WWYD young adult child issues

[sweet2ndchance]

This isn’t necessarily a JAWM but this is a very hard and raw situation for me so please be gentle.

Due to a variety of circumstances, my adult dd(20) and I have been estranged for a number of years. I was finally able to contact her a couple of years ago and let her know that I wanted to talk to her. She was understandably upset with me but I told her I wanted to work through things and have a relationship with her. After her initial blow up at me, she didn’t respond to me for several months.

Then she messaged me out of the blue. Her father (my narcissistic ex-husband) and stepmother had kicked her out of their house for making fun of them with her boyfriend on her phone. (Or that’s the story she told me anyways, I have no way to know otherwise) So she had moved in with the boyfriend and his parents were charging her rent to stay in their house. I told her she was always welcome to come to my house if she ever needed somewhere to go but she told me she was happy where she was even if she had to work two jobs to make ends meet. (She was also having to pay her father for the brand new car he bought on his credit for her with the agreement that she was to make the payments).

We talked on and off. She said that she and her boyfriend wanted to come visit us(me, her stepdad and her half brother). I told her anytime, they were both welcome, and we would help with gas money or bus fare if needed (we live 8 hours away from each other). She said they would just need to figure out when they could get time off work. Sadly, it never happened.

Slowly, she stopped messaging me. Then stopped responding to my messages. I figured she was just a busy young adult with a lot on her plate. I went to send her a message on her birthday and the message would not go through. I tried several different ways and none would go through. The error message I was getting made it seem like she had blocked me. I was devastated. I was hurt. I had no idea what happened because nothing in our most recent messages to each other indicated that she was mad or upset with me.

A couple of months later, I had the thought, “What if she changed her name?” So I tried looking up her first name and boyfriend’s last name and sure enough I found her. Pictures of her wedding all over the page. I took a chance and messaged her under her new name. I told her I was sorry I missed her birthday and her wedding but that I would love to hear from her again and told her I loved her and missed her. The message I got back from her was pure vitriol. How I was a horrible mother and her step mother was far superior. She didn’t tell me about the wedding because she didn’t want me to show up uninvited “like I had been there for her all her life”. How I lied to her about everything, that I was angry that she found out I had lied, and she didn’t need me in her life. Many things she said were almost word for word things her father had said to me during the divorce. I recognized this and knew she was under his thumb again.

I calmly told her that there were some misunderstandings here and I wanted to talk them out with her. I told her I didn’t know what made her think I was angry with her because I have not been. At all. Let’s talk about this, can you tell me more about what you think I lied about? I ignored all the hate and vile she spewed at me because I recognized it as being parroted from her father and only focused on “what can we do to make this right?”

She responded with “I don’t want to argue with you. I don’t want to make things right. I don’t want a relationship with you. I want to live my happily ever after without you and you go live yours without me.” So, I sadly respected her wishes and did not contact her again after that.

That last exchange we had was in November. Fast forward to today, I get a message from her. All it says is, “I want my stuff. Can you mail it to me?”

I still have some of her childhood things from when she lived with me. They are in a hope chest in my bedroom.

My knee jerk reaction was “You want to treat me like you did in November and now you want a favor from me? Sorry, sweetie, but you want to be an adult and be treated like an adult then you have to live with the consequences of burning your bridges like an adult.” Fortunately, I’ve learned not to respond immediately. I haven’t responded to her at all yet.

Honestly, even if we had not had the exchange we had in November, I can’t afford to mail her all the stuff. It’s several, decently heavy, moving boxes full. It would cost a fortune no matter how I sent it. But, if she’s still under her father’s influence, that is going to result in a tantrum. He did pretty much the exact same thing during our divorce, demanded his stuff be brought to him and then tantrumed when I told him that I would meet him half way.

I don’t want to hold her stuff hostage but I don’t want her to think the way she treated me was ok either, ya know? Plus financially I can’t do exactly as she requested. I might be willing to meet her somewhere and give her the stuff but honestly right now, the way things are, I don’t feel safe being around her until she is ready to talk rationally. With a therapist in the room if at all possible.

I promised myself, and my kids, that I wouldn’t let anyone treat me the way their father treated me again. And I have kept that promise, I don’t let anyone mistreat me and then expect me to do things for them anymore. But this situation is giving me pause… I’m unsure how to proceed in a manner that enforces the boundary I’ve set of not letting people mistreat me and doing what is fair and right. I do know that no matter what I say or do, even if I find a way to mail the things to her, she will still be mad at me. But I do want her to know that when she is not spewing her father’s toxicity, she is always welcome here and we can always work things out if she is willing.

My husband (her stepdad) thinks I should just respond to her with “I don’t want to argue with you.” and leave it at that because she didn’t even have the courtesy to say something like “I’m sorry about how things ended last time but could you mail me my stuff please?” She just basically demanded I do this for her without acknowledging that she crossed a line last time we talked. I can’t say I don’t agree with him but I don’t know if it’s the approach I want to take.

So, how would you approach this? Please remember to be gentle.
 

[Kassia]

I really don't know what I'd do in your situation.  Well, I would do what you're doing - come here for wise advice from other WTM members.  Also, if I had access to a therapist I would discuss the situation with them to guide me on how to proceed.  But I wanted to send you the biggest hug and tell you I'm so sorry for your pain and loss.  

Edited January 21, 2022 by Kassia

[DawnM]

Just brainstorming here.

Does your son have a relationship with her.   Not to put him in the middle, but is he able to reason with her a bit better?   Does he ever see her and could he get some of the stuff to her?

I am assuming she wouldn't be open to a mediator of any kind?   I was thinking that maybe not meeting with you alone would maybe help her consider a discussion?

Could you send it in parts?   Ask her what is most important that you send first.   that would force her to communicate a little more and comments like, "Oh, I remember when you wore that to homecoming, you looked great that night."   from you might make her think a little.

I am so sorry.   It must be the deepest kind of hurt.   I have friends facing things similar to this and it is just heartbreaking.

[Eos]

I'm so sorry this has happened and continues.  I guess I would weep, scrape together or borrow the money, and send her stuff so it never becomes the next issue.  I would probably include a very short note that had a bold "I" statement like "I feel sad we are not talking.  If one day we can have a mutually respectful relationship, I will be ready for that."

[HomeAgain]

I want to be gentle here.

She's 20.  There's some views there she may not have at 30.  Or, she might, but with more clarity.

She's an adult you don't have a relationship with.  Not really, I mean.  You had some more superficial conversation, but there doesn't appear to be an emotional connection reformed on her part unless I missed that. While you consider her your daughter, she doesn't appear ready for the same sort of relationship with you.

I would mail her her things.  And then I'd let her decide to reach out sometime later in life if she wanted to.  But I don't think you're going to get anywhere by continuing to reach out to her. It may be time to grieve the relationship you had and lay it to rest.

ETA: since you cannot mail it, I'd offer to drop it off at a trusted friend or family member of hers.

Edited January 21, 2022 by HomeAgain

[J-rap]

I'm so incredibly sorry for what must be so many painful things you've experienced. 

Your dd is very young, and probably only really understands such a small part of whatever the situation is.  All she can do is try and process what must've felt very difficult and personal for her in the only way her brain knows how, based on her experiences and life thus far.  Probably all she "understands" is that you weren't there for her when she needed you.  So, as difficult as it is, I would try and put aside her attitude and reactions.

I believe you have to first meet the person where their greatest need is, or you won't get anywhere in the relationship.  Her greatest need (as far as her relationship with you goes), is simply to know that she is loved and valued by you unconditionally and that you're there for her.  You can do that without allowing her to cross boundaries that are unhealthy.

It will probably take years to get to that point since she has been told a different story for years.  It will require lots of loving patience on your part.  Please don't give up.

What I would do in this situation is send her a small box with a few of her special things in it, with a card reminding her that you love her so much and always will, and that you hope that someday you and she can talk so that you'll both have a chance to ask questions, to listen to each other, to understand each other, to work toward healing your relationship.  I think I'd also include in that box a small wedding gift that you think might be meaningful to her.  Then you can tell her that you have her other things packaged up in boxes, and while they are too big to send, she is welcome to come by anytime to pick them up and they'll be waiting for her.  (Or, drop them off at a friend's house as poster above mentioned, if your dd would prefer that.)

In case this story is helpful at all.... A good friend of mine went through something vaguely similar with her own girls.  It was a really heart-wrenching time for her that went on for years, but she never gave up on them and kept lovingly and gently pursing them.   Over time, her girls came to understand that she had been just as much a victim as they were.  Now, all three girls (ages 16, 22, and 29) live with her and love her.  She's careful about her relationship with them ~  She doesn't feel that she has a "right" as a typical mother might to tell them what to do given their history;  she simply loves them and accepts them just as they are.   Of course there are rules of respect that they all go by, but even that is a work in progress given what all they've been through.  Anyway, I think it's really an encouraging story because they're all learning to love each other and forgive each other and trust each other.

 

[kristin0713]

This is a really hard situation. I’m sorry. I think talking to a counselor is a great idea. Regarding the stuff, you do not have an obligation to send it. Several heavy boxes, you’re right, would cost a fortune. It’s been years and she just now wants her stuff back? Somehow, and I don’t know the best wording, I would communicate to her that her things are safe and available when she is able to get them. Meeting halfway could be an option and you’d love to talk. Shipping is just not possible due to the expense. 

[Scarlett]

What occurs to me is there is no ‘right’ or perfect answer.  These situations are difficult and painful. 

Btw, we have a ‘support for parents of young adults’ group.  I thought you were already a member. 

[sweet2ndchance]

Dawn_M, When she lived with me, her half-brother was an infant. He was her baby and she loved nothing more than to take care of him. She was 12-ish at the time.

She went to live with her father when her half brother was 11 months old. She blames me for taking her half brother away from her even though that is not what happened at all. During the time we were talking to each other, she never asked about her half brother at all. He's just turned 9 years old now. He has no memory of her. He knows about her and has seen pictures of her and we answer questions about her and his other siblings as best we can but he's not old enough to be a mediator between nor would I want to put him in that situation.

I've thought about sending it in parts. But I'm afraid it will always be an issue just like it is with her father. He is still taking me to court for things as recently as last fall. Including things that he swears I still have in my possession that are his that I never had possession of or already gave him.

J-rap, thank you for your story. That is what I want, to lovingly and gently pursue all my kids that I lost in the divorce. I've had contact with my oldest son, even got to spend the day with him and give him some of his stuff. But same thing happened, everything was going fine, we were talking about meeting up again and he just ghosted me one day. Won't respond to messages or phone calls. Second oldest son will have nothing to do with me at all. Then there is dd. And then I have another dd and another ds younger than her that I have been unable to contact as they are still minors and I can't find contact information for them. I don't want to parent them per se, I realize that that ship has sailed but I would like to have a relationship with all of them but I'm still learning to have and enforce boundaries.

Scarlett, you're right. There probably is no right or perfect answer here. My husband put it "The right answer is the one you can live with the easiest" No I'm not a member of the parents of young adults group. I'll look into it though.

Thanks everyone for your kind words and suggestions. They really are helping me weigh out the different ways this could go from here. Please keep them coming!

[Soror]

That is so hard. I cannot imagine. I pray one day they will see his lies. 

I think I would offer to meet half-way or perhaps send your dh if that would be better (for you). 

I also like the idea of potentially dropping it off somewhere for her if there is any mutual acquaintance (your family?) at a reasonable distance that she is in contact with.

Great idea to ask her to brainstorm too. It is ok to say I can't ship these it is too big. How do you think I could get them to you?

Best wishes!!!

[saraha]

I like J-raps idea.

I’m sorry this wound keeps being ripped open for you. I applaud your deployment of boundaries and have to admit that my first reaction to that request would be to be shocked and ticked off. The idea that you return love for evil is so difficult, but made easier by the physical distance between you. You are in such a tough spot.

It feels like she’s testing you, and if she has a narcissistic father, her head has been filled with all kinds of garbage for her formative years and is probably still getting, and that would be an uphill battle to change for sure. Since dealing with my own narcissist, I bet that her dad found out she was in contact with you and doubled down, hence the latest cut off.  By sending the small box, she can’t accuse you of ignoring her request, while at the same time keeping your boundaries, and you are able to show you still care about her.

[Janeway]

2 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

This isn’t necessarily a JAWM but this is a very hard and raw situation for me so please be gentle.

 

 

 

So, how would you approach this? Please remember to be gentle.
 

That is your stuff. Ignore her text. Wait until she comes to you, in person, and calmly discusses it with you. You owe her nothing. Wait until she calmly comes to you, in person, and agrees to come to your house to get it.  Just act sweet and calm about everything. Don't lash back, don't get sucked in to any of it.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Janeway

[Faith-manor]

Shipping is out of the question, and under these circumstances, given how immature she is being, I would not want to meet in person.

My inclination, so she can't say you held her things hostage, would be to box it up and drive it to a location such as grandma or aunt's house, and drop it on the porch, take a picture of it on that porch, send to her to prove you did that, and then drive back home. I know you said it is 8 hours. But if these boxes are heavy and you have a vehicle that gets good gas mileage, you could save cost over shipping. Drive there, drop it, turn around immediately and when tired, pull into a rest area and sleep a couple hours. If you pack your own food, again assuming you have a vehicle that is not too expensive for fuel costs, it will be cheaper than shipping.

Otherwise, tell her she can have it when she can meet half way, and only on a day when your husband can go with you as a witness, and photograph the exchange so she can't lie later, and say she didn't get the stuff. My guess is she is the golden child of your narcissistic ex, and so he manipulates her to keep hurting you because you dared to stand up to him. If she likes her position as golden child, she will continue to pander to him. Obviously the falling out when he asked her to leave, and he is calling the shots again, so you want to have proof that you made the exchange.

I am so sorry this is happening! It must be so heart breaking. I hope you can find a support group.

[wintermom]

I'm so sorry.

I would find the cheapest way to get the stuff to her. By bus, in smaller chunks over time, whatever it takes. 

[Selkie]

29 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I'm so sorry.

I would find the cheapest way to get the stuff to her. By bus, in smaller chunks over time, whatever it takes. 

I agree with this - sending her smaller boxes over time until she has all of it.

[wintermom]

I would try to separate in your mind, and in your responses, your dd from your ex-dh. It sounds like your dd has been caught in the middle of a very sad situation through no real fault of her own. If she thinks it's important for her to have her stuff, especially now that she has a new husband and they are building their lives together, then just do what you can, when you can. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm so sorry.  How heartbreaking.

You're clearly in an unfair situation-don't start demanding fairness now and think that's going to lay a foundation for a future relationship.  She's not operating by normal relationship rules. Your ex-husband's influence on her is going to have an ongoing effect. Demanding fairness won't negate that.  Now that she's an adult she'll start getting some perspective on life which will hopefully her some insight, but that's going to take time. 

I wouldn't make an issue of stuff.  Stuff is never worth a relationship strain, even if you're not the one causing the strain.  She's not in an emotional state to calmly talk about anything. If you truly can't afford to mail it, tell her so as simply and matter of factly as possible. I would either offer to take the stuff to a neutral location (extended family member/friend of the family's house?) and drop it off so she can pick it up when I'm not there or I would arrange to put it outside my front door at a certain time on a certain day that she agreed to so she or someone else she chooses can pick it up without me interacting with her if that's what she prefers. It is her stuff, so she's entitled to it. 

Going forward, I want to point something out. I wouldn't go sleuthing (looking up her married name) to initiate contact with someone who had sent clear signals they don't want contact. When someone stops responding to you they're telling you they don't want contact. She chose to go no contact for whatever reason, even if it's terrible reason, and you didn't respect that choice. That's going to cause escalating tension.  Take people at their word-if they say they're not interested in contact, then respect it even if they're being ridiculous. Let them have no contact so they can see if that's what they really want. She knows how to contact you if she changes her mind. Leave the ball in her court until she puts it back in yours.

[alisoncooks]

That sounds so difficult. I can’t even imagine. 

Maybe offer to send (whatever *you’re* willing to part with), enough to fill a large, flat rate box. That’ll run you $20-30. Then she can pay to have other stuff shipped over time? 

[Starr]

I would sit on this for a long while before I did or did not do anything. You can't change her narrative no matter what you do. Most young adults would drive that far and pick up their own things. It's not your responsibility to pay for the postage.  Does she even remember what all you have stored at your house? They are once again telling you how to behave. I'm so sorry.

[Spryte]

I’m so sorry. That makes my heart hurt for you.

I think I would be as agreeable as possible about sending her stuff, and offer to take it to someone else’s house or to meet her, or any of the other suggestions. As a back up, I’d ask if there are a few specific items she’s looking for, and offer to mail those. I’d send a wedding gift, as well. If you come up with a way to send her things, do so. It sounds like they are the next Holy Grail for her, and you don’t want to keep them from her.

Gently, I am basically 30 years into an estrangement from a family member that I did not choose, and still don’t want. I don’t have great advice, but therapy helps. That, and knowing that I never gave up. My door has always been open, but I don’t push. So, I would always find a way to leave the door cracked for her. And I would find a way to live with things as they are, for yourself. For me, someone once said something that struck me in way that I could live with, regarding a painful disappointment during the early years of estrangement. She said, “Some things we have to leave for the next life.” That probably won’t be your thing, but it resonated for me. 

[catz]

I wouldn't ship that much stuff either.  Way way too expensive.  She has a car right?  She could in theory come get it if she wanted.  I probably wouldn't try to hold her stuff hostage though either.   That said, I also wouldn't want to hoop jump to find a bus that would transport or break stuff down to ship in chunks, etc.  She is old enough to do that leg work if it means so much to her.

I'd just say something like "unfortunately it is not financially feasible for me to ship it.  Let me know if you want to make arrangements to pick it up." and leave it at that.  I'm sorry you're dealing with this, I hope you find good support and help to move on.  

[Carrie12345]

I don’t want to assume circumstances because it’s truly not fair, but I would think they’re pretty heavy given that at least most of 5 kids were minors and there’s no contact information for some minors today.  I am guessing that there’s a TON of hurt involved over many years, whatever the perceived reason. Whatever misunderstandings there may be, they’re definitely not easily solvable with even a few conversations. But one negative reaction will super easily fuel that hurt.

I do think that, if at all possible, dropping them off somewhere would be a real show of goodwill.  Otherwise, making them available for easy pick up is perfectly reasonable. Shipping is understandably a huge financial burden and a ridiculous ask.

 

[Loowit]

My first thought is that she doesn't want the stuff, she just wants to see your reaction, but I could be off base.  I would probably ask her what exactly it is she wants.  She may not want everything you have, but just a few things that may not be as expensive to ship.  I think that you are in a tough spot where there is no good answer.  No matter what you do, she will still perceive it as you didn't do it right.

What I would be tempted to do is to offer to send it once she provides the money for shipping.  I think dropping it off for her to pick up at a mutual friend or relatives would also work if there is such a place/person.  Take pictures of everything.

I can't imagine how painful this must be for you. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I would probably photograph all that was there, just to document it, and tell her that it is too much to ship.  Offer to drop it off with a relative of your choosing near her.

There may come a time when she has a more level head, there may not be.  Right now you are wanting a healthy, loving relationship and it sounds like she is not able to give that to you. There's no "winning" in narcissistic relationships, so choose to do what will let you sleep at night. 

[Spryte]

I like the idea of photographing it all, so and telling her it’s too much to ship. You could offer to ship a few very special items, for now. Let her know it’s all available any time she wants to come get it. Offer to leave it out for her, if she doesn’t want contact, or to drop at a trusted person’s house, if she’d prefer not come to your house. Or offer to meet halfway and exchange, if it will all fit in your vehicle. 

I would not say that it’s too expensive to ship it, as that will probably be held against you, too, later. I can definitely see that being held against you by some people, of a certain type, at some point. Unfortunately. I don’t know about the people involved in her life, but that’s definitely something I could see happening.

I would be focused on doing and saying the things that I can live with, later. Maintain your integrity, do the best you can to do the “right” thing, and know that you will live with how you handle this — so make it good. 
 

 

[Murphy101]

There’s not a right answer. Otoh, it’s be nice to at least have an address to send cards to? If you mail it - will it be to her actual address? I’d do that for specific items she asks for IF I still even had them. When my troubled son left home - he left a hot mess for us to deal with and frankly we did not keep 95% of it after waiting months before deciding we couldn’t just leave the hot mess any longer.

[lauraw4321]

I’m so sorry. I have no idea what I would do. My gut says I would photograph / inventory, send her a box that I could afford to along with the photographs / inventory of the rest, offer a way for her to get the rest on her own. I think I just wouldn’t respond to the nastiness. 

[Catwoman]

5 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

Dawn_M, When she lived with me, her half-brother was an infant. He was her baby and she loved nothing more than to take care of him. She was 12-ish at the time.

She went to live with her father when her half brother was 11 months old. She blames me for taking her half brother away from her even though that is not what happened at all. During the time we were talking to each other, she never asked about her half brother at all. He's just turned 9 years old now. He has no memory of her. He knows about her and has seen pictures of her and we answer questions about her and his other siblings as best we can but he's not old enough to be a mediator between nor would I want to put him in that situation.

I've thought about sending it in parts. But I'm afraid it will always be an issue just like it is with her father. He is still taking me to court for things as recently as last fall. Including things that he swears I still have in my possession that are his that I never had possession of or already gave him.

J-rap, thank you for your story. That is what I want, to lovingly and gently pursue all my kids that I lost in the divorce. I've had contact with my oldest son, even got to spend the day with him and give him some of his stuff. But same thing happened, everything was going fine, we were talking about meeting up again and he just ghosted me one day. Won't respond to messages or phone calls. Second oldest son will have nothing to do with me at all. Then there is dd. And then I have another dd and another ds younger than her that I have been unable to contact as they are still minors and I can't find contact information for them. I don't want to parent them per se, I realize that that ship has sailed but I would like to have a relationship with all of them but I'm still learning to have and enforce boundaries.

Scarlett, you're right. There probably is no right or perfect answer here. My husband put it "The right answer is the one you can live with the easiest" No I'm not a member of the parents of young adults group. I'll look into it though.

Thanks everyone for your kind words and suggestions. They really are helping me weigh out the different ways this could go from here. Please keep them coming!

 

I'm sorry if I seem clueless here, but I feel like maybe I have missed a lot of backstory here that other people already know. Are you saying that you lost custody of 5 of your children to your ex-dh, and that you have no visitation rights and no right to any contact with them at all? 

I can't figure out how old your other kids are, but are there any legal avenues you can pursue to get some sort of visitation or contact with them? Do you still have boxes of all of their stuff, too? I'm only asking these questions because I am thinking that the way you handle this issue with your dd may come into play when your other kids get older and want their things, as well.

 

[sweet2ndchance]

Faith-manor, her younger sister was her father's golden child. That child could do no wrong and if I tried to make her do chores with the other kids or discipline her in any way, he was there to bail her out. Dd(20) always wanted her father's attention and love the way that he seemed to love her younger sister. I'm guessing that he is using this fact to manipulate her and of course use it to hurt me whenever possible.

I do recognize this which is why so much of what she has said to me doesn't affect me as much as it could. It's painful, it does hurt but I remind myself it's not her talking, it's him and she is just his puppet right now. 

Catwoman, I don't share this a lot because it is painful to me, so no you are not missing a ton of back story, I just have not shared it before now.

<Deleted for identifying details - thanks for not quoting >

Edited January 22, 2022 by sweet2ndchance

[scholastica]

I am so so sorry for all you have been through. Praying for you and your children, especially reunification.

[Melissa Louise]

Sending gentle hugs. 

[gardenmom5]

I'm sorry.

I would be forthright about what items you have, how many boxes they take up, how much the boxes weigh, the size of the boxes, etc.

Let her know the estimate for shipping it to her, and that you are unable to afford it in one lump.   If she wants to pick it up, or a friend in your area, etc.- they're welcome to do so.

She's a married adult - she needs to learn to act like an adult.  And an adult - wouldn't throw a tantrum.

 

eta: I would also suggest you watch some of Dr. Ramani's youtube videos.  It might give you insight about what you can do, and why she behaves the way she does.

Edited January 22, 2022 by gardenmom5

[J-rap]

Oh man, I'm sorry to hear more of your story and what you've been through.  It seems so unfair that some people start out life with so many things already stacked against them!  I hope your now husband is a good man and you have some happiness in your life.

I would encourage you to consider fighting to gain custody of your children who are still minors.  Yes, it would be upending them yet again, but based on what you're saying, it seems like they'd be much better off with you.  Every additional year they have in a distorted, sick environment will not only affect their present life but their chances of living a better future life.  

I know that probably feels overwhelming, but you may be the only advocate they have.  Sometimes the best answer is not the easiest answer.

Edited January 22, 2022 by J-rap

[teachermom2834]

I'm sorry. This is so complicated.

I think what I would suggest is to tell her you would like to get her what she wants but it is too much for you to send. Ask her which things are most important so you can be sure to send them asap and then package them nicely and get them out to her. Just ignore all the nastiness (as hard as I know that is!). I would probably stick in a little wedding card and some token gift card to Target or something.

I would then tell her that you want to help her get the rest of her stuff and make some other suggestions (meet halfway, drop off to another location, send bit by bit, whatever). It is just too much to ship, and you are sorry about that, but you do want her to have it and here are some options...

And not that she deserves any of those niceties. She shouldn't be rude and she shouldn't throw tantrums and she is not being fair to you in the least. I wouldn't do any of those things because she deserved them or because you owed them or were obligated. I would suggest you do that just as a gift with no strings. An olive branch, a seed, or what have you/ that may or may not bear anything ever.

But I'm not a therapist and maybe that is an unhealthy approach for your own mental health? So I definitely think that is something bigger to consider,of course. But if this is just about relationships with adult kids, that is the approach I would take. 

[Insertcreativenamehere]

OP, my heart is broken for you. I'm so sorry for what you have gone through. 🙏

[annandatje]

I am sorry that contact with her did not turn out to be what you had anticipated or hoped for. 

One parent alienating another is downright evil to both the alienated parent and to the child who has been indoctrinated against the parent.  A friend of mine who was the parental victim of alienation from children by narcissist ex has suffered terribly and still does to this day.  She has occasional contact with children but in no time they revert back to parroting revisionist history that their father provided.  Her ex has extended their children's alienation to include maternal aunts, uncles and grandparents.

At this juncture, assuming you have an address, ship *all* her personal belongings to her without any further communication.  I advise NOT asking for reimbursement for shipping costs unless you are unable to afford the cost.   UPDATE:  Faith-manor's advice to drop off at home of relative or friend is better choice.  The topic of cost will not come up in that scenario.

It sounds as if she has blocked you and decided to go non contact with you.  Unfortunately there is nothing you can do at the point without driving her further away.

Hopefully in time she will mature enough to recognize that while things were difficult, you have always loved her.  The ball is in her court now.

Edited January 22, 2022 by annandatje

[Tap]

She doesn't need anything in the boxes. If she wants them, she can come get them. If they are a priority to her, she will come get them. You shouldn't have to pay to ship things, that she may not even want anymore. If you were wealthy and it wouldn't be a big deal to do it, sure ship away! Just to have on less thing to hold on to. But if shipping them would cause you financial discomfort, then nope! Not doing it. 

I would tell her she is welcome in your home, and she is absolutely welcome to come get her items. If she doesn't want to see you, she can send her husband or a friend. She is an adult and she should accept the responsibility of retrieving the items she left at your home. 

[gardenmom5]

15 minutes ago, annandatje said:

I ship *all* her personal belongings to her without any further communication.  I advise NOT asking for reimbursement for shipping costs unless you are unable to afford the cost. 

 

I went to ship one SMALL box to dd - it was $26.  (I didn't ship - I now take stuff with me on the plane when I visit her.)

Shipping boxes is expensive and can fast creep into the hundreds of dollars in postage for multiple large boxes.  For some people, that's a minor expense, for others that's simply out of reach.

[maize]

Maybe you could get out the boxes, photograph what you have of hers, and send her the photos asking which items specifically she wants. Explain that you cannot afford to ship all of it but could ship one small box; she is welcome to come to your house and pick up the rest any time. 

Love, mom.

[maize]

She doesn't sound like she is mentally healthy, and at this point there is nothing at all you can do about that. What you are doing--trying to not take attacks personally, and leaving a door open should she reach a point where she wants to build a relationship--is all you can do.

((()))

[DoraBora]

OP, I'm so sorry to read about your troubles, and I admire the way you seem to be bearing up.  I have a friend who is going through this sort of thing right now.  She is devastated -- it is so painful.  There's no winning in these situations. 

I agree with the middle of the road approach suggested by others upthread.  A small box of things you guess she would want most -- not that she needs them or even remembers them.  It's a gesture.  That, along with a simple gift and wishes for happiness in her new marriage would be a generous indication of your goodwill toward her.

I also like the idea of sending photos of the other things along with a suggestion of her coming to collect them from a neutral location. 

If you do decide to send anything, I would make it signature-required.

Just my $0.02.  Many hugs - you are in my thoughts.

[Ceilingfan]

I would get a new lawyer, explain all of this to them, and ask if the previous lawyer can be pursued for a malpractice claim. Given all of those facts, it seems like a few (free! likely) consultations with lawyers would make a huge difference. Just because you signed something once (or your lawyer signed it for you?) doesn't mean that it is permanent; family courts generally really prefer kids to have meaningful contact with both parents, and visitation only at the discretion of the parent with primary custody is normally reserved for cases where there is extensive documented abuse, current drug issues, etc. - and even then, mandated supervised visitation is normal.

This is all just very abnormal, and I think talking to a few lawyers about it to see what can be done is in your best interest and your kids' best interests.

 

For the stuff, I'd just tell her you can't afford to mail it, but she's welcome to come get it. Or hang onto it if you prefer.

[Scarlett]

I wept as I read this. I am so sorry. 

[goldberry]

The child custody system can cause so much destruction.  It's insane how much can just be decided by in individual judge, regardless of facts.

I am SO SORRY.

[sweet2ndchance]

I'm having a rough day mentally today. I want to respond to you all but I don't think I am able to today.

I will return when I am able and respond. For now I just want to say thank you and you all have given me a lot to think about and consider.

[Wishes]

I’m so sorry this happened to you. It makes my heart ache for you and your children.

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

I'm having a rough day mentally today. I want to respond to you all but I don't think I am able to today.

I will return when I am able and respond. For now I just want to say thank you and you all have given me a lot to think about and consider.

I am sure talking about all of that has really sent you spinning.  I am so sorry.  

[MercyA]

Other have given such good advice. I especially agreed with what J-rap said. I have nothing to add except great sympathy for your situation and hugs for you. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by MercyA

[Reefgazer]

On 1/21/2022 at 6:36 AM, sweet2ndchance said:

This isn’t necessarily a JAWM but this is a very hard and raw situation for me so please be gentle.

Due to a variety of circumstances, my adult dd(20) and I have been estranged for a number of years. I was finally able to contact her a couple of years ago and let her know that I wanted to talk to her. She was understandably upset with me but I told her I wanted to work through things and have a relationship with her. After her initial blow up at me, she didn’t respond to me for several months.

Then she messaged me out of the blue. Her father (my narcissistic ex-husband) and stepmother had kicked her out of their house for making fun of them with her boyfriend on her phone. (Or that’s the story she told me anyways, I have no way to know otherwise) So she had moved in with the boyfriend and his parents were charging her rent to stay in their house. I told her she was always welcome to come to my house if she ever needed somewhere to go but she told me she was happy where she was even if she had to work two jobs to make ends meet. (She was also having to pay her father for the brand new car he bought on his credit for her with the agreement that she was to make the payments).

We talked on and off. She said that she and her boyfriend wanted to come visit us(me, her stepdad and her half brother). I told her anytime, they were both welcome, and we would help with gas money or bus fare if needed (we live 8 hours away from each other). She said they would just need to figure out when they could get time off work. Sadly, it never happened.

Slowly, she stopped messaging me. Then stopped responding to my messages. I figured she was just a busy young adult with a lot on her plate. I went to send her a message on her birthday and the message would not go through. I tried several different ways and none would go through. The error message I was getting made it seem like she had blocked me. I was devastated. I was hurt. I had no idea what happened because nothing in our most recent messages to each other indicated that she was mad or upset with me.

A couple of months later, I had the thought, “What if she changed her name?” So I tried looking up her first name and boyfriend’s last name and sure enough I found her. Pictures of her wedding all over the page. I took a chance and messaged her under her new name. I told her I was sorry I missed her birthday and her wedding but that I would love to hear from her again and told her I loved her and missed her. The message I got back from her was pure vitriol. How I was a horrible mother and her step mother was far superior. She didn’t tell me about the wedding because she didn’t want me to show up uninvited “like I had been there for her all her life”. How I lied to her about everything, that I was angry that she found out I had lied, and she didn’t need me in her life. Many things she said were almost word for word things her father had said to me during the divorce. I recognized this and knew she was under his thumb again.

I calmly told her that there were some misunderstandings here and I wanted to talk them out with her. I told her I didn’t know what made her think I was angry with her because I have not been. At all. Let’s talk about this, can you tell me more about what you think I lied about? I ignored all the hate and vile she spewed at me because I recognized it as being parroted from her father and only focused on “what can we do to make this right?”

She responded with “I don’t want to argue with you. I don’t want to make things right. I don’t want a relationship with you. I want to live my happily ever after without you and you go live yours without me.” So, I sadly respected her wishes and did not contact her again after that.

That last exchange we had was in November. Fast forward to today, I get a message from her. All it says is, “I want my stuff. Can you mail it to me?”

I still have some of her childhood things from when she lived with me. They are in a hope chest in my bedroom.

My knee jerk reaction was “You want to treat me like you did in November and now you want a favor from me? Sorry, sweetie, but you want to be an adult and be treated like an adult then you have to live with the consequences of burning your bridges like an adult.” Fortunately, I’ve learned not to respond immediately. I haven’t responded to her at all yet.

Honestly, even if we had not had the exchange we had in November, I can’t afford to mail her all the stuff. It’s several, decently heavy, moving boxes full. It would cost a fortune no matter how I sent it. But, if she’s still under her father’s influence, that is going to result in a tantrum. He did pretty much the exact same thing during our divorce, demanded his stuff be brought to him and then tantrumed when I told him that I would meet him half way.

I don’t want to hold her stuff hostage but I don’t want her to think the way she treated me was ok either, ya know? Plus financially I can’t do exactly as she requested. I might be willing to meet her somewhere and give her the stuff but honestly right now, the way things are, I don’t feel safe being around her until she is ready to talk rationally. With a therapist in the room if at all possible.

I promised myself, and my kids, that I wouldn’t let anyone treat me the way their father treated me again. And I have kept that promise, I don’t let anyone mistreat me and then expect me to do things for them anymore. But this situation is giving me pause… I’m unsure how to proceed in a manner that enforces the boundary I’ve set of not letting people mistreat me and doing what is fair and right. I do know that no matter what I say or do, even if I find a way to mail the things to her, she will still be mad at me. But I do want her to know that when she is not spewing her father’s toxicity, she is always welcome here and we can always work things out if she is willing.

My husband (her stepdad) thinks I should just respond to her with “I don’t want to argue with you.” and leave it at that because she didn’t even have the courtesy to say something like “I’m sorry about how things ended last time but could you mail me my stuff please?” She just basically demanded I do this for her without acknowledging that she crossed a line last time we talked. I can’t say I don’t agree with him but I don’t know if it’s the approach I want to take.

So, how would you approach this? Please remember to be gentle.
 

You can't force  a relationship.  Although I am only hearing your side of the story, it seems your DD has some serious problems that need the help of a professional; this you will not be able to fix.

 

Tell your DD you cannot afford to send the boxes, but she is free to come pick them up at a mutually agreeable time (when your husband is home or a trusted friend is with you).  Hang up the phone if she screams or verbally abuses you in any way.  And then drop it.  If she wants the boxes badly enough, she'' come get them.  

[Marissa]

On 1/22/2022 at 12:42 PM, Tap said:

She doesn't need anything in the boxes. If she wants them, she can come get them. If they are a priority to her, she will come get them. You shouldn't have to pay to ship things, that she may not even want anymore. If you were wealthy and it wouldn't be a big deal to do it, sure ship away! Just to have on less thing to hold on to. But if shipping them would cause you financial discomfort, then nope! Not doing it. 

I would tell her she is welcome in your home, and she is absolutely welcome to come get her items. If she doesn't want to see you, she can send her husband or a friend. She is an adult and she should accept the responsibility of retrieving the items she left at your home. 

Yea this sounds like me when i was that age, im 33 now; i was a very angry person and my parents were very emotionally neglectful altho i didnt know  what was going on as a kid, i grew up with tons of mental health issues that led to self soothing with substances and literally at that point in my life, i did not understand the concept of personal responsibility.  
 

it took me getting sober and hitting rock bottom to realize that at the end of the day, even though my childhood was far from ideal, living from a place of its everyone elses fault and trying to validate my opinion allowed me to act rude entitled and selfish because i thought that it was my parents fault i was not happy. 
 

I am 33 and im sober now but it took a lot of radical honesty with myself and owning that i had so much anger i was holding onto and blame and shame but it wasnt getting me anywhere in life. 
 

if anything it kept me powerless to change things until i realized that at the end of the day, staying in that victim mentality was just keeping me stuck i  the idea that i deserve to be rude and unkind because i went through xyz

i think its unfortunate that as children that we go through difficult things, but i try to think tjat my parents ddi the best they could with what they had, and now its my job to figure out where i needed to grow and what i needed to learn to be more successful at coping with uncomfortable feelings   The more you resist the more the issues tend to persist   And a lot of people with narc parents end up either mirroring the behavior of the narc, because they learn that is how you get things you want, from watching the parent  they also tend to be more concerned about power in situations instead of wanting approval  

i wouldnt answer her; it sounds like she was looking for someone to get into it with, because for some reason one of rhe ways they exert control when they feel they dont have it is by baiting other people by saying things they know are attempts at provoking the others but not in a way thats so obvious that you know for sure  

she is devaluing, discarding and baiting you to see your reaction or try to get eome narc “supply” which is why the stuff they do and say makes no sense to a person who doesnt use these tactics to get their needs met