S/o Daniel fast

[regentrude]

The Daniel fast came up in the healthy eating thread, and spiritual reasons were mentioned. I am curious how that works. As I understand fasting for spiritual reasons,  one important aspect is the discipline to deprive oneself of something. (correct me if I'm wrong,  could be totally off base here). Is that what happens?

Now, would it have any spiritual effect for a person who normally eats like that anyway? ( besides the obvious health effects of being mindful what they put in their bodies)

Thanks for weighing in. I am really curious. 

[BlsdMama]

My second daughter converted to Greek Orthodox. They do significant fasting. Fasting, as far as I am aware, threefold - sacrificial, keeps one mindful and praying, and historical. I add historical because, for example, one thing they fast from is olive oil. It is not a significant sacrifice in 2021, but certainly would have been historically.

[Katy]

I don’t have a full understanding of the spiritual benefits of fasting, though I’ve heard people say sacrifice brings power. But I knew a man who felt like God was telling him to do a Daniel fast, not just for lent but from January through Easter. So he did. He was already quite thin. He started having vision problems towards the end, went for a check, and discovered he had an aggressive form of brain cancer, some kind that is affected by diet. The oncologist said the fast may have saved his life by slowing the rate of the cancer growth. Apparently by the time it is diagnosed it’s usually stage 4, but his was stage 2 and was cured in months. The only affect was permanent vision loss on one side. 

[J-rap]

My understanding is that the purpose of fasting (from a Christian POV) is to rightly prioritize our life.  Our bodies should obey our brains, and our brains should obey our spirit (God).  Otherwise, our bodies, wants and desires become our boss.  I think we tend to think of fasting as involving food, but it can be many other things too -- including fasting from social media, for example.

I'd never heard of the Daniel fast, and I guess something like that could be helpful because you're following something very specific that's already laid out for you.  I think a danger of it might be that it becomes kind of a Scriptural fad that's more about following the rules.

[Lecka]

I think it can also be about being part of a group, which I think can be very spiritually meaningful.  It can mean being part of a community with the same spiritual practices.  

[Anne]

I really like your question, @regentrude.   I’ve definitely wrestled with this one.  If I’m already fasting for physical/health (selfish?) reasons, how does that affect fasting I might do for spiritual reasons?   I have found that when I want to fast for spiritual reasons, I have to find non-food things to fast from - otherwise I feel as if my motives are so mixed that my fast winds up feeling self-focused rather than God-focused.

Anne

[marbel]

I think if a person is already eating in a way that happens to be the same as a specific fast diet, there are not going to be spiritual benefits.  

The purpose of a fast (as I've always understood it) is to draw closer to God. Put very simply, when a person is hungry, or wants the item(s) they are fasting from, they pray rather than indulge. 

@Anne I don't think fasting for physical/health reasons is selfish, but I agree with you about "mixed motives." When I have fasted from food, I have found that my main motivation really has been to lose weight, not to grow closer to God via my sacrifice. 

I don't know anything about the Daniel fast. I have seen instructions for other types of fast (don't remember names) that were so complicated, it seemed impossible that there could be any spiritual benefit as so much time/thought had to be spent on figuring out the foods. 

[Lori D.]

@regentrude, this pdf is a quick read of 3 short articles by 3 different authors with bullet points of the purposes of Christian spiritual fasting.

NOTE: I am NOT thrilled with the first article (by Rick Warren), as he is a promoter of the "Daniel Fast", which is playing off of chapter 1 in the Biblical book of Daniel by using food restriction as a form of "fasting for diet/weight loss", rather than focusing on what Biblical fasting is really about.

The "Daniel Fast" in terms of this current trend is either a vegetable & water only diet for 2-3 weeks, or an "avoid meat, wine, rich foods" diet as a "fast". In chapter 1 of Daniel, he was not fasting, but eating a vegetarian diet as a way of setting himself apart as a Jew from the rich indulgent eating of the Babylonians.

In the book of Daniel chapter 9, Daniel hears the prophecy of Jeremiah about the coming 70-year desolation of Jerusalem, and, appalled, Daniel "turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes [signs of mourning]..." Daniel further prays a corporate prayer of confession of wrong-doing, including himself in that confession of sin, for God's mercy and forgiveness for his people. As a result of the prayer and fasting, Daniel receives a revelation of God's future plans.

So, really the "Daniel Fast" should be about personal and corporate confession of wrong doing, and repentance and turning away from the wrong doing. Not about restricted diet and weight loss.
______________

The main take away is that fasting is setting aside eating for a period of time in order to devote close attention to God. It is meant as a way to focus on hearing what God has to say to the one who is fasting, and to help the one who is fasting focus on relationship with God. While the fasting is an intentional act of commitment, it is NOT meant as a method to "strong-arm" God into giving you what you may be petitioning for.

Christian spiritual fasting is meant as a preparation for receiving guidance, a specific directive, or insight from God. It is also a time for confession (spiritual cleansing, as the body physically "cleanses" through fasting), and for praise and worship of God ("feasting spiritually" on communing with God, while the body fasts). The motive for Christian spiritual fasting is to glorify God and know him better (so, God-focused), rather than to seek a personal experience (which is self-focused).

Many years ago, Richard Foster wrote a wonderful book, Celebration of Discipline, in which he discussed the value, meaning, and importance of the spiritual disciples that are an embedded part of the Scriptures, and are meant to be central to the daily lives of Christians:

inward disciplines = meditation; prayer; fasting; study
outward disciplines = simplicity; solitude; submission; service
corporate disciplines = confession; worship; guidance; celebration

I would strongly encourage anyone wanting to know more about Biblical spiritual fasting to take a look at the chapter from Celebration of Discipline, as it is MUCH more spiritually focused than the Daniel Fast appears to be.

Hope that helps.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, marbel said:

I think if a person is already eating in a way that happens to be the same as a specific fast diet, there are not going to be spiritual benefits.  

That is what I thought, that there must be an element of deprivation for it to work.

The Daniel Fast sounds simply like a very clean vegan diet (the one hard thing for me would be the caffeine which I need to keep my migraines in check.)  But if I vowed to forgo alcohol and animal products for Lent, that would feel like cheating because it would be so easy that I can't believe it would have any effect.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by regentrude

[Lori D.]

32 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is what I thought, that there must be an element of deprivation for it to work...

I would suggest that "deprivation" is not quite accurate.

Rather, spiritual fasting is a conscious setting aside focusing on one thing (specifically eating and food acquisition / prep / clean-up -- or certain foods if it is a partial fast -- OR, non-food things, such as social media, etc.), in order to consciously devote time and attention to something else (specifically, relationship with God).

Also, while I'm sure you didn't mean it that way 😉 -- "for it to work" sounds like the motivation is "I can input the coin of fasting into the dispenser of God and he will output to me something spiritual." When really, fasting is an emptying of self, physically and also spiritually (by humbling oneself), in order to be prepared to receive whatever God desires to fill the faster with. 😉 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I would suggest that "deprivation" is not quite accurate.

Rather, spiritual fasting is a conscious setting aside focusing on one thing (specifically eating and food acquisition/prep/clean-up -- or certain foods if it is a partial fast), in order to consciously devote time and attention to something else (specifically, relationship with God).

But does fasting not always include the aspect of depriving oneself of something (food, drink) on desires? Isn't this discipline a core instrument? If one doesn't care to eat (at all, or this specific thing), how could that be construed as "fasting"?
(I get that there is also prayer and mindfulness etc, but all "fasting" has, in some way, to do with restricting certain foods/beverages, and that is the aspect I was wondering about)

 

Quote

Also, while I'm sure you didn't mean it that way 😉 -- "for it to work" sounds like the motivation is "I can input the coin of fasting into the dispenser of God and he will output to me something spiritual." When really, fasting is an emptying of self, physically and also spiritually (by humbling oneself), in order to be prepared to receive whatever God desires to fill the faster with. 😉 

yes, of course! I was using "work" as short-hand for "possibly having any psychological/spiritual effect". I do not believe in the Christian God, but I do believe that spiritual practices like fasting can be very beneficial irrespective or religious affiliation. But I feel that "giving up" a thing I don't actually crave will not fulfill this function and won't allow me to enter that space. 

[Lecka]

I think some people think that state is reached just by fasting, and it doesn’t matter. I think it’s a kind of asceticism. 
 

Like — David Petraeus used to be an example of this.  He thought (in my understanding) that just the act of fasting, doing a lot of exercise, etc, made him more clear-headed.  
 

I don’t think it was a spiritual discipline for him, but I think spiritual fasting can be expected (by some) to have those effects, but not because of being deprived of something, as much as just entering that state.

 

Its been a while but this used to be something talked about in profiles of David Petraeus.  

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

But does fasting not always include the aspect of depriving oneself of something (food, drink) on desires? Isn't this discipline a core instrument? If one doesn't care to eat (at all, or this specific thing), how could that be construed as "fasting"?
(I get that there is also prayer and mindfulness etc, but all "fasting" has, in some way, to do with restricting certain foods/beverages, and that is the aspect I was wondering about)...

In Christian spiritual fasting, the fasting is intentional setting aside for a time in order to be God-focused. That's not about sacrifice or depriving or restricting. It is about a positive choice of setting aside, for a time, one good (food usually) to experience another good (deeper relationship with God).

It strikes me that depriving or restricting is about self-sacrifice... Which tends to be more focused on the act and how it makes me feel: I have denied myself something, therefore I have experienced discipline and improved my self-control, which leads to spiritual insight or improvement.

But, I don't have any experience with non-Christian spiritual practices, so that is just my impression.

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

...But I feel that "giving up" a thing I don't actually crave will not fulfill this function and won't allow me to enter that space. 

Gently, that sounds like a self-imposed requirement. (In Christianity, that would be considered "legalistic" -- the spiritual practice must conform to and be constrained by the individual's certain interpretations of how to do the practice, or be controlled by self-dictated boundaries.)

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

...I do not believe in the Christian God, but I do believe that spiritual practices like fasting can be very beneficial irrespective or religious affiliation...

I can only speak about fasting from the Christian perspective, in which fasting is God-focused and about relationship with the living God. 

Christian spiritual fasting is a setting aside focus and attention on the physical thing (usually food), in order to focus on the spiritual thing (relationship with God).

Sort of like how a person may intentionally and consciously turn off and set aside their cell phone (fast from it), in order to give their complete attention to, and deepen their relationship with, the person in front of them.

That is a willing choice to set aside (fast), for the positive purpose of giving yourself (humbling yourself) to another. Very much what a Christian does in fasting to give their whole self in focused attention to God. The above cell phone example is only "depriving" or "giving up" the cell phone if the person is not really wanting to fully engage with the person before them, or is addicted to their cell phone use, or if there is something going on via the cell phone that needs to take precedence over the person before them, or other reason...

Knowing that I am fasting (or praying, or mediating -- any of the spiritual disciplines), specifically to draw closer to God, provides freedom from requirements. It's not up to me to "make" something happen, or have to come up with something I crave to be a sacrifice acceptable to God in order to enter his presence, or to receive spiritually. God (through Christ) has already provided the sacrifice needed for me to have relationship with him, and he freely gives to those who seek him.

However, I can sort of see how, if the fasting is done as a general spiritual discipline without a belief in a God, that it might feel more necessary that the fasting needs to be more of a sacrifice of something especially desired.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Lori D.

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

In Christian spiritual fasting, the fasting is intentional setting aside for a time in order to be God-focused. That's not about sacrifice or depriving or restricting. It is about a positive choice of setting aside, for a time, one good (food usually) to experience another good (deeper relationship with God).

Interesting perspective that doesn't fit what I heard from folks who use fasting. The Biblical examples I am familiar with refer to abstaining from food - how is that not about sacrifice/depriving/restricting? 
Why do Christians choose to give up meat, or alcohol, or sweets for a Lenten fast, and not, say, carrots or apples? Doesn't it have to be a desired thing? 

Quote

Christian spiritual fasting is a setting aside focus and attention on the physical thing (usually food), in order to focus on the spiritual thing (relationship with God).

I was always under the impression that the aspect of sacrifice is necessary. Otherwise, how would it be different than simply praying without the accompanying food changes? If anything, wouldn't altering one's diet create more of a focus on food than simply not paying attention to what one eats? 

Sorry if these seem like stupid questions, but your explanation is really puzzling to me.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

Lori D, I mostly agree with your excellent descriptions, but I think that the Daniel fast originally was rooted in the fact that Daniel wanted to continue to keep the dietary rules that the Jewish people were supposed to follow.  But the conquering king wanted the favored captive Jews to be fed extremely well by the foreign standards.  Daniel asked for a trial of the Jewish dietary rules, which locally meant that he had to abstain from meat because it could not be slaughtered properly to keep those rules there.  God miraculously maintained his and his companions' thriving without the special foods (rich meats) that the king wanted to have them fed with.  This was a fraught request in several ways.  First, it could be construed as insulting to the king to reject this offered favor.  Second, it would be surprising if vegetables alone would result in the kind of thriving that the king's diet could do.  And third, those who were responsible for the delivery of the king's special foods would also be liable to the king if they were not partaken.  

So in the original book of Daniel, the focus was on Daniel essentially 'keeping kosher' (although that term is anachronistic in context) under challenging circumstances, and God providing for him despite the great difficulty of this.

There IS deeper fasting in Daniel 9, but that is separate.  The 'Daniel fast' in Daniel 1 is all about sticking with God's rules even in captivity and even when it is dangerous to do so.  The current 'popular' use of the term is really novel and not true to the Biblical text or emphasis, as you note.

  Here is the story verbatim in the English Standard Version translation, which I understand to be an accurate one:

Daniel 1:  "In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. ² And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god. ³ Then the king commanded Ashpenaz, his chief eunuch, to bring some of the people of Israel, both of the royal family^[a] and of the nobility, ⁴ youths without blemish, of good appearance and skillful in all wisdom, endowed with knowledge, understanding learning, and competent to stand in the king's palace, and to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans. ⁵ The king assigned them a daily portion of the food that the king ate, and of the wine that he drank. They were to be educated for three years, and at the end of that time they were to stand before the king. ⁶ Among these were Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah of the tribe of Judah. ⁷ And the chief of the eunuchs gave them names: Daniel he called Belteshazzar, Hananiah he called Shadrach, Mishael he called Meshach, and Azariah he called Abednego.

⁸ But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the king's food, or with the wine that he drank. Therefore he asked the chief of the eunuchs to allow him not to defile himself. ⁹ And God gave Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the chief of the eunuchs, ¹⁰ and the chief of the eunuchs said to Daniel, “I fear my lord the king, who assigned your food and your drink; for why should he see that you were in worse condition than the youths who are of your own age? So you would endanger my head with the king.” ¹¹ Then Daniel said to the steward whom the chief of the eunuchs had assigned over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, ¹² “Test your servants for ten days; let us be given vegetables to eat and water to drink. ¹³ Then let our appearance and the appearance of the youths who eat the king's food be observed by you, and deal with your servants according to what you see.” ¹⁴ So he listened to them in this matter, and tested them for ten days. ¹⁵ At the end of ten days it was seen that they were better in appearance and fatter in flesh than all the youths who ate the king's food. ¹⁶ So the steward took away their food and the wine they were to drink, and gave them vegetables.

¹⁷ As for these four youths, God gave them learning and skill in all literature and wisdom, and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams. ¹⁸ At the end of the time, when the king had commanded that they should be brought in, the chief of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar. ¹⁹ And the king spoke with them, and among all of them none was found like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. Therefore they stood before the king. ²⁰ And in every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters that were in all his kingdom."

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Scripture silent about the details of fasting except that it should be done without drawing attention to it and that it's expected. Christians fast for different reasons in different ways:

1. Practicing self-denial and addressing any spiritual attitude problems that arise because of it.
2. Practicing mastering self-discipline.
3. As an act of repentance and sorrow over their sin along with confession.
4. Making oneself experientially aware of and more empathetic to the involuntary privation the poor are experiencing and many will give to charities who feed the hungry in conjunction with their time of fasting. Some calculate the cost of the meals they're skipping and donate that amount in addition to their regular giving to the poor. 
5. Practicing complete focus on the spiritual by ignoring the physical as much as possible.  Usually other ways of ignoring the physical are included like some sort of temporary isolation/solitude from other practical things and some sort of meditation on scripture or intensive prayer is involved.

Some branches of Christianity fast communally.  I haven't been on any of those branches, so I'm not qualified to speak to their motives and methods.

[The Governess]

I’m not much of a faster, but I’ve always thought that, spiritually, the main idea of fasting is to decrease our dependence on the material and replace those dependencies with a deeper dependence on God. So, the things that are cut out are those things that we feel we “need” or rely on for some sort of sustenance/coping with life - protein for some, sugar or alcohol for others, comfort food (usually higher in fat or sugar), even things like social media, etc., with the idea that we will then need to rely on God for our strength, our energy, our peace, our validation. 
 

I guess in that way I’d consider it a sort of purposeful deprivation. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I forgot to mention that the idea of the Daniel fast to lose weight promoted by certain Evangelicals is utter nonsense.  In the biblical account Daniel gained weight on his diet. It's another reason I left the Evangelical mess-too many of them are fast and loose with scripture to suit their own purposes.

[GracieJane]

Fasting in the Bible occurs in two forms: corporate (ecclesiastical fasts for repentance, mourning, etc.) and private. Assuming you are speaking of a personal fast, it helps to know that Jesus speaks of fasting in the middle of a list of private acts, things that are done in secret like praying (“in your room, shut the door”) and giving (“don’t let your right hand know what your left one is giving”). His prescription is to keep your fast secret, lest your motives be muddied by the approval of others. Fasting is incredibly undervalued in Christianity, but I believe it’s because the first rule is completely neglected: don’t talk about it. If you give up something for lent, don’t tell anyone. It will be a much greater fast with better rewards.

Edited December 29, 2021 by GracieJane

[fairfarmhand]

3 hours ago, lovelearnandlive said:

I’m not much of a faster, but I’ve always thought that, spiritually, the main idea of fasting is to decrease our dependence on the material and replace those dependencies with a deeper dependence on God. So, the things that are cut out are those things that we feel we “need” or rely on for some sort of sustenance/coping with life - protein for some, sugar or alcohol for others, comfort food (usually higher in fat or sugar), even things like social media, etc., with the idea that we will then need to rely on God for our strength, our energy, our peace, our validation. 
 

I guess in that way I’d consider it a sort of purposeful deprivation. 

I"m the one who brought up the Daniel fast in the other thread.

The above is what I am seeking after. I find myself finding more pleasure and "support" in my food than I am comfortable with. So my hope is that in doing a focused fast that removes many of my pleasure foods, I will learn to turn to God for those needs. 

I think there are a wide variety of traditions for fasting and many reasons that people do it. This is where *I* am coming from in this season. There have been times when I have fasted because of a particular burden. 

This one is more of a renewal of my spirit, I hope.

My biggest fear during this time is that my motives will be twisted by vanity. The desire of my heart is not to fast with a heart of "maybe I will lose weight" but instead to renew myself spiritually and mentally. But my motives can be so murky even to myself and I struggle to keep body image issues out of this.

[Resilient]

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus talks about three practices, using the word "when" (not "if")

• When you pray
• When you fast
• When you give alms

It seems like they go together, as practices that let us know God better by obedience to His commands.   

I'm not bright enough to go into more depth--but if it is of interest, this is a small, very practical book about these three practices/commandments:  Toolkit for Spiritual Growth. The Amazon description talks a lot about this being interesting "for Orthodox Christians" but I found it helpful for anyone who wants to take Christ and His instructions seriously.