My stepdad let my 13 yo drive with 2 siblings in the back

[Sneezyone]

28 minutes ago, Katy said:

Plenty of states still have school permits at 14. The problem was the location and who else was in the car.  On a farm or other private property without little kids in the car it would legally be fine.

Agreed. It was supremely bad judgment to be sure. It's fortunate that no one was hurt. I wouldn't ban the grandparents from seeing the kids over it but GRANDPA (why should grandma suffer? She had nothing to do with it) would require supervision and conversations would be had with DC to ensure they know GRANDPA'S judgment is not to be trusted. Forewarned is forearmed.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Clarita]

5 hours ago, Calizzy said:

She came running in the house crying because she crashed into dh’s 3 month old car. She was very shaken. The other 2 kids were very shaken too. It’s still raw for dd. I think I will talk to her more tomorrow.

I think you should just inform her that she can say no to these things, even from an authority figure. She already got her punishment/consequence for her actions. I think 13 can still be young to know authority figures can have bad judgement.

[Ausmumof3]

I wouldn’t be having him take the kids anywhere in the car again unfortunately 

[Melissa in Australia]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

I think you should just inform her that she can say no to these things, even from an authority figure. She already got her punishment/consequence for her actions. I think 13 can still be young to know authority figures can have bad judgement.

13 here is considered old enough to be legally responsable for their misjudgement  and crimes

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

I think you should just inform her that she can say no to these things, even from an authority figure. She already got her punishment/consequence for her actions. I think 13 can still be young to know authority figures can have bad judgement.

It can be young, yes, still a VERY important conversation to have for all kids tho, even at younger ages. Adults aren't infallible or omnipotent and they make misjudgments all the time. It's always OK to say no and mom/dad will back you up.

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

13 here is considered old enough to be legally responsable for their misjudgement  and crimes

I don't really see why you need focus on legal consequences for a child who is remorseful. A legal record is absolutely not the only way to address the situation meaningfully. A legal record like that would have an outsized impact on many years of her future. While very serious, this crime is not the same as sex abuse.

Imposing legal consequences on grandpa means the 13-year-old carries those consequences as well, and I would argue that they will impact her far more severely than him. While she certainly knew she couldn't legally drive, she was also being manipulated by a much older authority figure. Frankly, children have done much worse when directed to do so by an adult authority. We see it all the time in foster care. And numerous posters have pointed out that there are many places where younger teenagers drive--depending on this person's location, if she has heard of others who have driven at a young age and her grandfather was urging her to do it, this admittedly poor choice just would not feel as dastardly as breaking and entering or something like that.

There are ways for her to feel real consequences that would not have the seismic impact of a police filing. Grandpa pays for everything and is not allowed unsupervised access ever again. And the thirteen-year-old can participate in being educated about the law and the dangers as well as helping to restore the damage caused by hitting the car in whatever way her parents think appropriate. I would think some training in assertiveness would be appropriate as well.

[Melissa in Australia]

I guess you are right Harriet. 

 I never said this crime was the same as sex abuse, but rather was trying to say that covering up a crime in a family generally speaking allows the person to continue doing criminal behaviour the same way that covering up sex abuse in a family  allows it to continue. I wasn't meaning they are on the same level. I probably misworded  what I wrote.

 

I would think an underage driving  is worse than breaking and entering. the underaged drive could potentially kill others, breaking and entering wouldn't.

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Maybe the 13 year old needs to understand what a grave offence she has done. 13 is plenty old enough to say no that is wrong.

I disagree.  SOME 13yos have the strength and maybe the understanding, but there are many who would find it difficult to stand up to an authority figure, particularly a grandparent. Or the quick ability to process the danger involved. Especially if they’re dangling a “fun” temptation in a jovial way with confidence and lack of concern. We talk about 18 and 19yos whose brains aren’t fully developed yet.  Let’s not demand more of 13yos!

My 19yo let my 14yo drive her car in a parking lot a few months back *with my spouse’s knowledge. I know it’s not the same as a road, and there was a parent involved, but I’m still pissed at the “adults”, not the pressured 14yo. I’m not even all that concerned about it being illegal, but that I, as the other parent, wasn’t consulted. And I would have said no for now, based on my knowledge of my son.

Of all the things, it would never occur to me to talk to my 13yo or 14yo about not getting behind the wheel if someone offers.

[kristin0713]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I disagree.  SOME 13yos have the strength and maybe the understanding, but there are many who would find it difficult to stand up to an authority figure, particularly a grandparent. Or the quick ability to process the danger involved. Especially if they’re dangling a “fun” temptation in a jovial way with confidence and lack of concern. We talk about 18 and 19yos whose brains aren’t fully developed yet.  Let’s not demand more of 13yos!

My 19yo let my 14yo drive her car in a parking lot a few months back *with my spouse’s knowledge. I know it’s not the same as a road, and there was a parent involved, but I’m still pissed at the “adults”, not the pressured 14yo. I’m not even all that concerned about it being illegal, but that I, as the other parent, wasn’t consulted. And I would have said no for now, based on my knowledge of my son.

Of all the things, it would never occur to me to talk to my 13yo or 14yo about not getting behind the wheel if someone offers.

I totally agree. This was a terrible situation for a 13yo to be put in by a grandparent. And it is not something you ever think to prepare your kids for. "By the way, kids, if grandpa ever offers for you to drive the car, just say no!" Uh, no. It's so reckless and asinine and unbelievable. I could see addressing it when their friends start learning how to drive but that is a totally different scenario.  

[kristin0713]

I wish there was a way for grandpa to face legal consequences without implications for the 13yo. If there was, I would be pressing charges in this situation. 

[DawnM]

13 hours ago, Calizzy said:

He’s been in my life since I was a child. He is nice, but lacks good judgement. This incident just enforces that I cannot let my guard down in regards to him supervising my children. He grew up with a disfunctional family in which he would drive his drunk parents home from the bar when he was young. He was trying to be “cool grandpa”letting her drive. Smh. 

I was wondering if he was trying to be cool.

I hope he offered to pay for any damages to your car and I hope he apologized to the kids and what I would do is explain to my kids that if they don't feel that something is right, they can firmly say NO to grandpa AND I would tell Grandpa that when my kids say no, it is a no and don't push it.

[Calizzy]

9 hours ago, Katy said:

Plenty of states still have school permits at 14. The problem was the location and who else was in the car.  On a farm or other private property without little kids in the car it would legally be fine.

The problem is that this was the first time she had ever driven. No instruction. Just “give it a try.” Very hilly, blind corners, kids playing in front yards. She was using 2 feet for the gas a brake. Just didn’t even know what she was doing. I assume farm parents don’t just hand over the tractor and say “give it a try,” I’m sure there is instruction on safe operation.

[BlsdMama]

15 hours ago, Calizzy said:

To clarify, he really only half apologized. When I said it was dangerous for the other kids in the cars he was like, “we’ll, they had seat belts on.” And when I said she could have hit the gas instead of the brakes he was like “I was watching her” like watching her would make her feet press the right pedal. 

That’s what would make me mad. 
 

Look, 14 yo can get permits here. It’s not about the age. It’s not about what he grew up with. It’s not about her abilities. 
 

This is about grandparents respecting parents. 
 

You can disagree with me. Fine. You had your kids. You raised them your way. These are my kids. This is my judgment. You don’t get to make parental decisions. Ever. 

[Rachel]

Don’t be too hard on your 13 year old. It’s easy to get caught up in the moment. An adult was in charge and kids are taught to listen to adults. Wrecking the car was plenty of punishment. Grandpa was wrong. Teach your kids how to handle the questionable situations that may come up as they get older. It’s impossible to predict all the ridiculous situations that may come up. 

I was one of those kids that legally drove at 14, as did my 5 siblings, we weren’t farm kids. As far as I know there are 10 or 11 states that still have some provision for 14 year olds driving. I know by the time my youngest brother was driving you could lose your license until 18 if you had an accident or tickets (don’t know all the parameters).

My husband and his sister were farm kids. They were helping drive the farm truck in low gear before they were big enough to both see out the windshield and reach the pedals. They weren’t allowed to drive on roads until 16 though even though they were allowed to drive on the farm.

When my kids were little, I was fearful the grandparents would allow them to drive the ATV, gator, or tractors. So I drilled into them absolutely no sitting in laps, no driving until older, no riding in beds of trucks, told the grandparents it was a quirk of mine. Coached the kids on how to handle it if situations came up. Cousins the same age who lived closer were allowed so it kind of made it bigger deal that my kids weren’t.
 

Coaching has been effective with two of my kids, they just reminded the grandparents they aren’t allowed and it’s no big deal. Third child lives in the moment. He remembers when older siblings are around, not when he’s visiting alone. He once apologized later for driving on grandma’s lap when he wasn’t supposed to. Now if he’s visiting alone I remind him of the rules in advance. It is a pain in the rear doing some chores without the gator or truck but my rule is all kids in a proper seat. 

Now that my 14 year old is 6’ and has demonstrated responsibility, I don’t mind him driving on their farm. But the grandparents often take the road between their two properties because it is easier. It’s 100’ but he knows they are not allowed to drive or be riding in an atv on that stretch (it’s not busy but people speed). Because of his personality I trust him. The same may not apply when my other kids are the same age. 

Lastly, I’m glad all your  kids stayed safe despite what could have happened, it’s normal to feel livid. I would probably wait a few days before making declarations about spending time with the grandparents. 

[Harriet Vane]

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I guess you are right Harriet. 

 I never said this crime was the same as sex abuse, but rather was trying to say that covering up a crime in a family generally speaking allows the person to continue doing criminal behaviour the same way that covering up sex abuse in a family  allows it to continue. I wasn't meaning they are on the same level. I probably misworded  what I wrote.

 

I would think an underage driving  is worse than breaking and entering. the underaged drive could potentially kill others, breaking and entering wouldn't.

I agree that covering up wrongs enables bad behavior, so I think we agree on that but might have different ideas about what form of response is best.

I also agree that underage driving is definitely more dangerous as you've said, though I think the child in question might *feel* as though breaking and entering is the more obvious wrong. Does that make sense? It's a matter of perception, and perception can often deceive us.

[Katy]

I think in most areas a police officer would privately tell a family not to report this. It wouldn’t serve anyone. 

[SKL]

This is an interesting cultural difference.  I currently know at least one 15yo girl who says her dad has been letting her drive for years.  But I'm sure they worked up to vs. him letting her drive on a regular street her first time behind the wheel.

Stepgranddad should have asked parents first IMO.

What else does he think your 13yo is old enough for?  What's he really trying to accomplish here?

I wouldn't let him be unsupervised with my kids for a long time after that.

If this was the only incident, I wouldn't take any other action or say anything else about it.  I'd just quietly plan to avoid giving grandpa a chance to get my kids into dumb situations.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is a huge difference between letting a young teen drive in a big open field or an empty parking lot and letting them drive on city streets especially with no other instruction.  The former can be done with parental permission without too many consequences even if there is a problem.  The second has huge potential consequences as seen in what happened. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

New cars (or even older cars now) are extremely expensive to buy, maintain and to repair.  Right there it makes the property damage automatically more than that of breaking a window with a baseball (though that too is so much more expensive than it used to be now.) 

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

There is a huge difference between letting a young teen drive in a big open field or an empty parking lot and letting them drive on city streets especially with no other instruction.  The former can be done with parental permission without too many consequences even if there is a problem.  The second has huge potential consequences as seen in what happened. 

I completely agree. The difficulty is that with so many driving young, it's not perceived as being all that dangerous, whether by grandpa or teen.

IMO the grandfather should have known better, absolutely, and he deserves the scolding he got and he deserves to pay for the full damages and he deserves the loss of trust. But I could also see him in that moment making a false equivalence between the empty-parking-lot/field under-age driving that goes on.

And I can see how the 13yo might not have understood what a terribly big deal it is both because grandpa was egging her on and also because of the somewhat-normalized under-age driving that happens in so many places. My guess is that once behind the wheel it was much, much bigger and more complicated than she had realized and that she was genuinely horrified to hit the car. It's only a guess, but it's easy for me to see how the situation may have snowballed and she didn't find herself strong enough to stop it once in the middle of it. For that reason, I think educating her about the potential impact of this poor decision makes sense, and I could even see expecting her to take some age-appropriate steps to "make it right" about the car she hit or the danger to her siblings. And most importantly, some role playing and practicing for how to stop a situation from snowballing like that.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Harriet Vane
typos

[SKL]

I don't think my kids at 13 would have really understood the danger of slowly driving my car up my quiet street without prior instruction.  I think that requires some personal experience.

(Well ... I correct myself ... my kid had an incident with a Gator at age 12, which taught her that driving a motorized vehicle was no joke.  But most 13yos have not had that experience, I don't think.)

[katilac]

I can definitely see a 13-yr-old being quite hazy on the legalities of an older licensed driver allowing a teen to drive the car. 

On 3/27/2022 at 10:31 PM, 2squared said:

Kids in South Dakota are able to get their permits and drivers licenses at 14yo, and kids in my area are driving tractors and vehicles on farms as soon as they are tall enough to reach the pedals (same as when I was a kid). 

They get a permit/license with their parents' permission, and their parents also presumably teach them how to drive. I know plenty of people who let kids drive vehicles on a farm or camp, but even the ones I don't consider super-responsible start with a carefully chosen area, adult supervision and guidance, and certainly no other kids in the car. 

On 3/28/2022 at 3:52 AM, Melissa in Australia said:

covering up a crime in a family  

Not reporting it to the police does not have to mean covering it up. Clearly the whole family knows about it, and there's no reason to think the kids are going to be told to pretend it never happened. 

On 3/28/2022 at 6:15 AM, kristin0713 said:

I wish there was a way for grandpa to face legal consequences without implications for the 13yo. If there was, I would be pressing charges in this situation. 

I wouldn't. It was stupid as hell, I'd never let him supervise my kids, and I'd certainly inform other family members with kids, but I don't think it's a situation that requires pressing charges. Once you involve the law, it's out of your control, and there can be far-ranging, unintended consequences. Like, you'd probably be fine if he got a citation and suspended license, but would you also be fine if he got sent to prison? Because it could happen, and there are no take-backs once you get that ball rolling. The consequences won't be your decision. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I just questioned my tween and teens. They all clearly understand they need to be licensed to drive and to follow the specific guidelines that provisional licenses require. 
 

I definitely have higher expectations for adults. They definitely should understand how dangerous and stupid it would be to let a kid drive for the first time from a commercial area on windy roads, underage, unlicensed, without parental permission, and with passengers.

I drove a tractor on a ranch before I was licensed. Even then, when dinosaurs walked the earth, we understood farm driving is different than street driving. I don’t buy the “times are different” excuse. 

[Drama Llama]

I feel like my kids have been counting the days till they can drive since they could count on their fingers.  So, I have no doubt that at 13 they knew that it was illegal for them to drive, and that I didn't want them to do illegal things even if someone I usually trusted invited them to do so.

So, in this case, I'd want to know.  Was this an impulsive decision to yes to something they knew was a bad idea but that sounded super fun (that would be one of my kids)?  In which case I'd want to have some serious conversations.  Or did Grandpa push past their resistance in some way?  Which I would want to know exactly how, because that is super alarming to me.  Or did they have past interactions with Grandpa that made them feel unsafe saying no to him?  Again, I would want to know more.  

That isn't to say that this isn't primarily Grandpa's fault or that I'd punish my kid (unless you consider talking to them punishment, which I'm pretty sure my 11 year old thinks is torture), but I'd want a lot more answers.  Because an adult child dynamic where the adult coerces a kid who is resisting, or pushes past a child's no, raises a lot of red flags for me. 

[katilac]

6 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 but I'd want a lot more answers.  

I think it's fine to open a conversation, while also being well aware that you might not get 'a lot more answers.' 

Many kids and teens are going to have a hard time articulating why they made a bad decision. And sometimes there truthfully is not all that much to articulate, because it was just the reptile brain cheerily taking control in the moment. 

If they say they don't know why they did it, they may well be telling the complete truth. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by katilac

[kiwik]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:38 AM, elroisees said:

This sort of craziness was not uncommon when I was a kid. I'm a tad old. But yeah, that's insanely dangerous and maybe criminal. I'm so sorry he did that. Your poor daughter must be so freaked out. 

I know of kids who have been allowed to drive on mudflats or paddocks.  And a friend at school was allowed to drive down the drive to sit in while waiting for the rural school bus.  But on a busy street. Imagine if she hit a kid or hurt one of her siblings she would be traumatized ror life.

[Scarlett]

On 3/27/2022 at 10:43 PM, Katy said:

Plenty of states still have school permits at 14. The problem was the location and who else was in the car.  On a farm or other private property without little kids in the car it would legally be fine.

In AR it is still age 14 to get a driving permit.  You have to pass a written test first but then you can immediately drive anywhere on any road as long as you have an over 21 year old in the car as a teacher.  
 

Of course that doesn’t change the child in OP was not legal, experienced at all, or doing something allowed by her parents. Grandfather displayed very poor judgment and I hope he will pay for the damages and that insurance does not have to be involved.

[BlsdMama]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:28 PM, SKL said:

This is an interesting cultural difference.  I currently know at least one 15yo girl who says her dad has been letting her drive for years.  

I think we use “cultural differences” as a soft excuse sometimes. 
 

I grew up on a working farm. My kids drive at 14 when they get their permit, not before. My brother started letting his son drive across a pasture at 8. He now drive from his house to my mom and dad’s- short distance but on the road and technically legal (farm to farm and on the road/farm vehicle) at 12.  Totally freaks me out. He likes to say we were raised that way but we were not. We didn’t drive farm vehicles, except the skid loader, until 8th/9th grade. But marking it up as “we were raised like that” has been figured out and filled by folks as, “others will let it pass.)

[Laura Corin]

15 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I think we use “cultural differences” as a soft excuse sometimes. 
 

And talking of cultural difference: you can't start driving on the road until you are 17 in the UK, unless you have been officially assessed as mobility-disabled, when you can start at 16. 

You need to be accompanied while driving by a driver over 21 until you pass theory and practical tests.  Before you pass the tests, you cannot go on motorways (freeways) unless you are with a driving instructor in a car with dual controls.

[Hannah]

9 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

And talking of cultural difference: you can't start driving on the road until you are 17 in the UK, unless you have been officially assessed as mobility-disabled, when you can start at 16. 

You need to be accompanied while driving by a driver over 21 until you pass theory and practical tests.  Before you pass the tests, you cannot go on motorways (freeways) unless you are with a driving instructor in a car with dual controls.

In South Africa you can get a 'learner's license' upon passing a theory exam and then start driving on the road (of any type) accompanied by a licensed driver.  You can only do your practical test to become a licensed driver at age 18.

[Melissa in Australia]

Here in Victoria, Australian you have to pass a written test on road rules at 16, then you can get a learners permit. You then need to drive with a large yellow and black L sign on the front and back of the car. You have to be accompanied by an adult on a full drivers license until you are 18.  You have to accumulate 120 hours of driving time in those 2 years, then you Need to pass a written and driving test to progress to your probationary lisence. You then display a red and black P plate on the front and back of your car for 3 more years. During that time you have driving conditions. You cannot have more than 2 people in the car under 21  with you unless they are siblings, there are power conditions on the type of car you can drive, no blood alcohol at all etc.

 

[katilac]

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

You have to pass a written test first but then you can immediately drive anywhere on any road as long as you have an over 21 year old in the car as a teacher.  
 

You can immediately drive on any road in my area with a permit and adult driver, but I sure hope most people have the sense to start in a parking lot or such. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

You can immediately drive on any road in my area with a permit and adult driver, but I sure hope most people have the sense to start in a parking lot or such. 

Yes.exactly 

[Carrie12345]

8 minutes ago, katilac said:

You can immediately drive on any road in my area with a permit and adult driver, but I sure hope most people have the sense to start in a parking lot or such. 

In the 90s, my Driver’s Ed was 3 sessions. 1st through suburbia, 2nd on state highways (including circles), and 3rd on the interstate.  Even as someone who had illegally driven in a parking lot (not with an adult’s knowledge or presence) and against the rules on private 5mph roads (with my grandpa, funny enough), and desperate to get my license, I found that $#*! to be pretty dang bananas!

[katilac]

16 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

In the 90s, my Driver’s Ed was 3 sessions.  

In the 80s, my Driver's Ed was non-existent. 

If you mean formal, that is. My brother-in-law did take me out and practice with me. 

[Danae]

54 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

In the 90s, my Driver’s Ed was 3 sessions. 1st through suburbia, 2nd on state highways (including circles), and 3rd on the interstate.  Even as someone who had illegally driven in a parking lot (not with an adult’s knowledge or presence) and against the rules on private 5mph roads (with my grandpa, funny enough), and desperate to get my license, I found that $#*! to be pretty dang bananas!

Mine too in the 80s.  Except day 2 also included downtown (St. Paul).  

[stephanier.1765]

My Driver's Ed in the 80's occurred during a summer school session. So 6 weeks-ish. Most of which took place in the classroom and we only drove on a small paved, fenced driving course on the school property. There was a second set of brakes on the passengers side so the passenger could brake the car in case of an emergency. Um, so, teenagers and an extra set of brakes was probably not the best ideas. You could always tell who was paired with an a$$hole that day. We did absolutely no off campus driving. Shoot, we never left the fenced area. 🤦‍♀️

[Jean in Newcastle]

OP- you don’t have to answer but I am curious as to if step grandpa has agreed to pay for the damages. 

[Calizzy]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

OP- you don’t have to answer but I am curious as to if step grandpa has agreed to pay for the damages. 

Yes. Immediately my mom said “we’ll pay for it.” Currently working on an estimate…

[Calizzy]

He has since texted me saying, “I’m so sorry, I cry every day. I know your dh hates me. I hope you’ll forgive me.” I hate that he texted me this. It’s still all about him and his guilt. I don’t think he is capable of the more mature remorse of actually scaring my children and putting people in danger. We’ll still see them a few times a year, but we will never let our guard down as to trusting him to be responsible around our children. 

[maize]

He really sounds not mature/reliable in judgment.

People can be generally nice and well-intentioned and, yes, not someone who can be trusted to supervise children. 

I'm glad they are at least paying for the damage.

How is your dd doing?

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Calizzy said:

He has since texted me saying, “I’m so sorry, I cry every day. I know your dh hates me. I hope you’ll forgive me.” I hate that he texted me this. It’s still all about him and his guilt. I don’t think he is capable of the more mature remorse of actually scaring my children and putting people in danger. We’ll still see them a few times a year, but we will never let our guard down as to trusting him to be responsible around our children. 

I 100% agree with not letting your guard down, but I wouldn't see them less because of this (in the long term, I might need to see them less until I calmed down for sure). I can't tell if you're saying "we'll still them a few times a year as we always do" or if you're saying "we're cutting down sharply on visits, but we'll still see them a few times a year."

He can be a bad babysitter and still a loving figure in your children's lives. He can be incapable of the more mature remorse for this stupid, dangerous thing he did, but still capable of giving your children loving attention, and loving all of you. People are more than one thing. 

[Lisa]

I would be livid. Also, never allow him alone with my kids e.v.e.r!

[Scarlett]

I think paying for the damages is a good step.  
 

As far as his apology being all about him,…meh, some people were just never taught to properly apologize. It doesn’t mean he is t sincerely remorseful…..but also doesn’t mean he is a safe person to supervise your children. 
 

I would try to let it go,  the less said now the better.