New York might ban legacy admissions and early decision

[kokotg]

Quote

A bill was introduced Wednesday in the New York Assembly and Senate to bar public and private colleges in the state from offering either legacy admissions preferences or early decision.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2022/03/10/new-york-bill-would-ban-legacy-admissions-and-early-decision?fbclid=IwAR30cnNht750QmsuKaAKELkNepgUt1VoT-qpSPnB5aH28XEoOIBGfmg-04Y

Interesting. 

[8filltheheart]

Legacy I can understand, but wow, getting rid of ED could hugely impact the application cycle for NY schools vs. other elites.

[kokotg]

15 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Legacy I can understand, but wow, getting rid of ED could hugely impact the application cycle for NY schools vs. other elites.

Yes, I'm surprised they're lumping them together (although I understand why they are, and it makes sense)

[Farrar]

If they bar ED, I predict a rise of SCEA/REA at elite schools instead.

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

If they bar ED, I predict a rise of SCEA/REA at elite schools instead.

I'd love to see that, I think. My issue with ED isn't having to pick a favorite school, it's not being able to compare FA packages (or even see one from the school of choice) before committing. 

[Farrar]

Just now, kokotg said:

I'd love to see that, I think. My issue with ED isn't having to pick a favorite school, it's not being able to compare FA packages (or even see one from the school of choice) before committing. 

Yeah. I don't disagree, but I do see students throw away the EA bump they need on applying SCEA to Harvard when it's never going to happen for them so as the system stands now, I think it's just a giant trap.

[Dmmetler]

We used EA last year because we needed to see financial aid. At least at Agnes Scott, you needed to apply ED or EA to have a chance at the good scholarships because the scholarship weekend was before Decision Day. There was no way we could have done ED and committed without knowing what finances would look like. 
 

In 20/20 hindsight, I do regret doing the RD common app applications at all, because we paid some money in fees and L wrote essays for schools that, by the time RD came around, were off the table due to having several excellent packages to choose from-and none came through with more than an acceptance letter anyway. But, it felt logical to try to get ALL the applications done by that October 1 ED/SCEA cutoff, especially due to the fact that the RD schools were all common app schools, as was the one EA one. 
 

[Roadrunner]

On 3/10/2022 at 1:09 PM, Farrar said:

Yeah. I don't disagree, but I do see students throw away the EA bump they need on applying SCEA to Harvard when it's never going to happen for them so as the system stands now, I think it's just a giant trap.

Do you think there is a substantial enough ED benefit for a non hooked kid to bother with it? One of the high school counselors locally was telling me ED is really if you know somebody there, sports, URM… and everybody else gets differed. 

And do you think ED benefits are more substantial at LACs versus larger private schools?

Just curious. 
 

[Farrar]

51 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Do you think there is a substantial enough ED benefit for a non hooked kid to bother with it? One of the high school counselors locally was telling me ED is really if you know somebody there, sports, URM… and everybody else gets differed. 

And do you think ED benefits are more substantial at LACs versus larger private schools?

Just curious. 
 

It depends on the school, not the kid. In a way, ED is the hook. You're a sure thing for the school and so if your money if you're bringing any to the table.

Beyond the Ivy+ level of schools, yes, a pretty substantial benefit at most schools (there are a handful where it's not really though or not enough of one to justify using it if you're at all on the bubble). At that Ivy+ level, your local counselor's right that the higher acceptance rates are misleading. But it's pretty easy to look at the stats and see that they're not right overall. I mean, look at American. Class of 2024, ED acceptance was more than 83%, RD was 36%. They got something like half their class from ED. That's not all athletes and legacy. AU is an extreme example, but they're not alone. It's a boost.

ED is for if you're rich enough to pay or if you're poor enough that you need a needs met school. But I think most folks know that.

[Roadrunner]

28 minutes ago, Farrar said:

It depends on the school, not the kid. In a way, ED is the hook. You're a sure thing for the school and so if your money if you're bringing any to the table.

Beyond the Ivy+ level of schools, yes, a pretty substantial benefit at most schools (there are a handful where it's not really though or not enough of one to justify using it if you're at all on the bubble). At that Ivy+ level, your local counselor's right that the higher acceptance rates are misleading. But it's pretty easy to look at the stats and see that they're not right overall. I mean, look at American. Class of 2024, ED acceptance was more than 83%, RD was 36%. They got something like half their class from ED. That's not all athletes and legacy. AU is an extreme example, but they're not alone. It's a boost.

ED is for if you're rich enough to pay or if you're poor enough that you need a needs met school. But I think most folks know that.

What about LACs? Should we assume little benefit for the top 10 but much more substantial benefit further down?

I hate rankings, but I just don’t know what other language I can use. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

What about LACs? Should we assume little benefit for the top 10 but much more substantial benefit further down?

I hate rankings, but I just don’t know what other language I can use. 

I'd say look at the stats in as much as they're released (some schools don't share). In general you're right that the bump gets bigger as the school's acceptance rates are higher and rankings are lower. But not always. 

Really, ED is if you're really in love with a school though. Don't let a kid choose based on name and some rankings.

[Roadrunner]

53 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I'd say look at the stats in as much as they're released (some schools don't share). In general you're right that the bump gets bigger as the school's acceptance rates are higher and rankings are lower. But not always. 

Really, ED is if you're really in love with a school though. Don't let a kid choose based on name and some rankings.

We have narrowed our search to “small town campus.” 🤣  Preferably not in CA. 

Not kidding. 
 

I am just trying to wrap my head if we will be doing a disservice to him not using ED. 

[madteaparty]

10 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Do you think there is a substantial enough ED benefit for a non hooked kid to bother with it? One of the high school counselors locally was telling me ED is really if you know somebody there, sports, URM… and everybody else gets differed. 

And do you think ED benefits are more substantial at LACs versus larger private schools?

Just curious. 
 

Well you know at least one school that heavily manages yield with ED1, ED2 😉

[kokotg]

12 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

ED is for if you're rich enough to pay or if you're poor enough that you need a needs met school. But I think most folks know that.

My oldest son applied to mostly needs met schools, and there were huge differences in FA packages between different needs-met schools (as much as $10-15,000/yr). I have a friend who had two kids do ED at different needs-met schools, and she was shocked by how much worse the FA package was for kid #2 than kid #1 (ETA: interestingly, kid #2s school was the school that my oldest got his BEST FA package from...so it's tough to predict). She's divorced and self-employed, so the NPCs were not very helpful for her. Unless you have a VERY straightforward financial situation and can plug numbers into a NPC and be confident of the results, I'd hesitate to do ED at all if you need significant FA. I'll consider letting my current 10th grader ED, but only because I've seen a lot of FA packages at this point (and I'll be more likely to okay it if we wants to apply somewhere we've already seen good FA (and, of course, there are others I'd veto because we've seen much less generous FA packages from them))

Edited March 13, 2022 by kokotg

[Farrar]

Just now, kokotg said:

My oldest son applied to mostly needs met schools, and there were huge differences in FA packages between different needs-met schools (as much as $10-15,000/yr). I have a friend who had two kids do ED at different needs-met schools, and she was shocked by how much worse the FA package was for kid #2 than kid #1. She's divorced and self-employed, so the NPCs were not very helpful for her. Unless you have a VERY straightforward financial situation and can plug numbers into a NPC and be confident of the results, I'd hesitate to do ED at all if you need significant FA. I'll consider letting my current 10th grader ED, but only because I've seen a lot of FA packages at this point (and I'll be more likely to okay it if we wants to apply somewhere we've already seen good FA (and, of course, there are others I'd veto because we've seen much less generous FA packages from them))

Families who have significant needs should really, really reach out and talk to financial aid beforehand. But you can potentially get a pre-read. Some schools - like Macalester, for example - have a really clearly outlined process for this. But many others will do it - they'll tell you just how much they'll give you if a kid gets in. It makes ED a lot easier. Honestly, I think it's more imperative for kids with significant need. They need that bump more and they need a needs-met school. I have big problems with ED, but as long as it exists, I really think families who have high financial need have to use it when they can. And yes, there are going to be complicated situations (especially for divorced families) where they can't. But a lot more families can than do. 

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Families who have significant needs should really, really reach out and talk to financial aid beforehand. But you can potentially get a pre-read. Some schools - like Macalester, for example - have a really clearly outlined process for this. But many others will do it - they'll tell you just how much they'll give you if a kid gets in. It makes ED a lot easier. Honestly, I think it's more imperative for kids with significant need. They need that bump more and they need a needs-met school. I have big problems with ED, but as long as it exists, I really think families who have high financial need have to use it when they can. And yes, there are going to be complicated situations (especially for divorced families) where they can't. But a lot more families can than do. 

It's good to know a lot of schools will do that; aside from finances, my oldest also didn't ED because he didn't really have a clear favorite (and ED isn't an option for most music schools, so it didn't come up with current senior)...but after watching him go through the March of a 1000 Waitlists, it would have been nice to spare him that, in retrospect. But then he'd maybe be at Grinnell right now, and it would have been much harder to get him to the airport 🙂 

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, kokotg said:

It's good to know a lot of schools will do that; aside from finances, my oldest also didn't ED because he didn't really have a clear favorite (and ED isn't an option for most music schools, so it didn't come up with current senior)...but after watching him go through the March of a 1000 Waitlists, it would have been nice to spare him that, in retrospect. But then he'd maybe be at Grinnell right now, and it would have been much harder to get him to the airport 🙂 

I mean, even though ED gives a bump, it's hardly a guarantee of anything. And it really is not for everyone. For a kid with a really low EFC who absolutely needs it covered to have an option at all (like, if even state schools are out of reach), then I'd urge them to try and find a school where they feel comfortable about the needs met policy and their own finances and where they can see themselves and then use that ED shot and hope for the best - both that they'll get in, but also that it's the right school for them because they're committing early if they get in. They're trading the option of picking and choosing later for the chance to go in on one with a bit of a stacked deck. When you're a kid who is going to have options no matter what, then ED is a luxury or a privilege for the rich who want to use it.

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

I mean, even though ED gives a bump, it's hardly a guarantee of anything. And it really is not for everyone. For a kid with a really low EFC who absolutely needs it covered to have an option at all (like, if even state schools are out of reach), then I'd urge them to try and find a school where they feel comfortable about the needs met policy and their own finances and where they can see themselves and then use that ED shot and hope for the best - both that they'll get in, but also that it's the right school for them because they're committing early if they get in. They're trading the option of picking and choosing later for the chance to go in on one with a bit of a stacked deck. When you're a kid who is going to have options no matter what, then ED is a luxury or a privilege for the rich who want to use it.

Yes, but I am looking at Davidson (among others) in NC and it looks like the gap between ED and RD is huge!

So for colleges like Davidson, I wonder if we will end up with just a long list of waitlists if we don’t jump at ED. 
Sigh.

I wish we could travel to all of those places, but we can’t afford to do that time wise either. 

[Eos]

Following this.  I am on the verge of having the conversation with youngest that she can only apply to meets-need schools.  She has two on her list to go visit that are not, but I am reluctant to even visit - what the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't yearn for. 

@Farrar and @Sebastian (a lady)I'm curious if you have thoughts about this: most of the meets-need schools are also need aware - do you think it's a red flag to ask for a pre-read, because it tells them you are high need and will therefore have a harder time at a need-aware school?

In my dreams, the original headline would be that NY or everywhere scrapping need-aware admissions in favor of need-blind or even need-affirmative.  Sigh.

[Farrar]

21 minutes ago, Eos said:

Following this.  I am on the verge of having the conversation with youngest that she can only apply to meets-need schools.  She has two on her list to go visit that are not, but I am reluctant to even visit - what the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't yearn for. 

@Farrar and @Sebastian (a lady)I'm curious if you have thoughts about this: most of the meets-need schools are also need aware - do you think it's a red flag to ask for a pre-read, because it tells them you are high need and will therefore have a harder time at a need-aware school?

In my dreams, the original headline would be that NY or everywhere scrapping need-aware admissions in favor of need-blind or even need-affirmative.  Sigh.

Well, they're going to see your finances anyway, so they know. It's not like you're hiding anything from them. So it's a choice between asking first or rolling the dice. Not all schools will give a pre-read. But it's always worth asking.

As for whether the pre-read hurts, not in my experience.

Given the small overall acceptance rates for meets need schools - and the fact that many of them definitely make it harder to get in if a student has higher need - then I would personally never recommend that a student only apply to needs met schools. There has to be a backup, even if it's a community college or a smaller state school that has a cheap sticker price or awards heavy scholarship money.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Farrar

[kokotg]

30 minutes ago, Eos said:

Following this.  I am on the verge of having the conversation with youngest that she can only apply to meets-need schools.  She has two on her list to go visit that are not, but I am reluctant to even visit - what the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't yearn for. 

@Farrar and @Sebastian (a lady)I'm curious if you have thoughts about this: most of the meets-need schools are also need aware - do you think it's a red flag to ask for a pre-read, because it tells them you are high need and will therefore have a harder time at a need-aware school?

In my dreams, the original headline would be that NY or everywhere scrapping need-aware admissions in favor of need-blind or even need-affirmative.  Sigh.

A need aware school is already going to be looking at your finances when they make decisions. My understanding is that at a need blind school there is no communication pre-decision between the FA office and admissions, so it shouldn't matter (there are, of course, usually other "tells" on an application that a kid is likely to need a lot of FA). With my oldest kid we didn't pay much attention to need blind vs. need aware schools when he was deciding where to apply. We'll pay a lot more attention with kid #3, as I do think it made a difference (particularly for the MOST selective schools--the top 20 or so per USNWR). 

There are a lot of schools out there that don't guarantee they'll meet need but that generally come pretty close; we found a couple of safeties for my oldest kid that offered him a good, competitive mix of merit and need based aid and would have been affordable (including one full ride). You can look at the common data set for what percentage of need schools meet...there are some where it's not 100 but it is 80 or 90% on average (and they'll often offer more for a kid they really want).

[Eos]

The two she's looking at meet close to full need, but the NPCs still gave us terrible numbers.  Only three of us in a household makes a dramatic difference - my older three all got Pell grants, but this one won't and we're not making any more money than we used to.  In theory we should have more disposable income because fewer kids but now we're paying PLUS loans, which is where all that will go for the foreseeable future.  Many people here are vociferously anti-loan but for us, that's all we have after financial aid.

[kokotg]

19 minutes ago, Eos said:

The two she's looking at meet close to full need, but the NPCs still gave us terrible numbers.  Only three of us in a household makes a dramatic difference - my older three all got Pell grants, but this one won't and we're not making any more money than we used to.  

I'm very nervous about that scenario with my youngest. I guess I need to take as much advantage as possible of the gap we get after my current 10th grader with no one in college to save some money if we can.

Edited March 14, 2022 by kokotg

[8filltheheart]

3 hours ago, Eos said:

The two she's looking at meet close to full need, but the NPCs still gave us terrible numbers.  Only three of us in a household makes a dramatic difference - my older three all got Pell grants, but this one won't and we're not making any more money than we used to.  In theory we should have more disposable income because fewer kids but now we're paying PLUS loans, which is where all that will go for the foreseeable future.  Many people here are vociferously anti-loan but for us, that's all we have after financial aid.

If she is competitive enough for acceptance at a meets full need school, she is most likely competitive enough for high dollar scholarships.  I would never want to stress out a student by putting all options in only 2 schools where either acceptance or FA package making it work are not pretty much givens.  I would really encourage at least 2 applications at schools with generous scholarships or low costs.  I say 2 in case neither of the 2 meets need schools work out; that way she will still feel like she has some choice.

[catz]

21 hours ago, Eos said:

Many people here are vociferously anti-loan but for us, that's all we have after financial aid.

I actually think parent loans can be a useful tool for parents that need to cover a gap and understand the ramifications on their budget.  Assuming the parent can afford them and is planning on paying them off and isn't cosigning huge amounts over federal loans for an 18 year old who doesn't know what they're getting into.  I think that is risky and you can go read plenty of sad stories after the fact on reddit student loans boards.  I started following that board when we were considering options for my oldest.  

There is plenty of data out there indicating the ED process favors the wealthy.  

[Farrar]

I'm not against parents taking on some debt themselves necessarily, depending on circumstances. If we need to, we'll take out of the equity in the house, for example. I'm definitely not against students taking the full federal loan amount. But if the PLUS loans are usually not a great long term financial decision for parents. The financial end is not my area of expertise, but everything I've read suggests those PLUS loans are bad news in the vast majority of situations. 😞

[Eos]

22 hours ago, Farrar said:

I'm not against parents taking on some debt themselves necessarily, depending on circumstances. If we need to, we'll take out of the equity in the house, for example. I'm definitely not against students taking the full federal loan amount. But if the PLUS loans are usually not a great long term financial decision for parents. The financial end is not my area of expertise, but everything I've read suggests those PLUS loans are bad news in the vast majority of situations. 😞

Yes, they are much much higher interest than federal student loans.  Our oldest vowed to pay our PLUS loans and did, though we also did some.  He was going to have a chem engineering degree and solid job prospects when he made his college choice, and we trusted him.  It worked out well for him, but I also don't believe 19 year olds have true informed choice because they cannot see what that level of debt will really mean. 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Eos

[Matryoshka]

On 3/14/2022 at 4:58 PM, Farrar said:

Given the small overall acceptance rates for meets need schools - and the fact that many of them definitely make it harder to get in if a student has higher need - then I would personally never recommend that a student only apply to needs met schools. There has to be a backup, even if it's a community college or a smaller state school that has a cheap sticker price or awards heavy scholarship money.

Also realize that 'meets need' is a completely subjective thing.  The one 'meets need' school my dd applied to ended up with the highest price tag - because they somehow decided that we could pay double our EFC, so they only met up to that number.  Sure, they gave a lot of financial aid in comparison to their listed price tag, but since their listed price tag was astronomical (most meets-need schools are), they could give us over a state school's price tag in financial aid and still end up costing us twice as much as a state school.

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Also realize that 'meets need' is a completely subjective thing.  The one 'meets need' school my dd applied to ended up with the highest price tag - because they somehow decided that we could pay double our EFC, so they only met up to that number.  Sure, they gave a lot of financial aid in comparison to their listed price tag, but since their listed price tag was astronomical (most meets-need schools are), they could give us over a state school's price tag in financial aid and still end up costing us twice as much as a state school.

Which is yet another reason everyone should use net price calculators at the specific school and contact financial aid before deciding to ED anywhere. A lot of the gap between the EFC and the package can be the school's calculations according to the CSS profile.

[catz]

17 hours ago, Farrar said:

I'm not against parents taking on some debt themselves necessarily, depending on circumstances. If we need to, we'll take out of the equity in the house, for example. I'm definitely not against students taking the full federal loan amount. But if the PLUS loans are usually not a great long term financial decision for parents. The financial end is not my area of expertise, but everything I've read suggests those PLUS loans are bad news in the vast majority of situations. 😞

Oh I totally agree.  If you qualify for an equity or private loan of some kind the terms are typically WAY better.  Parent plus are also really risky because they give them without analyzing your finances at all so you really have to know what you're doing..  We've been able to avoid loans kid #1 but we have considered a  home equity loan of some kind.  We actually paid our home off the year before kid #1 graduated which was some great timing.  There was definitely some luck involved with that, but did also take some sacrifice and planning.  

[GoodGrief3]

On 3/12/2022 at 7:06 PM, Roadrunner said:

I am just trying to wrap my head if we will be doing a disservice to him not using ED. 

ED really only makes sense if the student 100% knows that is the school they want, and you feel confident you can pay. You CAN back out of an ED agreement for financial reasons, but it's best to have a clear picture of finances before the application is submitted,