the Abeka cursive workbook with their phonics, it might not align with another phonics program.

I never even considered purchasing the rest of A Beka, I only considered their Cursive because they were the only publisher I could find that started cursive in Kindergarten.

Since you used to own it, why do you feel that you need all the lesson plans to do A Beka cursive? Why not just...use the Cursive book according to your judgement? That might be 15 minutes a day or 2 pages a day or whatever makes sense for your home school.

I wouldn't worry about the phonics aligning perfectly. Fortunately all phonics are going to be consistent so she's going to eventually learn all her sounds and sound combinations anyway.

Quote

  May I ask what you did for the rest of language arts, using the Abeka cursive?  I've been considering Memoria Press and Cottage Press along with the MCT Poodle books.  (It just feels like when it comes to these lower grades, it's hard to piece together programs.)

We did not use A Beka because it's Christian and there was no way to filter/censor the religious content due to the nature of the workbooks/subject. However we were sorely tempted too because A Beka was the only publisher I could find that taught cursive starting in Kindergarten.

Before they're fluent readers and writers, the only ELA skills my kids work on are phonetic reading and penmanship. We used the Kumon books (but any book that teaches by letter formation will work) and wove in extra work for reinforcement.

To get their handwriting fluent, we have them

• write missing letters to complete words
• write words from dictation.
• drill handwriting phonics-combos
• drill handwriting high frequence words
• copy
  • words
  • phrases
  • sentences and
  • passages

that relate to whatever we're learning about

Also, while they're doing this we monitor for

• pencil grip
• correct
  • formation
  • spacing
  • sizing
  • alignment
• sloppy effort and have them re-do poor work

and keep it up for about 4 years

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by mathmarm
inserting a phrase

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

Is it possible to just rewrite the copy work in the cursive you prefer? I know some curriculum let you print off extra paper with their line spacing or get the line spacing and make it yourself (use a computer or make by hand and make copies). Then you can use the phonics/language arts curriculum you want to use and still have her continue with the Abeka cursive. 

That could also be too much work, because what do I know. The eldest still on there are spaces between words and accepting work in a mix of capital/lower case letters not in the correct spots.

My older two do the same!  Maybe that is why I am so concerned.  The less work for me in terms of prep, the better, lol.  But that is an option. 🙂

[Ting Tang]

49 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Well, you could do Spalding, which would be a complete "LA" course for a 7yo (or an 8yo, maybe a 9yo). It has penmanship, spelling, reading, and writing in one fell swoop. It could do grammar, but most people like to change things up for some English components. 🙂

If you've read my previous comments about Spalding (and Hunter's), you want the **fourth edition* of Writing Road to Reading, which is the manual for the Spalding Method. With that and a set of phonogram cards, and a library card, you're good to go.

I think the Cottage Press LA I am looking at recommends this, but I couldn't figure it out.  The book shown looked like a resource for the teacher to come up with a plan, but maybe I am missing something. I can go back and look at that thread.  🙂  

[Ting Tang]

38 minutes ago, mathmarm said:

I never even considered purchasing the rest of A Beka, I only considered their Cursive because they were the only publisher I could find that started cursive in Kindergarten.

Since you used to own it, why do you feel that you need all the lesson plans to do A Beka cursive? Why not just...use the Cursive book according to your judgement? That might be 15 minutes a day or 2 pages a day or whatever makes sense for your home school.

I wouldn't worry about the phonics aligning perfectly. Fortunately all phonics are going to be consistent so she's going to eventually learn all her sounds and sound combinations anyway.

We did not use A Beka because it's Christian and there was no way to filter/censor the religious content due to the nature of the workbooks/subject. However we were sorely tempted too because A Beka was the only publisher I could find that taught cursive starting in Kindergarten.

Before they're fluent readers and writers, the only ELA skills my kids work on are phonetic reading and penmanship. We used the Kumon books (but any book that teaches by letter formation will work) and wove in extra work for reinforcement.

To get their handwriting fluent, we have them

• write missing letters to complete words
• write words from dictation.
• drill handwriting phonics-combos
• drill handwriting high frequence words
• copy
  • words
  • phrases
  • sentences and
  • passages

that relate to whatever we're learning about

Also, while they're doing this we monitor for

• pencil grip
• correct
  • formation
  • spacing
  • sizing
  • alignment
• sloppy effort and have them re-do poor work

and keep it up for about 4 years

 

 

 

That would definitely be true about Abeka!  I wanted to move away from it so my children could read entire classical works instead of little snippets in the readers.  It's also quite pricey, but you are right, most LA curriculums start cursive in the 2nd grade.  It sounds like you do a lot of Charlotte Mason inspired methods.  My daughter is a pretty good reader, but I am scared if we don't continue phonics, it might somehow backfire.  Again, I am probably overthinking it, lol.

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

I think the Cottage Press LA I am looking at recommends this, but I couldn't figure it out.  The book shown looked like a resource for the teacher to come up with a plan, but maybe I am missing something. I can go back and look at that thread.  🙂  

Maybe you can post a link to that thread so I can see it?

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, Ellie said:

Maybe you can post a link to that thread so I can see it?

Primer Phonics & Spelling | Cottage Press (cottagepresspublishing.net)   This is what they recommend.  🙂   

[mathmarm]

OP, I think you're over thinking this. You like A Beka. You're daughter is thriving with it. Purchase only the Phonics with Cursive Writing book that you need for her and use it. You don't need the lesson plans and all the extras.

Ultimately, it's a cursive workbook. Do what is sustainable and makes sense each week/day/session to develop your daughters handwriting. On days when she's done a lot of writing, skip or reduce the cursive assignment for that day.

Penmanship is about muscle memory, so you want to use the book in such a way that she develops skill and the correct muscle memory.

Ultimately whatever phonics A Beka teachers are NOT  going to conflict whatever phonics she learns via whatever phonics program you choose.

Deep breath. It's okay. If you realize that you've made a mistake (I don't think that you are) then you can adjust from there.

[Ting Tang]

27 minutes ago, mathmarm said:

OP, I think you're over thinking this. You like A Beka. You're daughter is thriving with it. Purchase only the Phonics with Cursive Writing book that you need for her and use it. You don't need the lesson plans and all the extras.

Ultimately, it's a cursive workbook. Do what is sustainable and makes sense each week/day/session to develop your daughters handwriting. On days when she's done a lot of writing, skip or reduce the cursive assignment for that day.

Penmanship is about muscle memory, so you want to use the book in such a way that she develops skill and the correct muscle memory.

Ultimately whatever phonics A Beka teachers are NOT  going to conflict whatever phonics she learns via whatever phonics program you choose.

Deep breath. It's okay. If you realize that you've made a mistake (I don't think that you are) then you can adjust from there.

he he thank you so much!  I think we will just get it.  I also own the digital teaching aids for it, so that can always be a help to us if she needs reinforcement.  Now to figure out the rest, LOL.  

[Ellie]

7 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I think the Cottage Press LA I am looking at recommends this, but I couldn't figure it out.  The book shown looked like a resource for the teacher to come up with a plan, but maybe I am missing something. I can go back and look at that thread.  🙂  

Were you thinking of the Writing Road to Reading? That's one of the books pictured, along with LOE and a couple of others I didn't store in my brain cell, lol.

[Ting Tang]

11 hours ago, Ellie said:

Were you thinking of the Writing Road to Reading? That's one of the books pictured, along with LOE and a couple of others I didn't store in my brain cell, lol.

Yes, and the others as well look like resources/references vs. curriculum. Maybe if it seems too difficult to figure out, I just shouldn’t use the primers. 

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

Yes, and the others as well look like resources/references vs. curriculum. Maybe if it seems too difficult to figure out, I just shouldn’t use the primers. 

No, they are curriculum. Spell to Write and Read is Wanda Sanseri's Spalding spin-off. I'm pretty sure that LOE has roots in Spalding, as well.  I have not personally held the other book in my hands, although I am familiar with the title. I suppose you could have one of them on your desk to use as a reference, but why? Just pick one and use it. 🙂 (You know what my vote would be, lol.)

[Ting Tang]

6 hours ago, Ellie said:

No, they are curriculum. Spell to Write and Read is Wanda Sanseri's Spalding spin-off. I'm pretty sure that LOE has roots in Spalding, as well.  I have not personally held the other book in my hands, although I am familiar with the title. I suppose you could have one of them on your desk to use as a reference, but why? Just pick one and use it. 🙂 (You know what my vote would be, lol.)

Okedoke, thank you so much. I am trying to figure out these different programs.  We have good phonics resources here, but I don't have a "plan" to use them.  Maybe I am just burned out searching for the things.  LOL

[Ellie]

5 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

 Maybe I am just burned out searching for the things.  LOL

I think you might be on to something. 😉

[Ellie]

FTR, when we're talking about actual handwriting, we refer to "hand", not "font." Fonts have to do with printing (including online writing). Zaner Bloser is nice, traditional hand, as is ABeka's. I'm personally not fond of the Handwriting Without Tears' hand.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Ellie

[Ting Tang]

4 minutes ago, Ellie said:

FTR, when we're talking about actual handwriting, we refer to "hand", not "font." Fonts have to do with printing (including online writing). Zaner Bloser is nice, traditional hand, as is ABeka's. I'm personally not fond of the Handwriting Without Tears' hand.

I gotcha.  It seems like there are many little differences among the styles.  I think I will likely stick with Abeka for cursive practice.  I am just now adding up what I may be spending on the 4 kids.  Yikes.  lol