Quick Question about Covid transmissibility and vaxed people

[Ginevra]

Just looking for a quick answer, if there is one. 
 

Am I correct in thinking the more vaccinated people there are along a potential chain of transmission, the less likely it will go through the chain? 
 

So for example, my boss’s wife, who is vacccinated, is Covid+ right now, with symptoms but not too serious. My boss is vaccinated, though he wasn’t boosted when she tested  positive but he got the boost Monday. So far, he seems to not have it. He is at home, but assuming he comes in next week, am I correct in thinking that I am at very little risk of catching it from him? I am 3x vaxxed too. 
 

I will be keeping my distance from him all of next week and KN95 masked if I’m in his office next week, but *I think* the multiple layers of vaxed people means transmissibility should be low. (This is most likely Omicron, though, as our state is 95%+ that variant according to Hopkins research.) 

[Katy]

There is less chance. There was a study in the news last week, something like 80% less likely to get Omicron if vaccinated and much less likely to need hospital. I didn’t seek out the study & read the abstract myself, but since a previous study found omicron is leas dangerous for those over 70 with a booster than the flu, I don’t think you need to worry too much. I would wear an n95 mask just in case. 

[Faith-manor]

I think omicron is a wild card in terms of transmissibility. Tons of vaxed folks here are getting omicron.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Faith-manor

[Toocrazy!!]

Every person I know right now that has it  or has recently had it have all been vaxed and 90% boosted. (At least 25 people in the last few weeks)  I don’t see any transmission benefit to vaccination in my group. Although I guess it’s hard to tell exactly how many times a vaccinated person was exposed snd not been infected. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Toocrazy!!

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think omicron is a wild card in terms of transmissibility. Tons of vaxed folks here are getting omicron.

Yes and I do personally know a ton of vaxed people who have gotten it in the weeks since TGing but I thought there was something about the lower viral load leads to lower transmissibility and I’m assuming the further down a chain you go, with each person vaxed, the lower probability to the later people in the chain. 

[Farrar]

Yes. You're correct. Metaphorically speaking, every person in the chain who is vaxxed has to roll die and hit six. The more people in that chain, the less likely they're all going to roll six. That's true even with omicron. Maybe with old school Covid, they all needed to roll a d20 and get crit. Now, getting three people to roll a six on a regular d6 is not super crazy. But still not super likely.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Farrar

[SKL]

Theoretically yes, but you can still catch it and spread it.  I'm triple vaxed and caught it from a double vaxed person.  (I don't know whom she caught it from.)  I was symptomatic and could have spread it if I was around anyone.

Edited January 21, 2022 by SKL

[desertflower]

11 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yes and I do personally know a ton of vaxed people who have gotten it in the weeks since TGing but I thought there was something about the lower viral load leads to lower transmissibility and I’m assuming the further down a chain you go, with each person vaxed, the lower probability to the later people in the chain. 

These are my thoughts too.

[Pam in CT]

Agree with "omicron is a wild card" and "we don't really know yet."

Anecdotally... I live in a town where the vax rate of the *total population* (not the eligible population) is 92.2% has had at least first does (96% first dose+ among ages 5+) -- among the highest town rates in a state which has among the highest state rates in the country.  And mask compliance is pretty good (despite there being no state or town mandates any longer); and folks dialed back substantially when Omicron started to rage (despite no mandated closures). 

And still: Omicron ripped through.  I was on a Zoom last night with an organization that hadn't had a meeting since late Nov, and virtually everyone (all fully vaxxed) on the call had some (fully vaxxed) family member who was smitten over the holidays. No hospitalizations, mercifully.  But a number of long-lingering and/or relapsing cases, well beyond "cold" symptoms.

We seem, in both town and state, to have turned a corner, and relevant indicators are all now headed in the right direction. But there's just so much randomness in the ancedata-- families where 2 members were out/languishing for 15+ days, while other family members never tested positive -- that I'm loathe to draw any inferences, other than: vaccination helps the odds, and, the thing about odds is, some folks end up on the lower-odd side of the odds.

[SKL]

I mean look how Omicron ripped through places in the UK that had high vax rates.  There had to be a lot of third-degree vaxed-vaxed-vaxed spread.

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Agree with "omicron is a wild card" and "we don't really know yet."

Anecdotally... I live in a town where the vax rate of the *total population* (not the eligible population) is 92.2% has had at least first does (96% first dose+ among ages 5+) -- among the highest town rates in a state which has among the highest state rates in the country.  And mask compliance is pretty good (despite there being no state or town mandates any longer); and folks dialed back substantially when Omicron started to rage (despite no mandated closures). 

And still: Omicron ripped through.  I was on a Zoom last night with an organization that hadn't had a meeting since late Nov, and virtually everyone (all fully vaxxed) on the call had some (fully vaxxed) family member who was smitten over the holidays. No hospitalizations, mercifully.  But a number of long-lingering and/or relapsing cases, well beyond "cold" symptoms.

We seem, in both town and state, to have turned a corner, and relevant indicators are all now headed in the right direction. But there's just so much randomness in the ancedata-- families where 2 members were out/languishing for 15+ days, while other family members never tested positive -- that I'm loathe to draw any inferences, other than: vaccination helps the odds, and, the thing about odds is, some folks end up on the lower-odd side of the odds.

This! I really believe this so where we are at, and especially without a lot more data.

[catz]

I did share this on another thread, but this has some nice charting on break through cases in New York.  So yes, more likely to break through but still at significantly lower infection rates than the unvaccinated. I do suspect the more immunity/exposure built the better most likely in terms of viral loads out in the community.  

I will say my college student had a masked music rehearsal (mostly high quality masks) for hours one day early last week.  3 students tested covid+ the next day.  Highly vaxxed group.  He had VERY close contact, there was singing, etc.  🤪🙄   Entire group tested this Tuesday 6 days post exposure.  All negative, group was able to reassemble masked yesterday except for a couple finishing out their isolation period (very minor symptoms, 5 in the group actually got covid but were exposed to each other prior to the rehearsal unmasked).  So I wouldn't be sitting down at a restaurant or wanting to share air space with someone like this.  But I am increasingly less nervous out in my N95/KN95 masks.  I still get the feeling most transmission is occurring when the masks come off.  I suspect the calculus is different for HCW and those dealing with the highly symptomatic.  That said, I do think it's likely that there are low/no symptom vaccinated who may be spreading it without knowing and recover quickly without incident.  My daughter and I went to a broadway show 6 days ago, full audience - vax/neg test, masking required.  Lots of high quality masks out now, very compliant crowd.  We are peaking now.  I was so nervous but my daughter has literally been waiting years to see this one and we paid for these tickets prior to covid (Come from Away, everyone should see this show, so amazing!).  But no problem (knock on wood).  I am not going to use up tests when we're asymptomatic and not going anywhere unmasked right now though.  

Anyway - I think it's hard to measure individual risk.  I certainly will be selective about who I am sharing air with the next stretch unmasked.  ABout 2 weeks before we peaked, I knew lots of people who got it.  But I also know plenty of people who have to go out who are vaxxed and boosted who haven't gotten it too.  Or at least haven't had a confirmed case, I am certain many of us have been exposed at some level.  My daughter was doing a theater production over the holidays with a fully vaxxed cast, rotating colds and one covid+ case at the end.  Who knows.  

https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by FuzzyCatz
Fixed image

[prairiewindmomma]

The math is crazy and hard to wrap my brain around. My state advertises that the unvaccinated are getting covid at 8x the rate of the vaccinated + boosted. That seems like a really messy statistic as there is no way to really break that down by length of exposure time, quality of mask worn (if any mask was worn at all, etc.) and so on. 
 

If you are going to work in a N95 or equivalent and doing your eating/drinking alone in your car, I think odds of you getting covid at work are low. If you are showing up in a cloth mask, I wouldn’t be as confident, iykwim. 

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The math is crazy and hard to wrap my brain around. My state advertises that the unvaccinated are getting covid at 8x the rate of the vaccinated + boosted. That seems like a really messy statistic as there is no way to really break that down by length of exposure time, quality of mask worn (if any mask was worn at all, etc.) and so on. 
 

If you are going to work in a N95 or equivalent and doing your eating/drinking alone in your car, I think odds of you getting covid at work are low. If you are showing up in a cloth mask, I wouldn’t be as confident, iykwim. 

This just doesn't sound right at all. If you're in an area where lots of people are vaccinated, then of course more vaccinated people will get it. Maybe even 8x as many. But not at 8x the rate. As in, if vax rates are good, then it's absolutely possible that in a small town, that 100 unvaxed people could get it and 800 (8x) vaxed people. That sounds totally normal if lots of people are vaccinated. But if vaxed people were getting it at 8x the rate, that would mean unvaxed people were unlikely to contract it, but the vaccine was causing people to get it more often (or maybe that it was causing them to take a LOT more risks while unvaxed people took none - which also seems really unrealistic). We know that's just not true. The vaccine doesn't stop it cold anymore for everyone with omicron, but it does prevent many people from getting it or realizing they got it.

[prairiewindmomma]

I agree it sounds wrong. 

[Arcadia]

That’s theoretically probability. Real life didn’t play out that way for the 2003 SARS in Asia and this current pandemic.

The Israel study with the 4th booster seems to be implying that vaccines would not be able to provide that high level of protection regardless how good the vaccine is. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-study-shows-4th-shot-covid-19-vaccine-not-able-block-omicron-2022-01-17/

”The vaccines led to a increase in the number of antibodies "even a little bit higher than what we had after the third dose", said Regev-Yochay.

"Yet, this is probably not enough for the Omicron," she told reporters. "We know by now that the level of antibodies needed to protect and not to got infected from Omicron is probably too high for the vaccine, even if it's a good vaccine."

The findings, which the hospital said were the first of its kind in the world, were preliminary and not yet published.”

[Arcadia]

37 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The math is crazy and hard to wrap my brain around. My state advertises that the unvaccinated are getting covid at 8x the rate of the vaccinated + boosted

 

28 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This just doesn't sound right at all. If you're in an area where lots of people are vaccinated, then of course more vaccinated people will get it. Maybe even 8x as many. But not at 8x the rate.

It sounds correct. Her state is saying the positivity rate for the unvaccinated is 8 times the positivity rate of the vaccinated + boosted. The difference in positivity rate is about 5.8 times for my county.

 

[wintermom]

I thought transmission of the omicron variant is pretty much equal between double vaccinated and unvaccinated, but a lot more unvaccinated people are getting sick enough to need hospital or ICU care. 

[Farrar]

21 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

It sounds correct. Her state is saying the positivity rate for the unvaccinated is 8 times the positivity rate of the vaccinated + boosted. The difference in positivity rate is about 5.8 times for my county.

 

Oh good grief. I reversed what she said in my head. D'oh.

[KSera]

New York just updated their charts. Still shows a huge difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated even in case numbers.

 

eta: it’s been noted that vaccinated case numbers have declined before unvaccinated, and theorized that’s due to more behavior change in vaccinated people than in unvaccinated (switching to better masks, for one example). 

Edited January 21, 2022 by KSera

[KSera]

And for anyone curious, here’s the corresponding hospitalization chart:

 

[Pam in CT]

Just now, KSera said:

New York just updated their charts. Still shows a huge difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated even in case numbers.

 

CT is not sequencing cases statewide for Omicron, nor reporting quite the same vax/unvax charts as NYC is; but my husband is on the board of of our local hospital and participates in various network- and sector-wide discussions, and according to him 1) within the whole network, 85-98% of admissions have sequenced as Omicron; and 2) within hospitals across the state, these kinds of vax/unvax gap charts have held for admissions/ICU/deaths throughout the omicron wave.

So the data that vaccination helps *the seriousness* of infection is holding up unambiguously and robustly.  But the effect on *transmission* seems still to be pretty squishy.

[fraidycat]

44 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Oh good grief. I reversed what she said in my head. D'oh.

I had to go back and reread, because I was confused by your response. 😁 I thought I had maybe turned it around in my head.

@FuzzyCatz, DD and I are going to Come From Away in October.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

85-98% of admissions have sequenced as Omicron;

What I don’t understand is why there’s a narrative out there that Omicron is “like a cold”. Even among my vaxed friends who most likely got Omicron, it was *not* like a cold. Even vaxed friends are feeling quite bad for a week or more. The only cases not like that have been my young people - for *them*, with vax, it is more like a cold. 

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

What I don’t understand is why there’s a narrative out there that Omicron is “like a cold”. Even among my vaxed friends who most likely got Omicron, it was *not* like a cold. Even vaxed friends are feeling quite bad for a week or more. The only cases not like that have been my young people - for *them*, with vax, it is more like a cold. 

I think it fits into the narrative people want to believe?!! It’s hard to hold in your head for a long period of time the risk of severe illness/hospitalization. People minimize consequences so that they can go back to a more comfortable spot in risk assessment.

Case in point, a relative. Relative is a covid denier. Relative went to a Caribbean island, brought home covid. Relative was SO sick and SO miserable (no evidence of needing supportive oxygen or a hospital visit or anything) but then got ivermectin and monoclonal antibodies. The ivermectin “did the trick”, they recovered, and they say it was just a cold, don’t need to mask, why do we live in fear, etc. They minimize what they went through because it doesn’t fit the narrative and the narrative is more important to their worldview than the facts.

 

[wintermom]

Ontario (pop ca 15 million) doesn't show big differences between cases of double vaccinated and unvaccinated people (see table on left). Our testing for the past 2 months - basically since omicron hit hard - is not as accurate as before because testing processes (mostly the verifying cases) changed dramatically. There's a BIG difference between numbers of vaccinated and unvaccinated in hospitals and ICU, though. (Source: https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/)

I just want to add that it's a pet peeve of mine that this org changes the scale in their graphs when they display them. The graph on the right (ICU patients) has a different scale than the other two. 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by wintermom

[fraidycat]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

What I don’t understand is why there’s a narrative out there that Omicron is “like a cold”. Even among my vaxed friends who most likely got Omicron, it was *not* like a cold. Even vaxed friends are feeling quite bad for a week or more. The only cases not like that have been my young people - for *them*, with vax, it is more like a cold. 

I think because for the majority of people it has been "like a cold". When millions of people are infected at the same time and most of those are mildly symptomatic, the majority will "write the narrative" with their experience.

This does not mean that it is not still a very dangerous disease for a large swath of the population, or that it won't turn into long-Covid for many. But many people are experiencing it with very mild to moderate cold-like symptoms (fever, cough, sore throat, nasal congestion, sinus headaches) at first.

But maybe our definition of a cold is different? 7-10 days of feeling bad is pretty much the definition of a cold the way I have always understood it - so, "feeling bad for a week or more". 

🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

 

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Yes and I do personally know a ton of vaxed people who have gotten it in the weeks since TGing but I thought there was something about the lower viral load leads to lower transmissibility and I’m assuming the further down a chain you go, with each person vaxed, the lower probability to the later people in the chain. 

Personally, I would err on the side of assuming that your boss may be contagious for a week or so after he returns to the office, and I would take appropriate precautions based on that assumption. 

Way too many vaccinated people are contracting Covid from other vaccinated people for me to trust the narrative that says it's less likely. 

Why take chances? Can you wear your mask all day in the office? It's not like your boss will never be in the common areas that are shared by everyone, so if he's contagious, you could catch it anywhere in your offices.

Ugh. I'm so sorry you have to worry about this!

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

What I don’t understand is why there’s a narrative out there that Omicron is “like a cold”. Even among my vaxed friends who most likely got Omicron, it was *not* like a cold. Even vaxed friends are feeling quite bad for a week or more. The only cases not like that have been my young people - for *them*, with vax, it is more like a cold. 

I agree -- I have seen the same thing among people I know. 

It's hard to trust the statistics because so many people are now testing at home and not reporting their results anywhere, and also, the lack of PCR test availability is a problem in many places. I personally know several families who have had one sick person go get tested, and if that person is positive, they assume everyone else in the family is sick with Covid, as well -- but none of those people will be counted as positive cases because they didn't get tested. 

That's a lot of cases that are flying under the radar unless those people get so sick that they end up having to go to the hospital.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Catwoman
I can't type

[Pam in CT]

re "just a cold"

1 hour ago, Quill said:

What I don’t understand is why there’s a narrative out there that Omicron is “like a cold”. Even among my vaxed friends who most likely got Omicron, it was *not* like a cold. Even vaxed friends are feeling quite bad for a week or more. The only cases not like that have been my young people - for *them*, with vax, it is more like a cold. 

Yeah, among the most sobering of the Omicron anecdata in our world is a good friend, *really good regularly-runs-half-marathons shape,* COVID-cautious, 3x vaxxed, super-clean-eater, who got it, was laid flat for 7 days, then started getting better, then on day 10 relapsed and was laid flat again for ANOTHER 5 days. She's up and about now but reports still feeling low-energy and mind-foggy and definitely not up for a run.  If it knocks HER out like that, then I am SUNK if it comes my way. Yet 2/5 people in her household never got it. 

 

re confirmation bias

57 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think it fits into the narrative people want to believe?!! It’s hard to hold in your head for a long period of time the risk of severe illness/hospitalization. People minimize consequences so that they can go back to a more comfortable spot in risk assessment.

Case in point, a relative. Relative is a covid denier. Relative went to a Caribbean island, brought home covid. Relative was SO sick and SO miserable (no evidence of needing supportive oxygen or a hospital visit or anything) but then got ivermectin and monoclonal antibodies. The ivermectin “did the trick”, they recovered, and they say it was just a cold, don’t need to mask, why do we live in fear, etc. They minimize what they went through because it doesn’t fit the narrative and the narrative is more important to their worldview than the facts.

Right. And I suppose how folks "received" the effects of the vaccine -- just a slightly-sore arm!!  achey-for 12 hours!  caused a flare-up!  knocked me out for 5 days!  first dose caused so many issues I'll never go back for a second!  -- is subject to the same basic confirmation-bias problem.  It's a real thing, for sure.

(See the study linked in the thread of a few days ago, in which 35% of folks who received a *placebo shot* reported significant adverse events to what they believed to be a vaccine.)

[TheReader]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Yes and I do personally know a ton of vaxed people who have gotten it in the weeks since TGing but I thought there was something about the lower viral load leads to lower transmissibility and I’m assuming the further down a chain you go, with each person vaxed, the lower probability to the later people in the chain. 

I can say that our family (all vaxed) -- 3 of us went to an event that ended up with basically everyone in attendance who wasn't already sick, getting sick (with presumably Omicron, but definitely Covid). 

That was on a Friday night, and we did not find out until that Weds that we'd been exposed -- though some of us had symptoms as early as Sunday and all of the 3 of us by Monday evening. 

Despite Sun, Mon, Tues, and half of Weds having 3 out of 5 of us positive and symptomatic, yet behaving like normal b/c we didn't realize it was Covid, the other 2 never got sick. From Weds on, we masked and they isolated per CDC guidelines.

So, at least in our household, your hypothesis seems correct. We three were exposed to a large viral load at this super-spreader event (not realizing, of course, it would be one), and despite being fully vaxed, all caught it. But then were around 2 other households on Sunday (and I started showing symptoms while at that setting), all of them also fully vaxed, and then were around each other for three more days, also all fully vaxed, and we did not pass it to any of them. 

Pure anecdotal evidence, but that was our experience. I think if you mask up around him, you'll cover your bases pretty well and be fine. 

[TheReader]

Oh, and yes, it affected all 3 of us differently. Only one of the three had massive fatigue....but that was the one of us in the best physical shape. BUT, aside from him, none of the rest of us would have suspected Covid if we hadn't been told of the exposure. For the other 2 of us, it was odd, but not bad. If that makes any sense. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

Ontario (pop ca 15 million) doesn't show big differences between cases of double vaccinated and unvaccinated people (see table on left). Our testing for the past 2 months - basically since omicron hit hard - is not as accurate as before because testing processes (mostly the verifying cases) changed dramatically. There's a BIG difference between numbers of vaccinated and unvaccinated in hospitals and ICU, though. (Source: https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/)

I just want to add that it's a pet peeve of mine that this org changes the scale in their graphs when they display them. The graph on the right (ICU patients) has a different scale than the other two. 

 

Interesting that your cases initially showed a much different pattern than I've seen anywhere here--what percentage of your population is boosted? I'm wondering if it's a two dose vs boosted issue. Definitely a big difference between those. Also interesting how the case numbers among vaccinated people dropped off so sharply, but not unvaccinated. New York saw that pattern but to a much less degree. Did testing availability for vaccinated folks change at all?

 

With the different scales, it makes sense though why they have to do that, because the ICU numbers are so much smaller that if they used the same scale, the blue line for vaccinated people would be compressed into a flat line at the bottom of the chart.

[wintermom]

23 minutes ago, KSera said:

Interesting that your cases initially showed a much different pattern than I've seen anywhere here--what percentage of your population is boosted? I'm wondering if it's a two dose vs boosted issue. Definitely a big difference between those. Also interesting how the case numbers among vaccinated people dropped off so sharply, but not unvaccinated. New York saw that pattern but to a much less degree. Did testing availability for vaccinated folks change at all?

 

With the different scales, it makes sense though why they have to do that, because the ICU numbers are so much smaller that if they used the same scale, the blue line for vaccinated people would be compressed into a flat line at the bottom of the chart.

The administration of booster shots was much later in Canada than the US, as was our initial administering of 1st and 2nd does of vaccination for 5 - 12 year olds. That is probably part of the difference. Also, our testing capacity was completely overwhelmed, and quickly ended up being a lot of people just using rapid tests (or assuming they had Covid due to symptoms). These Covid cases weren't collected and included in the documented case numbers at all. 

Re: scales, the blue line is already a flat line on the bottom of the chart, but when all three graphs are displayed together like this, it's tempting to compare the lines as equals when they aren't. I don't want to believe that they do this to scare people and make it look like the ICU numbers are much higher than they actually are. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by wintermom

[wathe]

13 minutes ago, KSera said:

Interesting that your cases initially showed a much different pattern than I've seen anywhere here--what percentage of your population is boosted? I'm wondering if it's a two dose vs boosted issue. Definitely a big difference between those. har. New York saw that pattern but to a much less degree. Did testing availability for vaccinated folks change at all?

 

With the different scales, it makes sense though why they have to do that, because the ICU numbers are so much smaller that if they used the same scale, the blue line for vaccinated people would be compressed into a flat line at the bottom of the chart.

The sharp drop off exactly mirrors 3rd dose administration data.  It's a 3rd dose effect.  As @wintermomstated, boosters started relatively late here, with a rapid increase in those with a 3rd dose about mid-december:

[Hilltopmom]

Dunno the scientific answer, but here it’s ripping through our vaxxed teachers and students and we are all masked except when kids eat. 

[wintermom]

8 minutes ago, wathe said:

The sharp drop off exactly mirrors 3rd dose administration data.  It's a 3rd dose effect.  As @wintermomstated, boosters started relatively late here, with a rapid increase in those with a 3rd dose about mid-december:

We got really unlucky in Canada with Covid hitting before we could roll out the boosters. I got my booster and contracted Covid at the same time. Don't know if the exposure was at the vaccination site or not. No real way of telling. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by wintermom

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

5 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Dunno the scientific answer, but here it’s ripping through our vaxxed teachers and students and we are all masked except when kids eat. 

The same here, and the kids sit six feet apart at least to eat.  But they ended contact tracing and insist there’s no school spread.

[Hilltopmom]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

The same here, and the kids sit six feet apart at least to eat.  But they ended contact tracing and insist there’s no school spread.

Yeah…they used to try to say that here… but now schools are not even contact tracing at all. Health dept said don’t bother. Well this week I have 2 students who sit directly across the lunch table from each other facing each other- yep, both positive within a day of each other.

theyre 3 feet apart in the cafeteria and classroom to eat this year

My own ds has not gone anywhere except school all year and still caught it before Xmas. Total BS the line they’re trying to pass about it “ not spreading in schools”

I’m so annoyed lately 😞

Edited January 21, 2022 by Hilltopmom

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Dunno the scientific answer, but here it’s ripping through our vaxxed teachers and students and we are all masked except when kids eat. 

I have no idea the answer to the eating thing in very cold places, but it makes no sense to have kids all inside together with masks off to eat and think that's not going to be a problem. I mean heck, it's been caught in quarantine facilities just from air in the hallway when two opposing doors have been opened at separate times.

9 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

The same here, and the kids sit six feet apart at least to eat.  But they ended contact tracing and insist there’s no school spread.

The six feet apart standard needs to be acknowledged as having been arbitrary and not applying to an airborne pathogen. That might have been accurate if it were primarily spread by droplets. An aerosol doesn't magically stop traveling at 6 feet, though.

[Hilltopmom]

Just now, KSera said:

I have no idea the answer to the eating thing in very cold places, but it makes no sense to have kids all inside together with masks off to eat and think that's not going to be a problem. I mean heck, it's been caught in quarantine facilities just from air in the hallway when two opposing doors have been opened at separate times.

The six feet apart standard needs to be acknowledged as having been arbitrary and not applying to an airborne pathogen. That might have been accurate if it were primarily spread by droplets. An aerosol doesn't magically stop traveling at 6 feet, though.

Yeah… it was -26 degrees F this morning here.  Breakfast was not happening outside!

They’re just playing a pretending game that everything is fine. 

[wathe]

@Quill

Yes, vaccination confers some protection against transmission.  2 doses, not much.  3 doses, quite a bit.  And yes, those gains are cumulative with respect to transmission from person to person to person.  But it's not enough to rely on with Omicron.  

Boss counts as only double vaxxed (3rd dose too recent to be meaningful, I think).  Proceed as though he's infectious.

 If I were in your place, I would want to work from home if I could.  If that's not possible, I would want to mitigate as much as possible.

 I think I would wear a respirator at all times while in the office (not just his personal office, but the whole office space).

What's the ventilation like?  Older building with radiators or electric heat?  New construction with modern HVAC?  Can you crack windows?  Can you run a HEPA filter unit or Corsi-Rosenthal box?  Improving ventilation and filtration makes a big difference.  Even just cracking windows helps more than you might think.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Why take chances? Can you wear your mask all day in the office? It's not like your boss will never be in the common areas that are shared by everyone, so if he's contagious, you could catch it anywhere in your offices.

Ugh. I'm so sorry you have to worry about this!

In theory, I could wear it the whole day, but in practice it would be difficult. For one thing, I talk on the phone many times a day (don’t tell old Quill; she would never apply in the first place;)) and it is really difficult to speak clearly on the phone through a good mask. 
 

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, wathe said:

@Quill

Yes, vaccination confers some protection against transmission.  2 doses, not much.  3 doses, quite a bit.  And yes, those gains are cumulative with respect to transmission from person to person to person.  But it's not enough to rely on with Omicron.  

Boss counts as only double vaxxed (3rd dose too recent to be meaningful, I think).  Proceed as though he's infectious.

 If I were in your place, I would want to work from home if I could.  If that's not possible, I would want to mitigate as much as possible.

 I think I would wear a respirator at all times while in the office (not just his personal office, but the whole office space).

What's the ventilation like?  Older building with radiators or electric heat?  New construction with modern HVAC?  Can you crack windows?  Can you run a HEPA filter unit or Corsi-Rosenthal box?  Improving ventilation and filtration makes a big difference.  Even just cracking windows helps more than you might think.

Ventilation is not very good and the windows do not open. I do have a HEPA air filter I bought for my home, which I *could* bring to the office for the week. I bought the air filter right before Thanksgiving thinking it couldn’t hurt. My son did test positive after TGing and nobody else got it at that time (although the other big kids did all subsequently get positives despite being vaxed). I have wondered if the filter helped. 

[catz]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

In theory, I could wear it the whole day, but in practice it would be difficult. For one thing, I talk on the phone many times a day (don’t tell old Quill; she would never apply in the first place;)) and it is really difficult to speak clearly on the phone through a good mask. 
 

Ugh - this is why transmission is happening in some masked school settings.  People can be good for an hour or 2 or maybe even 3.  But they get lazy, need to eat, need to drink, get hot, etc.  Kids especially are imperfect and eat lunch at school.  I'd ask to work at home for a couple weeks if possible.  

[Guest]

I should have also said, I can’t really work from home. He barely permitted half days when I was the one with an exposure. Coming back from him being out all week is going to be mayhem. Next week is…not something I’m looking forward to. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Ugh - this is why transmission is happening in some masked school settings.  People can be good for an hour or 2 or maybe even 3.  But they get lazy, need to eat, need to drink, get hot, etc.  Kids especially are imperfect and eat lunch at school.  I'd ask to work at home for a couple weeks if possible.  

I don’t think you’re wrong but he would never allow that. It’s part of the reason why this job was available in the first place, because the person I replaced did not want to be exposed at all. (Though I grant you, that was pre-vaccine.) I think he’s just too old school to really see how to do things as WFH. Maybe I’m too old as well, because alternative ways of doing stuff are not necessarily in my radar. 

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Yeah… it was -26 degrees F this morning here.  Breakfast was not happening outside!

They’re just playing a pretending game that everything is fine. 

Yeah that’s unbearable. I thought it was bad enough here because it was 12* when I woke up. 

[Faith-manor]

We are seeing a lot of "just like a cold" folks. I try not to laugh. They say this stuff on social media after two weeks in bed, and trips to the doctor's office. Sometimes s so have to refrain from spitting coffee across the screen. I have never had a cold lay me out for two weeks or cause me to need prescription drugs and IV antibodies to fix it. The closest I have come to needing an IV was after a stomach bug that lasted so long I hadn't been able to keep any fluids down for many, many many hours. I narrowly avoided it by getting a shot in the rump that paralyzed my system so I wouldn't fetch anymore. Then I could keep water down.

But a cold? Nah. Stuffy, nose runs for 5-7 days, maybe a little headachy. Nothing that put me off my feet or came with terrible fatigue. 

My former boss has it. The "it is just a cold guy" who is type 2 diabetic. His wife updates his condition on her Facebook page. "Nothing more than a cold" meanwhile in the next sentence saying he is coughing so hard he cannot talk, his blood sugar levels have gone entirely out of whack, he is so fatigued that day five of symptoms, he can just barely muster the energy to use the bathroom. Then she follows it up with "just like a cold". Nope lady. That is NOT a cold.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

My former boss has it. The "it is just a cold guy" who is type 2 diabetic. His wife updates his condition on her Facebook page. "Nothing more than a cold" meanwhile in the next sentence saying he is coughing so hard he cannot talk, his blood sugar levels have gone entirely out of whack, he is so fatigued that day five of symptoms, he can just barely muster the energy to use the bathroom. Then she follows it up with "just like a cold". Nope lady. That is NOT a cold.

Right. That is not what any cold I have had is like. Most colds I have ever had are 3-5 days, with typically one day and one night when I am very annoyed due to either inflamed sinuses, sore throat or incessant coughing. But the run-over-by-a-truck feeling is what I call “the flu”, even if it is not verified to be the bona fide influenza virus. To me, fevers, migraines, eyeballs that burn and ache, joint and muscle pain and fatigue that makes me sleep for twenty hours is “the flu”. I never call that a cold.