Ghosting employers . . . .

[gardenmom5]

is this a thing?

At his new location (Silicon Valley - starts in a week), dsil will be the new manager.  Apparently, there is a problem with people just not showing up.  (Because they've taken a job somewhere else.) Or going on vacation, and not coming back. (Because they've taken a job somewhere else.) - not having the courtesy to give actual notice, or even saying "bye, I'm not coming back tomorrow".

these are *college educated* employees!  Engineers, programmers, etc.   Is this a thing?   Is it a CA thing?

He's a manager (of engineers) where he currently is - and he's never had that problem.  (though there is one guy, they - including HR - would be having a party if he didn't' come back.)

[Ting Tang]

I admit I ghosted once. I was young, and my boss was a jerk and had an office sweetie. I do not feel bad. I’m sure his wife would’ve understood my disgust. 

[Indigo Blue]

They’ve interviewed where my ds works for pretty high up positions. Gone through the hiring process and given a start date, and the person kept giving reasons why they had to keep moving the start date. Finally, they just said they weren’t coming. It’s a good company with competitive pay. This does seem to be happening more. 

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Ting Tang said:

I admit I ghosted once. I was young, and my boss was a jerk and had an office sweetie. I do not feel bad. I’m sure his wife would’ve understood my disgust. 

These people aren't young.

I do sort of wonder if it's a reflection on the current manger . . . who, apparently, will still be there - but no longer a manager.  (supposedly his choice, but maybe his choice was take a demotion or find a new job.  dsil's new bosses *really* wanted him. . . He countered their offer twice, and they met him both times.)  So, dsil will be managing him too . . . .  That could be awkward . . . . 

 But dsil has been told this is "typical for silicon valley becasue there are so many tech companies" . . . so, is it the truth, or they're covering?

 

[Arcadia]

Not where my husband works, and the nearby big tech. Even if people use all their leave for their notice, they would still be back to surrender their employee badge, laptops and any other company issued stuff. 

[gardenmom5]

15 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Not where my husband works, and the nearby big tech. Even if people use all their leave for their notice, they would still be back to surrender their employee badge, laptops and any other company issued stuff. 

yeah - things like this make me thing they're not being entirely upfront.  He'll find out soon enough.

[itsheresomewhere]

Sadly, it happens a lot near me. They just stop coming in without a word. My favorite are the ones who show up a month or so after not coming in and expect to be back in their position. 

[Katy]

It’s always been a thing, but it’s unusual in responsible people. 

[Clarita]

19 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

But dsil has been told this is "typical for silicon valley becasue there are so many tech companies" . . . so, is it the truth, or they're covering?

Yes, it happens. It's not a good look and I didn't think it "happens all the time". I had an intern ghost me before. HR had to threaten him with getting the police involved because he still had our stuff. He came back to me asking if he could try again with excuses as to what happened. I believe I said to him you just had to reply with a sentence to all those emails I sent you asking what's going on. (An email I managed to send the day my father passed away to tell my team I won't be available for a bit.)

No matter how bad a place was I'd at least give an official "I'm quitting." I can see not giving a company 2 weeks notice, but without saying a word... I know people who would keep that person's name and never hire them again.

 

[wintermom]

Not where I work. People may have to leave when another opportunity comes up, but they have the courtesy to let their supervisor know. I love my company. They really treat their employees well, pay them well, and they seem to do a great job finding and keep great employees. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I was just reading an article in Forbes about how much more ghosting is occurring in the hiring process. And how it can do damage to people’s professional reputation. But it didn’t mention people who were already established employees- just candidates and sometimes employers before the paperwork has gone through 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I will say that I don’t think much of the character and especially the integrity of anyone who would behave that way. 

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

These people aren't young.

I do sort of wonder if it's a reflection on the current manger . . . who, apparently, will still be there - but no longer a manager.  (supposedly his choice, but maybe his choice was take a demotion or find a new job.  dsil's new bosses *really* wanted him. . . He countered their offer twice, and they met him both times.)  So, dsil will be managing him too . . . .  That could be awkward . . . . 

 But dsil has been told this is "typical for silicon valley becasue there are so many tech companies" . . . so, is it the truth, or they're covering?

 

I thought the middle aged boss was a little too much giving his 20 year old assistant roses and balloons for her birthday. There was an obvious flirtation.  I hadn't worked there very long and realized I wouldn't be able to continue...lol   Unfortunately, I think people feel replaceable, and maybe that is why etiquette has gone out the window.  

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I thought the middle aged boss was a little too much giving his 20 year old assistant roses and balloons for her birthday. There was an obvious flirtation.  I hadn't worked there very long and realized I wouldn't be able to continue...lol   Unfortunately, I think people feel replaceable, and maybe that is why etiquette has gone out the window.  

But what did that have to do with you?

I feel like I’m missing something. Is it just that you didn’t want to work for a guy who might be cheating on his wife?

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

But what did that have to do with you?

I feel like I’m missing something. Is it just that you didn’t want to work for a guy who might be cheating on his wife?

It was obvious she was treated much differently than the others, in front of others. And I most definitely did not want to be around that.  I was fortunate that I was living at home and was a student then, so I could afford to do that at the time.  It really does make for a hostile work environment.  Do that to the wrong woman who isn't as flattered, and you have yourself a bit of a pickle...or lawsuit.  

[Laura Corin]

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I will say that I don’t think much of the character and especially the integrity of anyone who would behave that way. 

I agree that it's not a good look for the employees.  A tiny part of me welcomes the power shift though.

My husband was made redundant three times. The hiring practices of the companies he applied to - in Finance - were appalling.  Ghosting, unexplained delays, hiring then one month later changing their minds about how to service that market and firing him...

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I agree that it's not a good look for the employees.  A tiny part of me welcomes the power shift though.

The power shift being used for better working conditions would be nice. Leaving without a courtesy email to inform HR about the last day of work is impolite especially in the age of emails and corporate text messages. In the days where we had to send in our resignation letter, that can be awkward if your boss is a really mean person. Even then, we could mail the letter to HR instead or someone higher up if there is no HR. 
 

[Ausmumof3]

I can’t ever imagine doing that! I guess it’s in the same league as management sacking people via text or a mass zoom meeting etc. just bad behaviour. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

55 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I agree that it's not a good look for the employees.  A tiny part of me welcomes the power shift though.

My husband was made redundant three times. The hiring practices of the companies he applied to - in Finance - were appalling.  Ghosting, unexplained delays, hiring then one month later changing their minds about how to service that market and firing him...

I don't think that it's a good look for employers either.  It's not just a matter of "politeness", in my opinion.  It's a matter of professionalism.  And a matter of recognizing that employees are people (in the case of bad managers) and that employers are people (in the case of bad employees).  And yes, sometimes both but I don't think that two wrongs make a right.  And my personal ethics require me to do the right thing even if others don't.  I also think that it's a juvenile thing to do.  (And yes, I do have strong feelings on this both as an employee who has had potential employers ghost me even as far back as the 1980's and as a director who has had people ghost me in my non-profit.) 

[TechWife]

Yes, it’s a thing. It’s increasing right now due to The Great Resignation. Is it a good look? No. Does it mean things  are bad at the new company? Not necessarily. It may just mean other companies are willing to pay more or offer a better benefits package. That he countered twice and they met his demands isn’t surprising in tech right now. It’s a good time to job hunt and increasing competition for good, experienced employees means increasing pay & benefits. The age & experience of the people really doesn’t affect the likelihood of it happening. People get “poached” all the time, especially when they have an in-demand, rare or unusual skill set. A lot of people use vacations to job hunt, too. 

 

[ShepCarlin]

In the retail business, yes, it is a thing. I just recently had a *lovely* experience working part time at a home improvement store. To sum it up, working conditions weren't awesome, position wasn't as advertised, I tried talking to management about transferring to another department-was given the run around. By Friday I had just had it and I quit. I had a letter to hand in but typical...couldn't find anyone to give it to, so I had to sent it via email that afternoon. So did I ghost them? Not really as I did give written notice but I did leave immediately, I didn't give them the grace time of the usual 2 weeks. Truly unlike me but it was apparent that employees aren't their top priority or anywhere near it.

On the flip side, when I first started, I was told that very often they think they have a bunch of new hires coming in for orientation and no one shows up!

But then you also have the gentleman who I spoke with last week...he showed up at the store for orientation and the HR person never showed for his orientation! 

 

[catz]

I've worked in tech and my husband is at the tech VP level in a fortune 500 software company.  Yes, this happens.  Sometimes it makes sense.  If there is non disclosures involved for example or really controlling management.  Somtimes there's other extenuating circumstances that make it necessary for someone.  Sometimes it's weird and spontaneous.  But on the other hand over 25 years of watching this industry, companies dump employees via layoffs on whims on the regular.  I do not think it is a bad thing not to live for company loyalty at all times.

So my husband has been party to a couple abrupt quittings lately.  One guy was working remotely taking care of elderly parents in a remote corner of a Asian country and just isn't keeping up.  That is obviously personal.  A couple weeks ago a youngish woman quit suddenly.  He didn't know until after she quit that she was being paid probably 30-40% less than industry standard for that area.  Well, good for her and more power to her because someone definitely treated her poorly when she was hired and I"m kind of outraged on her behalf.  My spouse is too.  She was a good employee and a big loss.

Also, there are employers like Amazon that are really horrible to SWE.  Do not encourage your newer college grads to work there.  They deserve everything they get.  The thing is a company ranking employees like this is silly. They probably are ranking the top 10% of tech savvy and available SWEs when they do this and someone has to be in the bottom 10.  Definitely leads to a culture of back stabbing and everyone for himself.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employee-ranking-system-drone-engineer-lawmakers-bill-washington-2022-1

Given your DS is a manager, he has an opportunity to change the culture in his group by encouraging employees with issues to come to him and letting them know he'd appreciate notice and an exit interview.  Employers can learn a lot during those exit interviews.  

Anyway - I actually think it makes sense in some cases and it happens.  Why people want to dump on single employees instead of a corporate culture that encourages it is beyond me frankly.  I actually did it once as a young employee.  Let me tell you in the 90's, tech types interviewing young women weren't always honest and upstanding about their job offers.  This job was completely misrepresented to me and I was the most tech saavy person there.  I left within 2 weeks without notice after a much better and HONEST offer came through.  Treat your employees well and good chance they'll treat you well.

[OH_Homeschooler]

8 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I agree that it's not a good look for the employees.  A tiny part of me welcomes the power shift though.

My husband was made redundant three times. The hiring practices of the companies he applied to - in Finance - were appalling.  Ghosting, unexplained delays, hiring then one month later changing their minds about how to service that market and firing him...

This is my thought exactly. When I was last looking for a job a couple years ago, I sent out tons of resumes. I took the time to personalize every single cover letter. If I was lucky I received an auto-email acknowledging receipt of my application. Occasionally a real person would email me to say they received my application. Most of the time I never heard that a position had been filled. I was actually very impressed when I had gone through several rounds of interviews with one place and they actually called me to tell me I didn't get the job. How sad is that, to be relieved to hear a real person tell you you're not the chosen one? In the past, I'd traveled on my own dime to interviews states away and didn't have the courtesy of a rejection.

So I just can't really be mad when potential employees do the same thing to employers. That's how they've been taught to act, no? 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

Yes, it’s a thing. It’s increasing right now due to The Great Resignation. Is it a good look? No. Does it mean things  are bad at the new company? Not necessarily. It may just mean other companies are willing to pay more or offer a better benefits package. That he countered twice and they met his demands isn’t surprising in tech right now. It’s a good time to job hunt and increasing competition for good, experienced employees means increasing pay & benefits. The age & experience of the people really doesn’t affect the likelihood of it happening. People get “poached” all the time, especially when they have an in-demand, rare or unusual skill set. A lot of people use vacations to job hunt, too. 

 

It's not that people leave (for whatever reason) - it's that they just don't' show up one day without saying anything leaving the PEOPLE at their former employer scrambling.   I consider it pretty juvenile.   They should put on their grown up pants and be responsible and at least say "I'm not working here anymore".   

Granted I'm not in the working world - but I encounter the attitude (on a less significant scale, but still juvenile) on a regular basis when selling things. People go so far as to set a time to come by and disappear into the ether.   (Years ago - There was a person who would hang up in the middle of "her" sentence so it would like an accidental disconnect. - she called twice for the same item but different ads. so yeah, it was deliberate.)   Time to grow up.

1dd has had a couple companies try to poach her - but if she'd gone with them, she still would have let her employer know she was leaving.   Even if it was an "I quit" as she walked out the door for the last time.  (she had one small employer she had to talk herself down from doing just that.  There were people she liked, that would have been left high and dry. She made sure they knew where things were before she left, and they could call her with questions.)

dsil has changed jobs (transfers within a couple corporations) many times. Even in the same year.   When he left previous corporation for new corporation, he actually gave them an opportunity to increase his salary (just a little, not even as much as the raise he got from new corporation in a lower COL area) and he'd stay.

This is the same corporation where he's been for the last five years. Just a different division and different state.  His current division isn't having this problem.  (he's had one problem employee who has threatened to just not show up one day.  Dsil and HR would celebrate if the guy really did it.)

20 minutes ago, catz said:

I've worked in tech and my husband is at the tech VP level in a fortune 500 software company.  Yes, this happens.  Sometimes it makes sense.  If there is non disclosures involved for example or really controlling management.  But on the other hand over 25 years of watching this industry, companies dump employees via layoffs on whims on the regular.  I do not think it is a bad thing not to live for company loyalty at all times.

 

Given your DS is a manager, h 

He is a good manager.   

Apparently - it's reported by multiple other managers in this division.  So not just one controlling manager.  Dsil's is a TS position, so I imagine that can be an added stress.  (from what very little I know  - I could see the responsibilities being particularly stressful.)  I don't know what level clearance is required for the people he will be managing.  But if someone can't get their clearance. . . they have no job.  So I don't know where in the process they were when they "disappeared".  Or how long they'd been there.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, catz said:

there are employers like Amazon that are really horrible to SWE.  D

I know two guys who left Google for Amazon.  Both have said it was a big improvement.  One is a programmer, one is finance.

Like any giant corporation - depts often matter.

[Arcadia]

My husband’s department lost many people to their neighbor paying more. People would let their entire dept know their last day and what time they would be in office to return all the stuff. The dept staff who live a short commute away would come back to office and have a “last day” coffee break with the leaving colleague (his location is still under work from home). Even the more toxic people are going to leave cordially because they don’t want to jeopardize future employee referrals. Also some colleagues has children who are schoolmates and they rather stay cordial.  
I have toxic employers before. I just took no pay leave in lieu of notice but they know I quit.  Those were entry level temp jobs so no handover required.

[catz]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I know two guys who left Google for Amazon.  Both have said it was a big improvement.  One is a programmer, one is finance.

Like any giant corporation - depts often matter.

I have not worked at Amazon personally in tech, just heard stories.  The thing is if you click with your team and doing well, you aren't likely to fall into that lowest 10% and it may never come up on your radar.  Someone has to be the fall guy.  It might be the least productive person in your group.  But it also might be the quirky guy that doesn't get invited to meetings so isn't in the loop.  Forcing managers to identify the lowest 10% of a group does not seem like a great way to build a team based productive group.  If you're hiring good people, it's really ok if everyone finds their place on a team to be productive without pitting people against each other.  I find it highly unlikely they aren't able to screen for technical competence on the front end.  I have a college student in CS, so I just follow industry hiring boards etc and I see the most consistent complaining about Amazon and I definitely would not encourage my son to go there for a first employment experience.

I was going to say to have someone quit and not hand over the company laptop, ID, etc is pretty unheard of though.  My husband's company has an office in India.  Those managers want a MONTH notice.  Well I don't actually think that is reasonable so people regularly do less than that.  And I think that because the expectation is NOT reasonable, employees are more likely to just do it with no notice because they know they can't wait a month for whatever reason.  I think it's a complex issue that may reflect individual relationships in office, employee's personal info, etc.  I don't doubt there are some employees that are being ridiculous.  But I do think it's just as likely there is other backstory maybe not everyone knows.  I'd actually be worried about company culture if a new employer said this was a regular thing.  

[Arcadia]

@OH_Homeschooler My husband and I had done screening resumes for interviews. Once, I had to go through a stack of more than 200 applications for a customer service hardware and software engineer job. My office only had one HR staff besides the regional HR director. Even if the HR director help call, it would take a long time to finish calling for just this one position.  For internships positions, my husband and his colleagues interviewed more than 60 per campus and all could be rejected. HR is supposed to inform the colleges’ student services dept and the student services dept would inform their students. Despite the Great Resignation,  applications are still more than job openings where my husband works. HR already did the pre-screening and what my husband ends up interviewing is already a subset of the applications. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ghosting has a specific meaning. It means just leaving and not showing up. It doesn’t mean leaving without advance notice but still telling someone that you won’t be back in the morning. 
 

 

[catz]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Ghosting has a specific meaning. It means just leaving and not showing up. It doesn’t mean leaving without advance notice but still telling someone that you won’t be back in the morning. 
 

 

That may be true, but employers are definitely using it more loosely when they just don't get the notice they actually want in the exact manner they actually want.  My husband's employer certainly does. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

13 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@OH_Homeschooler My husband and I had done screening resumes for interviews. Once, I had to go through a stack of more than 200 applications for a customer service hardware and software engineer job. My office only had one HR staff besides the regional HR director. Even if the HR director help call, it would take a long time to finish calling for just this one position.  For internships positions, my husband and his colleagues interviewed more than 60 per campus and all could be rejected. HR is supposed to inform the colleges’ student services dept and the student services dept would inform their students. Despite the Great Resignation,  applications are still more than job openings where my husband works. HR already did the pre-screening and what my husband ends up interviewing is already a subset of the applications. 

I'm not really sure the point you're trying to make. I'm sorry you were overwhelmed. Some companies have multiple staff just devoted to hiring so you'd think they would know how to respond to candidates and have the resources to do so.

Job applicants have a lot on their plates too. When I was applying to jobs most recently I was working full time and a single mom to 3 kids. But I still took the time to fill in the boxes on the applications (copied and pasted from my resume that I was also required to submit), took the assessments, and customized every cover letter. I think I applied to around 30 jobs. I had several phone interviews and several in-person interviews. It's a lot of work only to be told nothing.

I think the respect should go both ways.  

[Arcadia]

1 minute ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I'm not really sure the point you're trying to make 

I am just saying sometimes the HR do a bad job informing the applicants and sometimes the HR is severely understaffed because the company cut corners and they rather cut from HR than Finance. Where my husband works, the HR is outsourced. 

[TechWife]

This is another reason why the old song “Times They Are ‘a Changin’” has been running through my head a lot these past couple of years. I’ll add a plug in here for a recent soapbox issue of mine - etiquette. We no longer teach or expect good etiquette in our culture. It’s hurting us in a lot of different ways, including this.

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by TechWife

[Arcadia]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:47 AM, catz said:

Also, there are employers like Amazon that are really horrible to SWE.  Do not encourage your newer college grads to work there.  They deserve everything they get.  The thing is a company ranking employees like this is silly. They probably are ranking the top 10% of tech savvy and available SWEs when they do this and someone has to be in the bottom 10.  Definitely leads to a culture of back stabbing and everyone for himself.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employee-ranking-system-drone-engineer-lawmakers-bill-washington-2022-1

 

My husband says it is called stack ranking and practice by quite a few tech companies. Microsoft was apparently the first one to do so. The link has a long description of the practice in Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, Google.

http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/2013/11/11/StackRankingWhyAreAmazonFacebookAndYahooCopyingMicrosoftsPerformanceReviewSystem.aspx

”Kurt Eichenwald's article persuasively makes that argument in the in excerpt below 

Every current and former Microsoft employee I interviewed—every one—cited stack ranking as the most destructive process inside of Microsoft, something that drove out untold numbers of employees. The system—also referred to as “the performance model,” “the bell curve,” or just “the employee review”—has, with certain variations over the years, worked like this: every unit was forced to declare a certain percentage of employees as top performers, then good performers, then average, then below average, then poor. …

For that reason, executives said, a lot of Microsoft superstars did everything they could to avoid working alongside other top-notch developers, out of fear that they would be hurt in the rankings. And the reviews had real-world consequences: those at the top received bonuses and promotions; those at the bottom usually received no cash or were shown the door. …

“The behavior this engenders, people do everything they can to stay out of the bottom bucket,” one Microsoft engineer said. “People responsible for features will openly sabotage other people’s efforts. One of the most valuable things I learned was to give the appearance of being courteous while withholding just enough information from colleagues to ensure they didn’t get ahead of me on the rankings.” Worse, because the reviews came every six months, employees and their supervisors—who were also ranked—focused on their short-term performance, rather than on longer efforts to innovate. …”

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

My husband says it is called stack ranking and practice by quite a few tech companies. Microsoft was apparently the first one to do so. The link has a long description of the practice in Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, Google.

 

It started with Gates, went on steroids under Balmer (there's a reason the stock price went UP when it was announced he was leaving - even though no successor had yet been named.)- and has calmed down quite a bit with Satya.    1dd started under Balmer, and has worked in a number of different areas.  In her experience, it's a lot better than it was.

[Arcadia]

27 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

It started with Gates, went on steroids under Balmer (there's a reason the stock price went UP when it was announced he was leaving - even though no successor had yet been named.)- and has calmed down quite a bit with Satya.    1dd started under Balmer, and has worked in a number of different areas.  In her experience, it's a lot better than it was.

Your daughter may know Richard Belluzzo. He was my CEO when I worked at silicon graphics. Balmer was infamous in the tech circles.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

Your daughter may know Richard Belluzzo. He was my CEO when I worked at silicon graphics. Balmer was infamous in the tech circles.

She's not that high up - and MS is big.  She might have heard of him - but one of my local religious leaders is a MS VP (he's super sharp and a nice guy - I really like him) and she'd never heard of him. (she lives in a different area.)

Balmer . . . . s. m. h.  good riddance.