"Smiling Depression" vs. coping and reality

[Ginevra]

I've been thinking about this lately, because I have seen memes on FB talking about "smiling depression." Basically, a person isn't really so okay but they are hitching up a smile and carrying on. This is presented in a negative light...but - UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT - I just think that's life. I mean, is there really some expectation that the face pointing out to the world has to be a *perfect reflection* of whatever is going on inside? I think, most of the time, we have to carry on and we can't just mope about endlessly because our dog died, our husband lost his job, our mom is a pain in the butt. Or whatever thing. 

Am I misunderstanding these memes and "smiling depression"? I thought it used to be that in order to meet the clinical criteria for "depression," there had to be some demonstrable loss of function. When I actually was treated for depression, it was actually a pretty hard bar to meet; they would not simply take my word for it. 

Anyway...let's discuss. Maybe I have a FB-News-type understanding of this topic and that is the issue. 

[Arcadia]

I think there is a difference between being not grouchy and being polite while feeling upset inside over other things versus presenting as “happy go lucky” and everything is rainbows.

A friend thought she had to be “chirpy” kind of happy at work when she can be just serious looking. She did attempt suicide twice and was warded for treatment a few times. Another friend was also warded for psychiatric treatment when she couldn’t maintain the facade any longer. 
Recently, a Stanford student committed suicide. Maybe if people have known that she was feeling horrible, she would still be alive. Her parents said she was presenting a happy image on social media prior to her death.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/11/katie-meyer-had-everything-live-so-why-couldnt-her-suicide-have-been-prevented/
“Katie Meyer was reportedly the fourth Stanford student to die by suicide in the past 13 months. There has been a spate of suicides at other colleges, and although there is no definitive data about campus suicides, experts at the Jed Foundation, a national nonprofit that works to improve the emotional health and prevent suicides of young people, say mental health challenges have steadily grown among college students over the past five years.”

[Katy]

I don't think the bar is that high anymore. But there is a difference between coping and depression.  I haven't seen those memes so I have no idea if whoever is sharing that actually has mental health problems or if they just don't want to be an adult. I don't know where the line is between refusing to take responsibility for the parts of life you're not fond of vs whining. But I trust that if someone describes depression, even if claiming they aren't depressed, or if they say they've been diagnosed with it they are probably being honest.  Minus a few pathological liars I know I think most people understate mental health problems vs overstate them.

[regentrude]

45 minutes ago, Quill said:

I've been thinking about this lately, because I have seen memes on FB talking about "smiling depression." Basically, a person isn't really so okay but they are hitching up a smile and carrying on. This is presented in a negative light...but - UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT - I just think that's life....

Am I misunderstanding these memes and "smiling depression"? I thought it used to be that in order to meet the clinical criteria for "depression," there had to be some demonstrable loss of function

A person can be smiling and high functioning and at the same time feel their life is pointless and they'd rather be dead. This is absolutely not the same as smiling and carrying on in the face of difficulty. I'd assume suicidal ideation would meet the criteria for depression even if the person is appearing perfectly functional.

It's really insidious because the people surrounding the person may not have any inkling that something very wrong. Until that person takes their own life.

ETA: The term "smiling depression"  has nothing to do with not moping about adverse events. It is a very useful term to describe that some people with depression have a lot of willpower and self control and are able to seemingly hold it together, go about work and family life, while teetering close to the abyss. And they are much less likely to be offered help because they appear "fine".

Edited March 25, 2022 by regentrude

[Jenny in Florida]

I suspect that I might fit this category. I was diagnosed with major depression a couple of years ago and, although I can now function at a certain level and can perform "happy" when required, I still feel like crap the vast majority of the time. I am definitely not functioning at the level I would like to or that I have when not depressed, and there are multiple times a day when I wobble right on the edge of not being able to function at all (as in, it takes every ounce of willpower I have not to curl up in a ball on the floor and whimper). Sometimes, I lose the battle and do lapse into floor-based whimpering. 

Even as I move through my days, I am fairly certain that there really isn't any point to doing so. I no longer cry all the time, mostly because crying takes too much energy. However, underneath the façade, I am actually sad pretty much all the time. 

I would venture a guess, though, that most people with whom I interact in passing or even regularly at work have no clue at all just how bad things are.

(Yes, I am seeing a counselor. Yes, my assorted doctors are aware of the situation.)

 

[JustEm]

Smiling depression isn't simply putting on a happy face for the outside world. It is also putting on a happy face for those closest to you. I think it can be healthy to be able to go to a large family or friend event and be able and ok with putting on a happy face. What isn't healthy is always hiding your depression from the world. 

I suffer from depression and most people I know don't know it, not because I intentionally put on a smiling face but because a group setting isn't where intimate conversations happen. But the closest people to me like my dh, children, parents, siblings close friends know. I talk about it regularly enough for them to know it is an on going issue.

But the reality is most of my time in public is a happy and enjoyable time. That doesn't erase the depression. Sometimes it brings out the depression later because I hid from an issue by throwing myself into fun social events when I should have processed the current issue.

[Indigo Blue]

I think I feel sadness and hurt more than depression. I can be really happy doing things day to day, but some scars are always there underneath and they may never go away. Still, happiness is dominant in my life. It wasn’t always, though. I no longer curl up in bed and cry. Now I understand that things were done to me and that nothing is wrong with me. I refuse to let a wounded person continue to wound me. I win, even though some days are hard. I can let the scars exist and simultaneously let happiness override the pain of them. But I win, and I will smile. 
 

I think this is different from true depression, which I do not think I have experienced. 

[JustEm]

It is similar in comparison to the perfect happy couple you know that seemed to divorce out of no where. I'm sure most of us know a couple like that.  The announcement of their divorce was truly shocking to the people closest to them because from all appearances they had it all and loved each other unconditionally.

But when we spend time to think about it we realize just how unhealthy putting on that perfect couple facade is. No couple is perfect and to never let those imperfections show to others can actually feed the bad parts of a marriage. They can isolate the people suffering in the marriage out of fearing the outside world's reaction to hearing about their struggles since they've always been 'the perfect couple.'

[Kassia]

I am depressed but can keep it from those I don't want to share that with and I also can function well enough to make it day after day but I'm definitely not thriving if that makes any sense.  I just get through each day without really living - just surviving.  

[Indigo Blue]

9 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I am depressed but can keep it from those I don't want to share that with and I also can function well enough to make it day after day but I'm definitely not thriving if that makes any sense.  I just get through each day without really living - just surviving.  

Big hugs to you. 

[Melissa Louise]

I have diagnosed depression and function with a smile on my face most of the time around other people. My DD has diagnosed depression and sometimes can't function at all, let alone with a smile.

I don't pretend to understand depression. I think it's a state we don't understand or treat at all well. I'm open to the idea that the diagnosis is a very rough descriptor of different states, with differing treatment and outcome. 

I think duration and severity matters. We all have times we are coping with something difficult, but have to get on with life anyway. Generally our mood improves as those situations resolve. 

Sometimes the disordered mood is chronic, but whether that's because of lack of resolution ( aka chronic life stressors) or neurochemical or personality driven - who knows? 

For me, it's chronic life stressors + a neurotic personality + coping skills from childhood that were helpful then but not helpful now. Smiling when dead inside is one of those unhelpful coping skills. 

Anyway, it's worth querying any time something becomes a social media meme. Smiling depression is not a diagnosis, just a description of a behaviour. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[wintermom]

2 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I suspect that I might fit this category. I was diagnosed with major depression a couple of years ago and, although I can now function at a certain level and can perform "happy" when required, I still feel like crap the vast majority of the time. I am definitely not functioning at the level I would like to or that I have when not depressed, and there are multiple times a day when I wobble right on the edge of not being able to function at all (as in, it takes every ounce of willpower I have not to curl up in a ball on the floor and whimper). Sometimes, I lose the battle and do lapse into floor-based whimpering. 

Even as I move through my days, I am fairly certain that there really isn't any point to doing so. I no longer cry all the time, mostly because crying takes too much energy. However, underneath the façade, I am actually sad pretty much all the time. 

I would venture a guess, though, that most people with whom I interact in passing or even regularly at work have no clue at all just how bad things are.

(Yes, I am seeing a counselor. Yes, my assorted doctors are aware of the situation.)

 

I'm so glad that you added the details that you are seeing a counselor. I really hope that you get some relief soon. ((big hugs))

[Melissa Louise]

11 hours ago, regentrude said:

A person can be smiling and high functioning and at the same time feel their life is pointless and they'd rather be dead. This is absolutely not the same as smiling and carrying on in the face of difficulty. I'd assume suicidal ideation would meet the criteria for depression even if the person is appearing perfectly functional.

It's really insidious because the people surrounding the person may not have any inkling that something very wrong. Until that person takes their own life.

ETA: The term "smiling depression"  has nothing to do with not moping about adverse events. It is a very useful term to describe that some people with depression have a lot of willpower and self control and are able to seemingly hold it together, go about work and family life, while teetering close to the abyss. And they are much less likely to be offered help because they appear "fine".

Deleted

Edited March 26, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[Guest]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

ETA: The term "smiling depression"  has nothing to do with not moping about adverse events. It is a very useful term to describe that some people with depression have a lot of willpower and self control and are able to seemingly hold it together, go about work and family life, while teetering close to the abyss. And they are much less likely to be offered help because they appear "fine".

Jumping off from this thought, though…

I have a friend who seems like she is “eager” for me to have a big sob session or something with her. I just get the feeling she wants me to divulge my deepest hurts to her, which I have no interest in doing. So I tell her I am fine and politely turn down her, “I’m here for you” stuff. 
So - your last line, about not being offered help because they are “fine” - not everyone wants to be offered help *or* maybe from a particular extremely safe, extremely well-trusted friend, but not from every armchair psych friend that comes along. 
 

I’ve been thinking, isn’t it okay to go through a season where you’ve got issues, without everyone having to hear about it? 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

Jumping off from this thought, though…

I have a friend who seems like she is “eager” for me to have a big sob session or something with her. I just get the feeling she wants me to divulge my deepest hurts to her, which I have no interest in doing. So I tell her I am fine and politely turn down her, “I’m here for you” stuff. 
So - your last line, about not being offered help because they are “fine” - not everyone wants to be offered help *or* maybe from a particular extremely safe, extremely well-trusted friend, but not from every armchair psych friend that comes along. 
 

I’ve been thinking, isn’t it okay to go through a season where you’ve got issues, without everyone having to hear about it? 

Yes and no. 

The idea that we should go through our 'season' without anyone else hearing about it - that can be one of those double edged coping skills. 

Of course, not everyone's 'season' involves clinical depression, not everyone needs external support, not everyone is vulnerable in precisely the same ways. 

So if you are ok keeping your 'season' private, and the privacy is positive for your mood and ability to function, go for it! 

 

[Carrie12345]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Am I misunderstanding these memes and "smiling depression"? I thought it used to be that in order to meet the clinical criteria for "depression," there had to be some demonstrable loss of function. When I actually was treated for depression, it was actually a pretty hard bar to meet; they would not simply take my word for it.

I think “loss of function” can be almost subjective and, even then, can often be hidden.
I can go see friends and have a normal time, but I can also lie in bed for 3 days prior, having my kids excited to cook themselves junk food, and convincing the dog to stretch his time between potty trips.  How would anyone know?

[regentrude]

10 minutes ago, Quill said:

Jumping off from this thought, though…

I have a friend who seems like she is “eager” for me to have a big sob session or something with her. I just get the feeling she wants me to divulge my deepest hurts to her, which I have no interest in doing. So I tell her I am fine and politely turn down her, “I’m here for you” stuff. 
So - your last line, about not being offered help because they are “fine” - not everyone wants to be offered help *or* maybe from a particular extremely safe, extremely well-trusted friend, but not from every armchair psych friend that comes along. 
I’ve been thinking, isn’t it okay to go through a season where you’ve got issues, without everyone having to hear about it? 

Of course that's okay. You don't owe anybody the divulging of your feelings. You don't have to talk about "issues" with everybody.
But if you were, in fact, having suicidal thoughts, you should be talking to somebody.
The person with the obvious depression signs may have loved ones watch out for things getting worse; the person with the invisible depression won't.

Edited March 25, 2022 by regentrude

[Farrar]

I honestly find both ends of the mental health social media meme world really toxic. Like, I get that these aphoristic images and hot take informative posts are resonating with some people and maybe some people are helped by them, but I think lots of them are so distilled that they're counterproductive and probably discouraging or even hurting as many people as they help. 

On the one hand, you have the posts like what you're talking about that are talking about how it's okay to acknowledge that you're struggling and that if you're struggling, that can look a lot of different ways, including smiling through it. And that's all good, but it often seems to be doing it at the expense of encouraging resilience and just practical approaches to action. Like, there seems to be a lot of "it's okay if you couldn't get out of bed today" type posts. And it IS okay. Mental illness is a real illness and someone needed to hear that they're still a person deserving of dignity and love even if they couldn't get moving today. But maybe some people who need to listen to the people in their life who are trying to get them help to do something or struggling to make themselves do some necessary action got the message that they don't have to... and that seems dangerous to me.

And on the other hand, you have the encouraging, get outside, get sunshine, take care of yourself, be intentional, etc. etc. posts. And I have known a bunch of people who seem to get something from them, including people with real mental health challenges. But those can so easily become trite crap. There are connections between certain healthy habits as a way of managing mental illness and knowing what those habits are can be helpful, but it can also just become so much toxic positivity - like, if you don't do those things, you don't deserve to be happy or you're choosing to be depressed. Or that those things are in lieu of medication, which is a super, super dangerous message.

Basically, this trend of treatment and mental health education by social media post and memes seems super dangerous on all fronts to me.

[Guest]

Like, there seems to be a lot of "it's okay if you couldn't get out of bed today" type posts. And it IS okay. Mental illness is a real illness and someone needed to hear that they're still a person deserving of dignity and love even if they couldn't get moving today. But maybe some people who need to listen to the people in their life who are trying to get them help to do something or struggling to make themselves do some necessary action got the message that they don't have to... and that seems dangerous to me.

 

YEEEEESSSSSSSS…..

[Terabith]

11 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I honestly find both ends of the mental health social media meme world really toxic. Like, I get that these aphoristic images and hot take informative posts are resonating with some people and maybe some people are helped by them, but I think lots of them are so distilled that they're counterproductive and probably discouraging or even hurting as many people as they help. 

On the one hand, you have the posts like what you're talking about that are talking about how it's okay to acknowledge that you're struggling and that if you're struggling, that can look a lot of different ways, including smiling through it. And that's all good, but it often seems to be doing it at the expense of encouraging resilience and just practical approaches to action. Like, there seems to be a lot of "it's okay if you couldn't get out of bed today" type posts. And it IS okay. Mental illness is a real illness and someone needed to hear that they're still a person deserving of dignity and love even if they couldn't get moving today. But maybe some people who need to listen to the people in their life who are trying to get them help to do something or struggling to make themselves do some necessary action got the message that they don't have to... and that seems dangerous to me.

And on the other hand, you have the encouraging, get outside, get sunshine, take care of yourself, be intentional, etc. etc. posts. And I have known a bunch of people who seem to get something from them, including people with real mental health challenges. But those can so easily become trite crap. There are connections between certain healthy habits as a way of managing mental illness and knowing what those habits are can be helpful, but it can also just become so much toxic positivity - like, if you don't do those things, you don't deserve to be happy or you're choosing to be depressed. Or that those things are in lieu of medication, which is a super, super dangerous message.

Basically, this trend of treatment and mental health education by social media post and memes seems super dangerous on all fronts to me.

Exactly.  

I've struggled with mental health my entire life.  I've been on meds my entire adult life.  I have a kid who has been on meds since just after her fifth birthday.  I've spent a bunch of time in psychiatric hospitals and day treatment facilities.  But God, it's just as dysfunctional to wallow in depression as it is to deny it.  I mean, sometimes you can't do anything else, and you need to step up the support or try something different.  But sometimes fake it till you make it helps, or even if it doesn't help, it helps other people around you.  And a lot of times, picking up the bags, walking home, and making dinner DOES make you feel better.  Accomplishing tasks helps.  Exercise helps.  Relationships help.  Distraction helps.  

 

[alisoncooks]

I sent this meme to my DH recently because it was something we’d talked about. It seems to fit the topic…

[Ausmumof3]

It reminds me of the James Herriot story where the guy who was always joking and laughing committed suicide after something happened to his dog. It definitely can be a real thing - some people can present a very positive face to the world and still be in a very bad place inside - not a mild circumstantial get yourself over it bad place - a genuinely hopeless place. 
 

 

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Jumping off from this thought, though…

I have a friend who seems like she is “eager” for me to have a big sob session or something with her. I just get the feeling she wants me to divulge my deepest hurts to her, which I have no interest in doing. So I tell her I am fine and politely turn down her, “I’m here for you” stuff. 
So - your last line, about not being offered help because they are “fine” - not everyone wants to be offered help *or* maybe from a particular extremely safe, extremely well-trusted friend, but not from every armchair psych friend that comes along. 
 

I’ve been thinking, isn’t it okay to go through a season where you’ve got issues, without everyone having to hear about it? 

I mean . . . sure? But this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with depression. 

Depression is not just feeling down or sad "for a season." It is not the same as feeling sad about difficult situations or even grieving a loss, both of which are natural and, usually, temporary. The actual clinical definition of depression (quoting from the Mayo Clinic, here) includes symptoms that are "severe enough to cause noticeable problems in relationships with others or in day-to-day activities." 

The American Psychiatric Association has a good article about the differences between sadness/grief and depression: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/depression/what-is-depression

Edited March 25, 2022 by Jenny in Florida

[Guest]

 actual clinical definition of depression (quoting from the Mayo Clinic, here) symptoms that are "severe enough to cause noticeably problems in relationships with others or in day-to-day activities." 
 

Yes, but I guess that’s my point. Like, I’m starting to wonder if some people are getting the message that everyone who *seems* fine might really be one of these smiling depression people and maybe they are not fine at all. But what would anybody want, even if that were true? 
 

You shared that you’re having a difficult time…do you want people to know that/ask about it? 
 

It reminds me of a time when I went to a women’s church retreat and there was this weird forced intimacy where I guess they wanted everyone to end up huddled in a sobbing prayer circle. There was a lot of that, “Give God your pain, he can handle it!” And I was just like, “Ummm…‘scuse me; bathroom break…” 😒

[Jenny in Florida]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

You shared that you’re having a difficult time…do you want people to know that/ask about it? 

I don't think I can answer that question in any satisfying or coherent way. 

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I’ve been thinking, isn’t it okay to go through a season where you’ve got issues, without everyone having to hear about it? 

Yes, it is absolutely ok.

[Terabith]

9 minutes ago, Quill said:

 It reminds me of a time when I went to a women’s church retreat and there was this weird forced intimacy where I guess they wanted everyone to end up huddled in a sobbing prayer circle. There was a lot of that, “Give God your pain, he can handle it!” And I was just like, “Ummm…‘scuse me; bathroom break…” 😒

Okay, not to change the topic, but it seems like this exact situation is exactly what church retreats have almost all been designed to do.  Especially youth group ones.  I was constantly baffled by the general expectation at every single retreat that we were all supposed to be sobbing and hugging.  It was so much emotional manipulation, and also it felt really rather coercive and insincere.  

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

Like, I’m starting to wonder if some people are getting the message that everyone who *seems* fine might really be one of these smiling depression people and maybe they are not fine at all.

I think that is a bit of a stretch. I'm pretty sure in general people are aware that many people are genuinely happy.

Quote

You shared that you’re having a difficult time…do you want people to know that/ask about it? 
It reminds me of a time when I went to a women’s church retreat and there was this weird forced intimacy where I guess they wanted everyone to end up huddled in a sobbing prayer circle. There was a lot of that, “Give God your pain, he can handle it!” And I was just like, “Ummm…‘scuse me; bathroom break…” 😒

For me, it completely depends. It can feel very good to have a space where it is okay to say "I am struggling. I am not okay" - but it has to be the right space. Maybe it was the right space for the other women in the retreat, and simply not for you? Or maybe you are not a person who processes with others?
I can only say that, for me personally, when I was struggling with depression, it was immensely helpful to have somebody acknowledge it, to have some people where I didn't have to pretend everything was fine. That doesn't mean I would have wanted to talk about with every random stranger. But at least for me, it was good to have a space where it was safe to be authentic - and it hurt immensely when folks I considered friends distanced themselves because I wasn't able to be the energetic, smiling, giving person they had come to know. Opened my eyes about the fake fair-weather "sisterhood".

[Guest]

But at least for me, it was good to have a space where it was safe to be authentic - and it hurt immensely when folks I considered friends distanced themselves because I wasn't able to be the energetic, smiling, giving person they had come to know. Opened my eyes about the fake fair-weather "sisterhood

 

Yeah, I guess that is the bottom line: when one needs and wants it, it’s a lifeline to have someone whom you absolutely trust, who can deal with your not-okay-ness, but at the same time, if one *doesn’t* want that - or not with these given people - that’s okay too. 

[JustEm]

I've been married for 14 years and my dh only knows I suffer from depression because I've talked about it extensively with him. I never purposely hide it but the truth is, when he is around I find it easy to be happy and live a normal looking life.

When he isn't around and my depression is at its worst, I can spend 7 hours lying in bed and the hour before he gets home getting enough done to make it appear I've been doing things all day. This is not an intentional action I do to hide what I've done or my depression. it is simply the guilt once the reality of what I did all day sinks in (not that he'd be anything but supportive of me on a bad day.) Most of my days don't look like me lying around all day. Many are the manic side of my depression. I move nonstop, get a lot done, have an incredibly positive outlook on life, and I have an endless supply of creativity. Those days are great and all but the crash that comes from them is BAD! I can now at least prepare myself for the crash that is coming and prepare my family.

 

In regards to the friend that wants you to share, if you aren't comfortable then don't. If you think you can weather your storm alone, which is possible, then do that. A word of warning though... depression is really good at making you think that you are fully capable of handling it alone when you can't. And many times once you realize/admit you need help it is too difficult to push yourself to get it. Talking to a medical professional when you don't want to share with friends is not a bad idea. At least if talking to them just helps you realize it truly is something you can handle on your own.

Edited March 25, 2022 by hjffkj

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Jumping off from this thought, though…

I have a friend who seems like she is “eager” for me to have a big sob session or something with her. I just get the feeling she wants me to divulge my deepest hurts to her, which I have no interest in doing. So I tell her I am fine and politely turn down her, “I’m here for you” stuff. 
So - your last line, about not being offered help because they are “fine” - not everyone wants to be offered help *or* maybe from a particular extremely safe, extremely well-trusted friend, but not from every armchair psych friend that comes along. 
 

I’ve been thinking, isn’t it okay to go through a season where you’ve got issues, without everyone having to hear about it? 

I’m interpreting your description as if this friend isn’t really a close friend and is either toxic and manipulative or just really bad at reading social cues and wants to be closer to you but instead of just letting it happen through the normal route of shared experiences is trying to force it. It feels weird because it is. 

41 minutes ago, Quill said:

 actual clinical definition of depression (quoting from the Mayo Clinic, here) symptoms that are "severe enough to cause noticeably problems in relationships with others or in day-to-day activities." 
 

Yes, but I guess that’s my point. Like, I’m starting to wonder if some people are getting the message that everyone who *seems* fine might really be one of these smiling depression people and maybe they are not fine at all. But what would anybody want, even if that were true? 
 

You shared that you’re having a difficult time…do you want people to know that/ask about it? 
 

It reminds me of a time when I went to a women’s church retreat and there was this weird forced intimacy where I guess they wanted everyone to end up huddled in a sobbing prayer circle. There was a lot of that, “Give God your pain, he can handle it!” And I was just like, “Ummm…‘scuse me; bathroom break…” 😒

The thing is you can have suicidal ideation and not have the depression threaten your everyday life in any way except thoughts of suicide. It’s automatically severe depression but it wouldn’t be apparent to others at all. 

And the church thing I’ve been there too. It was definitely spiritual abuse and manipulation. 

30 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Okay, not to change the topic, but it seems like this exact situation is exactly what church retreats have almost all been designed to do.  Especially youth group ones.  I was constantly baffled by the general expectation at every single retreat that we were all supposed to be sobbing and hugging.  It was so much emotional manipulation, and also it felt really rather coercive and insincere.  

I had this art professor who said he’d been through spiritual abuse but didn’t explain further. He thought everything religious is manipulative and abusive, even the music is down to the chords are frequently chosen to evoke emotion. It made me bristle a bit but I couldn’t argue. It definitely can be that way. 

17 minutes ago, Quill said:

But at least for me, it was good to have a space where it was safe to be authentic - and it hurt immensely when folks I considered friends distanced themselves because I wasn't able to be the energetic, smiling, giving person they had come to know. Opened my eyes about the fake fair-weather "sisterhood

 

Yeah, I guess that is the bottom line: when one needs and wants it, it’s a lifeline to have someone whom you absolutely trust, who can deal with your not-okay-ness, but at the same time, if one *doesn’t* want that - or not with these given people - that’s okay too. 

Absolute trust comes slowly and cannot be forced. Something is wrong when you are being pressured to trust. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Katy
Autocorrect error

[Guest]

Absolute trust comes slowly and cannot be forced. Something is wrong when you are being pressured to trust. 
 

Yes, exactly! It takes me a very long time to fully trust someone - years and years. Some friends I know will never be there; they will remain “go-see-a-movie” friends. A lot of it depends on what I hear them say about other friends. Gossips or back stabbers will never be my true, trusted friend. 

[goldberry]

I've given a lot of thought to the term "toxic positivity" as it is used now.  I think it is healthy to try to look for positive things, be grateful for things, do things that will make you feel better when you are depressed.  The difference I think is in actively working to change your mindset versus just putting on a pretend face that everything is fine.  (And no, I don't think that works for anyone who may need professional or medical help.  But it does work for some and can be helpful.)

I have a friend with some marital issues.  In her marriage, compromise basically means one of them just pretending to accommodate the other while still seething with anger and resentment until eventually blowing up about how grateful the other person should be.  That's awful.  But real compromise, where you decide to accommodate the other person and just enjoy them being happy, or look for things YOU can enjoy in the situation as well, or make it a "try something new" experience...  those are healthy.

We've had some financial issues that have had me and DH really down.  Is it toxic positivity or smiling depression to say, let's just put that aside for just this afternoon and go enjoy something?  I don't think so.  But if DH were to say, "I can't stand you being so mopey..." and I decide to just put on a happy face, that's different.

[goldberry]

44 minutes ago, Quill said:

Absolute trust comes slowly and cannot be forced. Something is wrong when you are being pressured to trust. 
 

Yes, exactly! It takes me a very long time to fully trust someone - years and years. Some friends I know will never be there; they will remain “go-see-a-movie” friends. A lot of it depends on what I hear them say about other friends. Gossips or back stabbers will never be my true, trusted friend. 

AMEN to this!

[Melissa Louise]

Eh, this is starting to feel a bit..idk...

It's an interesting problem to have, that everyone wants you to share about your hard times instead of being all 'buck up buttercup, cheer up and have a nice bath!' The latter is WAY more common, in my experience. (Baths are nice, sure. Shame they don't cure).

It's fine if you want to dismiss 'smiling depression' as untrue or being a mh snowflake or being socially memefied. Every one is entitled to an opinion. 

It does play into some less than helpful assumptions about how depression looks, imho. 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

There are at least two people on this thread who are not me who describe functioning 'well' day to day (so very far from wallowing) who I know are v active in trying to resolve their depression. I'm not sure how that is any kind of low bar, and I'm pretty sure neither of them adopted this as a personality style after seeing a meme. 

Quill's question is 'do I have to share' and 'does the meme increase pressure on me to share?' is valid. 

Suggesting that finding the behavioural description helpful is somehow wallowing - less valid. Imo. 

 

[happi duck]

I've not seen that term before.  It looks like it's an unofficial term  for a serious problem https://www.webmd.com/depression/smiling-depression-overview 

I think it's important to be capable of putting on a smile as needed ...like when a toddler falls and the parent says "oopsie daisy" while checking to see if they need the er, kwim?

However, being clinically depressed and feeling the drive to always put on a smile or hide seems dangerous.  It doesn't sound at all like choosing not to bring a work problem home or choosing to put on a smile when something is inconvenient or unpleasant  Smiling depression doesn't sound like choosing, kwim?

 

 

 

[Tap]

To me, depression is a wide span of thoughts, feelings and ability to deal with the world. AND the biggest one...is that thoughts become inwardly destructive.

Xh, absolutely has depression and requires medication. His will likely never go away, it isn't situational. I believe it is generational/genetic. He seems happy on the outside, but his thoughts are not healthy. It is the worst when he is off meds. He blames everyone for everything but when you really understand the situation, his version isn't quite right. He gravitates towards pleasure seeking behaviors and avoids mundane responsibilities. He avoids those things that are difficult (even if it is family) to the point of not really living his true life. (ie choosing jobs that require travel, to avoid being home etc). Soo many things that aren't super obvious, but once he is medicated, he is a much different person. When we were married, when he was off meds he would treat me like I was cheating on him, if I was going to run errands. When he was on meds, he didn't have the same thought processes. He knew that errands, were just errands. He lost multiple jobs for seemingly little reasons, but I know there was more to it, because I knew he wasn't always doing what they asked him to do (again avoiding the mundane). 

If you met my xh, he seemed to have a good life. It was only me, who understood what was going on. And not because he told me, but because I could see it! He has never talked about being depressed, never ruminated outloud about unhealthy things, never had problems with missing work etc. He has ADHD too, so some was masked by the high energy, but at the end of the day, things weren't right.

 

For me, I am stuck in the muck and mire of raising a special needs kid, pretty much alone. She spends about 4-5 days a month with my xh. Otherwise it is me. I talk about my issues all the time, because I think women in general hold too much in. And I want others to feel like they can come to me to talk about their struggles, and that I am open to support them with forgiveness/compassion/and grace.  I talk about my struggles, not in a depressed sad way, but in a matter of fact "this happened' and we picked up and move on. Yep, feel the feels. Yep, be depressed. Yep, it sucks. But, do what you need to do, to live your life and get on with it. Lick your wounds. Take your time.  IT may not be a grand life. It most likely isn't the life you even want! But, if you perseverate on it, you will get worse and it isn't going to get any better. 

The difference between xh and I, are brain chemistry. His brain tries to keep him wallowing in negativity. My brain tries to bring me up. Sometimes, you do have to put on a smile and just get on with the day. It doesn't mean you don't have hurt. It is all about how much the hurt, tears down the rest of your life in the process. My xh seemed happy, but lost jobs, me, and almost his kids due to the damage his depression caused (the kids had to forgive a lot to allow him to stay in their life). Any time he wasn't 'medicating' with pleasure seeking activities (hanging with friends etc), he wasn't inwardly happy/content. On meds, he is a very different person and much more effective at living a real life.

[elegantlion]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

But at least for me, it was good to have a space where it was safe to be authentic - and it hurt immensely when folks I considered friends distanced themselves because I wasn't able to be the energetic, smiling, giving person they had come to know. Opened my eyes about the fake fair-weather "sisterhood

 

Yeah, I guess that is the bottom line: when one needs and wants it, it’s a lifeline to have someone whom you absolutely trust, who can deal with your not-okay-ness, but at the same time, if one *doesn’t* want that - or not with these given people - that’s okay too. 

I get the trust thing. At this point, there are only a few people I trust enough to compltely honest with about my feelings and I'm not dealing with depression, just frustration. I also got burned by a church group many years ago that I trusted with information I should not have. 

My mom used to be convinced that my son is somehow hiding his feelings because of the crappy life situations we've had in the last few year, including the death of his father. My son is stoic and kind of sees the crap as just life. 

On one hand, if you look at the situation of the world in the last few years, how can you not be troubled? But depression is not situational frustration. I am frustrated and angry about some of my life situations but I don't tell people because the situation is not going to change by me venting to the world. To be frank, for most people it's none of their business. My "community" is more selective than it used to be and I'm okay with that. 

[katilac]

Yes, I think you are misunderstanding it. 

It's also nothing new; Richard Cory was written in 1897, after all. 

Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
'Good-morning,' and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich - yes, richer than a king -
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.

Richard Cory, by Edwin Arlington Robinson

[katilac]

9 hours ago, Quill said:

 actual clinical definition of depression (quoting from the Mayo Clinic, here) symptoms that are "severe enough to cause noticeably problems in relationships with others or in day-to-day activities." 
 

Yes, but I guess that’s my point. Like, I’m starting to wonder if some people are getting the message that everyone who *seems* fine might really be one of these smiling depression people and maybe they are not fine at all. But what would anybody want, even if that were true? 
 

You shared that you’re having a difficult time…do you want people to know that/ask about it? 
 

It reminds me of a time when I went to a women’s church retreat and there was this weird forced intimacy where I guess they wanted everyone to end up huddled in a sobbing prayer circle. There was a lot of that, “Give God your pain, he can handle it!” And I was just like, “Ummm…‘scuse me; bathroom break…” 😒

It's impossible to know what any specific person would want. If you know someone is having a difficult time, for whatever reason, it's never a bad thing to offer a listening ear and let them know you're there for them. If you can continue to let someone know you're thinking of them, even when they don't have the energy to think of you, that can be a very kind thing to do.

But none of that is the same as trying to force intimacy, and you seem to be conflating the two to some extent. That friend of yours, who wants the big sob-session? She doesn't act that way because she saw a meme about smiling depression. Some people have that personality in a very genuine way, where they are far more open to sharing about life and being openly emotional than some of us are comfortable with. And some of them are just nosey, sure, but both those types of people have been around forever. 

 

9 hours ago, Quill said:

Yeah, I guess that is the bottom line: when one needs and wants it, it’s a lifeline to have someone whom you absolutely trust, who can deal with your not-okay-ness, but at the same time, if one *doesn’t* want that - or not with these given people - that’s okay too. 

Sure, of course. But I don't understand where you're getting the idea that increasing awareness of a certain type of atypical depression is somehow at odds with that? I have occasionally seen memes encouraging people to check in with their "strong" friends, their "always okay" friends, but never coupled with a reference to depression or smiling depression. Either way, checking in is exactly that and nothing more. People with boundary issues don't get to blame them on this. 

I'd guess that the purpose of increasing awareness is less about "go check on everyone who's smiling, stat!" and more about "don't ignore potential signs of depression because the person otherwise seems so unlike your internal image of a depressed person."

If a person loses interest in beloved hobbies, don't think they can't possibly be depressed because they're going to work everyday and interacting socially. If a person sleeps sixteen hours a day when they can, don't think they can't possibly be depressed because they can get up earlier for a specific responsibility. If a person makes a comment about their life not mattering, don't think they can't possibly be depressed because they laughed so hard at that funny movie earlier. 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by katilac

[Arcadia]

34 minutes ago, katilac said:

But none of that is the same as trying to force intimacy, and you seem to be conflating the two to some extent. That friend of yours, who wants the big sob-session? She doesn't act that way because she saw a meme about smiling depression. Some people have that personality in a very genuine way, where they are far more open to sharing about life and being openly emotional than some of us are comfortable with. And some of them are just nosey, sure, but both those types of people have been around forever. 

Or the person could be like me, just offering a good friend the chance to cry their heart out while I supply tissues and just being there. I haven’t seen any memes about smiling depression, just seen what smiling depression can look like in real life among close friends. 

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Eh, this is starting to feel a bit..idk...

It's an interesting problem to have, that everyone wants you to share about your hard times instead of being all 'buck up buttercup, cheer up and have a nice bath!' The latter is WAY more common, in my experience. (Baths are nice, sure. Shame they don't cure).

It's fine if you want to dismiss 'smiling depression' as untrue or being a mh snowflake or being socially memefied. Every one is entitled to an opinion. 

It does play into some less than helpful assumptions about how depression looks, imho. 

 

To get way too personal for my typical comfort level… lol.
I don’t even have “hard times” to share. I mean, there are a couple of stressors in my life like anyone else’s plus, you know, the 2020s in general, but my own actual life is in a pretty sweet spot right now. Dh and I emote and commiserate with each other and then we roll our eyes and laugh at ourselves over the “ridiculousness” of it all when it’s out loud.  I’m not situationally depressed.  I have occasional bouts that generally do not have an identifiable trigger.  *Generally.
(My anxiety is a whole different animal.)

I am my own “Buck up, buttercup” voice, and I know my own best tools, which actually ARE the standard food, exercise, sleep, and do something happy methods. But getting there can sometimes be a huge mountain to climb. Occasionally, it’s relatively simple, so yay for those times! It still makes the trite suggestions annoying.

But that’s also why I talk to so few people about it. Everyone wants to know the why, and they’re not satisfied with the idea that this is my brain, probably thanks to genetic predispositions. (Sorry, kids!)

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 @Quill - thank you for beginning a necessary conversation. It may be difficult but just asking questions, listening to a variety of opinions, and having it 'out there' for others to read and learn from is wonderful. Think of the conversations or private musings that may have stemmed from your questions. 

((Quill))

[lauraw4321]

16 hours ago, Quill said:I’ve been thinking, isn’t it okay to go through a season where you’ve got issues, without everyone having to hear about it? 

Yes, it’s ok to not share with EVERYONE, but it isn’t ok to not share with ANYONE. There’s tremendous pressure to normalize - to just act normal. That pressure can result in people not admitting they need help until it’s too late. 

[Farrar]

The sharing thing is interesting. I do like to share and see it as a piece of a close friendship. I like to have that whole sharing of burdens element in a friendship. But I have different kinds of friendships - and I like that I have some that don't have that element at all and I can't imagine pushing that on those particular friends unless it evolved organically. And I have absolutely been in situations where everything begins to seem forced and manipulative.

I dislike it the most when everyone assumes my experience is the same as their experience - that's the piece that makes the whole "share" thing rough to me. Like if you say you're dealing with something or in a particular situation and people just assume that your emotional process about it or your feelings and views about it will be the same. - whether it's marriage or parenting or mental state.

Like, this is sort of different, but lately I feel like I've been in lots of conversations about parenting teens with friends. And it's not like my teens can't be difficult - and one of them had a bout with mental illness a couple of years ago that was a little scary. But for the most part, my teens are excellent and my relationship with them isn't perfect but is just fine overall. Only there's often this forced "we are all parents of teens and therefore we are miserable and it's the worst and teens are horrible" camaraderie that has a LOT of assumptions involved. And breaking out of that is tough. Like, what are you supposed to say - "MY TEENS are wonderful!" - because OMG, so snippy and superior! And sure, there are gentler ways to do it, but when the attitude is assuming that you have a certain experience and need a particular type of support - then pushing back can be read so poorly no matter how adeptly you do it.

[SKL]

Yeah I think, for me anyway, how do we know if we're psychologically not well vs. just experiencing normal ups and downs of life?  How do we teach our kids to know this?

I mean life has ups and downs.

If you never have ups ... if you consistently feel crappy even when wonderful things happen, even when everyone else is genuinely beaming, then I guess that's a problem.

I suspect I have my own actual stuff that distorts my perception of these things.  So I don't know if I'm doing it right for my kids.  I've had suicidal thoughts so many thousands of times, beginning in puberty and as recently as last night, but how normal is that?  I mean it's normal for me, so ....

I will be the first person to say that mental health issues need attention, but the side effect of that is that now, kids are fed a steady daily diet of "information" on mental health (via tiktok etc.); and like the college psychology students of my day, they start self-diagnosing, seeing things that aren't there, fearing healthy emotions, wanting drugs to dull real life.  It's a tough thing to navigate as a parent of teens.

Speaking of which, if anyone has a good resource to help today's parents think through this, let me know.  🙂

[Lecka]

I have felt like that with being supposed to complain about husbands, with bonding being over complaining about husbands.  
 

Not lately, but when I was younger, I often felt like social groups went that direction.  
 

I haven’t had it as much with teens, but I am trending towards being around older social groups where people have grown kids.  It’s a lot nicer for me, because I can easily feel like there is some kind of competitive thing about my kids when talking to other people, and it’s just not a good basis of “the main thing we have in common” for me.  
 

Well on the overall topic — I totally can see op’s point of view, and it sounds like some people are pushy about things.

 

But at the same time, I think people with depression can fake not being depressed (and I don’t think that is the only thing being meant by the terms) and I think it is a huge problem and something to be aware of.  Do I think it is so common as to put a bunch of memes out?  No.

 

I think some people post memes either to re-post to be meaningful to a friend, and it’s kind-of auto-repost, but also — just to show solidarity and be meaningful that way, but it’s not like they put a lot of thought and meaning into it, or their Facebook is really representing them on a real, true level, and not just — reposting things.

 

And then I think other people post things like that as a bid for support, and do receive support from it, which may or may not be visible on Facebook.  

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

I will be the first person to say that mental health issues need attention, but the side effect of that is that now, kids are fed a steady daily diet of "information" on mental health (via tiktok etc.); and like the college psychology students of my day, they start self-diagnosing, seeing things that aren't there, fearing healthy emotions, wanting drugs to dull real life.  It's a tough thing to navigate as a parent of teens.

Yes. This is it for me exactly. It's like the joke about first year psych students suddenly having all the mental illnesses or projecting them onto everyone they know. Only instead of for a single semester when they're 18/19, it's like, from age 13-25 nonstop.

[TechWife]

16 hours ago, Quill said:

It reminds me of a time when I went to a women’s church retreat and there was this weird forced intimacy where I guess they wanted everyone to end up huddled in a sobbing prayer circle. There was a lot of that, “Give God your pain, he can handle it!” And I was just like, “Ummm…‘scuse me; bathroom break…” 😒

I avoid Women’s events whenever possible for this very reason. So much manipulation takes place - and much of the time the concern and any community built at there is extremely shallow and short lived - as in no one recognizes you the next week short.