Women and Value

[Ann.without.an.e]

I don't think you have to have insta to watch this. 

Just putting it right here to hopefully start a convo. How do we keep from feeling like our whole worth is in this?  Thoughts, ideas?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CYpEFasldCm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

ETA: for me personally, I give and I give and I give on all sides and tbh I'm about spent. Not only to my own family but to so many others. My own mom (love her to pieces) is 61 and she's never been the maternal/caretaker type. I've been the one to take care of everyone in my extended family for years.  Even when I was full of little ones, I had to host all the holidays and cook all the food and serve everyone (parents, siblings, etc) or it wouldn't get done. I wonder how much of it I pick up and carry because my worth is far too tied to it?  Just some rambling thoughts really. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Katy]

I don’t know any answers, but it’s an interesting question. I’m not sure it’s culturally driven so much as hormonally driven though. 

[Janeway]

11 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I don't think you have to have insta to watch this. 

Just putting it right here to hopefully start a convo. How do we keep from feeling like our whole worth is in this?  Thoughts, ideas?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CYpEFasldCm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

ETA: for me personally, I give and I give and I give on all sides and tbh I'm about spent. Not only to my own family but to so many others. My own mom (love her to pieces) is 61 and she's never been the maternal/caretaker type. I've been the one to take care of everyone in my extended family for years.  Even when I was full of little ones, I had to host all the holidays and cook all the food and serve everyone (parents, siblings, etc) or it wouldn't get done. I wonder how much of it I pick up and carry because my worth is far too tied to it?  Just some rambling thoughts really. 

I was not raised how she is describing. AND, what she is missing is, she is very concerned with how others are judging her. Her entire video is about how others see her, or see women in general. There is a problem with how women are perceived. I have noticed even with scouts, when a man volunteers, he is amazing and people want to know where the mom is, is she even involved. But a woman can do a ton of work and she is ignored. It is just expected. And the women are blamed for every single thing. If a man doesn't do dishes, people say "didn't your mother teach you this?" Or "his mother didn't raise him right." If he treats women well, then "his mother raised him well." Moms are blamed for everything.

[Melissa Louise]

Yeah, I grew up thinking I had to be a 'good girl' to have value, and it got me into bad places. 

I'm trying to remedy this now, not by being 'bad' but by coming at things from a different, more self compassionate, less constantly self-sacrificing  angle. 

As an example, an old friend texted wanting to know when a good time to chat is. 

If I was still fixated on showing my worth as a good friend, I'd have scheduled it, despite not wanting to talk to this old friend, because she talks non-stop about herself and cannot change this dynamic, despite me addressing it gently with her over the years. I feel bad when I spend time with her, even though I love her. 

This time, I did something different. Suggested that email was best for me. She wants to tell me all about her news, I love her, but I can't hear it knowing that my news will be a two minute postscript at the end of an hour chat.

I CAN deal with it by email. 

I valued my needs more than I did being a 'good' friend.

Because truly, I am worth at least as much as my friend is worth. I'm as valuable as any other human on the planet. 

But that stance is hard won, unfortunately, and late. 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

My grandmothers migrated from China and they won’t expected to be homemaker matriarches. My paternal grandma helped run the family business until she passed. My maternal grandma was a landlord until she passed. Majority of my lady cousins married into family businesses.

My MIL however does fit into the stereotype but none of my FIL’s sisters fit that stereotype. In my MIL’s case it was self worth as her family of origin was very poor and she was married off as soon as she was 18. She didn’t get to finish elementary school. She thinks my generation of females has it lucky.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Arcadia
Typo

[Ann.without.an.e]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

Because truly, I am worth at least as much as my friend is worth. I'm as valuable as any other human on the planet. 

But that stance is hard won, unfortunately, and late. 

 

 

 

 

I'm just braving this inner work and I'm struggling but this is really good. For me, it is mostly family so it is a bit more tricky. My friends are very easy going and not too needy but my fam is everything and I do believe I wrap my entire worth too much around taking care of them. 

 

7 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I was not raised how she is describing. AND, what she is missing is, she is very concerned with how others are judging her. Her entire video is about how others see her, or see women in general. There is a problem with how women are perceived. I have noticed even with scouts, when a man volunteers, he is amazing and people want to know where the mom is, is she even involved. But a woman can do a ton of work and she is ignored. It is just expected. And the women are blamed for every single thing. If a man doesn't do dishes, people say "didn't your mother teach you this?" Or "his mother didn't raise him right." If he treats women well, then "his mother raised him well." Moms are blamed for everything.

 

I don't know that I was really raised that way either? Tbh my parents were so hands off that I can't say I was raised any particular way.

This is my own doing haha. I def feel like moms take the blame for everything. Maybe because we are naturally the more hands-on caregivers? Not sure. 

[Melissa Louise]

It's very true that the culture is steeped in mom blame, and the responsibility that suggests is rarely honoured to the same extent. 

I think doing the inner work can help change the culture.

[Clarita]

My mom pushed me to be a career woman. She did feel like it would be better if I had a husband but no kids. She was very disappointed in me when I when I decided to have a second kid and when I decided to be a stay at home mom. 

[marbel]

That video did not resonate with me at all. I was not raised and certainly never got the notion that I had to be "good" (how is that even defined in that clip) to have value.  

I was raised that people in general should focus outward and not inward. Sure put others, including your spouse, your kids, other people in your sphere first before yourself. That doesn't mean you have to host all the holidays or can't train for a marathon or whatever. It doesn't mean you don't have balance: after all, others should be taking care of you too. But in any case, there is nothing wrong with taking care of oneself. In fact it is considered a very good thing to take care of oneself.

As for others' perceptions... I was raised not to give a damn what other people thought. 

I mean, I thought we got past all that by 1974. (Year I graduated from high school)

[Selkie]

I have never experienced what she is talking about. I've always been on my own path and not worried about what others think I should be doing. Sure, I take care of my family, but I certainly don't have my entire identity wrapped up in it. That notion is perplexing to me.

[Arcadia]

5 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I have never experienced what she is talking about. I've always been on my own path and not worried about what others think I should be doing. Sure, I take care of my family, but I certainly don't have my entire identity wrapped up in it. That notion is perplexing to me.

My MIL went from being so-and-so’s daughter, to so-and-so’s wife/daughter-in-law/mother. She felt she didn’t have much of an identity until she was working for others (non family) outside her home. When she married in, she had to help in the family business while her husband was working a job he like elsewhere.

[Melissa Louise]

39 minutes ago, marbel said:

That video did not resonate with me at all. I was not raised and certainly never got the notion that I had to be "good" (how is that even defined in that clip) to have value.  

I was raised that people in general should focus outward and not inward. Sure put others, including your spouse, your kids, other people in your sphere first before yourself. That doesn't mean you have to host all the holidays or can't train for a marathon or whatever. It doesn't mean you don't have balance: after all, others should be taking care of you too. But in any case, there is nothing wrong with taking care of oneself. In fact it is considered a very good thing to take care of oneself.

As for others' perceptions... I was raised not to give a damn what other people thought. 

I mean, I thought we got past all that by 1974. (Year I graduated from high school)

It's temperament + family of origin stuff, I think. 

Cognitively, I've been 'past all that' for a long time. Feminist etc. But it's a lot harder to reshape those core beliefs about oneself from the inside out. 

Knowing that I ought to be better at balance, self care, not minding what others think - without me transforming the core belief - 'I'm bad' - was just another stick to beat myself with.

Now not only was I failing to be a good mom, a good daughter, a good wife, a good artist...I was also failing to be good at liberating myself from expectations around goodness. 

It's great that the video doesn't resonate for people who haven't struggled with this. Because it's not a pleasant thing to struggle with. 

 

[MercyA]

Random thoughts:

My mom always gave and gave and gave, and still does, but I never, ever felt that she was motivated by others' perceptions of her. She was and is motivated by love. She always says, "All you have to do for your kids is love them." 

I am naturally a more selfish person, I think, and not as maternal. I think some of that is genetic. Or at least that's what I tell myself. 😉 

I was raised to not care too much what others think, as long as you are doing what you know to be right.

I believe there is inherent value in giving and serving as we are able, but that also that our value as a person isn't dependent on *doing*. An infant or a disabled person is just as valuable as a busy mom and vice versa. 

Hugs to all. ❤️

[mom31257]

I don't think I was ever intentionally taught that exact idea, but what I got out of growing up is to be good is to love. 

Growing up in my family was far from perfect. My parents fought a lot at times, but they always made up. I knew they loved each other and my sisters and me. And that love extended beyond our family. I remember them taking groceries to families in need, giving to others, and doing things in the community. 

I do a lot for the people in my life and less for myself and have for a lot of years, but I like it that way. I love and care deeply for all of them, and I want to do what I can while I can.  We moved this summer where I am now the middle house of me and my sisters and dad. I have become the host home for family gatherings. I am the one of my sisters who likes to cook the most, so I am glad to do it and prepare most of the meals. 

Is my worth in it? Maybe. But who cares if I like it that way? I don't like the idea that to empower women means we all have to think the same way or have the same priorities. Sometimes I feel that is the goal of these people who want to be influencers and ask these big questions in public spaces as this lady did in the video.  If something is a problem for others, I hope they can find a way to a better life. But if someone is happy the way they are, then good for them. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by mom31257

[JustEm]

I don't relate to that video at all. I was not raised that my worth is tied to motherhood and being a good wife. I didn't get that message from my parents or the other adults around me. 

I am a wonderful mother and an amazing wife mostly because I do put others first. But I don't do that out of some idea that it says anything about me. I do it because I love my family. It also doesn't mean I don't take care of my self or feel any shame in taking care of myself. And for me it is easy to put others first because dh puts me first.

I think therapy to help refine your value as a person is a good start for anyone struggling with feelings like their value is simply tied to motherhood an marriage. Hugs

Edited January 20, 2022 by hjffkj

[Murphy101]

Personally I have never gotten the impression that anyone sees much worth to motherhood in general in the states.  We have some of the worst maternity policies of modern nations and there’s very little social incentive to motherhood  or marriage for most of us.      I’m still mostly happy with both but there’s a difference between wife/mother/Catholic being the center of who I am and it being all I am, neither of which determines my worth.

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Random thoughts:

My mom always gave and gave and gave, and still does, but I never, ever felt that she was motivated by others' perceptions of her. She was and is motivated by love. She always says, "All you have to do for your kids is love them." 

I am naturally a more selfish person, I think, and not as maternal. I think some of that is genetic. Or at least that's what I tell myself. 😉 

I was raised to not care too much what others think, as long as you are doing what you know to be right.

I believe there is inherent value in giving and serving as we are able, but that also that our value as a person isn't dependent on *doing*. An infant or a disabled person is just as valuable as a busy mom and vice versa. 

Hugs to all. ❤️

Mercy, I think our moms are twins.

[Frances]

I have no idea who she is, but I could not relate to her video at all. And at least to me, she seems to spend at least some time on herself. You don’t have make-up, hair, and nails like that if you are only devoted to others and don’t do things for yourself.

[TravelingChris]

4 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I don't think you have to have insta to watch this. 

Just putting it right here to hopefully start a convo. How do we keep from feeling like our whole worth is in this?  Thoughts, ideas?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CYpEFasldCm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

ETA: for me personally, I give and I give and I give on all sides and tbh I'm about spent. Not only to my own family but to so many others. My own mom (love her to pieces) is 61 and she's never been the maternal/caretaker type. I've been the one to take care of everyone in my extended family for years.  Even when I was full of little ones, I had to host all the holidays and cook all the food and serve everyone (parents, siblings, etc) or it wouldn't get done. I wonder how much of it I pick up and carry because my worth is far too tied to it?  Just some rambling thoughts really. 

I wasn't raised like that.  And my dh and I had a very equal relationship until it started changing about 5 or 6 years ago (not quite sure of the date).  He has had to take over a lot of tasks that I used to do because of my increasing disabilities.  He cooks the majority of dinners now-  we used to be much more equal though not always because in different jobs in the Air Force, he had different travel schedules and usually worked at least 50 if not 60 or more hours per week.  Since he retired from the military, he can only work a maximum of 40 hours a week.

I did take care of all medical issues for the kids, my dh and I and still do for just the two of us now.  I also deal with all bureaucratic garbage from Amazon returns to broken products to insurance issues, bank issues, billing issues, etc, etc.  While I haven't been doing the taxes now for about 6 or 7 years since we now use an accountant, I still take care of all the expense listings that we need to do as we don't use the standard deduction.  I am also the primary people dealing with charities too.  And further more, I am still the main travel planner and often the event planner too.  But dh does the Christmas decorating and undecorating mostly by himself.  

[TravelingChris]

3 hours ago, Selkie said:

I have never experienced what she is talking about. I've always been on my own path and not worried about what others think I should be doing. Sure, I take care of my family, but I certainly don't have my entire identity wrapped up in it. That notion is perplexing to me.

Yes, exactly.  Part of whom I am is a researcher--- that has nothing to do with my children or my family--- I tend to research things and have always.  Or my gardening knowledge or my knowledge of criminal behavior (My graduate work was in criminal justice but I focused on criminology and victimology), etc ,etc ,etc

[Melissa Louise]

39 minutes ago, Frances said:

I have no idea who she is, but I could not relate to her video at all. And at least to me, she seems to spend at least some time on herself. You don’t have make-up, hair, and nails like that if you are only devoted to others and don’t do things for yourself.

Yeah, but doing them can be motivated by a desire to care for oneself a certain way, or it can be motivated by the deep-seated idea  that you're not a ' good' woman without it.

That might be very alien to those more evolved among us!

But it's not difficult to understand how someone might come to struggle with ideas around 'good'. 

[1234]

She resonated with me because that is how my mom was raised, so it’s how she made me feel. One small thing my Dh has always done is not let me serve him around my mom. My mom always served people food and such and she would always talk to me in a way that I was supposed to serve Dh when she was around. Like, we’re all eating lunch but Dh is done and would like dessert so I’m supposed to stop eating and get it for him (even when I was tending to babies). Dh would always make sure I didn’t get him anything around my mom and he got what he needed himself. Part of my family rift right now is me not just letting stuff go because “family” and “how that looks”. It’s difficult. I’m really proud of myself that I somehow still raised two dc who don’t care what others think. I still care way too much but am getting better. I’m probably not explaining myself well because this hits close to home, but I get it. Dh tries so hard to help me see it’s ok not to put everyone else first and be that person and I’m slowly getting it.

 

[Frances]

15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yeah, but doing them can be motivated by a desire to care for oneself a certain way, or it can be motivated by the deep-seated idea  that you're not a ' good' woman without it.

That might be very alien to those more evolved among us!

But it's not difficult to understand how someone might come to struggle with ideas around 'good'. 

I mean I know I’m not a good looking woman and might look better if I did some of the things she does around her appearance. But I honestly can’t relate to caring about or even thinking about what it means to be a “good” woman. I don’t know that’s it necessarily because I’m evolved, I certainly don’t view myself that way. I just literally could not relate to the video at all. Nothing remotely resonated with me.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I have no idea who she is, but I could not relate to her video at all. And at least to me, she seems to spend at least some time on herself. You don’t have make-up, hair, and nails like that if you are only devoted to others and don’t do things for yourself.

Her name is Rachel Hollis and she's a total grifter. She married a high level executive at Disney and built a self-help empire based on books and seminars and retreats full of advice about motherhood and marriage and empowerment of "ordinary women," while running her empire with a maid, a nanny, and a large staff to do her bidding. And then after blogging and podcasting and holding expensive "marriage retreats" to help people have perfect marriages like hers, she and her husband suddenly divorced. There have also been multiple accusations that large parts of her books were plagiarized, and when she posted a quote from Maya Angelou without attribution, as if it was her own, she blamed her staff when she was called out.

It all imploded last year when someone commented on one of her social media accounts that when she says she has a maid come in twice a week “to clean my toilets” it makes her seem “unrelatable," she went on a really bitchy, snarky TikTok rant saying why in the world would anyone think she wants to be relatable, everything she does is designed to ensure she lives a life that is not relatable to ordinary shmoes, and she listed other examples of “unrelatable” women — including people like Marie Curie, Malala Yousafzai, and Harriet Tubman. As if selling cheesy self-help books is totally in the same league as risking your life to help escaped slaves, being shot by the Taliban, or winning a Nobel Prize. It did not go well, lol. Her first shot at an apology also did not go well, and then she blamed her staff for mishandling things and issued a brief sorry-I-need-to-take-time-to-reflect type apology, laid low for a while, and now appears to be trying to resurrect her empire. She's a total narcissist and has never in her life "put other people first."

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Corraleno
typos

[KSera]

9 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Her name is Rachel Hollis and she's a total grifter. She married a high level executive at Disney and built a self-help empire based on books and seminars and retreats full of advice about motherhood and marriage and empowerment of "ordinary women," while running her empire with a maid, a nanny, and a large staff to do her bidding. And then after blogging and podcasting and holding expensive "marriage retreats" to help people have perfect marriages like hers, she and her husband suddenly divorced. There have also been multiple accusations that large parts of her books were plagiarized, and when she posted a quote from Maya Angelou without attribution, as if it was her own, she blamed her staff when she was called out.

It all imploded last year when someone commented on one of her social media accounts that when she says she has a maid come in twice a week “to clean my toilets” it makes her seem “unrelatable," she went on a really bitchy, snarky TikTok rant saying why in the world would anyone think she wants to be relatable, everything she does is designed to ensure she lives a life that is not relatable to ordinary shmoes, and she listed other examples of “unrelatable” women — including people like Marie Curie, Malala Yousafzai, and Harriet Tubman. As if selling cheesy self-help books is totally in the same league as risking your life to help escaped slaves, being shot by the Taliban, or winning a Nobel Prize. It did not go well, lol. Her first shot at an apology also did not go well, and then she blamed her staff for mishandling things and issued a brief sorry-I-need-to-take-time-to-reflect type apology, laid low for a while, and now appears to be trying to resurrect her empire. She's a total narcissist and has never in her life "put other people first."

 

Ohhhhh. This is the “Girl, Wash your Face” lady, right? It all sounded familiar.

[Melissa Louise]

I've never heard of Rachel Hollis.

It's honestly astounding to me that many women have experienced no internal or external pressure to be 'good'. Astounding in a positive way, of course, but wow, mind blown.

I feel like an alien. 

[Frances]

10 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I've never heard of Rachel Hollis.

It's honestly astounding to me that many women have experienced no internal or external pressure to be 'good'. Astounding in a positive way, of course, but wow, mind blown.

I feel like an alien. 

Maybe it’s just because Rachel Hollis is a complete fake that I can’t relate to the video. I’m thankful for @Corralenoposting all of the info because my feelings when I was watching the video make way more sense now. 

[Melissa Louise]

34 minutes ago, Frances said:

Maybe it’s just because Rachel Hollis is a complete fake that I can’t relate to the video. I’m thankful for @Corralenoposting all of the info because my feelings when I was watching the video make way more sense now. 

OK. 

As I said, I've no idea who she is. 

She may be a complete fake, but the statement that many women are raised to think that to be a good women means being good for other people and not for themselves is sadly, true for some. 

It's an extremely common family of origin message where a child needs to take care of a parent or family member's feelings rather than their own. 

It's very nice, I am sure, not to have been raised this way, but fako lady in the 5.5 seconds I watched hit the nail on the head for the rest of us.

Yes, some of us are raised with this message, implicitly or explicitly. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[marbel]

9 hours ago, mom31257 said:

I don't think I was ever intentionally taught that exact idea, but what I got out of growing up is to be good is to love. 

This is what I wish I'd said. 

I did not know that was Rachel Hollis. I thought I recognized the speaker but I thought Rachel Hollis had disappeared so didn't think of her.

Anyway, when we love people, we are good to them and for them, and we're happy to be that way. It doesn't mean we do whatever people want us to do, put up with BS from people, even spend time with people who drain us with their own self-centeredness. That's actually the opposite of being good, to my thinking. And taking care of ourselves is part of that package - we can't care for others if we are falling apart. We are examples to others when we do "good" things for ourselves.  And if we are living that way, it isn't going to matter what other people think.

 

[Faith-manor]

11 hours ago, Arcadia said:

My MIL went from being so-and-so’s daughter, to so-and-so’s wife/daughter-in-law/mother. She felt she didn’t have much of an identity until she was working for others (non family) outside her home. When she married in, she had to help in the family business while her husband was working a job he like elsewhere.

Very similar situation for my mother, and she has zero self esteem because of it. 

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes, exactly.  Part of whom I am is a researcher--- that has nothing to do with my children or my family--- I tend to research things and have always.  Or my gardening knowledge or my knowledge of criminal behavior (My graduate work was in criminal justice but I focused on criminology and victimology), etc ,etc ,etc

I am the researcher too. It is my natural personality. I was not raised that way. My father treated my mother as "weak minded" and dictated to her. She obeyed. While he left the bulk of the parenting to her because it was "women's work" 😠, she did not make decisions about anything very often at all. No independent thought on her part until she got to about 52, and my sister left home. Something about that made her go "boing" and tell him the way it was going to be for a change. Very odd to watch from the outside.

I don't mind being the researcher. I was the one who would have been a professional college student my entire adult life if that had come with a salary and benefits! 😂

 

[Farrar]

I refuse to believe that y'all haven't ever experienced this pressure. I see a lot of lack of self-awareness here. You think she's too worried about how she looks? Or that it's hormonal? What does that even mean? She's talking about a general societal issue. I don't think it's as straightforward as Hollis makes it out to be (and I'm not a fan - I think she does this super poorly, honestly - the interviewer being all mind blown made me roll my eyes big time) or as tied to motherhood and being a wife because I see it manifest in lots of other contexts including professional work for women, but this is a pervasive attitude where women are defined by relationships with others and by how we support the systems around us and not by how we look out for ourselves. And we're judged much more harshly for personal ambition, personal boundaries, and self-care than men. I was raised by a mother who was intentionally trying to counteract this sort of line of thinking and I definitely feel like I was ahead of a lot of peers in not internalizing this crap and yet I still absolutely feel it sometimes.

[marbel]

19 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I refuse to believe that y'all haven't ever experienced this pressure. I see a lot of lack of self-awareness here. You think she's too worried about how she looks? Or that it's hormonal? What does that even mean? She's talking about a general societal issue. I don't think it's as straightforward as Hollis makes it out to be (and I'm not a fan - I think she does this super poorly, honestly - the interviewer being all mind blown made me roll my eyes big time) or as tied to motherhood and being a wife because I see it manifest in lots of other contexts including professional work for women, but this is a pervasive attitude where women are defined by relationships with others and by how we support the systems around us and not by how we look out for ourselves. And we're judged much more harshly for personal ambition, personal boundaries, and self-care than men. I was raised by a mother who was intentionally trying to counteract this sort of line of thinking and I definitely feel like I was ahead of a lot of peers in not internalizing this crap and yet I still absolutely feel it sometimes.

Aw, come on, really?  Condescending much?  We can't know how our own lives have played out, what we were taught, what we have internalized from the culture around us? 

[BlsdMama]

14 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I don't think you have to have insta to watch this. 

Just putting it right here to hopefully start a convo. How do we keep from feeling like our whole worth is in this?  Thoughts, ideas?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CYpEFasldCm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

ETA: for me personally, I give and I give and I give on all sides and tbh I'm about spent. Not only to my own family but to so many others. My own mom (love her to pieces) is 61 and she's never been the maternal/caretaker type. I've been the one to take care of everyone in my extended family for years.  Even when I was full of little ones, I had to host all the holidays and cook all the food and serve everyone (parents, siblings, etc) or it wouldn't get done. I wonder how much of it I pick up and carry because my worth is far too tied to it?  Just some rambling thoughts really. 

This has ALWAYS been an issue. New Testament Mark and Martha in the book of Luke. 

[Sneezyone]

8 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Her name is Rachel Hollis and she's a total grifter. She married a high level executive at Disney and built a self-help empire based on books and seminars and retreats full of advice about motherhood and marriage and empowerment of "ordinary women," while running her empire with a maid, a nanny, and a large staff to do her bidding. And then after blogging and podcasting and holding expensive "marriage retreats" to help people have perfect marriages like hers, she and her husband suddenly divorced. There have also been multiple accusations that large parts of her books were plagiarized, and when she posted a quote from Maya Angelou without attribution, as if it was her own, she blamed her staff when she was called out.

It all imploded last year when someone commented on one of her social media accounts that when she says she has a maid come in twice a week “to clean my toilets” it makes her seem “unrelatable," she went on a really bitchy, snarky TikTok rant saying why in the world would anyone think she wants to be relatable, everything she does is designed to ensure she lives a life that is not relatable to ordinary shmoes, and she listed other examples of “unrelatable” women — including people like Marie Curie, Malala Yousafzai, and Harriet Tubman. As if selling cheesy self-help books is totally in the same league as risking your life to help escaped slaves, being shot by the Taliban, or winning a Nobel Prize. It did not go well, lol. Her first shot at an apology also did not go well, and then she blamed her staff for mishandling things and issued a brief sorry-I-need-to-take-time-to-reflect type apology, laid low for a while, and now appears to be trying to resurrect her empire. She's a total narcissist and has never in her life "put other people first."

 

Tell us what you really think! 🤣

My experience with 'goodness', showy 'acts of love', is that was as a tool of abusive, narcissistic women and a means to guarantee silence from victims. I jettisoned the need/quest for 'goodness' right along with the tolerance of abusive behavior from those family members.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Sneezyone

[marbel]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Tell us what you really think! 🤣

I can't wait till Quill drops in. I remember her having some pretty strong feelings on Rachel Hollis's book...

[mom31257]

47 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

This has ALWAYS been an issue. New Testament Mark and Martha in the book of Luke. 

See what I think the issue is there and in most women is comparison. Do what makes you happy but don't be judgmental if others don't have the same priorities. Even in the church, I see people who look down on others if a particular ministry isn't as important to others as it is to them. For example, don't you care about the homeless? Well it's not that I don't care, but I feel my talents are better serving different needs. 

[Scarlett]

I feel pretty much the way @Murphy101 does.  Just because I love and prefer to take care of my home and family doesn't mean my self worth is tied up in that or that I care what others think.  

My self esteem has always been adequate if not better than that.  It is a good thing too or I would have never survived  those 26 years with XH.

[wintermom]

My mom was a great role model. Her father died young, and her mother had to take over running the farm and looking after the family. Her mom and dad were both recent immigrants from Sweden and Norway respectively and had no family in Canada. My mom taught me to grow up strong and independent, and encouraged me to develop the skills to take care of yourself and family. This was not encouraged to be a "good girl" or "good wife," rather to be able to live a "good life." 

My dad grew up on a small farm and his parents were also recent immigrants. His mom lost her father early in life and had to take on a lot of the farming duties. My dad sacrificed a lot to help out this parents and siblings. 

Both my parents worked very hard to provide for their family. They both gave and gave and gave. Their sense of duty and responsibility to family, parents and siblings was very strong.

I guess I don't see giving and sacrificing for others as gender-dependent. My dh and I have made a lot of sacrifices for our kids. 

[Arcadia]

12 hours ago, Joker2 said:

She resonated with me because that is how my mom was raised, so it’s how she made me feel. One small thing my Dh has always done is not let me serve him around my mom. My mom always served people food and such and she would always talk to me in a way that I was supposed to serve Dh when she was around. Like, we’re all eating lunch but Dh is done and would like dessert so I’m supposed to stop eating and get it for him (even when I was tending to babies).

That is so patriarchal treating males like emperors to be waited upon. My MIL would cook only what FIL like to eat. 
 

11 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I've never heard of Rachel Hollis.

It's honestly astounding to me that many women have experienced no internal or external pressure to be 'good'. Astounding in a positive way, of course, but wow, mind blown.

I feel like an alien. 

Chinese has the dowry system. The groom’s family “pays” for the bride. Now China has a shortage of females so less pressure on females to be “perfect”.

12 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yeah, but doing them can be motivated by a desire to care for oneself a certain way, or it can be motivated by the deep-seated idea  that you're not a ' good' woman without it.

That might be very alien to those more evolved among us!

But it's not difficult to understand how someone might come to struggle with ideas around 'good'. 

Concubines in the imperial harem had to doll out to the emperors liking. My mil would comment that she has to put lipstick on when going out because she thinks society would look down on her otherwise. 

[JustEm]

11 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I've never heard of Rachel Hollis.

It's honestly astounding to me that many women have experienced no internal or external pressure to be 'good'. Astounding in a positive way, of course, but wow, mind blown.

I feel like an alien. 

While I personally have never experienced this, or at least didn't internalize it so can't remember, there are many women in my life who have felt it so I know it is a real greater societal issue. My mother for example, has talked about how she is so thankful that her daughters all decided to stay home with their children because she felt extreme pressure to always be working full-time even though she would have rather stayed home. The pressure wasn't from my dad. It was from society and the environment of living in a college town. She felt like she'd be viewed as lesser if she was simply a housewife. And then as her daughters have decided to go back to work in varying degrees she's expressed joy that they are doing it because they want to not because it is expected of them.

When she says things like that I just can't wrap my brain around it on a personal level because no one has ever treated me as just a mom or just a wife. It does make me wonder how my female peers in my not online life feel.

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

I refuse to believe that y'all haven't ever experienced this pressure. I see a lot of lack of self-awareness here. You think she's too worried about how she looks? Or that it's hormonal? What does that even mean? She's talking about a general societal issue. I don't think it's as straightforward as Hollis makes it out to be (and I'm not a fan - I think she does this super poorly, honestly - the interviewer being all mind blown made me roll my eyes big time) or as tied to motherhood and being a wife because I see it manifest in lots of other contexts including professional work for women, but this is a pervasive attitude where women are defined by relationships with others and by how we support the systems around us and not by how we look out for ourselves. And we're judged much more harshly for personal ambition, personal boundaries, and self-care than men. I was raised by a mother who was intentionally trying to counteract this sort of line of thinking and I definitely feel like I was ahead of a lot of peers in not internalizing this crap and yet I still absolutely feel it sometimes.

It's possible to recognize that these systemic issues (bolded) exist without internalizing those things and believing them about ourselves. I spent a decade in college and grad school, published academic papers, won national awards, and had a career before I ever got married and had kids. It never occurred to me that my worth as a human being was based on my performance as a wife and mother. Of course I want to be the best mother I can be, but that's because I love my kids more than anything in the world, not because I thought others would judge my worth based on how much I sacrificed for them. And I've never had a problem with stating upfront what I want, or taking the time I need for myself. I understand that other women may have a harder time with that, but the OP seemed to be asking about personal experience, and for some of us that has just not been our experience. It's pretty patronizing to suggest that since you've experienced it, everyone else must have experienced it and we just lack self-awareness.

The really ironic thing about Hollis's whole schtick is that she basically ignores the systemic issues that make life harder for women and focuses totally on personal responsibility. It's prosperity gospel BS tweaked specifically to appeal to middle-class, white, mostly Christian women who feel unhappy and unfulfilled, and she tells them that it's totally in their power to change that. Of course the flip side is that if you're not happy, then it's your own fault because you're obviously not willing to work hard enough to "manifest" the changes you want to see. She takes women who are worried that they're "not good enough" as wives and mothers and makes them feel even more inadequate if they can't also be happy, self-fulfilled marathon runners or business owners or novelists or whatever they want to be, because anyone can have it all, just like her, if they work as hard as she does. She presents her own life as a rag-to-riches story that anyone can replicate if they just work hard enough, while ignoring the fact that she was a 19 yr old intern at Miramax when she hooked up with a Disney exec, and the reason she was able to quit her job and start on the path to personal self-fulfillment was because she had a husband with a six-figure income that allowed her to pay someone else to "clean her toilets." 

[Lady Florida.]

18 hours ago, marbel said:

That video did not resonate with me at all. I was not raised and certainly never got the notion that I had to be "good" (how is that even defined in that clip) to have value.  

I was raised that people in general should focus outward and not inward. Sure put others, including your spouse, your kids, other people in your sphere first before yourself. That doesn't mean you have to host all the holidays or can't train for a marathon or whatever. It doesn't mean you don't have balance: after all, others should be taking care of you too. But in any case, there is nothing wrong with taking care of oneself. In fact it is considered a very good thing to take care of oneself.

As for others' perceptions... I was raised not to give a damn what other people thought. 

I mean, I thought we got past all that by 1974. (Year I graduated from high school)

It didn't resonate with me either for similar reasons. I wasn't raised that way, maybe because I had a mostly single mom (as in she was single for a good part of my childhood) back when single parents were pariahs. She taught me to always take care of myself. She taught me to value myself for who I was. She did not learn that easily for herself. My grandfather was abusive to her and her sisters as well as to my grandmother. It affected her relationship with men though I don't think she ever understood that. 

However, to the bolded not so much. I graduated the year before you. In 1972-73 my mother could not buy life insurance, could not get a check cashing card, and could not get a car loan. Life insurance salesmen - and they were all men - didn't think a woman needed or should have life insurance. One actually sat at our kitchen table and told her if she wanted life insurance she should get a husband. She promptly kicked him our of our house. Check cashing cards, for those here too young to know, were very important. It meant you could pay for groceries with a check instead of cash and the store knew your check was good. And as for a car loan, although she was financially capable of making payments as any credit check would have shown, she had to get my grandfather to cosign the loan for her. Mind you, he was retired, on a fixed income, and never had a credit card in his life because he paid cash for everything (even his house). He had a body part she lacked.

14 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Her name is Rachel Hollis and she's a total grifter.

 

I didn't know that was her, having never seen what she looks like. It makes sense now.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Lady Florida.

[TravelingChris]

6 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I am the researcher too. It is my natural personality. I was not raised that way. My father treated my mother as "weak minded" and dictated to her. She obeyed. While he left the bulk of the parenting to her because it was "women's work" 😠, she did not make decisions about anything very often at all. No independent thought on her part until she got to about 52, and my sister left home. Something about that made her go "boing" and tell him the way it was going to be for a change. Very odd to watch from the outside.

I don't mind being the researcher. I was the one who would have been a professional college student my entire adult life if that had come with a salary and benefits! 😂

 

Two interesting things about my family-  My mother, who was in her let 20s or early 30s when she married my father didn't know how to cook anything. Fortunately, my father was 8 years older, grew up in a middle class home and had lived away from home already before WW2. She had never learned because she lived until she was 17 and a bit in a rich landowning family in what was then Poland but now is Ukraine.  They had cooks, governesess, etc.  She never saw her mother unless she was sick or on special occasions- not sure if she got to move to the Adult dinners right before WW2 started.  Anyway, one of her younger sisters was interested in learning how to cook and tried to enter the kitchen building and my mom witnessed her being chased out by the chef who had a big knife.  Then she was in gulag, Armed forces, living with a rich benafactoress in Rome, going to university in Switzerland- and am not sure what her living arangements were there or what she was eating, then au pair in France- which meant they probably also had someone else cooking, and I think she may have had some tutoring arrangement in London= again maybe at one house so no cooking.  Which meant that she never thought cooking was a female only job at all.  And both my parents were really into educating us and definitely not as homemakers but rather as well rounded learned individuals.  My dad, who was generally a very quite person, would be educating us about various areas while on vacation= like I learned a lot about the Blue Ridge mountains from my father. My mother was not as convential either. The goal for both of them for all of us was to get a good college degree at least and to become useful but helpful and curious members of society.  

The other strange story is that same sister who wanted to learn to cook and the chef chased married a man who spent his life getting PhDs.  This was because Poland was then a communist country and they did not want him to work =a) because of his anti-communist views and b) because my aunt was legally blind, and my mother claimed she was bipolar too- I met her and she seemed normal to me- but of course, she didn't have to be on a very manic or very depressed state either.  She actually made me think she was ADHD, like I am.  But my uncle did get to study all his life.

 

[Idalou]

6 hours ago, Farrar said:

I refuse to believe that y'all haven't ever experienced this pressure. I see a lot of lack of self-awareness here. You think she's too worried about how she looks? Or that it's hormonal? What does that even mean? She's talking about a general societal issue. I don't think it's as straightforward as Hollis makes it out to be (and I'm not a fan - I think she does this super poorly, honestly - the interviewer being all mind blown made me roll my eyes big time) or as tied to motherhood and being a wife because I see it manifest in lots of other contexts including professional work for women, but this is a pervasive attitude where women are defined by relationships with others and by how we support the systems around us and not by how we look out for ourselves. And we're judged much more harshly for personal ambition, personal boundaries, and self-care than men. I was raised by a mother who was intentionally trying to counteract this sort of line of thinking and I definitely feel like I was ahead of a lot of peers in not internalizing this crap and yet I still absolutely feel it sometimes.

You can refuse to believe whoever or whatever you want. But it's telling that you then say it shows a lack of self awareness. All those who said it did not resonate with them did not say that it wasn't a societal issue. You are putting words in their mouths. No one is denying your grievances.  Hypocrites are in their heyday, and should be called out at the same time the topics they are grifting on are discussed.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Idalou

[Lady Florida.]

2 hours ago, hjffkj said:

While I personally have never experienced this, or at least didn't internalize it so can't remember, there are many women in my life who have felt it so I know it is a real greater societal issue.

 

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

It's possible to recognize that these systemic issues (bolded) exist without internalizing those things and believing them about ourselves.

Exactly. I know the issues exist for many women but I also know they don't exist for me personally. I married late in life and was happy with a career and close friends. If I met someone I wanted to marry I would, if not I'd be fine. When we met he was raising his teenage son. We tried to conceive and gave up. I was okay with that too, though I was of course happy when I found out I was pregnant with ds. 

[Melissa Louise]

For those of you who don't experience the issue but acknowledge it as a social issue - do you truly see it as a social issue?

Because the disbelief and disdain for those who experience it is coming through pretty strong...there's a very strong vibe of this being an individual issue - some grift, some fakery, some weakness.

 

 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

It's possible to recognize that these systemic issues (bolded) exist without internalizing those things and believing them about ourselves. I spent a decade in college and grad school, published academic papers, won national awards, and had a career before I ever got married and had kids. It never occurred to me that my worth as a human being was based on my performance as a wife and mother. Of course I want to be the best mother I can be, but that's because I love my kids more than anything in the world, not because I thought others would judge my worth based on how much I sacrificed for them. And I've never had a problem with stating upfront what I want, or taking the time I need for myself. I understand that other women may have a harder time with that, but the OP seemed to be asking about personal experience, and for some of us that has just not been our experience. It's pretty patronizing to suggest that since you've experienced it, everyone else must have experienced it and we just lack self-awareness.

This part. I distinctly remember the criticism I got here when I said that I left my (then) 2yo in her father's care to jet off to Puerto Rico with my college friends, lol. Nevermind that he had left *us* numerous times, for months on end, for work. I didn't feel any guilt about that and still don't, although DH still feels some things, lol. I remember getting into serious arguments with some of my (still) best friends about NOT sacrificing myself on the altar of motherhood and marriage in our college days. It was a controversial opinion even in 1997 so I know others have different feelings. I just haven't ever shared it. I do what I do now for DH and our kids **and** for me, because it makes me happy, not b/c I expect them to ever appreciate or value all that I've done (at least not until they are parents themselves), but b/c *I* know it has worth/value.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

I hope ppl realize that having these feelings is not the same as endorsing these feelings. 

[Scarlett]

21 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

For those of you who don't experience the issue but acknowledge it as a social issue - do you truly see it as a social issue?

Because the disbelief and disdain for those who experience it is coming through pretty strong...there's a very strong vibe of this being an individual issue - some grift, some fakery, some weakness.

 

 

That isn't what I was meaning at all.  I certainly see it as a societal issue....especially in certain fundamental circles.  I wouldn't call it a weakness but it is an internal dialogue that should be changed if possible.