Confederate Grave, Part II. (Warning: dubious moral behavior mentioned)

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

LOL…..that is probably illegal…but very funny. 

Oh, definitely illegal. And probably a good way to get killed, unfortunately. But the woman has chutzpuh! 

[Scarlett]

Just now, MercyA said:

Oh, definitely illegal. And probably a good way to get killed, unfortunately. But the woman has chutzpuh! 

Right?! Where did this happen I wonder. 

[Frances]

6 minutes ago, MercyA said:

If you all have a problem with Quill taking a letter off a grave, I wonder what you think of this (apologies for the language):

 

 

Very brave, but also likely theft. Honestly, I’d be afraid of getting shot or beat up.

[MercyA]

On 1/5/2022 at 11:08 PM, Scarlett said:

Right?! Where did this happen I wonder. 

South Dakota, apparently. 

And here's a picture I took in my northern neck of the woods today. I know the woman who lives here. Based on the conversation I had with her about a month ago, her ancestors are not from the South. So why is she flying this flag?

I see this stuff ALL THE TIME here.

***Don't quote pic please.*** [removed for privacy]

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by MercyA

[BronzeTurtle]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But , but, but…….it is not reasonable or logical to think a letter you leave in a public place is going to remain private.  It just isn’t.  Sure a child believes that is possible….but that is childlike.  
 

obviously you're putting it in the open so anything *could* happen. but an envelope on a grave for a dead person? people are reading these things? they assume it's left for public consumption? if i found a letter on the street tomorrow addressed to someone else I wouldn't open it, much less if it was on a clearly marked grave.

i think both things can be true. of course leaving an envelope with a letter or card in it on a grave in a cemetery open to the public can be opened and read by anyone. but who in the world would go around opening letters that people wrote to the dead? it's obviously for someone else if it's on their grave.

i saw a photo on instagram once of someone leaving a stuffed animal, balloons, etc., on their child's grave for the child's birthday. one of the things was a bday envelope with a card in it. i'm almost positively sure they didn't expect random people in the cemetary to open it and read it, even if it was in a public place. that's not a child like expectation. you might expect a groundskeeper to read it or something, but maybe not even then.

but i just don't understand how it's not disrespectful to open a letter left for...not me...at someone's grave who I don't even know.

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

obviously you're putting it in the open so anything *could* happen. but an envelope on a grave for a dead person? people are reading these things? they assume it's left for public consumption? if i found a letter on the street tomorrow addressed to someone else I wouldn't open it, much less if it was on a clearly marked grave.

i think both things can be true. of course leaving an envelope with a letter or card in it on a grave in a cemetery open to the public can be opened and read by anyone. but who in the world would go around opening letters that people wrote to the dead? it's obviously for someone else if it's on their grave.

i saw a photo on instagram once of someone leaving a stuffed animal, balloons, etc., on their child's grave for the child's birthday. one of the things was a bday envelope with a card in it. i'm almost positively sure they didn't expect random people in the cemetary to open it and read it, even if it was in a public place. that's not a child like expectation. you might expect a groundskeeper to read it or something, but maybe not even then.

but i just don't understand how it's not disrespectful to open a letter left for...not me...at someone's grave who I don't even know.

Although I understand your point, also please remember this woman left this letter at the grave of someone she also did not know and who had been dead for 160 years or so.  

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Although I understand your point, also please remember this woman left this letter at the grave of someone she also did not know and who had been dead for 160 years or so.  

sure, so a long dead person might be different and I said that in my initial post in this thread (i think. if not, i meant to say it, lol). this would all make more sense to me if it was like she posted a sign or poster on the grave for all to see. or an open note card.  a card or letter left in an envelope to someone else...it just seems weird for anyone to open it except someone who might be related to the soldier or have a vested interesting in keeping up the grave.

if quill hadn't open it this lady's views likely wouldn't have seen the light of day anyway, which seems like it would be better than giving them any form of amplification, even to say how bad they are. if it is the kind of person i would stereotype, any attention or inkling that someone read their stuff would likely only fan the flames. but that's just a stereotype in my mind.

 

[BronzeTurtle]

Mercy, have you asked her why she flies it? it might open a good door to a meaningful conversation.

[WildflowerMom]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

If you all have a problem with Quill taking a letter off a grave, I wonder what you think of this (apologies for the language). A truck is not so sacred, but this is more clearly theft:

 

That's very clearly stealing, point blank.    The note is in a gray area, but this is black and white.    

[Melissa Louise]

The woman taking down the flag is a. Stealing it and b. I don't care she stole it. Good for her. 

A truck is not a grave. 

[Eos]

7 hours ago, MercyA said:

If you all have a problem with Quill taking a letter off a grave, I wonder what you think of this (apologies for the language). A truck is not so sacred, but this is more clearly theft:

 

Brilliant, this made my morning.  Yesterday I arrived at the parking lot of one of my favorite, twice-a-week hikes and found a large sticker for a white extremist hate group stuck to the metal gate.  This person in the video is absolutely courageous.  Stealing?  Really?  Let's talk about stolen.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Eos

[MEmama]

Does anyone here have insight into the rationale behind flying both the confederate and the American flags simultaneously?
 

Leaving aside feelings about it or BS about “southern pride”— I mean true, honest justifications for displaying symbols which are diametrically opposed? I’ve never been able to wrap my head around it.

[marbel]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

Does anyone here have insight into the rationale behind flying both the confederate and the American flags simultaneously?
 

Leaving aside feelings about it or BS about “southern pride”— I mean true, honest justifications for displaying symbols which are diametrically opposed? I’ve never been able to wrap my head around it.

In my limited experience and observation, I have come to the conclusion that it is sort of a general/generic "FREEDOM!" symbol.  

ETA: just to be clear - this is not my rationale - I don't agree with it. Just saying what I have gleaned from other people. I am not on close terms with those who fly Confederate flags, alone or next to the US flag.  

Edited January 6, 2022 by marbel

[Drama Llama]

I'm interested that there are people who think that the truck video is OK, and the grave isn't.

To me, removing the letter from  grave is much more clear cut.  

First of all, I know that when I'm at a loved one's grave, I feel much more vulnerable than I do in a more public place.  I'm vulnerable emotionally, because I'm there to grieve, and I'm vulnerable physically because I'm alone.  If someone wanted to hurt me, it would be much easier in the cemetery.   So, something threatening, like the stickers on the envelope, or the symbolism of the flag, is going to feel much more threatening in that context.  

Secondly, the right to fly a flag on your own property is clearly protected by our constitution. The driver of that truck might be a terrible person, but he's not breaking a law (other than the laws of decency of common sense, I agree with @MEmama that the two flags makes zero sense).  And taking the flag is clearly illegal.  The right to leave litter at either a historic site, or the grave of someone you're connected to is not protected, and cleaning up litter, whether or not it has a political message, is something that's not just legal but encouraged. 

The flag on the grave, to me, was in the gray area.  Other flags might be allowed, some cemeteries do allow them, and if so I think you can make an argument that this one should be allowed too although that depends on who owns the cemetery.  Also, at that point @Quill didn't know whether it was a relative or not.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Does anyone here have insight into the rationale behind flying both the confederate and the American flags simultaneously?
 

Leaving aside feelings about it or BS about “southern pride”— I mean true, honest justifications for displaying symbols which are diametrically opposed? I’ve never been able to wrap my head around it.

Because they think they are “true patriots”? 
I have certainly experienced many instances of right-leaning people thinking left-leaning people (me, IOW) “hate” the American flag. A lot of people on the right think a person displaying the American flag is surely “a conservative.” Pretty ridiculous, but that’s the rhetoric . 

[Pam in CT]

re flying US flag alongside Confederate"

10 hours ago, MercyA said:

..here's a picture I took in my northern neck of the woods today. I know the woman who lives here. Based on the conversation I had with her about a month ago, her ancestors are not from the South. So why is she flying this flag?

I see this stuff ALL THE TIME here....

 

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Does anyone here have insight into the rationale behind flying both the confederate and the American flags simultaneously?
 

Leaving aside feelings about it or BS about “southern pride”— I mean true, honest justifications for displaying symbols which are diametrically opposed? I’ve never been able to wrap my head around it.

Perhaps she's very fond of mint juleps and peach cobbler.

 

Or, the most-favored apologetic:

20 minutes ago, marbel said:

In my limited experience and observation, I have come to the conclusion that it is sort of a general/generic "FREEDOM!" symbol.  

But for me, flying the US flag alongside the Confederate flag symbolizes a determination to fuse the *whole nation* around *white supremacy.*  I mean, the apologetics may be "freedom," but it's not calling for "freedom" for Colin Kaepernick, KWIM?

Flying both flags simultaneously explicitly fuses the unambiguous symbol of white supremacy, that arose during the Civil War (where is was only late and irregularly used by states supporting the "right" to hold slaves), that became regionally popularized by the emergent KKK (where it was wielded by lynchers) and then nationally popularized during the Civil Rights era (where it was wielded by adherents of the "freedom" and "state rights" to enforce Jim Crow segregation and violently enforced voting restrictions)... and the US flag.

To me the wish behind the symbolism is pretty clear:  One nation, under white supremacist rule.

 

 

 

re taking Confederate flag off a truck, vs off a gravesite

8 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

The woman taking down the flag is a. Stealing it and b. I don't care she stole it. Good for her. 

A truck is not a grave. 

This is interesting. It seems (?) to suggest that you afford a high degree of sanctity/taboo to the gravesite location -- higher than both law and general ethics against theft. Is that right?

How does my hypothetical ripping Iron Crosses off the Jewish cemetery graves read to you?

 

3 hours ago, Eos said:

Brilliant, this made my morning.  Yesterday I arrived at the parking lot of one of my favorite, twice-a-week hikes and found a large sticker for a white extremist hate group stuck to the metal gate.  This person in the video is absolutely courageous.  Stealing?  Really?  Let's talk about stolen.

Right. This is where we are, on 1/6 one year later.

These stickers and flags and winking white power hand signals and emojis and outright Replacement Theory diatribes on national news have become nationwide and normative.

And civility -- polite changing of the subject, polite walking on, polite walking past these supremacist symbols popping up all over our landscape and polluting it with toxins, polite letting white supremacists lie -- is not getting the job done. 

I do not know what CAN get the job done. I despair of the question, on the darker days.

But civility (and, my friends over on Politics know, I AM ALL FOR CIVILITY) isn't doing the trick.

 

One thing @Sneezyone  has taught me over the years is, civility *always* sustains the existing power structure.

[MEmama]

53 minutes ago, marbel said:

In my limited experience and observation, I have come to the conclusion that it is sort of a general/generic "FREEDOM!" symbol.  

Right, that’s a talking point but only one flag represents freedom. The confederate flag very literally symbolizes oppression. They represent completely opposing values.

Even if one wanted to pretend the confederacy wasn’t about slavery, the flags still represent 2 different countries. Either a person is proud of the secessionist Confederate States , or proud of the United States. It literally can’t be both.

[1234]

I haven’t commented because I’ve been trying to figure out how I feel. I do feel it’s wrong to remove something from a grave, but it’s also not working to just let people be wrong and to be “nice” in regards to racism. I think we have to do things now that make us uncomfortable if we ever hope for it to get better. I think that realization is even more difficult right now because I assume all these racist, Confederate flag flying people are also carrying guns. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Joker2

[MEmama]

39 minutes ago, Quill said:

Because they think they are “true patriots”? 
I have certainly experienced many instances of right-leaning people thinking left-leaning people (me, IOW) “hate” the American flag. A lot of people on the right think a person displaying the American flag is surely “a conservative.” Pretty ridiculous, but that’s the rhetoric . 

But true patriots of which country— the no-longer-in-existence Confederacy, or the United States? 
 

It’s quite different than flying a flag of say, Ireland, cause you think it’s neat your grandparents were from there and it’s pretty, and also the American flag because well, you’re an American and that’s neat too. Flying the Confederate flag alongside the American flag seems to be either completely ignorant, the result of poor education, or an exercise in some serious brain pretzeling. I *want* to believe there are more options, though, that there are honest reasons for pledging ones allegiance to or feeling a deep sense of pride in the two completely opposing symbols. I’ve been musing on it for 40 some years and still don’t understand.

Edited January 6, 2022 by MEmama

[Pam in CT]

re "competing values" based on past associations, vs "integrated vision" based on aspirations for the future

7 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Right, that’s a talking point but only one flag represents freedom. The confederate flag very literally symbolizes oppression. They represent completely opposing values.

Even if one wanted to pretend the confederacy wasn’t about slavery, the flags still represent 2 different countries. Either a person is proud of the secessionist Confederate States , or proud of the United States. It literally can’t be both.

That's where it's helpful to me to differentiate the language of apologetics about the past, from aspirations for the future as evidenced by repeated actions.

The Confederate flag-supporting language of "states rights" and "Southern pride" is backward looking. The language seeks to (re)define what the Lost Cause was "about," 160 years in the past.

Today's simultaneous waving of the Confederate flag alongside the US isn't speaking to the past. It is declaring a vision of the future.

[marbel]

33 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

<snip>

But for me, flying the US flag alongside the Confederate flag symbolizes a determination to fuse the *whole nation* around *white supremacy.*  I mean, the apologetics may be "freedom," but it's not calling for "freedom" for Colin Kaepernick, KWIM?

<snip>

 

29 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Right, that’s a talking point but only one flag represents freedom. The confederate flag very literally symbolizes oppression. They represent completely opposing values.

Even if one wanted to pretend the confederacy wasn’t about slavery, the flags still represent 2 different countries. Either a person is proud of the secessionist Confederate States , or proud of the United States. It literally can’t be both.

Right, I get that. The rationale does not go very deep. It is not well-thought-out, in my opinion/observation. (And, to be clear, it's not my rationale - I'm don't agree with it.) But I think for many people, that's as far as it goes. Freedom, with no thought for whom exactly. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by marbel

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, marbel said:

 

Right, I get that. The rationale does not go very deep. It is not well-thought-out, in my opinion/observation. (And, to be clear, it's not my rationale - I'm don't agree with it.) But I think for many people, that's as far as it goes. Freedom, with no thought for whom exactly. 

I always get a voice in my head saying 'Merica' when I see stuff like that.  

[MEmama]

6 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re "competing values" based on past associations, vs "integrated vision" based on aspirations for the future

That's where it's helpful to me to differentiate the language of apologetics about the past, from aspirations for the future as evidenced by repeated actions.

The Confederate flag-supporting language of "states rights" and "Southern pride" is backward looking. The language seeks to (re)define what the Lost Cause was "about," 160 years in the past.

Today's simultaneous waving of the Confederate flag alongside the US isn't speaking to the past. It is declaring a vision of the future.

Maybe. But is this really anything new?

I've seen the flags flown together my entire life (and I grew up in an ultra liberal area of California). I don’t think we are in an unprecedented period where suddenly a significant minority feel empowered; I remember the skinhead movement in the 80’s, the white militia groups and the terrorism they supported, Rodney King. Swazticas worn on armbands and graffitied on walls. As the daughter of a German immigrant, I remember feeling awkward in history class. I remember the side eye mom got when her accent was identified.

The vision for an oppressive state has been as much a part of America as the ideals of liberty since before the country's inception. How is reconciliation possible when the opposing desires are so deeply engrained? At some point, should we keep trying?

[Ceilingfan]

I agree that the truck situation is more egregious. Stealing is rude.

Why people fly the American and Confederate flags together - I suppose they identify with both things, whatever the Confederacy means to them. I'd guess at a first stab that they like things about America and they like things about what the Confederate flag symbolizes (which are probably different for different people, from "this is my ancestry" to "I like the South" to "the South should have won"), and they don't see the things like they like about each as being particularly in opposition. 

I mean, you can say it's illogical and these people are stupid, but if you're analyzing it from a point of "why do they do it" instead of "why are they stupid," you might get more interesting ideas. 

I see people flying the gay pride flag and the American flag, and have seen it since before gay marriage was legal. I doubt they like (or liked) everything the American flag stands for, or every aspect of the social structure of contemporary America, but I'd guess they like some things about it and also like some things about the gay pride movement.

Or here are two opposite ideas:

1. They're sets of flags that mitigate each other - the American flag with the Confederate flag says hey, I like the South but I'm not a total nutjob, I think America is still pretty great (mitigating the effect of flying the Confederate flag). The American flag with the pride flag says hey, I think gay rights are important but I'm mainstream enough to still fly the American flag too, please don't egg my house.

2. They're sets of flags that reinforce each other (instead of mitigating) - the American flag with the Confederate flag says I'm a racist and I think America should be too, structurally (i.e. I think America as a nation should be identified with the ideology of the Confederacy); the American flag with the gay pride flag says I support gay rights and I think that's inherently American (i.e. I think America as a nation should be identified with gay rights).

 

But of course these are unconscious motivations; it's not like most people are thinking these things through, or thinking much of anything through; they put up symbols that feel right to them. Why it feels right is interesting to think about, though.

[TravelingChris]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:50 PM, Catwoman said:

Oh, I know that! Sorry if I made it sound like you had. I was just joking with Quill because I am on NextDoor in my area, and some of the people post crazy stuff!   🙂

Our general arguments are about animals,, most specifically coyotes.  some idiots don;'t understand that they are extremely well adapted animals to all kinds of situations and cities are one of the places they have well adapted to and they eat pets, among other prey.  And no, we can't kill them all.  They tried eradication somewhere in the northern midwest states in the fifties- it caused an increase of coyotes.  That is because if you kill the alpha male, or maybe it was the alpha pair, what occurs if more packs form.  So instead of one alpha pair having pups. you now have three alpha pairs having pups.

And shooting is not allowed within our city limits.

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

Does anyone here have insight into the rationale behind flying both the confederate and the American flags simultaneously?
 

Leaving aside feelings about it or BS about “southern pride”— I mean true, honest justifications for displaying symbols which are diametrically opposed? I’ve never been able to wrap my head around it.

I do not think they see the symbols as diametrically opposed,

But, you have somewhat the same issue when someone flies both a Mexican flag and a Texas flag.  Or even a Texas flag and an American flag.  The Texas flag is a state flag, but it is the same flag as that of the Republic of Texas.

[Forget-Me-Not]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

Does anyone here have insight into the rationale behind flying both the confederate and the American flags simultaneously?
 

Leaving aside feelings about it or BS about “southern pride”— I mean true, honest justifications for displaying symbols which are diametrically opposed? I’ve never been able to wrap my head around it.

There was someone in my area with a giant truck flag that had a smaller confederate flag *superimposed* over the center of an American flag.  The ignorance (willful or not) is astounding.  

Edited January 6, 2022 by Forget-Me-Not

[Catwoman]

I don't agree with stealing another person's property, even if that property is a Confederate flag. Aside from the fact that it's illegal, stealing from someone is not the way to convince them that their views are wrong. If anything, it just makes them even more convinced that "the other side" is terrible... because "the other side" STEALS THINGS. 

I think it's kind of ridiculous to hang any kind of giant flag off the back of your truck, but I certainly wouldn't condone stealing them. Those flags aren't cheap, and someone paid good money for them. I don't think it's right to steal something just because you disagree with someone's point of view. It solves absolutely nothing and only serves to further alienate that person. 

I feel the same way when I hear about people stealing campaign signs. If you don't think people should vote for a certain candidate, that's fine, but stealing their signs is both unethical and illegal. But people justify it by saying the candidate's views are wrong, so they are doing a public service by removing them. I recently drove past a yard that still had huge (seriously huge!) banners in their yard expressing a particular viewpoint about the 2020 election in very aggressive terms. I strongly disagreed with what those banners said, but I certainly didn't go rip them down and swipe them. It wasn't my property and they weren't my banners to remove.

[TravelingChris]

On 1/4/2022 at 5:08 PM, Melissa Louise said:

I don't think it's terrible either. It's just different to what I would do. Had I decided to read it, I probably would have thought as above - that we are all shaped by luck. 

I don't really understand the utility in posting about it here, other than as an interesting anecdote. I am unsure as to whether WTM Chat board is full of Confederate honouring women.

 

I don't think so. 

We had a stature to a confederate soldier by our courthouse that our city and county decided to move to the cemetery where there are a lot of former confederate soldiers (and also former Union soldiers) buried.  Normally every October, we have local actors and historically minded people, hold a cemetery walk one Sunday afternoon.  Hundreds of people dress up as characters representing mostly some of the people buried in the graveyard  and tell their stories to people who stop and listen.  It is a very popular event but the entire idea is history and curiosity- not ancestor worship. 

Now a lot of counties in my viewing area had similar monuments.  In my county and city, there was almost unanimous consent to move the statue to the cemetery.  In some of the other counties. I have heard people speak up at meetings (on tv so may not be a far representation) about how they don't want their statutes moved and how it honors their ancestors.  But no, I do not think that the people expressing those views are in great representation here.

[TravelingChris]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:30 PM, Quill said:

Well, admittedly, if he had met me like 12 years earlier, he would have been more in the ballpark. 

Its just interesting to me that he pinned the “liberal” label on me minutes after I objected to his racial stereotyping of his “black clients” who apparently all behave as one mass and not, you know, actual individual people. 🙄 Why am I liberal because I call out that 💩? 

 

And now, ladies, I have to go make food, shower and go to sleep. And shut my chicken cop. So dont take my sudden silence to mean anything. 

And I am a conservative and so is my dd1 and we both call out racist ideas so I agree with you- you don't have to be a liberal to despise racism.

[TravelingChris]

On 1/4/2022 at 7:27 PM, Melissa Louise said:

Oh my. 

This is very different to where I live.

I honestly don't know any seniors who aren't online. Rural/city thing? 

Yes, very different than my experiences too.   Though I know we have problems with internet in our rural areas.

[MEmama]

55 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

I agree that the truck situation is more egregious. Stealing is rude.

Why people fly the American and Confederate flags together - I suppose they identify with both things, whatever the Confederacy means to them. I'd guess at a first stab that they like things about America and they like things about what the Confederate flag symbolizes (which are probably different for different people, from "this is my ancestry" to "I like the South" to "the South should have won"), and they don't see the things like they like about each as being particularly in opposition. 

I mean, you can say it's illogical and these people are stupid, but if you're analyzing it from a point of "why do they do it" instead of "why are they stupid," you might get more interesting ideas. 

I see people flying the gay pride flag and the American flag, and have seen it since before gay marriage was legal. I doubt they like (or liked) everything the American flag stands for, or every aspect of the social structure of contemporary America, but I'd guess they like some things about it and also like some things about the gay pride movement.

Or here are two opposite ideas:

1. They're sets of flags that mitigate each other - the American flag with the Confederate flag says hey, I like the South but I'm not a total nutjob, I think America is still pretty great (mitigating the effect of flying the Confederate flag). The American flag with the pride flag says hey, I think gay rights are important but I'm mainstream enough to still fly the American flag too, please don't egg my house.

2. They're sets of flags that reinforce each other (instead of mitigating) - the American flag with the Confederate flag says I'm a racist and I think America should be too, structurally (i.e. I think America as a nation should be identified with the ideology of the Confederacy); the American flag with the gay pride flag says I support gay rights and I think that's inherently American (i.e. I think America as a nation should be identified with gay rights).

 

But of course these are unconscious motivations; it's not like most people are thinking these things through, or thinking much of anything through; they put up symbols that feel right to them. Why it feels right is interesting to think about, though.

To be clear, I’m trying very hard to not make assumptions about people who fly both. I’m asking in good faith and trying hard to listen and learn.

That said, a confederate flag is vastly different than a pride flag. An American flag and pride flag flown together makes total sense: they both literally symbolize equality. A confederate flag, otoh, literally symbolizes oppression and leaving the United States. There’s just no getting around that. My brother used to have one hanging in the garage because he thought it symbolized southern pride— dad is from the Deep South and his young mind didn’t go further than “neat!”  and “yay Dukes of Hazzard!”. Then he learned that it doesn’t just mean the south is neat, and he got rid of it. 
 

I do think your first point is interesting, but I don’t think it solves the question of honoring opposite belief systems. I guess you’re saying it’s how religious folks cherry pick what they like out of their preferred book— these folks are cherry picking what they like out of each flag? 
 

 

[SKL]

FTR I don't fly the confederate flag, and I think we should ask those who do (black, white, female, male) what it means to them, if that's really what we want to know.

That said, to the question why isn't it diametrically opposed to flying the US flag - I could think of some possible reasons.

• Post-Civil War, it represents a movement (for states' rights or equity or whatever) more so than a geographic "country."
• Post-Civil War, it represents the importance of protest and free speech as protected rights within the USA.

Perhaps it does represent white supremacy to some people, but I don't think that is the only possible meaning.

I think we do ourselves and our kids a disservice by not delving deeper into these questions, instead making up the answer ourselves based on whatever superficial stereotype makes us feel superior.

We were taught as kids the simplistic story that the Civil War was over slavery, the good guys won, and the confederate flag was simply a symbol of all things bad.  Just like we were taught only good things about Christopher Columbus, etc., etc.  As adults, it seems the childish narrative of the Civil War is one of the few big stories we don't question.  It's like still believing in Santa Claus.

[SKL]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/30/why-some-black-defenders-of-the-confederate-flag-believe-slavery-was-a-choice/

Ignore the rather ridiculous title, and below, you can see how some black people view the Confederate flag, for example.

[1234]

I’m from small town Texas and have known many people (some in my family) that had Confederate flags and felt it was about Southern pride. Most of those people don’t have those flags anymore because they know what it means today and it has everything to do with racism. The ones that still do have made it very clear that’s what it’s about as well. I don’t buy people are flying them in today’s times for any other reason.

[MercyA]

12 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Mercy, have you asked her why she flies it? it might open a good door to a meaningful conversation.

I have thought about it, but I don't really know her that well. 99% of our conversations have been of the "Hi, how are you, cold weather we're having, isn't it?" variety as I go through her check-out line at the grocery store. 

She came to a free Thanksgiving meal at our church and I sat down to say hi because I thought she might not know anyone. The conversation turned to her Native American ancestors and later to dogs, subjects that interested us both. 🙂

If we ever have another substantial conversation, I could probably ask her about it. The asking would be the easy part...knowing what to say after that, not so much.

[Ceilingfan]

9 minutes ago, MEmama said:

To be clear, I’m trying very hard to not make assumptions about people who fly both. I’m asking in good faith and trying hard to listen and learn.

That said, a confederate flag is vastly different than a pride flag. An American flag and pride flag flown together makes total sense: they both literally symbolize equality. A confederate flag, otoh, literally symbolizes oppression and leaving the United States. There’s just no getting around that. My brother used to have one hanging in the garage because he thought it symbolized southern pride— dad is from the Deep South and his young mind didn’t go further than “neat!”  and “yay Dukes of Hazzard!”. Then he learned that it doesn’t just mean the south is neat, and he got rid of it. 
 

I do think your first point is interesting, but I don’t think it solves the question of honoring opposite belief systems. I guess you’re saying it’s how religious folks cherry pick what they like out of their preferred book— these folks are cherry picking what they like out of each flag? 
 

 

To you, the American flag and the pride flag both symbolize equality. To someone else, I can see that the American flag might not symbolize equality - either in a positive or negative way. When I was young, burning the flag was all the rage among the far left young person set - we believed the American flag symbolized classist oppression (and some people believed it symbolized, interestingly, racism).

I mean, this is true now! Colin Kaepernick refuses to stand for the flag, in my understanding, because he thinks it currently symbolizes, to some degree, racist oppression.

On the other side, I suspect some people think the American flag symbolizes equality of opportunity but not of outcome and that this is (interpreted strictly, through their lens) probably somewhat coherent with a soft racism.

The pride flag is the same way, interestingly - to you, it symbolizes equality, as I'm sure it does to people who fly it. But to people who oppose part of the political ideology of the gay rights movement - say feminists who think transgender rights are sometimes in opposition to women's rights and therefore oppress women - it doesn't symbolize equality, exactly.

In fact, I can see (in a milder way, but still) the exact same argument you're making about the incoherence of flying the confederate flag and the american flag being made byb  some feminists about flying the gay rights flag (at least the one that includes transgender rights) and the american flag - they'd say, don't these people realize that transgender rights are being used to oppress women, and thus are counter to the essential message of the American flag?

The difference of course is the Civil war, I get that - but I don't think it's much of a stretch to suppose that people who fly both flags aren't interested in an actual return to the actual confederacy, but just like some things it stood for (or more likely, some things it stands for in the current day).

You can say all you like that the confederate flag technically means literal treason and secession and rebellion and the negation of the American flag, but obviously for some people that is no longer what it symbolizes, or they couldn't fly the two together. Symbolic meaning changes.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

But true patriots of which country— the no-longer-in-existence Confederacy, or the United States? 
 

It’s quite different than flying a flag of say, Ireland, cause you think it’s neat your grandparents were from there and it’s pretty, and also the American flag because well, you’re an American and that’s neat too. Flying the Confederate flag alongside the American flag seems to be either completely ignorant, the result of poor education, or an exercise in some serious brain pretzeling. I *want* to believe there are more options, though, that there are honest reasons for pledging ones allegiance to or feeling a deep sense of pride in the two completely opposing symbols. I’ve been musing on it for 40 some years and still don’t understand.

Yes! I think the Southerns or anyone else into what they call "Southern Pride" or "The Lost Cause" represented with a Confederate flag are intentionally ignoring the central truth: when someone secedes from a country, they forever cease to be a citizen of that country. In this case, they were citizens of the Confederacy, not the US,  because no one can have it both ways. It was their choice to leave the US.  There's no unringing that bell.  It was never Americans fighting Americans, it was Confederates fighting Americans.  Confederates (soldiers and those who supported secession at the time of secession) were not Americans during the American Civil War-It's permanent. There were enemies of the US. The South didn't rejoin the Union because they were convinced of their sin and treason, they rejoined as unrepentant conquests who were desperate and defeated.

The South at the time  chose to throw away their American citizenship when they seceded, so they were foreign combatants killing American soldiers. Anyone praising Confederates who fought in the war are praising foreign combatants for killing Americans whether they admit it or not. That's disloyal to the US.  I have ancestors on both sides. I have no praise of any kind for the traitorous Confederate ones. That's why it's so offensive to have statues honoring Confederates like Robert E. Lee in the US, particularly on taxpayer funded property-it's the moral equivalent to a statue honoring the German General Rommel from WWII. Nazi Germany was an enemy of the US and killed American soldiers exactly like the Confederates were enemies of the US killing American soldiers. That classification will never change because it's historical fact. Germans today aren't enemies of the US, but their ancestors during the war sure as h3ll were. Southerners today aren't enemies of the US, but their Confederate ancestors sure as h3ll were.

[Ceilingfan]

And yes, it's exactly like cherry-picking from religious texts, although I think that's an unkind and reductive way to describe it - more like, the consensus around what to emphasize (or how to interpret) religious texts changes with society, over time, and so what adherence to the religion means (and what displaying its symbols means) changes over time and across culture and geography. 

The cross meant a very different thing 300 years ago than it does today. Being a Christian meant a very different thing, especially as it relates to people who are not Christian. The symbol is the same, but I don't think Christians today who have a cross around their neck are trying to say we should burn heretics, kwim? They're not even saying that the religious beliefs of people who were Christian 100 years ago (separate of the political beliefs of Christians) are correct, or that they identify with them. 

Some of them are (minus the heretic burning, probably). But many clearly are not.

[Bootsie]

8 minutes ago, MEmama said:

To be clear, I’m trying very hard to not make assumptions about people who fly both. I’m asking in good faith and trying hard to listen and learn.

That said, a confederate flag is vastly different than a pride flag. An American flag and pride flag flown together makes total sense: they both literally symbolize equality. A confederate flag, otoh, literally symbolizes oppression and leaving the United States. There’s just no getting around that. My brother used to have one hanging in the garage because he thought it symbolized southern pride— dad is from the Deep South and his young mind didn’t go further than “neat!”  and “yay Dukes of Hazzard!”. Then he learned that it doesn’t just mean the south is neat, and he got rid of it. 
 

I do think your first point is interesting, but I don’t think it solves the question of honoring opposite belief systems. I guess you’re saying it’s how religious folks cherry pick what they like out of their preferred book— these folks are cherry picking what they like out of each flag? 
 

 

Symbols are complex.  They can mean many different things; they can have different meanings in different contexts; they can have meaning to an individual that is different than the meaning that is held by a particular group.  

I do not see how one can take a symbol and say that it literally means one thing above all other things and decide that is the meaning for everyone else.  

There are many things in the US (past and and present) that I am ideologically opposed to; if I fly an American flag I am cherry picking what I like that flag to represent; there are things about my alma mater that I am philosophically not in agreement with, but I wear a sweatshirt with the school crest, cherry picking what I like that crest to represent.  I am not in full agreement with my church's stance on particular issues, but I display the church's symbol.  I know Republicans who cherry pick what the Republican party stands for and Democrats who cherry pick what the Democratic party stands for when they display symobls of the party. And, if I really look closely at all of the symbols that I display, I will find that there are inconsistencies and conflicts between the symbols (and especially more inconsistencies to others who attribute different meaning to those symbols than I do).   

If the beginning premise is that the confederate flag literally means oppression and leaving the US, that it can only mean that, and that it universally means that, then it is difficult to understand why someone would fly both flags.  It really boils down to whether the question is "Why would someone fly both flags when this flag literally means X?"  or "What does the flag man to someone who is flying both?"  

[Ceilingfan]

removed

Edited May 26, 2022 by Ceilingfan

[Ceilingfan]

removed

Edited May 26, 2022 by Ceilingfan

[WildflowerMom]

I'm born and raised in the deep south and I see these flags around here (although they're certainly definitely getting less popular 🙌🏼).   It is very rare to see one on a vehicle, too.   My lips automatically turn into a sneer when I see them.  I can't help it.    🤷🏻‍♀️ 
 

That said, around here it is a 'southern pride', 'it's history', 'f*ck you liberals' thing.   I think some of you are going waaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy too overboard in your attempt to analyze the intention and rationale.    The people I see who fly these are usually uneducated, poorly spoken, poverty-stricken people and my guess is that they want to align with 'something' to feel part of 'something' and that's what they chose that symbol.   I've never asked.  I should, but I'd have to tamp down the sneer and resting b*tch face and that is hard for me to do.     
Some of you will scream that I'm labeling them, but I'm reporting what I see here.      

I suspect if you see these symbols in other parts of the country that those people have done more research into what 'they think' these symbols mean, because unless you were raised around these symbols and live in the south, you'd have to seek them out to form a belief on them.    The people waving these in say, Maine, are more dangerous, imho, because they've probably actually looked into what the history is and ascribe to certain beliefs.   

Fwiw, the most racist, n-word spouting people I've know have all come to the south from the Northeast, and the most awful was from NYC.  🤮   I have no contact with them.     I suspect it's because the northeast (and other parts of the country) have way less black-white diversity.   It's almost a homogenous bubble, not unlike some Scandinavian countries, in my (very) humble opinion.    

[MEmama]

Thanks for the perspectives, @Ceilingfan. 

[Zinnia2]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

We were taught as kids the simplistic story that the Civil War was over slavery, the good guys won, and the confederate flag was simply a symbol of all things bad.  Just like we were taught only good things about Christopher Columbus, etc., etc.  As adults, it seems the childish narrative of the Civil War is one of the few big stories we don't question.  It's like still believing in Santa Claus.

This is so interesting to me.  We were taught that the Civil War was over states rights, full stop.  And yes, sure, slavery was wrong, but eventually the states would have surely figured that out, and it was overstepping of the federal government to force the states to do the right thing before they were ready to.  

[Pam in CT]

re "states' rights"

1 hour ago, BetsyT said:

This is so interesting to me.  We were taught that the Civil War was over states rights, full stop.  And yes, sure, slavery was wrong, but eventually the states would have surely figured that out, and it was overstepping of the federal government to force the states to do the right thing before they were ready to.  

This is interesting to me.

Because to me, "rights" are not -- grammatically or substantively -- ever a "full stop." Rights are, intrinsically, related to some follow-on substance. 

Our Constitution, for example, specifies rights to speech, expression of religion, assembly, petition and etc; and rights from imprisonment without due process, quartering, unreasonable search, seizure of assets, establishment of religion, and etc.

But there are plenty other things -- some of which other nations and/or other times, have deemed to be rights -- access to water/ health care, protection from state-imposed capital punishment -- that our Constitution did not and still does not afford.

What, substantively, does "states' rights" mean to you? 

Right to do what?

(Genuinely not being snarky. The historical contexts in which the Confederate flag was historically hauled out, starting with (but not culminating with) the Civil War, *do have* particular, very race-framed, substantive content.

Is there *other* substantive content that you recall the term being tied to in your education?

[Lady Florida.]

4 hours ago, Ceilingfan said:

I agree that the truck situation is more egregious. Stealing is rude.

Why people fly the American and Confederate flags together - I suppose they identify with both things, whatever the Confederacy means to them. I'd guess at a first stab that they like things about America and they like things about what the Confederate flag symbolizes (which are probably different for different people, from "this is my ancestry" to "I like the South" to "the South should have won"), and they don't see the things like they like about each as being particularly in opposition. 

 

1. They're sets of flags that mitigate each other - the American flag with the Confederate flag says hey, I like the South but I'm not a total nutjob, I think America is still pretty great (mitigating the effect of flying the Confederate flag). The American flag with the pride flag says hey, I think gay rights are important but I'm mainstream enough to still fly the American flag too, please don't egg my house.

2. They're sets of flags that reinforce each other (instead of mitigating) - the American flag with the Confederate flag says I'm a racist and I think America should be too, structurally (i.e. I think America as a nation should be identified with the ideology of the Confederacy); the American flag with the gay pride flag says I support gay rights and I think that's inherently American (i.e. I think America as a nation should be identified with gay rights).

 

 

To the first part: Having lived in Florida and around people who moved here from other parts of the south most of my life I would have to agree with you. There *were* people who saw the Confederate flag as simply showing their ancestry or their love for where they live. Of course others were clearly white supremacists. However, in recent years I don't think it's possible to not understand how hurtful that flag is to others. There was a time when that wasn't clearly understood but that time has long gone. Anyone flying that flag today has to know it's hurtful. 

As for the rest, that comparison doesn't make sense. Gay people and their allies didn't try to secede and form the Gay States of America or whatever. That's the difference.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Lady Florida.

[Ceilingfan]

In general the conservative line is that the to the states are reserved all the powers not specifically stated as belonging to the federal government.

[Lady Florida.]

1 hour ago, BetsyT said:

This is so interesting to me.  We were taught that the Civil War was over states rights, full stop.  And yes, sure, slavery was wrong, but eventually the states would have surely figured that out, and it was overstepping of the federal government to force the states to do the right thing before they were ready to.  

Interesting. I was in school in NJ until 8th grade and Florida for all of high school. We were taught in both places that it was complex. Not the simple "it was about slavery" or the simple "it was about states' rights". 

33 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re "states' rights"

Right to do what?

 

When talking about the Confederacy it was the right to own other people of course. That's what the states' rights crowd doesn't seem to want to admit.

And yes a lot of it was economic because without slave labor the South's plantations wouldn't continue as they were. So yeah, economic states' rights to free labor by owning other human beings. Let's stop letting the UDAC and 21st century racists tell us otherwise. Remember, it was well after the Civil War was over that it was rebranded. Read the secession documents of the Confederate states. Most of them flat out state they're leaving because the North wants to eliminate their right to own actual people. They use the words slaves and slavery, so there's no question what the writers of these primary source documents meant.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Lady Florida.

[Sneezyone]

The ‘right’ to own, beat, rape, trade, abuse and otherwise commodify human beings. That’s the right that isn’t explicitly reserved to the feds that confederate sympathizers venerate. No one espousing that line of bull hockey ever finishes the thought because it’s so outrageous.