Does accreditation matter for outsourced courses?

[EKT]

So far, we have only outsourced one class - French I with WTMA. I felt really good starting with WTMA because I love SWB and I trust her reputation; I figured we couldn't really go wrong with an accredited institution. (I have not been disappointed; my daughter loves her French class!) 

I am considering expanding to other sorts of courses from other providers (PA Homeschoolers, Brave Writer, etc.). I've heard lots of names of other providers thrown around on these boards (Blue Tent, etc.) but don't really know anything about most of them. I'm curious: Do colleges care about providers and their accreditation status at all? I feel like PA Homeschoolers is a pretty safe bet, since the course itself is College-Board authorized and there will be an AP test score at the end. And the same thing applies if we end up doing DE; those courses are obviously offered through a "legit" community college. But I'm debating whether it's better just to do other courses ourselves at home vs. use an outside provider. (I guess I'm worried that colleges might assume courses from an unaccredited institution are not rigorous or otherwise have dubious value or whatever. Do they care where your student took various courses?) To be sure, I don't necessarily care about accreditation; I've taught (and my kids have taken) excellent classes at our old, home-grown homeschool co-op! But at the same time, now that we're at the high school level, these outsourced courses are expensive, and I'm trying to discern if they're "worth" it. I don't want to drop $600-$800 on a course that colleges might look down on. 

On a related note: Do you always even list the outside provider when you've used one? Or do your course descriptions just stick to what your student learned? (For example, I may eventually sign my daughter up for Brave Writer's MLA research paper course. Do I have any obligation to disclose that she did the hypothetical research paper through Brave Writer, or can I just wrap that activity up into our own English 11 plans, and mention that my daughter completed an MLA research paper as part of our course? Another example: If your student takes, say, chemistry from Blue Tent, do you have to say so? Or can you just list chemistry on your transcript and in your course description list all the things your student learned in chemistry, as if you taught the course yourself? I'm not out to deceive at all; just genuinely curious what the norm is.) 

Would love to hear how others vet and describe their outsourced courses. Thanks!

Edited March 10, 2022 by EKT

[Lori D.]

Is there a need for "accredited" for some reason?

Accreditation means that a school or course provider has submitted to the process of an accrediting agency. Accreditation is only as good as the agency doing the accrediting. There are 7 Regional Accreditors that are the standard recognized agencies of primary/secondary education accreditation, so if a school or online course provider has received "accreditation" by some organization other than these, the "accreditation" may not be worth much.

Note: If you are thinking "accredited diploma" and that "accredited" outsourced providers will yield that -- no, it does not work that way. An "accredited diploma" comes from paying for an accredited umbrella organization to oversee your course selections and your record keeping, and they award the diploma when their criteria are met.

Also note: If you are thinking "accredited" for NCAA core course purposes, then you need to check in advance with them about who is on their list of approved providers. "Accredited" is not a guarantee that it will be accepted by

If it is for CA a-g requirements, again, like NCAA, you need to check their list of approved providers, and not assume that an "accredited" online course provider will meet CA a-g requirements.

 

Okay, I got hung up on the "accreditation" in your post title of "Does accreditation matter for outsourced courses?", and hopefully others will be able to answer the actual questions in your post about how to select online courses and course providers. 😉 

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, EKT said:

...Do colleges care about providers and their accreditation status at all? ... (I guess I'm worried that colleges might assume courses from an unaccredited institution are not rigorous or otherwise have dubious value or whatever. Do they care where your student took various courses?) ...

No, colleges are not going to care about accreditation / lack of accreditation of an online provider.

Colleges accept coursework and diplomas from public school students who graduated from non-accredited high schools. (Yes, it is true -- not all high schools are accredited, which means the diplomas they award are not "accredited diplomas." Those students go to college with no problems.)

There are very very few course providers that colleges are going to be aware of. Lukeion is the only one that leaps to mind, because it is such a rigorous/advanced course provider.

 

1 hour ago, EKT said:

... Do you always even list the outside provider when you've used one? Or do your course descriptions just stick to what your student learned? (For example, I may eventually sign my daughter up for Brave Writer's MLA research paper course. Do I have any obligation to disclose that she did the hypothetical research paper through Brave Writer, or can I just wrap that activity up into our own English 11 plans, and mention that my daughter completed an MLA research paper as part of our course? Another example: If your student takes, say, chemistry from Blue Tent, do you have to say so? Or can you just list chemistry on your transcript and in your course description list all the things your student learned in chemistry, as if you taught the course yourself?

Some people footnote the transcript to list the course provider of each course (homeschool course, Blue Tent, PA Homeschool, Community College DE, etc.). Others only do that in the Course Description document. If you do the later, not all colleges even ask for/want a Course Description document, so it will be a moot point for the college about where/how each and every course your student completes happened.

[kokotg]

For the most part, I'd say no--most colleges won't care. But I've talked before about how my state flagship (university of Georgia) is very picky about homeschool applications, and requires proof of completion of core subjects either through testing or a course completed at an accredited school. So it was helpful that the place my oldest had taken a couple of science classes had gone through the process to get accredited. But if he had had an AP score in those subjects that also would have worked. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by kokotg

[Farrar]

No.

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

If it is for CA a-g requirements, again, like NCAA, you need to check their list of approved providers, and not assume that an "accredited" online course provider will meet CA a-g requirements.

This is a bit misleading. Independent homeschoolers (PSA) in California cannot meet A-G approval requirements. Many PSA families are also confused about this. Even the approved list has to additionally be a choice the charter will allow. So the charter is the place that charter families need to ask what will count as A-G. And PSA students need not bother with this. It's not a trick. If a PSA student (or any student, anywhere in the US in school or homeschooled!) is planning on applying to the UC's, then they need to check all the boxes for A-G coursework. But they do not need to take A-G approved courses. Because they can't. Like, even a student in a public school in say, Iowa, can't do that. Or in a private school in California. Only public school students (including charter) can. So basically... this is moot for independent homeschoolers.

[royspeed]

EKT:

Some admissions officers harbor concerns about homeschooling, and there are indeed things that colleges really care about. But accreditation is not one of them.

[Arcadia]

tmi

Edited March 25, 2022 by Arcadia

[kokotg]

I'm always surprised by the universality of the "accreditation doesn't matter" answers on these threads. Is UGA literally the only major college in the country that does care? Because that's some bad luck on my kids' part, if true (more other Georgia homeschoolers/OOS kids considering UGA, since my kids probably don't want to go there anyway--although it made my oldest's top 4 or so). 

https://www.admissions.uga.edu/admissions/first-year/home-educated-students/

Quote

If a student is home-educated or attends a non-accredited high school, he or she must demonstrate their academic ability through standardized test scores and/or accredited course work. The student must also be able to validate completion of all CPC subject areas through submission of the following:

• Official scores from the SAT or ACT (for math and English only), SAT II, International Baccalaureate (IB) and/or Advanced Placement (AP) exams
• Coursework for credit that appears on an official college or an accredited high school transcript

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by kokotg

[royspeed]

35 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I'm always surprised by the universality of the "accreditation doesn't matter" answers on these threads.

kokotg: 

When we needed to outsource a course, the strategy we pursued with both our kids was to defuse any concerns among admissions officers about all our students' coursework, including not just unaccredited courses but courses done at home, or anything resembling "mommy" grades or credits.

To implement this strategy, we did two things:

1. identified the best instruction we could find & afford — and the key criterion was not accreditation but excellent teaching;
2. include coursework that would help validate all the other credits & grades.

To illustrate the second point above: In their junior & senior years, both our kids took courses at a local university*, where they not only got As but formed relationships with their professors. As a result, both students' portfolios included letters of recommendation from their university professors.

Each of our students interviewed at a number of colleges, and not one of them asked about accredited courses. Also, both of our students received significant merit aid, and as a result, both are graduating college debt-free (one of our aims).

So in an earlier posting I wrote: Some admissions officers harbor concerns about homeschooling, and there are indeed things that colleges really care about. But accreditation is not one of them. — In other words, admissions officers want to know that your student has done quality work throughout the high school years, but they don't imagine that accreditation is the only way to demonstrate quality.

Just one more point: My wife and I, as teachers ourselves & vendors of honors-level instruction, looked into getting our courses accredited. We were dismayed by the meaningless and mercenary process involved — basically a matter of paying thousands of dollars to some agency to award us a piece of paper.

Hope this is helpful.

__________________________________________
* Courses at a local university, not a local community college, where — in our area, at any rate — the quality of the teaching seems a roll of the dice and, more often than not, mediocre or even appalling.

[kokotg]

16 minutes ago, royspeed said:

kokotg: 

When we needed to outsource a course, the strategy we pursued with both our kids was to defuse any concerns among admissions officers about all our students' coursework, including not just unaccredited courses but courses done at home, or anything resembling "mommy" grades or credits.

To implement this strategy, we did two things:

1. identified the best instruction we could find & afford — and the key criterion was not accreditation but excellent teaching;
2. include coursework that would help validate all the other credits & grades.

 

Yes, we do all of that, too. My kids have a good many AP credits and DE credits at a local university--and that's worked very well for the vast majority of colleges they've applied to...but my situation is that my state flagship very specifically requires either test scores or accredited courses for every core subject (and I've had e-mail contact with admissions people there to, basically, ask if they really mean it, and they assure me they do. Not only do they require these things, but I was advised to make sure my kid finished all the core courses before senior year so they could verify them). So, for example, my current 10th grader will graduate with a whole bunch of AP and DE, but if he wanted to apply to UGA he'd be tripped up because he did biology at home in 9th grade...he'd have to retake it somewhere accredited or take the AP exam if he wanted to apply because they require evidence of completion of biology. It was less of an issue (though still required a lot of early planning) before subject tests went away.

ETA: for us it's not a huge deal because we qualify for enough need based aid that private needs-met colleges out of state come out about the same as state school costs, and so far they're a better fit for my kids anyway. But tuition at Georgia public colleges covered by lottery money, so for high achieving upper middle class kids, UGA is a very attractive option, and it's frustrating that they make admission so complicated for homeschoolers. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by kokotg

[royspeed]

8 minutes ago, kokotg said:

... my situation is that my state flagship very specifically requires either test scores or accredited courses for every core subject ...

[bolding mine]

So sorry to hear that, kokotg! — Such requirements are onerous but in our experience rare.

They may, however, be more common in state schools...

[Farrar]

3 hours ago, kokotg said:

I'm always surprised by the universality of the "accreditation doesn't matter" answers on these threads. Is UGA literally the only major college in the country that does care? Because that's some bad luck on my kids' part, if true (more other Georgia homeschoolers/OOS kids considering UGA, since my kids probably don't want to go there anyway--although it made my oldest's top 4 or so). 

https://www.admissions.uga.edu/admissions/first-year/home-educated-students/

 

It's the only one I know of that does it this way - and test scores can get you around it, which is an option for a lot of students that will be a lot easier anyway (definitely cheaper). SUNY schools require that you just be accredited period, so core courses is useless for them. Or have access to some things that homeschoolers can really only realistically get in NY. I have heard some stories of homeschoolers getting around it, but it's hard. Attending an online accredited school allows you to skip over some dumb requirements at some schools (and it's not allowed in NY anyway, so not for SUNY schools), it's really super minor things in the grand scheme of things - like Arizona schools' proof of lab sciences requirement. It would let a student skip over SAT/ACT at schools that are now test optional but not for homeschoolers, like Utah, but again, is this worth rethinking your whole high school education over? Probably not.

ETA: The one time I'd tell a family they should definitely do an accredited course is a kid bent on school in Europe. Like, a proper school in Europe, not an American school in Europe. Then it's really your easiest route. But again, accredited individual courses won't do anything. You need a whole school.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Farrar

[kokotg]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

It's the only one I know of that does it this way - and test scores can get you around it, which is an option for a lot of students that will be a lot easier anyway (definitely cheaper). 

The cheapest route here is DE, because the state covers the cost (up to 30 hours, I think it is)....testing works fine for most things, but it wouldn't make any sense for my non STEM kid who hates biology to take AP bio or to take a second year of it DE. The old solution was the biology subject test, but that disappeared unexpectedly when he was already in the middle of doing biology at home. And I knew all about the requirements from going through it with my older kid; other people get to 10th or 11th grade and start thinking about it, only to realize that the science or history their kids did in 9th and 10th grade are worthless for meeting the requirements. 

[Arcadia]

tmi

Edited March 25, 2022 by Arcadia

[Lilaclady]

On 3/10/2022 at 10:22 AM, kokotg said:

Not only do they require these things, but I was advised to make sure my kid finished all the core courses before senior year so they could verify them). So, for example, my current 10th grader will graduate with a whole bunch of AP and DE, but if he wanted to apply to UGA he'd be tripped up because he did biology at home in 9th grade...he'd have to retake it somewhere accredited or take the AP exam if he wanted to apply because they require evidence of completion of biology. It was less of an issue (though still required a lot of early planning) before subject tests went away.

 

I don’t believe this is true. I spoke with a counselor from there and what she said was- the student need validation in each core area- so in Lang arts one AP course/ test or one DE is ok, In math also one, same for social science, science and foreign lang- my oldest applied and got in with scholarships and not all her classes were AP nor DE but she had validation in each area as they accepted  AP comp sci A as validation for foreign Lang. 

[8filltheheart]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:04 AM, kokotg said:

I'm always surprised by the universality of the "accreditation doesn't matter" answers on these threads. Is UGA literally the only major college in the country that does care? Because that's some bad luck on my kids' part, if true (more other Georgia homeschoolers/OOS kids considering UGA, since my kids probably don't want to go there anyway--although it made my oldest's top 4 or so). 

https://www.admissions.uga.edu/admissions/first-year/home-educated-students/

 

GT doesnt. Dd didnt apply to URichmond bc they wanted proof for every subject. Eas iui or for us to skip schools with onerous requirements than jump through their hoops.

Edited March 18, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[SoCal_Bear]

29 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

GT doesnt. Dd didnt apply to URichmond bc they wanted proof for every subject. Eas iui or for us to skip schools with onerous requirements than jump through their hoops.

does GT mean Georgia Tech? This is a potential school I have in mind for the future and don't want to bother with schools requiring accreditation. Given what is happening around admissions in CA, many families are looking at OOS schools because things are so uncertain these days given testing is no longer a consideration for applying.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by calbear

[8filltheheart]

7 hours ago, calbear said:

does GT mean Georgia Tech? This is a potential school I have in mind for the future and don't want to bother with schools requiring accreditation. Given what is happening around admissions in CA, many families are looking at OOS schools because things are so uncertain these days given testing is no longer a consideration for applying.

 

 

Yes.  The only outsourced classes ds had were in math and science.  Everything else was at home with me with no "validation."  He was accepted, so it obviously wasn't a problem.  (Ds scratched it off of his list after meeting with the dean of the physics dept due to UG research limitations.)

[kokotg]

9 hours ago, Lilaclady said:

I don’t believe this is true. I spoke with a counselor from there and what she said was- the student need validation in each core area- so in Lang arts one AP course/ test or one DE is ok, In math also one, same for social science, science and foreign lang- my oldest applied and got in with scholarships and not all her classes were AP nor DE but she had validation in each area as they accepted  AP comp sci A as validation for foreign Lang. 

Interesting! That's definitely a lot less onerous than how I was interpreting it (though still slightly obnoxious. But I am somewhat sympathetic to the difficulties giant, selective universities face in evaluating homeschoolers). They also accept the SAT or ACT for English and math, so that's covered right away by the time you apply. I always interpreted "completion of all CPC subject areas" to mean everything on the University System of Georgia's freshman admission requirements: https://www.usg.edu/student_affairs/assets/student_affairs/documents/Staying_on_Course.pdf

(partially because that's what comes up when I search "CPC subject areas")

It's annoying that when I wrote to an admission counselor about my specific example (biology done at home in 9th grade, plan to take subject test thwarted when it was too late to change course), she didn't reassure me that he could take ANY science later in a way that fulfilled the requirement, but just repeated:

Quote

 If your student attends a non-accredited homeschool, then he will need to demonstrate proficiency in the each of the five core academic areas (English, math, science, social, science and foreign language) via a standardized source.

So I can definitely see how it can be interpreted the way it was explained to you, but it would have been nice if she'd clarified given my very specific question about biology! (Ari got in, too, but the only thing he was missing according to my narrower interpretation was biology, which was in progress senior year (what is it about biology and my family?!) Though I do remember freaking out a bit about trying to get his chemistry class transcript to them from the accredited but not very organized place where he took it--so knowing this back then would have saved me some stress (since he also had DE physics)! 

[kokotg]

9 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

GT doesnt. Dd didnt apply to URichmond bc they wanted proof for every subject. Eas iui or for us to skip schools with onerous requirements than jump through their hoops.

No, Georgia Tech's page about homeschooler admissions is much more in line with most other schools (which is to say fairly vague, with no real homeschool specific requirements other than stuff like course descriptions). Which is kind of funny because I remember the conventional wisdom when my oldest kids were little was that GT was very picky about lab sciences for homeschoolers. 

ETA: and I agree that it's easiest to just skip schools with particularly picky homeschool requirements in general, but I'm more concerned about my state flagship (particularly in a school with lottery-funded tuition; state schools in GA are MUCH more affordable than OOS for families that don't qualify for need based aid, with very few exceptions that I can think of). ETA again: for students who qualify for the lottery funded grants, that is, which is certainly any student who can get into UGA or Tech)

Edited March 18, 2022 by kokotg