Confederate Grave, Part II. (Warning: dubious moral behavior mentioned)

[Ginevra]

So, I’m sure some of you remember me talking about the confederate grave in the cemetery I pass walking to work. It’s a legit soldier’s grave, who died in the Civil War battle fought right outside my office window. 
 

The flag did eventually disappear; not sure where it went. But for the past few weeks I have been walking by and saw a Christmas card lying atop the grave. 
 

Well, now it has been quite affected by the weather and…well. I took it. I wanted to see what sentiment it had in it. It had writing on the front that is obviously supportive of the Confederate army. 
 

Inside is a sentiment in support of the cause of the Confederacy from someone who says she (yes, you read that right; not some beer-swilling middle-aged white guy in a red cap, but a woman) is a descendant of a confederate soldier. 
 

It does actually have her actual name in there. 
 

I have no plans to do anything; what would I even do? But it bothers me that a site that should be historical is functioning as a shrine for “believers”. I don’t know what the answer is but I really dislike that quite a bit. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Quill
Remove photo

[Faith-manor]

Wow. The tyrants were the ones who wanted to end slavery, not the slave owners? I have words for her, and most of them aren't particularly civilized!

I can understand how you feel. I don't know what the answer is other than contacting the sexton for the cemetery to see what the rules are. Here plants and flags are all that can be left, and the flags allowed are the standard U.S. one, small (I think 24" tall is the limit) and up close to the headstone so the section doesn't have a mowing headache. Something like cards or pottery, glassware, plaques not authorized by the next of kin of the gravesite owner, etc. would be removed. But, I think these things are very individual to each cemetery except military cemeteries which have DoD rules.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Faith-manor

[MercyA]

It's almost like she wants someone to contact her. (Don't bother.) Weird and very sad.

[Idalou]

 There's nothing to do, with regard to her card. She can write whatever nonsense she wants to a dead relative that most likely wasn't one iota as stupid as she is, unless there was a telegraph version of Fox and OAN. This person wouldn't recognize peace like a river if she fell in headfirst. 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Idalou said:

 There's nothing to do, with regard to her card. She can write whatever nonsense she wants to a dead relative that most likely wasn't one iota as stupid as she is, unless there was a telegraph version of Fox and OAN. This person wouldn't recognize peace like a river if she fell in headfirst. 

You win today! Nailed it!! 😂

[Tree Frog]

I wonder what she'll think when she discovers her card missing? That the soldier spirited it away? 😂

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, wilrunner said:

I wonder what she'll think when she discovers her card missing? That the soldier spirited it away? 😂

This could be fun. Quill could leave secret messages behind for her whenever she takes away a tribute. The this one, Quill. "I was wrong!" Do it up right. Get some aged parchment, write with quill and ink, seal it with wax....just give it some flair. 😁

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

I wonder what she'll think when she discovers her card missing? That the soldier spirited it away? 😂

His ghost wanted it for his Confederate-themed man cave. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This could be fun. Quill could leave secret messages behind for her whenever she takes away a tribute. The this one, Quill. "I was wrong!" Do it up right. Get some aged parchment, write with quill and ink, seal it with wax....just give it some flair. 😁

“Dear Great-great granddaughter: thank you for your sentiment but it turns out, we were wrong. Also, this church here was for the Union but they still took care of me when my leg was shot off and I languished with fever. Then they decently buried my body right here, even though I was on the losing side and none of my relatives could afford a burial. They were actually some pretty decent folks.

Also, I talked to Jesus since I got here and he said no; the cause of the confederacy was not what he would do.

Best, 

Wrong Sider”

[Ceilingfan]

I'd put it back; it's not yours. 

I don't see this as substantially different than someone leaving a Christian card that says "glad you are in heaven as you believed in Jesus" (implying unbelievers are in hell, or whatever) - people are free to have and express unsavory beliefs. I think it's pretty remarkable that you stole something from a grave and are fine with it just because you disagree with the person who left it.

 

https://www.philosophybro.com/archive/mailbag-monday-freedom (I really like philosophybro, ymmv)

"So let’s start with negative liberty. John Stuart Mill offers the most explicit account of negative liberty, and the gist of it is this: To be free means to be left the fuck alone. As long as we’re not hurting anyone else or infringing on anyone else’s freedom, what reason could anyone possibly have for stopping me from doing something? Who gives a shit if I want to be a Scientologist or chew tobacco until my face just is cancer, as long as I don’t try to force anyone else to pay my medical bills when I’m inevitably hospitalized? If a bunch of bros want to get together and stare at the sun for no reason at all, except to prove that they’rereal men and whatnot, and they all agree to do it, you know, let 'em.

Should stoners have the right to smoke marijuana if they want? Why not? Even the KKK - I mean, I think we can all agree they’re raging dickheads, but do people have a right to believe racist shit? Do Evangelical Christians have a right to believe that I’m going to Hell? As long as they don’t hurt anyone else!"

[Farrar]

This is exactly what I said it was in the previous thread. Of course it's a woman. Why is that surprising to anyone?!? It was the United Daughters of the Confederacy who spearheaded the whole "Lost Cause" narrative. And honoring dead Confederates with monuments and laying wreaths on their graves and so forth was a huge part of that work. What you're looking at is part of that.

 

[Farrar]

Imma just put this here... obviously Vox has a political slant. If you think honoring dead racists who committed literal treason is fine and dandy, just scroll on by.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

I'd put it back; it's not yours. 

I don't see this as substantially different than someone leaving a Christian card that says "glad you are in heaven as you believed in Jesus" (implying unbelievers are in hell, or whatever) - people are free to have and express unsavory beliefs. I think it's pretty remarkable that you stole something from a grave and are fine with it just because you disagree with the person who left it.

 

https://www.philosophybro.com/archive/mailbag-monday-freedom (I really like philosophybro, ymmv)

"So let’s start with negative liberty. John Stuart Mill offers the most explicit account of negative liberty, and the gist of it is this: To be free means to be left the fuck alone. As long as we’re not hurting anyone else or infringing on anyone else’s freedom, what reason could anyone possibly have for stopping me from doing something? Who gives a shit if I want to be a Scientologist or chew tobacco until my face just is cancer, as long as I don’t try to force anyone else to pay my medical bills when I’m inevitably hospitalized? If a bunch of bros want to get together and stare at the sun for no reason at all, except to prove that they’rereal men and whatnot, and they all agree to do it, you know, let 'em.

Should stoners have the right to smoke marijuana if they want? Why not? Even the KKK - I mean, I think we can all agree they’re raging dickheads, but do people have a right to believe racist shit? Do Evangelical Christians have a right to believe that I’m going to Hell? As long as they don’t hurt anyone else!"

Well, ftr, I don’t agree with John Stuart Mill, and creating a shrine out of a treasonous soldier’s grave *is* hurting someone else. It’s the same as the douchebags who think refusing to be vaccinated against Covid 19 is “my body my choice”. 
 

I will not put it back; it is litter. No different from when I pick up a stray McDonald’s bag and put *that* garbage where it belongs. 

[TateyBonetto]

I'm still trying to figure out why someone thinks it's appropriate to take something that doesn't belong to them off of a grave and then ridicule the author on a public forum. Dubious moral behavior indeed.

[mom31257]

I agree that you shouldn't have removed it. If it had blown off and was somewhere else in the site and you didn't know where it belonged, that would be litter in my opinion. If I left a note on my mother's grave, I would be upset to think someone deliberately took it off, even weeks later. 

[MercyA]

20 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

I'd put it back; it's not yours. 

I do agree with this. I would have taken a picture of it and shared it here with no guilt; it was left in a public place to be seen, after all. But I wouldn't feel right removing it.

Edited January 4, 2022 by MercyA

[Faith-manor]

15 minutes ago, TateyBonetto said:

I'm still trying to figure out why someone thinks it's appropriate to take something that doesn't belong to them off of a grave and then ridicule the author on a public forum. Dubious moral behavior indeed.

The dubious moral behavior was leaving behind litter that is going to blow around in the wind containing messages celebrating treason and slave holding. THAT is the dubious moral behavior!!!!! Good grief.

[WildflowerMom]

I don’t know what it says about me, but halfway through your post my thoughts were, “put it back!  He’s going to haunt you!!”   Get a priest on speed dial. 
😱😆

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I have ancestors who fought in the Civil War(all Union, I assume, as that part of my family has lived in the northeast literally since my g-g-x A lot grandfather Love Brewster stepped off the Mayflower).

Never once has it occurred to me to write them a card in support of the Union cause.  People leave all kinds of things in cemeteries here; toys, beer, letters wrapped in plastic, stuffed animals.  So it would probably be acceptable, but the whole idea of placing a card like that is just weird to me.  

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

This could be fun. Quill could leave secret messages behind for her whenever she takes away a tribute. The this one, Quill. "I was wrong!" Do it up right. Get some aged parchment, write with quill and ink, seal it with wax....just give it some flair. 😁

makes me think of this story.

Man reveals he met his wife in a graveyard after unknowingly leaving flowers for her murderer uncle - and the bizarre story has gone viral (thesun.co.uk)

[Spryte]

The cemeteries around here often have specific rules about what can be left at a grave. A loose card would never fly. That’s just going to blow away and become litter. I don’t think picking it up after it’s become water logged and weathered is anything but a service toward keeping the cemetery clean and neat.

As to the content … yuck.

 

[Spryte]

28 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I don’t know what it says about me, but halfway through your post my thoughts were, “put it back!  He’s going to haunt you!!”   Get a priest on speed dial. 
😱😆

Time to call Sam and Dean!

[gardenmom5]

6 minutes ago, Spryte said:

The cemeteries around here often have specific rules about what can be left at a grave. A loose card would never fly. That’s just going to blow away and become litter. I don’t think picking it up after it’s become water logged and weathered is anything but a service toward keeping the cemetery clean and neat.

As to the content … yuck.

 

If she'd just thrown it away, yes it would have been a service.

The cemeteries around here generally have fairly strict rules about what can be left.  And no, cards aren't usually on the list.  (but at least the mower can go over them.)

[Ceilingfan]

If you think speaking (or writing, or demonstrating, etc.) is tantamount to willfully spreading disease (to the extent vaccine refusal is the latter), I'm not sure what to tell you.

I may not agree with the speech - heck, the cross itself on graves implies pretty directly that I, an atheist, am eternally condemned to torture (and that that is a good thing! because Christians worship the God who set up that system) - at the very least, as an atheist, this is debatable. And yet I don't see anyone stealing crosses off of graves just because they disagree with the message.

Free speech is a good thing. The only way to protect it is to protect speech you don't like.

[SKL]

Again ... slavery wasn't the only issue the southern states had with the northern states in 1860.

It's a part of history.  Why do people want to scrub history?  Who is it hurting if someone's lineal descendant believes in honoring him?  Most likely said soldier never owned slaves.  This sounds like people who believe it's OK to discriminate against Jewish people because Jews killed Jesus.

I also don't appreciate the racially charged, sexist comment in the OP.  There are black people as well as women who support the confederate flag.  And this "holier than thou" stuff makes me tired.

[MercyA]

In Quill's defense, she did title the thread "warning: dubious moral behavior mentioned." 🙂 

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

It's a part of history.  Why do people want to scrub history? 

It's not wanting to scrub history; not at all. It's not wanting to glorify as Good certain parts of it. Flying a flag, in my view, is showing support of a country / region / system of belief. 

[MercyA]

5 hours ago, Ceilingfan said:

If you think speaking (or writing, or demonstrating, etc.) is tantamount to willfully spreading disease (to the extent vaccine refusal is the latter), I'm not sure what to tell you.

I may not agree with the speech - heck, the cross itself on graves implies pretty directly that I, an atheist, am eternally condemned to torture (and that that is a good thing! because Christians worship the God who set up that system) - at the very least, as an atheist, this is debatable. And yet I don't see anyone stealing crosses off of graves just because they disagree with the message.

Free speech is a good thing. The only way to protect it is to protect speech you don't like.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on free speech.

[nm on the rest 😉]

Edited January 4, 2022 by MercyA

[SKL]

I'm not a big fan of separatist movements either.  The most recent big separatist movement in the US was created by northern black people.  Should their children not be allowed to honor the individual members / supporters / followers after they die?

Pretty sure all of our folks have said and done things that wouldn't pass muster in today's society, but most of us still respect and honor our folks.

And our kids will say the same about us someday.

[MercyA]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

The most recent big separatist movement in the US was created by northern black people. 

What are you talking about? I'm not being snarky; I really want to know.

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, mom31257 said:

I agree that you shouldn't have removed it. If it had blown off and was somewhere else in the site and you didn't know where it belonged, that would be litter in my opinion. If I left a note on my mother's grave, I would be upset to think someone deliberately took it off, even weeks later. 

 

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

I do agree with this. I would have taken a picture of it and shared it here with no guilt; it was left in a public place to be seen, after all. But I wouldn't feel right removing it.

Add me to the list of people who think Quill shouldn't have taken the card. 

Following the logic that says it was ok to remove the card, would it have also been ok if someone had placed flowers or a wreath on the grave, and Quill saw fit to remove those as well, because they were a tribute to a Confederate soldier? If removing a heartfelt card from a family member is fine, where do we draw the line? Do we really get to decide how people honor their ancestors?

 

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

The cemeteries around here often have specific rules about what can be left at a grave. A loose card would never fly. That’s just going to blow away and become litter. I don’t think picking it up after it’s become water logged and weathered is anything but a service toward keeping the cemetery clean and neat.

As to the content … yuck.

 

If Quill's intention had been to pick up litter and it turned out to be that card, I would feel differently about it, but she intentionally removed it from this particular grave and kept it, so that's what makes this feel wrong to me. I don't understand the interest in this one specific grave. 

I may strongly disagree with the sentiments expressed in the card, but it's none of my business (or Quill's, either) what a descendant writes in a card to a deceased ancestor. If that woman took the time to buy a card and write a special (to her) sentiment in it, and then drive over to the cemetery and place it on the grave, I think it should have remained there until the cemetery staff removed it. It seems so disrespectful to have removed it.

If it were me, I would put the card back.

[marbel]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

I would have taken a picture of it and shared it here with no guilt;

Why? Not a snarky question - what is the purpose of posting a photo of a note written by someone you don't know, whose views you disagree with? (FWIW I disagree with her views too.) We can maybe agree that the card at that point is litter (damaged by weather) if it's on public property and should have just been tossed in the trash; if private property, it should have been left alone. 

The only reason I can think of for sharing the note - and I hesitated for a long time to post this because I don't think this way at all about you Mercy, or Quill - is to show moral superiority to this person, and maybe engage in a little snark at this unknown person's expense.  So I am baffled. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by marbel

[Farrar]

The person who placed the note did it as a political act.

Quill removed it as a political act.

I know which political act I think was right.

[Drama Llama]

@Quill I read it as the card was by someone who is a descendent if a soldier, not of this particular soldier.  Did I read it wrong? 

[WildflowerMom]

Do not put the card back quill!!   Someone will see her and think she wrote it.    Her employer will have protesters in the morning!   

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

@Quill I read it as the card was by someone who is a descendent if a soldier, not of this particular soldier.  Did I read it wrong? 

That's what I thought, too.   I wonder why this particular grave?   Is he the only soldier there?

[Catwoman]

8 minutes ago, marbel said:

Why? Not a snarky question - what is the purpose of posting a photo of a note written by someone you don't know, whose views you disagree with? (FWIW I disagree with her views too.) We can maybe agree that the card at that point is litter (damaged by weather) if it's on public property and should have just been tossed in the trash; if private property, it should have been left alone. 

The only reason I can think of for sharing the note - and I hesitated for a long time to post this because I don't think this way at all about you Mercy, or Quill - is to show moral superiority to this person, and maybe engage in a little snark at this unknown person's expense.  So I am baffled. 

I'm thinking that Mercy would have been ok with Quill taking a picture of the card (but not removing it from the grave) because Quill had posted about that particular grave in the past, and she might have wanted to share an interesting update about it... but I can definitely see your perspective about it as well. 

Either way, we are all on team Don't Swipe Stuff from Graves. 🙂 

[WildflowerMom]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Either way, we are all on team Don't Swipe Stuff from Graves. 🙂 

@Quill will be tonight, too, when she wakes up and a conf soldier is standing in her bedroom.    You need me to drive up there Q and stand watch?  😆

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, WildflowerMom said:

@Quill will be tonight, too, when she wakes up and a conf soldier is standing in her bedroom.    You need me to drive up there Q and stand watch?  😆

I hope she learns a valuable lesson from all of this... 😉

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, now it has been quite affected by the weather and…well. I took it. I wanted to see what sentiment it had in it.

To me, this does not sound like picking up liter with the intent to throw it in the trash.  It appears like something was taken off a grave to see what was written.

It would be curious what would have happened if the sentiment that was expressed in the card was an opposite view.  Would it be returned to the grave?  

[maize]

Taking something someone else left on a grave because it was meaningful to them, and then posting and mocking that thing in public, feels pretty profoundly disrespectful of other humans to me.

There is value in just letting other people be wrong.

There is lots of grey space here. The gravestone presumably doesn't belong to the person who left the note, and bits of paper are never intended to be permanent. I don't think "stealing" is a fair accusation. 

 

[Guest]

The only reason I can think of for sharing the note - and I hesitated for a long time to post this because I don't think this way at all about you Mercy, or Quill - is to show moral superiority to this person, and maybe engage in a little snark at this unknown person's expense.  So I am baffled. 
 

My feeling is, I want people to know this shit still goes on. This person still (STILL!) thinks confederate soldiers were “amazing” and “bravely fought the tyrants.”  And this person says they are committed to the “ongoing battle to honor” the confederate soldier’s memory. 
 

It’s like - how would I feel if the card was in the American cemetery at Normandy and it were praising the German soldiers and promised to “honor their memory”? How would I feel if the card had a Swastika sticker on the front and back and a picture of Hitler with a thousand people saluting him? 
 

To me it is the same thing. 
 

The purpose of posting it is to say, We still have this. 

 

You could as easily ask why anyone feels the need to put a Christmas card on the grave of a soldier who died in the mid-1800s. It is a symbol to say, “see y’all? We still believe in their cause.” 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

To me, this does not sound like picking up liter with the intent to throw it in the trash.  It appears like something was taken off a grave to see what was written.

It would be curious what would have happened if the sentiment that was expressed in the card was an opposite view.  Would it be returned to the grave?  

Heck no I wouldn’t put it back there if the sentiment were different. 
 

But I stole a piece of paper. I do own that. I wasn’t (merely) picking up litter, even if ultimately that is what I did. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

@Quill will be tonight, too, when she wakes up and a conf soldier is standing in her bedroom.    You need me to drive up there Q and stand watch?  😆

It’s okay. I have a Ghost German Shepherd there as well.

[livetoread]

36 minutes ago, marbel said:

Why? Not a snarky question - what is the purpose of posting a photo of a note written by someone you don't know, whose views you disagree with? (FWIW I disagree with her views too.) We can maybe agree that the card at that point is litter (damaged by weather) if it's on public property and should have just been tossed in the trash; if private property, it should have been left alone. 

The only reason I can think of for sharing the note - and I hesitated for a long time to post this because I don't think this way at all about you Mercy, or Quill - is to show moral superiority to this person, and maybe engage in a little snark at this unknown person's expense.  So I am baffled. 

I see it as a way of affirming social norms. We do stuff like that all the time in our groups and communities. As social creatures, we are always working on what it means to be part of a group, and in this case, what it means to be a US citizen. What are our norms around slavery and the treatment of black people? Some people think those norms are obvious and settled (slavery was bad, black people should be and are treated fine, generally, and there is little chance of back sliding on that) and some people think those norms are far from settled (slavery was bad, black people should be treated fine but often aren't, and there is a big chance of back sliding on that). Those of us who don't think it is obvious and settled in this country try and keep affirming those norms because they aren't stable and they aren't agreed upon by enough people to make sure black people are treated well. 

It's not about moral superiority so much as it is pointing out that enough people still think this way to influence our norms and as a result, black people still aren't treated well enough. It's not that this individual person is wrong (though she is), it's that she represents enough others to be a problem and we, collectively, need to know that and publicly stand against it.

None of this has to do with the moral rightness of removing the card - it's about posting the card in a public forum.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

@Quill I read it as the card was by someone who is a descendent if a soldier, not of this particular soldier.  Did I read it wrong? 

Most likely *A* soldier, not *this* soldier. This soldier may not even have any descendants cause he died. 
 

The outside of the envelope has two stickers that say, “Descendant of a confederate soldier” 

[MEmama]

I mean, we already know some people believe in the honor or whatever of the Confederacy, also of Nazi Germany. America is on the cusp of a truly fascist takeover and some 30-40% of Americans are okay with that because authoritarianism IS their vision for this country. They argue it’s written into our constitution. We literally almost lost our democracy just a year ago; I have zero doubt this experiment is all but over at this point.

Anyone interested in delving into American history might enjoy Colin Woodard's Union: The Struggle to Forge the Story of United States Nationhood. It’s a timely book both in terms of this discussion and our current political division. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by MEmama

[livetoread]

I just want to add that maybe this boils down to those who see the note writer's views as unlikely to cause any harm (whether because they are in such a minority as to be toothless or because they aren't that bad to begin with) and therefore safely ignored, and those who don't.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, livetoread said:

I just want to add that maybe this boils down to those who see the note writer's views as unlikely to cause any harm (whether because they are in such a minority as to be toothless or because they aren't that bad to begin with) and therefore safely ignored, and those who don't.

I couldn’t have said it better.

[marbel]

26 minutes ago, Quill said:

My feeling is, I want people to know this shit still goes on.

See, my feeling is, people here know that. This group does not need to be educated on this fact; people here talk about stuff like this often. I'd be quite stunned to see anyone here post "What?! I thought that feeling died with the Confederacy?!" 

I think, if you really want to educate people, it would do more to post it on your town Next Door group, or town Facebook page. I mean, I'm not suggesting you do that, but it would probably reach the right audience -- people who may be oblivious that this shit still goes on, right in their own city.

Edited January 4, 2022 by marbel