Any railroad families on WTM? This is sad news.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

The video doesn't describe what is happening so here it is in a nutshell. Beginning in Feb workers are allotted 30 points a year to use to lay off work for personal business. This is for the year. If you become sick and choose to miss work, you are deducted 8 points for each day missed (numbers aren't exact). If you have COVID and are required to isolate for 5 days, you use up all 30 points and may not miss another day of service for the rest of the year. If you lay off for an ill child, an anniversary, a death in the family - all require you to use points. Laying off for Easter, Thanksgiving, or Christmas (what are known as high impact days) - 25 points.

These are workers who are on call 24 hours a day. They are supposed to get a certain number of hours off between trips but that rarely happens. They are on duty 12 hours, rest for 12 hours, and then can be called again to go to work. Seven days a week. This new legislation means no days off outside of vacation time. None. Almost every other occupation (teachers, nurses, food service workers, secretaries, refuse haulers) is limited to 5 days a week and mandatory days off. Yes, you can opt to work more if your company allows but that is not the same thing as what is happening to railroaders. They are being denied time off to rest, recover, and to have a quality life.

Our town is being hit hard by this new attendance and availability mandate. Now that a Texas judge has denied them the right to strike or take any other action to defend their rights, you won't hear about it. 

[Faith-manor]

This is like indentured servitude.

Yes, it will mess with the economy in a big way, and that had a lot of negative effects. But, I think a mass exodus of workers from the railroads is going to be required. It seems like the American capitalistic system cannot learn without radical consequences no matter how many times in history their inhuman deeds repeat themselves.

I am so sorry for anyone who is affected by this! It is wrong on so many levels. I hope some investigative journalists stay on top of this situation and keep reporting.

[SKL]

I think railroad workers have always been under different laws, though I am not an expert.  I could see why transportation workers would not be allowed to shut down food supplies etc.

Hopefully they can find other ways to express their concerns.  I do agree that leave policies need to be adjusted for the realities of Covid isolation/quarantine, and not just in the railroad industry.

[JustEm]

What does not allowing them to strike mean? What happens if they just collectively decide not to show up to work? Or is there a more formal definition of strike?

[JustEm]

1 minute ago, hjffkj said:

What does not allowing them to strike mean? What happens if they just collectively decide not to show up to work? Or is there a more formal definition of strike?

Nevermind, I understand it now. Right to strike means their jobs are protected.

[Murphy101]

I don’t think anyone should ever be denied the ability to strike.  Not nurses. Not railroad employees. Not pilots.  I guess the only other options is for them to collectively decide to just quit?  That or “blue flu” hits the entire workforce at scheduled times and days.

This is such backwards thinking.  Yes I get that hurting a key supply chain for vital things to life is not good. But also, or more so, screwing over all the people we depend on for the most vital life supply materials we all need is probably dumber than dumb and we get what we earned by doing so.  Much like teachers and medical staff and truckers and farmers and railroad workers - do we really want people who work themselves to the brink of mental health, financial and family break down to be the ones giving our loved ones medical care or driving 1000+pound machinery full of vital supplies?  And aside from that selfish pov, is that really what is best for society?

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, hjffkj said:

Nevermind, I understand it now. Right to strike means their jobs are protected.

And the other thing that concerns me is the possibility that they could be legally ordered NOT to walk off the job. Essential workers like paramedics and nurses here in Michigan can be forced to work, literally not allowed to quit their jobs if the state legislature wants to pull that rope. So they can become slaves to their employers. I can only think of one time when Lansing used that rope, and that was when the nursing staff of an entire hospital were going to strike and the hospital claimed they could not hire enough temporary staff to continue to operate the hospital, and had too many patients to be able to transfer them to other facilities. The nurses were forced to go to work or face jail, and the hospital was told by the powers that be to negotiate in good faith. I get it. People die if an entire nursing staff walks off the job. Not good. Then again, employers allowing relations and work conditions to deteriorate to that level of employee desperation is inhumane, and should be illegal. to my knowledge, Lansing has not intervened like that since then. I want to say it was back in the 90's, but don't quote me on that because I am hazy on the details. My concern for railroad workers is that maybe they are under the same designation as medical staff in some states.

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think anyone should ever be denied the ability to strike.  Not nurses. Not railroad employees. Not pilots.  I guess the only other options is for them to collectively decide to just quit?  That or “blue flu” hits the entire workforce at scheduled times and days.

This is such backwards thinking.  Yes I get that hurting a key supply chain for vital things to life is not good. But also, or more so, screwing over all the people we depend on for the most vital life supply materials we all need is probably dumber than dumb and we get what we earned by doing so.  Much like teachers and medical staff and truckers and farmers and railroad workers - do we really want people who work themselves to the brink of mental health, financial and family break down to be the ones giving our loved ones medical care or driving 1000+pound machinery full of vital supplies?  And aside from that selfish pov, is that really what is best for society?

This!!!! You nailed it.

[Murphy101]

I also think severe consolidation to single or nearly single avenues for such things is the eminent downfall of a nation. It’s just not smart to allow one carrier and line to have so much of the supply load. One natural disaster and we have a national supply crisis. One enemy act domestic or otherwise, and we have a national supply crisis. People seriously have absolutely zero idea how swiftly it would be to put our entire country over a barrel. And that’s just stupid to allow. 

I say this all the time:

Redundancy saves lives.

I mean it literally.  Super efficiency can kill and it can absolutely adversely affect life.  Super efficiency means always being one stroke of bad luck from catastrophe. 

[SKL]

Seems Congress needs to step in and make the leave policies equitable for railroads, given that they have so much control over that industry.

If that means labor shortages, maybe they can call in the national guard like they did in hospitals.  Or something.

Edited February 16, 2022 by SKL

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Seems Congress needs to step in and make the leave policies equitable for railroads, given that they have so much control over that industry.

If that means labor shortages, maybe they can call in the national guard like they did in hospitals.  Or something.

What the railroad needs is laws that safeguard certain standards. Such as a minimum number of workers per train and train load/conditions. Such as a required number of maximum hours worked at once or an extremely heavy fine to the railroad to deter making them do it anyways. And from a national security POV. It’s stupid as all heck to allow consolidation to this degree. Wth is the plan when something catastrophic happens? And it absolutely eventually will at some point bc that’s just the nature of living on this planet. If that means the railroad is mandated to hire more, open more rail lines, or another railroad company is started or expands - then so be it. They can afford it.

[Lady Florida.]

27 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think anyone should ever be denied the ability to strike.  Not nurses. Not railroad employees. Not pilots.  I guess the only other options is for them to collectively decide to just quit?  That or “blue flu” hits the entire workforce at scheduled times and days.

This is such backwards thinking.  Yes I get that hurting a key supply chain for vital things to life is not good. But also, or more so, screwing over all the people we depend on for the most vital life supply materials we all need is probably dumber than dumb and we get what we earned by doing so.  Much like teachers and medical staff and truckers and farmers and railroad workers - do we really want people who work themselves to the brink of mental health, financial and family break down to be the ones giving our loved ones medical care or driving 1000+pound machinery full of vital supplies?  And aside from that selfish pov, is that really what is best for society?

In Florida it's illegal for any state employees to strike and that includes teachers. Blue flu was the best we could do and even then the school board (or a principal) could demand a doctor's note if they were suspicious. Collective bargaining is a joke in a right to work state, as is arbitration. When I was teaching ps there were numerous times our talks went to impasse and ended up in arbitration. More often than not the arbitrator sided with the teacher's union and when they didn't fully side they usually listed a number of the union demands as being reasonable. Know what happened every single time? The school board then imposed a contract on us and there was nothing we could do but accept it. Arbitration is non-binding. People who don't live and work in a right to work state don't usually understand the futility of contract talks in such states.

I get that railroad workers come under federal and not state laws but I was responding to "everyone should have a right to strike". While I completely agree, it's not the reality in many states/professions.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

What the railroad needs is laws that safeguard certain standards. Such as a minimum number of workers per train and train load/conditions. Such as a required number of maximum hours worked at once or an extremely heavy fine to the railroad to deter making them do it anyways. And from a national security POV. It’s stupid as all heck to allow consolidation to this degree. Wth is the plan when something catastrophic happens? And it absolutely eventually will at some point bc that’s just the nature of living on this planet. If that means the railroad is mandated to hire more, open more rail lines, or another railroad company is started or expands - then so be it. They can afford it.

Agreed.

And there isn't any plan. Greed is how we got here. Fast accumulation and consolidation of wealth. There is no consideration of anything else. Preparing for long term problems requires the accumulation of less wealth in a short period of time. Morals and human rights is a barrier to rapid consolidation of money, money, money.

So you are 100% right. What happens if anything goes wrong with their "all the eggs in one basket, function with a skeleton crew of whipped employees" is a dystopian thought that has to be buried by the politicians who allow it to occur because they and their friends can't get any richer, any faster if they care two hoots for "people". The pandemic has absolutely illuminated the swirling underbelly of the horrific fragility of a system of improperly regulated capitalism put into the political driver's seat of an entire nation.

 

[Carrie12345]

It’s a flipping disease in almost every industry right now.  I do think essential services and extreme abuses should take priority in fixing, but it’s EVERYWHERE, and it needs to change.

Dh just had ANOTHER call where he reiterated the need to do right by employees and got ANOTHER response of “We have non-competes. They have nowhere to go!”  No changes agreed upon.

Dd had it, to a lesser extent, in EMS.
Other dd had it, though with much more flexibility to walk, in fast freaking food.

YOU. CAN’T. OWN. PEOPLE.  How hard is that to remember?

[Carrie12345]

Oh, also, some piece on the news recently was talking about teachers’ “moral obligations” to their students.  That makes me feel violent.  It’s a job. One people don’t go into without expecting sacrifice, but there’s only so much a human being can be asked to do out of the goodness of their heart. IT’S A JOB. Be a proper employer.

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

I also think severe consolidation to single or nearly single avenues for such things is the eminent downfall of a nation. It’s just not smart to allow one carrier and line to have so much of the supply load. One natural disaster and we have a national supply crisis. One enemy act domestic or otherwise, and we have a national supply crisis. People seriously have absolutely zero idea how swiftly it would be to put our entire country over a barrel. And that’s just stupid to allow. 

I say this all the time:

Redundancy saves lives.

I mean it literally.  Super efficiency can kill and it can absolutely adversely affect life.  Super efficiency means always being one stroke of bad luck from catastrophe. 

Nature tells us this. 

Did we not learn anything from the Irish potato famine? And yet...hundreds of acres of corn, wheat and soybeans upon which so much of our food supply rests.  Nature abhors a monoculture. So does society.

We learned how fragile our health is in Covid world. We are all one crisis from societal collapse.

 

ETA: Boy, am I a ray of sunshine today!!!

Edited February 16, 2022 by fairfarmhand

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Lady Florida. said:

In Florida it's illegal for any state employees to strike and that includes teachers. Blue flu was the best we could do and even then the school board (or a principal) could demand a doctor's note if they were suspicious. Collective bargaining is a joke in a right to work state, as is arbitration. When I was teaching ps there were numerous times our talks went to impasse and ended up in arbitration. More often than not the arbitrator sided with the teacher's union and when they didn't fully side they usually listed a number of the union demands as being reasonable. Know what happened every single time? The school board then imposed a contract on us and there was nothing we could do but accept it. Arbitration is non-binding. People who don't live and work in a right to work state don't usually understand the futility of contract talks in such states.

I get that railroad workers come under federal and not state laws but I was responding to "everyone should have a right to strike". While I completely agree, it's not the reality in many states/professions.

I KNOW it is not a reality. But it should not only be a reality, it should be the standard in a supposedly free country. It’s not even capitalism. Not that I’m okay with pure capitalism. Pure capitalism always ends in slavery and oligarchy. 

32 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Oh, also, some piece on the news recently was talking about teachers’ “moral obligations” to their students.  That makes me feel violent.  It’s a job. One people don’t go into without expecting sacrifice, but there’s only so much a human being can be asked to do out of the goodness of their heart. IT’S A JOB. Be a proper employer.

Teacher have zero moral obligation to be forced to take care my kids. That’s utter gaslighting guilt tripping bs that really angers me. Should they choose to take the job, they have an obligation to teach the 3 Rs in a safe environment.  That’s it. That’s literally all I think they are obligated to do. And frankly, I think that’s a LOT of really hard work that most are ill-equipped to make happen today through no fault of their own. 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

I KNOW it is not a reality. But it should not only be a reality, it should be the standard in a supposedly free country. It’s not even capitalism. Not that I’m okay with pure capitalism. Pure capitalism always ends in slavery and oligarchy. 

Teacher have zero moral obligation to be forced to take care my kids. That’s utter gaslighting guilt tripping bs that really angers me. Should they choose to take the job, they have an obligation to teach the 3 Rs in a safe environment.  That’s it. That’s literally all I think they are obligated to do. And frankly, I think that’s a LOT of really hard work that most are ill-equipped to make happen today through no fault of their own. 

Winner, winner chicken dinner this post!

[Carrie12345]

28 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I KNOW it is not a reality. But it should not only be a reality, it should be the standard in a supposedly free country. It’s not even capitalism. Not that I’m okay with pure capitalism. Pure capitalism always ends in slavery and oligarchy. 

Teacher have zero moral obligation to be forced to take care my kids. That’s utter gaslighting guilt tripping bs that really angers me. Should they choose to take the job, they have an obligation to teach the 3 Rs in a safe environment.  That’s it. That’s literally all I think they are obligated to do. And frankly, I think that’s a LOT of really hard work that most are ill-equipped to make happen today through no fault of their own. 

Absolutely. I don’t mean to imply that they *should sacrifice, just that there’s an (inappropriate) expectation that everyone knows.

Gov. Wolf posted about re-proposing a scholarship program in high-need sectors today, and many people are PRESSED. “People should learn to budget.” “Go into a better paying field.”  Hey dumbbutts, WE NEED EDUCATORS, HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS, AND PUBLIC SERVANTS. How shortsighted can even an idiot possibly be???
Sometimes I think everyone should strike all at once. Let the stupid people figure out how to live their lives without the things that enabled them to live their narrow little lives.

[Murphy101]

9 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Absolutely. I don’t mean to imply that they *should sacrifice, just that there’s an (inappropriate) expectation that everyone knows.

Gov. Wolf posted about re-proposing a scholarship program in high-need sectors today, and many people are PRESSED. “People should learn to budget.” “Go into a better paying field.”  Hey dumbbutts, WE NEED EDUCATORS, HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS, AND PUBLIC SERVANTS. How shortsighted can even an idiot possibly be???
Sometimes I think everyone should strike all at once. Let the stupid people figure out how to live their lives without the things that enabled them to live their narrow little lives.

This is called brain drain immigration. People with the means and the skills will eventually start to leave to live somewhere they can hope for better. I think we are already seeing the start of it with traveling nurses quitting  their jobs to travel for hire. Eventually I think laws will crack down on that making it harder and those same nurses are going to think, hmmm. Other countries need nurses too. Countries with better social policies are going to suddenly appeal to nurses. After all. Most other countries aren’t even the size of Texas. How much harder could it be to travel to England or whatever instead of from NY to Texas? It isn’t harder at all. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Murphy101

[prairiewindmomma]

I just finished reading Davos Man: How Billionaires Devoured the World by Peter Goodman  (see review on NYT here: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/13/business/davos-man-marc-benioff-book.html) and came away with the realization that we are living with modern day robber barons and indentured servitude.  

The railroad strike issue is just another form of indentured servitude, much like what has been foisted upon healthcare workers, or Frito-Lay workers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Frito-Lay_strike), or others.  Mandatory overtime as a means to cut costs and avoid hiring more employees is immoral. 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

This is called brain drain immigration. People with the means and the skills will eventually start to leave to live somewhere they can hope for better. I think we are already seeing the start of it with traveling nurses quitting  their jobs to travel for hire. Eventually I think laws will crack down on that making it harder and those same nurses are going to think, hmmm. Other countries need nurses too. Countries with better social policies are going to suddenly appeal to nurses. After all. Most other countries aren’t even the size of Texas. How much harder could it be to travel to England or whatever instead of from NY to Texas? It isn’t harder at all. 

Right. I have a kid about to graduate with an electrical engineering degree who has a lot of countries willing to welcome him with open arms. He really does not have to stay put to be mistreated by the oligarchy if he does not want to do so. Actually, of my four adult children, three have a fairly easy path to immigration to a variety of places. My own sister headed to France for a year of post undergraduate classes, and never came back as she was able to become a resident, then eventually married a French citizen. Frankly, her life is leaps and bounds better there than it was here. 

Our rural area has a major brain drain, but the state is experiencing it as well. It is not far into the future before it will be a problem for the nation as a whole. 

It should be noted that in the early -  mid 2000's IT workers were indentured servants, some still are. When NAFTA was negotiated and drafted, IT companies like IBM, HP, EDS (later purchased by HP), AIC, and numerous others paid politicians on both sides of the aisle to exempt IT workers from labor laws. So not only was there the move to massive outsourcing, there was a lot of state sanctioned abuse that an IT employer stateside could do to its American employees. Murder them? Well, no can't do that? Lock them in the building? Well, probably SCOTUS is going to say no to that. Force them to work 90 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, refuse all vacation day requests, no pay raises, no bonuses, no comp time, non compete clauses galore, and constant threats of instant loss of job and insurance for daring to even suggest it is wrong and not sustainable? Bingo, hell yes you can do that one! Keep an employee up 36 hours with no sleep forcing them to do their work and then supervise offshore work with no breaks? Hell yes you can do that too? See a coworker commit suicide in the parking lot, and then force everyone to go right back to their desks to work? Dang tooting that one is okay too. Oh, and don't even allow coworkers an hour off to attend the funeral? Also all good. My husband lived through it. Barely. His hair fell out, the weight fell off him until he was a skeleton, depression, anxiety, panic attacks, all of it. And I single parented the whole damn time because he was a ghost. So IT workers quit in droves, colleges couldn't in good conscience continue to encourage students to major in software engineering and comp sci, people retrained, and off shoring didn't work so well because trying to explain to someone who hasn't lived in your country or ever seen your business in action why certain a,b,c things need to be x,y,z, with 7-12 hour time change and no cultural understanding between workers was a bit of a bust! Then everyone needed IT workers, and oops, they weren't there.

My husband opted not to re-train, but he did make enough noise to eventually be let out of a contract he was on, leave HP before it closed its services division, and moved to a company that was not an IT company but wanted to have an internal IT department to meet their needs and a new CEO who didn't like the way employees were being treated in corporate America who demanded radical change at the company. He got better. His health rebounded. Unfortunately, we know many IT workers who health did not recover.

Feudalism, and workers are the peasants.

[prairiewindmomma]

Dh lived through IT in the 90s also---many hugs to you.  Burn and churn unfortunately remains the norm in many companies.

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Dh lived through IT in the 90s also---many hugs to you.  Burn and churn unfortunately remains the norm in many companies.

IBM is at it again too. They didn't apparently learn anything from their previous age discrimination, mass firing, lawsuit city experience, and now they up to tricks again. 

I am very concerned for railroad workers. I am just thinking about them and their families, and also all of the safety concerns and potential for gargantuan tragedy. When will this nation ever learn!!

[math teacher]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I KNOW it is not a reality. But it should not only be a reality, it should be the standard in a supposedly free country. It’s not even capitalism. Not that I’m okay with pure capitalism. Pure capitalism always ends in slavery and oligarchy. 

Teacher have zero moral obligation to be forced to take care my kids. That’s utter gaslighting guilt tripping bs that really angers me. Should they choose to take the job, they have an obligation to teach the 3 Rs in a safe environment.  That’s it. That’s literally all I think they are obligated to do. And frankly, I think that’s a LOT of really hard work that most are ill-equipped to make happen today through no fault of their own. 

Say it louder for the people in the back!!

Just yesterday, "for the good of the student" I chose to call a guardian who emailed me requesting me to call. Basically, kid broke his glasses and told guardian I threw the lens in the trash. At first, she seemed to believe me when I told her I did not throw them in the trash(???!!!), but now she has seemed to believe kid. I'm turning it over to the Asst. Principal. Won't be calling anymore either. Sometimes, you get bitten in the butt for being nice.

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, math teacher said:

Say it louder for the people in the back!!

Just yesterday, "for the good of the student" I chose to call a guardian who emailed me requesting me to call. Basically, kid broke his glasses and told guardian I threw the lens in the trash. At first, she seemed to believe me when I told her I did not throw them in the trash(???!!!), but now she has seemed to believe kid. I'm turning it over to the Asst. Principal. Won't be calling anymore either. Sometimes, you get bitten in the butt for being nice.

I am so sorry this happened to you. And parents wonder why no one wants to teach! It used to be put of 25 students maybe a teacher had one of these types of kids and parents, at most two, three would be an epidemic. Now? Many, many, many, many. It is so overwhelming.

The one thing I have wondered is if maybe their might be just a little bit of good coming from those states where parents are being shoved into classrooms due to staff shortages. Maybe walking a few days in a teacher's shoes might cause the community to take notice of how bad it had gotten.

[Murphy101]

55 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I am so sorry this happened to you. And parents wonder why no one wants to teach! It used to be put of 25 students maybe a teacher had one of these types of kids and parents, at most two, three would be an epidemic. Now? Many, many, many, many. It is so overwhelming.

The one thing I have wondered is if maybe their might be just a little bit of good coming from those states where parents are being shoved into classrooms due to staff shortages. Maybe walking a few days in a teacher's shoes might cause the community to take notice of how bad it had gotten.

Bless your heart full of optimism! I seriously doubt that’s how parents will view it.  Never challenge that things can’t get worse. I don’t think it matters how bad it’s gotten. That’s easy to see. What matters is what is anyone going to do to make it better? So far I hear and see nothing about making any of it better. 

[Lady Florida.]

6 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I KNOW it is not a reality. But it should not only be a reality, it should be the standard in a supposedly free country. It’s not even capitalism. Not that I’m okay with pure capitalism. Pure capitalism always ends in slavery and oligarchy. 

 

I agree with you. I was just using your post as a jumping off point for those in strong union states who might not understand what it's like in a right to work state. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Thank you for all of the replies. It never ceases to amaze me at the depth and breadth of the knowledge and experiences of WTMers.

I'll try to go back and reread responses. There really is nothing more for me to add as many of you have written (more eloquently than I could) most of my thoughts and reactions.