Foreign Languages and Florida Universities

[ByGrace3]

I am wondering if someone can help me understand this a little. I have been told that Florida universities will only accept foreign language from an accredited source like FLVS. You can still get accepted to the university but all Florida universities require a foreign language component that if you took it in high school you do not have to take in in college, but homeschoolers not through FLVS have to meet the requirements in college even if taken in high school. 

 

This is really frustrating to me, My dd took Spanish 1-3 with me and my ds is taking Spanish 1 with me this year. I have taught high school Spanish in private schools but am being told because I am not a certified teacher it won't count? 

This also causes a problem because I teach a Spanish 1 class and while I am not currently charging for the class (ds' friends) I have been asked by others to start classes again for Spanish 1 and 2. I feel badly charging families to teach their children when the college won't "accept it."

Anything I can do here? Suggestions? I hate to tell people to use FLVS because the students won't learn anything from it, whereas I know they would get more our of my classes....

and from what I can understand, this is a Florida only thing.

[HomeAgain]

Can students take the CLEP for Spanish 1 and/or 2?

[ByGrace3]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

Can students take the CLEP for Spanish 1 and/or 2?

yes, however, I had a student take it last year and it was all listening, and they speak very quickly...which is very difficult for most students...

[jplain]

25 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

yes, however, I had a student take it last year and it was all listening, and they speak very quickly...which is very difficult for most students...

Part of it may be quick speaking and less than ideal audio, and part of it may be the student not knowing exactly what to expect.  The official practice test is not a good reflection of the real test. The actual test moves you along quickly and does not allow replaying the audio, so students have to be prepared to take notes that will help with the questions that follow the audio. It isn’t all audio though, there are reading selections and multiple choice questions not linked to the audio.

My older one took Spanish 1-3 from Dale Gamache, followed by Spanish 4 with Ray Leven.  Then she spent a few weeks preparing for the non-writing Spanish CLEP test using a very helpful blog and other resources.  She earned a Modern States voucher to cover the cost.  She had no problem with the test, and easily earned a Level 2 score.  My younger one will be taking it this month via remote proctoring, also using a voucher earned from Modern States.  (We were pleasantly surprised that at the moment Modern States is covering not just the test fee, but also the remote-proctoring fee.)

In case you have other students that might wish to attempt the Spanish CLEP, feel free to message me with your email address and I can send you the tips and info my daughter compiled for Gamache’s Spanish 3 students.

Edited January 12, 2022 by jplain

[purpleowl]

Do you have a link to this requirement/policy? I looked at the websites of FSU and UF and I'm not seeing what you describe, just that students who've studied a language in high school can take a placement test, or can earn credit via AP/IB/AICE/CLEP. The only thing I see specific to homeschoolers is regarding admissions. But I definitely want to make sure that my homeschooled Florida kids are doing what they need to do as we approach high school!

[ByGrace3]

On 1/12/2022 at 10:32 AM, jplain said:

Part of it may be quick speaking and less than ideal audio, and part of it may be the student not knowing exactly what to expect.  The official practice test is not a good reflection of the real test. The actual test moves you along quickly and does not allow replaying the audio, so students have to be prepared to take notes that will help with the questions that follow the audio. It isn’t all audio though, there are reading selections and multiple choice questions not linked to the audio.

My older one took Spanish 1-3 from Dale Gamache, followed by Spanish 4 with Ray Leven.  Then she spent a few weeks preparing for the non-writing Spanish CLEP test using a very helpful blog and other resources.  She earned a Modern States voucher to cover the cost.  She had no problem with the test, and easily earned a Level 2 score.  My younger one will be taking it this month via remote proctoring, also using a voucher earned from Modern States.  (We were pleasantly surprised that at the moment Modern States is covering not just the test fee, but also the remote-proctoring fee.)

In case you have other students that might wish to attempt the Spanish CLEP, feel free to message me with your email address and I can send you the tips and info my daughter compiled for Gamache’s Spanish 3 students.

Unfortunately it does seem that you have to have at least 3-4 years of high school Spanish to pass the CLEP for 2 levels (which is what is required). Most high schoolers will only take 2 years. 

[purpleowl]

@ByGrace3 Where can I find this requirement?

[Melissa B]

49 minutes ago, purpleowl said:

@ByGrace3 Where can I find this requirement?

It is just a requirement to graduate from a public college or university in Florida. It applies to everyone. However, the state of Florida does not recognize homeschool grades in any form. The only acceptable grades for homeschoolers come from either testing (CLEP, AP, IB, Cambridge) or from the state run virtual school - FLVS. So students in school have the option of submitting high school foreign language class grades to meet this college graduation requirement, but as the state does not recognize homeschool grades, homeschoolers will have to take two foreign language classes in college if they have not earned them through FLVS, dual enrollment or testing while in high school.

[purpleowl]

1 hour ago, Melissa B said:

It is just a requirement to graduate from a public college or university in Florida. It applies to everyone. However, the state of Florida does not recognize homeschool grades in any form. The only acceptable grades for homeschoolers come from either testing (CLEP, AP, IB, Cambridge) or from the state run virtual school - FLVS. So students in school have the option of submitting high school foreign language class grades to meet this college graduation requirement, but as the state does not recognize homeschool grades, homeschoolers will have to take two foreign language classes in college if they have not earned them through FLVS, dual enrollment or testing while in high school.

I understand the description of what the requirement is. I was wondering where I could find it.

It looks like maybe a combination of Florida Statutes 1007.262 (https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2020/1007.262) and Florida Administrative Code Rule 6A-10.02412 (https://www.flrules.org/gateway/ruleNo.asp?id=6A-10.02412)? But I still don't see anything that keeps schools from accepting foreign language credits from a homeschool transcript. Does anyone know where I can find that?

I am not trying to say this doesn't actually happen. I just like to know the exact wording of requirements. (Also, I think it should be changed, and it would be nice to know WHAT needs changing.)

[BookwormTo2]

On 1/12/2022 at 8:54 AM, ByGrace3 said:

I am wondering if someone can help me understand this a little. I have been told that Florida universities will only accept foreign language from an accredited source like FLVS. You can still get accepted to the university but all Florida universities require a foreign language component that if you took it in high school you do not have to take in in college, but homeschoolers not through FLVS have to meet the requirements in college even if taken in high school. 

 

This is really frustrating to me, My dd took Spanish 1-3 with me and my ds is taking Spanish 1 with me this year. I have taught high school Spanish in private schools but am being told because I am not a certified teacher it won't count? 

This also causes a problem because I teach a Spanish 1 class and while I am not currently charging for the class (ds' friends) I have been asked by others to start classes again for Spanish 1 and 2. I feel badly charging families to teach their children when the college won't "accept it."

Anything I can do here? Suggestions? I hate to tell people to use FLVS because the students won't learn anything from it, whereas I know they would get more our of my classes....

and from what I can understand, this is a Florida only thing.

This is actually two different things for some Florida public universities.

1. For instance, in order to be considered for admission to UNF, the applicant does not need a regionally accredited provider for two years minimum of foreign language taken in high school (note: I am basing my information on conversations and email communications with various admission offices when my oldest applied to colleges for Fall 2020). The state flagship is a bit harder to figure out; they used to spell out on their site that one needed to have the foreign language from a regionally accredited provider or proof of proficiency to be considered for admission, now things are more murky.

2. In order to graduate from a public university in Florida, as Melissa B notes, one must complete two years of a foreign language. Most fulfill this requirement in high school, as they attend either a public or private regionally accredited school. However, homeschoolers have the extra burden of either showing foreign language proficiency via CLEP, AP, dual enrollment, IB, AICE, or FLATS exam, or taking 2 sequential years of a foreign language with a regionally accredited provider. * Other than FLVS, which is regionally accredited like a public school, I believe Wilson Hill Academy, Kolbe Online Academy, and TPS are regionally accredited and allow families to enroll a la carte and get an official transcript sent to a university. 

See the Florida Board of Governors PDF pages 2-3: https://www.flbog.edu/wp-content/uploads/6_002FINAL_FTIC_03252020.pdf and the different standard for homeschoolers is more clear.

[Farrar]

It's been basically stated, but just to put it super clearly - I think college admission requirements and college graduation requirements are being conflated here. 

[ByGrace3]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:03 PM, Farrar said:

It's been basically stated, but just to put it super clearly - I think college admission requirements and college graduation requirements are being conflated here. 

I did differentiate these ideas in my OP. I am aware that acceptance is not the issue, it is fulfilling the 2 year requirement for Florida college graduation that accredited schools and FLVS get for their high school courses. I spoke with Senor Gamache (La Clase Divertida) this summer at a convention and he mentioned that his students did not have any trouble satisfying the requirements with his classes...I am just curious how does that happen? Is that specific to him? all online classes? If so, it doesn't seem fair. I understand that someone taking Spanish on their own without a teacher who knows the language would not be the same as taking it with someone who does, but what about the students like mine that are taking it with  mom who could be that online teacher (and has been in the passed). It just is a very tricky situation. I have friends asking me to teach their child and I am happy to do so as I know the experience I offer is much better than FLVS, but then they pay all this money to have their child take Spanish and the kids actually learn unlike in FLVS, but it doesn't "count" to fulfill that college requirement. Unless they pass the CLEP, which I have stated that kids really need 3 years of Spanish to pass the CLEP for 2 years. I just wish there was a reasonable way around this. 

[Farrar]

Hmm. At many universities I'm familiar with, you can potentially exempt a foreign language requirement by exam through the school itself once you're there. I've never heard of a college allowing a student to exempt students based on high school credits without something else - dual enrollment, AP, CLEP, an exam there, a waiver because of a learning disability, etc. But Florida's system is weird in a number of ways that I can think of right off the bat, so maybe Florida publics actually do this.

Adding... Here's UF's liberal arts and sciences requirement and it's exactly what I envisioned - college coursework, an exam, or demonstrating proficiency through a test once you're at the college. Nowhere does it say that they will count high school credits - they're only mentioned for placement. So they're not giving credit for the high school coursework, but the high school coursework can potentially exempt you. My guess is that other Florida publics will be similar. Everyone is linking the Florida state statutes on this topic (and maybe I'm totally wrong and the answer can be found there) but my impulse would be to go to the actual universities and see what their requirements say.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Farrar

[ByGrace3]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Hmm. At many universities I'm familiar with, you can potentially exempt a foreign language requirement by exam through the school itself once you're there. I've never heard of a college allowing a student to exempt students based on high school credits without something else - dual enrollment, AP, CLEP, an exam there, a waiver because of a learning disability, etc. But Florida's system is weird in a number of ways that I can think of right off the bat, so maybe Florida publics actually do this.

It is bizarre and Florida schools are the only schools I know of that do this. 2 years of foreign language are required for EVERY Florida college graduate (public universities) however, accredited high school 2 years can meet the requirement. It is not a major/minor requirement, it is a state thing. Bizarre. 

[Farrar]

Just now, ByGrace3 said:

It is bizarre and Florida schools are the only schools I know of that do this. 2 years of foreign language are required for EVERY Florida college graduate (public universities) however, accredited high school 2 years can meet the requirement. It is not a major/minor requirement, it is a state thing. Bizarre. 

Florida also thinks that your high school transcript should be a small book that details every you ever got your name on the board in elementary school. Florida be weird for sure.

[ByGrace3]

17 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Florida also thinks that your high school transcript should be a small book that details every you ever got your name on the board in elementary school. Florida be weird for sure.

Oh dear, care to expound? We are just getting into this stage with my oldest. The first hiccup was standing at the registrar's desk where he insisted I needed to request an "official transcript" from the school. I explained she was homeschooled and this was the official transcript. He then said, "no, maybe you can request from your homeschool association or organization an official transcript."  umm this doesn't exist. Ugh. He finally took m y word for it but a less confident homeschool mom would have probably left in tears and signed her younger children up for an umbrella school. 

ETA: this was for DE and they did accept it...he was just clueless. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by ByGrace3

[jplain]

Note that Gamache is a retired FL public high school teacher.  He may very well know the right things to say/do to help his students with UF requirements.  I do know that his students typically do NOT earn a Level 2 score on the Spanish CLEP.  I haven’t spoken with him in a long time, but as of 2020 none of his immediately post-Spanish 3 students had ever earned a Level 2 score, although a couple had come close.

In your shoes I might reach out and ask if he’d be willing to give you any advice about helping your students satisfy the UF language requirement.  IIRC, he has both email and phone contact info on his website, but it might take a bit of patience to get in touch with him. 😉

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, ByGrace3 said:

Oh dear, care to expound? We are just getting into this stage with my oldest. The first hiccup was standing at the registrar's desk where he insisted I needed to request an "official transcript" from the school. I explained she was homeschooled and this was the official transcript. He then said, "no, maybe you can request from your homeschool association or organization an official transcript."  umm this doesn't exist. Ugh. He finally took m y word for it but a less confident homeschool mom would have probably left in tears and signed her younger children up for an umbrella school. 

ETA: this was for DE and they did accept it...he was just clueless. 

Florida transcripts from public schools tend to be really weird and I've seen admissions folks mock them mercilessly. Plus, they contain lots of test scores, which outside of Florida, schools really explicitly do not want on transcripts anymore. Trust me, they'll be happy to read a nicely streamlined from you.

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

Oh dear, care to expound? We are just getting into this stage with my oldest. The first hiccup was standing at the registrar's desk where he insisted I needed to request an "official transcript" from the school. I explained she was homeschooled and this was the official transcript. He then said, "no, maybe you can request from your homeschool association or organization an official transcript."  umm this doesn't exist. Ugh. He finally took m y word for it but a less confident homeschool mom would have probably left in tears and signed her younger children up for an umbrella school. 

ETA: this was for DE and they did accept it...he was just clueless. 

You may want to read through the general requirements of the specific schools within the FL universities you're interested in. They have very detailed explanations of what categories you must check off and what exams and specific courses from FL CCs will fulfill the requirements. I'm most familiar with UF's College of Liberal Arts and Sciences because it's dd's first choice to finish her BS online. It's particularly important that you make sure you are aware of the transfer requirements from FL CCs since that will apply to your dd. 

For the foreign language requirement, you can use a CC class to fulfill the requirement. Your dd could just sign up for one semester of Spanish IV to check the box and be done. Other alternatives are AP, CLEP, the military's foreign language proficiency test (I don't know if that's available to civilians) and a departmental test.

Another weird UF rule is that a student must spend one summer on campus. I think you can do the class online, but I'm not sure for in-person students. That might be a good time to take a language intensive to check the box.

And, just as a personal rant, why oh why does UF make their intro econ classes four credits instead of the three they are at just about every other school? It doesn't matter that much to dd since she can check the boxes with other classes, but it does mean that if she wants a business minor, she'll have to CLEP the credits instead of transferring them.

Edited January 19, 2022 by chiguirre

[BookwormTo2]

@ByGrace3I just wanted to add that I understand your frustration with the rules for Florida public universities re: foreign language and homeschoolers. I inquired about this subject a few years ago, and was told in so many words by someone from a state legislator's office that homeschoolers are not a big enough group for enough state legislators to push for change to the foreign language rules for graduation from public Florida universities for homeschoolers. The FL Board of Governors make these rules. It definitely isn't fair to homeschoolers. That's what we see in other areas like college entrance tests.

Some things I'd consider if I were you would be: the FLATS exam (reviews on this seem to indicate it's a bit easier to attain proficiency than the CLEP exam for Spanish), dual enrollment for Spanish but start with Spanish 1, or do FLVS or another online regionally accredited provider for Spanish 1 & 2. I know with FLVS a student can finish the material early; no -- one doesn't learn much Spanish with FLVS but the point would be to check that box. Sending hugs as you navigate this process and make important decisions!

As a quick aside, the mandate for attending summer classes for 9 credits before graduation is something all public universities in Florida have; there are a few exceptions for students.