I still don’t really understand “gaslighting”

[Slache]

13 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

We have all these fancy names for these things but they aren’t new concepts at all.  People have been managing (or mismanaging) relationships in these ways for centuries.

See Aesop's Fables. All the same stuff.

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Well that’s a sad sac of crap friends you know then. It would make me cry to have anyone speak my friends like that.   And then it would make me furious. I had a hard time watching even without that part.

 

In general, most people have one of two reactions to observing ( or suspecting) abuse. 

1. Don't want to get drawn into the drama. Ignore it. "Not my business".

2. Feel angry about it, but focus the anger on the victim for being in the situation in the first place. "Why won't she leave!!" And "How on earth did she let herself get in this situation?"

Idk. I've heard and experienced worse than that video; nobody's wept over it. Abuse is an irritant for most bystanders. 

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

In general, most people have one of two reactions to observing ( or suspecting) abuse. 

1. Don't want to get drawn into the drama. Ignore it. "Not my business".

2. Feel angry about it, but focus the anger on the victim for being in the situation in the first place. "Why won't she leave!!" And "How on earth did she let herself get in this situation?"

Idk. I've heard and experienced worse than that video; nobody's wept over it. Abuse is an irritant for most bystanders. 

I have absolutely personally experienced  way worse than that video.  And I agree “most people” can be self-centered ignorant unhelpful aholes.

That’s why friends shouldn’t be “most people”. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

I have absolutely personally experienced  way worse than that video.  And I agree “most people” can be self-centered ignorant unhelpful aholes.

That’s why friends shouldn’t be “most people”. 

Idk. I honestly don't think anyone wants to hear about abuse, friend or not.

I do have a couple of friends I could have told about it; they wouldn't have cried, they'd just have tried to problem solve.

That's actually the third most common way people react.

Of course, they often don't realize that if the problem could be easily solved, the abused person would have solved it already. 

And of course, abused people are hard to.love, because they are rather broken. And often aren't gratifying to rescue. 

It's my experience that it's better to rely on oneself to do one's best, try to enjoy and be there for one's friends, rather than letting abuse drain your entire life,  and when safe, pay a professional to help.

Because paid professionals are the only people with the stomach for recounts of abuse. Sometimes other people with abuse histories; not always. 

Most colleague- friends would hang up the phone and talk themselves out of getting involved. 

I'm sure there are some very brave people who will allow themselves to be affected emotionally by a friend's experience of being abused.

It's hard for those people though - what can they do? Be distressed and do what? 

 

 

 

[Murphy101]

27 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Idk. I honestly don't think anyone wants to hear about abuse, friend or not.

I do have a couple of friends I could have told about it; they wouldn't have cried, they'd just have tried to problem solve.

That's actually the third most common way people react.

Of course, they often don't realize that if the problem could be easily solved, the abused person would have solved it already. 

And of course, abused people are hard to.love, because they are rather broken. And often aren't gratifying to rescue. 
 

sigh.  I am totally a fixer personality who struggles not to fix people bc broken people are not like broken things.

27 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's my experience that it's better to rely on oneself to do one's best, try to enjoy and be there for one's friends, rather than letting abuse drain your entire life,  and when safe, pay a professional to help.

Because paid professionals are the only people with the stomach for recounts of abuse. Sometimes other people with abuse histories; not always. 
 

 It shouldn’t be an either or. Friends don’t replace professionals. Professionals don’t replace friends.

We do have to rely on ourselves bc we are indeed the only person we can change.  Good friends help make it a good change by being supportive and helpful. 

27 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Most colleague- friends would hang up the phone and talk themselves out of getting involved. 

ack. Yeah. Work associates are often never the genuine friends people try to think they are. Awkward. 

27 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm sure there are some very brave people who will allow themselves to be affected emotionally by a friend's experience of being abused.

It's hard for those people though - what can they do? Be distressed and do what? 

Well. Let’s think about it. What do you think would have been genuinely helpful? 

I or my friends have:

Given a safe place to stay and options to help sustain the abused if they choose to leave.

Sought out recommendations for professional help. (therapist, lawyers, etc) Maybe even paid for it.

Took the kids more often so they could get a break from the house tension

Take friend on a vacation without spouse/kids

Keep their mouths shut about things said in confidence instead of spreading juicy gossip

Not judging how they ended up that way or how they cope with it as long as it’s not also abusive.

Praying for them bc they probably don’t feel like praying for themselves.

Most of these efforts were prolong investments of a hard 2-5 years.  Because close genuine friends do that. 

ETA:  I don’t want anyone to feel bad if they don’t have these friends.  I have not always had them. I have not always appreciated them as I should have when I did.  I have not always been a very good one either.

But community matters. Friends matter.  They can make all the difference in the world.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Murphy101

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Well. Let’s think about it. What do you think would have been genuinely helpful? 

I or my friends have:

Given a safe place to stay and options to help sustain the abused if they choose to leave.

Sought out recommendations for professional help. (therapist, lawyers, etc) Maybe even paid for it.

Took the kids more often so they could get a break from the house tension

Take friend on a vacation without spouse/kids

Keep their mouths shut about things said in confidence instead of spreading juicy gossip

Not judging how they ended up that way or how they cope with it as long as it’s not also abusive.

Praying for them bc they probably don’t feel like praying for themselves.

Most of these efforts were prolong investments of a hard 2-5 years.  Because close genuine friends do that. 

It was very kind of you to do these things. Your friend/s were very lucky to have such kindness in their lives.

The only thing that would have helped me was total reform of Family Court, such that a person who had threatened to permanently deprive me of my children, would be denied joint custody. 

In the absence, I was stuck for the duration, and no point moaning about it. Buck up, help others, pick up the pieces later. 

What helps now is the opportunity to talk about it, but one doesn't want to be a bore. And abuse, besides anything else, is very tedious. 

Also, in what context would one bring it up? Over coffee?! It sort of makes me laugh imagining actually answering 'how's things?' with something real that I won't write out here. 

Anyway, now I understand why your post seemed  mad with me - I didn't mean to suggest that kind and caring people like yourself who help abused people don't exist. Just that you're not super common, and that's because it's really hard to help abused people. 

 

 

[pitterpatter]

To me, it's encouraging/allowing someone to believe a false reality. It's a means to a desired end for the gas lighter. It's very effective too. Once you've experienced it (particularly for an extended period of time), you never know which way is up. It's mentally devastating.

[cintinative]

Sort of off-topic but one thing I have noticed as I have talked with my friends who have abusive ex-spouses is that the "general" assumption is that when the marriage ends, the abuse also ends. Clearly this isn't the case. The abusers don't stop being who they are just because they are divorced, and really I have seen more escalations (in the small population size I am aware of).  It's super isolating to be in an abusive marriage to begin with, but even when you divorce, it is still isolating because when people ask how you are, they expect that your life is "so much better" now, and it is not acceptable to tell them that life still stinks. If there are kids involved, often there is still interaction with that abusive spouse, and also the attempted manipulation of the kids against you, etc.  The abuse just continues in whatever way it can.

I think in general we just struggle with long term suffering in those we know. We don't know what to do with it. It's uncomfortable. We want them to be better. We want the situation to be better. But that is not always how life works.  Letting go our need for things to be fixed is a first step to really listening to that person.

 

[Murphy101]

9 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Also, in what context would one bring it up? Over coffee?! It sort of makes me laugh imagining actually answering 'how's things?' with something real that I won't write out here. 

Anyway, now I understand why your post seemed  mad with me - I didn't mean to suggest that kind and caring people like yourself who help abused people don't exist. Just that you're not super common, and that's because it's really hard to help abused people. 

Firstly. I am mad when people are treated that way.  Horrible humans *should* invite righteous anger.   Otherwise I wasn’t mad.  It’s genuinely sad to know how many people have no one they can turn to, or more accurately “think” they have no one to turn to.

Secondly, completely agree about family court and that helping people can be really hard. 

Lastly, I guess I’m confused about “when would it come up”. I called my friend at 4 am bawling. She was at my door with my other friends by 4:20.

I have coffee dates with my friends at least once a week. We talk about just about anything and everything.  Problems. Joys. Recipes. Marriage problems. Kid problems. Perimenopause. Whatever. Nothing has to “come up”. It can just be brought up. Again.  That’s the difference between friends and “most people”.

[pitterpatter]

Gas lighters are also amazing liers. When you question things, they come up with wonderfully convincing lies on the fly. Even when you think you have come up with every possible answer ahead of time that they could give when you question an inconsistency, they come up with something completely plausible (seemingly so anyway) that you never considered as an option. Their answer sounds so wonderful compared with everything you came up with that you are relieved that you were "wrong" and accept the lie fairly willfully. Things that don't ring true but you can't figure out why because you're missing major pieces of the puzzle are buried in a mental storage box. After the gig is up and you have more puzzle pieces, those things come flying out over time...one sucker punch after another.

Edited December 28, 2021 by pitterpatter

[Indigo Blue]

1 hour ago, pitterpatter said:

Gas lighters are also amazing liers. When you question things, they come up with wonderfully convincing lies on the fly. Even when you think you have come up with every possible answer ahead of time that they could give when you question an inconsistency, they come up with something completely plausible (seemingly so anyway) that you never considered as an option. Their answer sounds so wonderful compared with everything you came up with that you are relieved that you were "wrong" and accept the lie fairly willfully. Things that don't ring true but you can't figure out why because you're missing major pieces of the puzzle are buried in a mental storage box. After the gig is up and you have more puzzle pieces, those things come flying out over time...one sucker punch after another.

Sigh. So true.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Sort of off-topic but one thing I have noticed as I have talked with my friends who have abusive ex-spouses is that the "general" assumption is that when the marriage ends, the abuse also ends. Clearly this isn't the case. The abusers don't stop being who they are just because they are divorced, and really I have seen more escalations (in the small population size I am aware of).

 

Indeed, it's well-known among those who bother to know these things that the most dangerous time to be in an abusive relationship is in the first year after you leave. Physically abusive partners are more likely to kill you, those who haven't previously escalated to physical violence are more likely to assault you (or kill you), they're all more likely to start stalking, trying to ruin your reputation, etc etc etc.

If you want to know why people don't leave, and psychological answers don't satisfy, that's a big one. People don't want to die!

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Indeed, it's well-known among those who bother to know these things that the most dangerous time to be in an abusive relationship is in the first year after you leave. Physically abusive partners are more likely to kill you, those who haven't previously escalated to physical violence are more likely to assault you (or kill you), they're all more likely to start stalking, trying to ruin your reputation, etc etc etc.

If you want to know why people don't leave, and psychological answers don't satisfy, that's a big one. People don't want to die!

No joke. And that’s when they don’t even have kids.  It’s extremely hard to leave an abusive relationship knowing it may very well mean your children have to stay in it without you.  Even if they only have to stay in it every other weekend. What kind of mom wants her kids to “only” be at high risk of emotional and or physical or possibly, god forbid, sexual abused even “just” every other weekend?  Not me. 

And when those desperate women rarely end up killing their abuser everyone is all oh she coulda just left. Yeah. Except leaving doesn’t end it for most victims and it ends it for their kids even less often. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Firstly. I am mad when people are treated that way.  Horrible humans *should* invite righteous anger.   Otherwise I wasn’t mad.  It’s genuinely sad to know how many people have no one they can turn to, or more accurately “think” they have no one to turn to.

Secondly, completely agree about family court and that helping people can be really hard. 

Lastly, I guess I’m confused about “when would it come up”. I called my friend at 4 am bawling. She was at my door with my other friends by 4:20.

I have coffee dates with my friends at least once a week. We talk about just about anything and everything.  Problems. Joys. Recipes. Marriage problems. Kid problems. Perimenopause. Whatever. Nothing has to “come up”. It can just be brought up. Again.  That’s the difference between friends and “most people”.

Abuse is shameful. It's shameful to be the person stuck in a whirlwind of psychological manipulation and other forms of cruelty. There are aspects of abuse it can be almost impossible to explain. And other aspects that are unspeakable, because they are almost entirely unacknowledged in the culture. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

15 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Indeed, it's well-known among those who bother to know these things that the most dangerous time to be in an abusive relationship is in the first year after you leave. Physically abusive partners are more likely to kill you, those who haven't previously escalated to physical violence are more likely to assault you (or kill you), they're all more likely to start stalking, trying to ruin your reputation, etc etc etc.

If you want to know why people don't leave, and psychological answers don't satisfy, that's a big one. People don't want to die!

Or they don't want their kids to die.

It actually only takes one of these threats to keep you in line for a long time, just taking the other forms of abuse, including gaslighting, like a champ. Because no-one can ever afford to think it was an empty threat - the potential price of doing that is too high. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Idk. I honestly don't think anyone wants to hear about abuse, friend or not.

I do have a couple of friends I could have told about it; they wouldn't have cried, they'd just have tried to problem solve.

That's actually the third most common way people react.

Of course, they often don't realize that if the problem could be easily solved, the abused person would have solved it already. 

And of course, abused people are hard to.love, because they are rather broken. And often aren't gratifying to rescue. 

It's my experience that it's better to rely on oneself to do one's best, try to enjoy and be there for one's friends, rather than letting abuse drain your entire life,  and when safe, pay a professional to help.

Because paid professionals are the only people with the stomach for recounts of abuse. Sometimes other people with abuse histories; not always. 

Most colleague- friends would hang up the phone and talk themselves out of getting involved. 

I'm sure there are some very brave people who will allow themselves to be affected emotionally by a friend's experience of being abused.

It's hard for those people though - what can they do? Be distressed and do what? 

 

 

 

ITA, but I think this about grief. Honestly, grief became a lot more manageable for me when I leaned into the thought that Nobody Cares. That I could pay a therapist, say anything and not have it held against me, cry, rage, say I wish I would stop waking up in the morning, say things like how unhelpful my mother was, and really just say whatever ugly thing my “friends” didn’t really want to hear. 
 

I do think I have some better friends now than I did when all this was super relevant, but for all I know, if I went through some other ugly awful thing, maybe I would find most of these friends don’t really care that much either. 
 

It’s hard to love people with big wounds. They aren’t that fun at a party. 

[Murphy101]

12 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Abuse is shameful. It's shameful to be the person stuck in a whirlwind of psychological manipulation and other forms of cruelty. There are aspects of abuse it can be almost impossible to explain. And other aspects that are unspeakable, because they are almost entirely unacknowledged in the culture. 

I know. Shame is very isolating.

Again. Good friends can make a difference. Everyone should have someone they can discuss the unspeakable things with. At least a professional. And hopefully a true friend.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Quill said:

ITA, but I think this about grief. Honestly, grief became a lot more manageable for me when I leaned into the thought that Nobody Cares. That I could pay a therapist, say anything and not have it held against me, cry, rage, say I wish I would stop waking up in the morning, say things like how unhelpful my mother was, and really just say whatever ugly thing my “friends” didn’t really want to hear. 
 

I do think I have some better friends now than I did when all this was super relevant, but for all I know, if I went through some other ugly awful thing, maybe I would find most of these friends don’t really care that much either. 
 

It’s hard to love people with big wounds. They aren’t that fun at a party. 

Yep, I can see that. 

Sometimes it's that people don't care, sometimes it's that they do, but don't know how to help, and sometimes it's that you just don't want to make a friend share your burden. 

Nothing wrong with professional support. 

[Rosie_0801]

I think our culture struggles with the concept of some problems being unsolvable. To accept that, you have to lose your belief in justice and that's not a nice thing to do.

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

ITA, but I think this about grief. Honestly, grief became a lot more manageable for me when I leaned into the thought that Nobody Cares. That I could pay a therapist, say anything and not have it held against me, cry, rage, say I wish I would stop waking up in the morning, say things like how unhelpful my mother was, and really just say whatever ugly thing my “friends” didn’t really want to hear. 
 

I do think I have some better friends now than I did when all this was super relevant, but for all I know, if I went through some other ugly awful thing, maybe I would find most of these friends don’t really care that much either. 
 

It’s hard to love people with big wounds. They aren’t that fun at a party. 

Yep. All that’s true too.  One of my best therapist counselors was also a priest.  I once told a friend that in a particularly brutal session (which isn’t bad necessarily. Opening festering wounds is an ugly painful process.)  I yelling something in fury and tossed in some very prolific f littered phrases.  Friend laughed and then caught herself and said, “wait! Isn’t he a priest?!” So which I laughed and said priests hear it all. Literally. The cussing the sex the abuse the illegal - they aren’t shocked by much of anything and he didn’t tell me to not talk that way or some such nonsense. He knew my feelings were totally legit and he had a few choice words too.  The reason he went for doctorates in psychology and therapy is exactly because he wanted to help hurting people in a abusing world.  And that’s never going to be a polite nice conversation where no one is every uncomfortable. 

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Yep, I can see that. 

Sometimes it's that people don't care, sometimes it's that they do, but don't know how to help, and sometimes it's that you just don't want to make a friend share your burden. 

Nothing wrong with professional support. 

I completely agree. Professionals who are good at their jobs are literal life and relationship and sanity savers.  

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I think our culture struggles with the concept of some problems being unsolvable. To accept that, you have to lose your belief in justice and that's not a nice thing to do.

Yes. 

And there are very few models for how to do this.

[Melissa Louise]

10 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I know. Shame is very isolating.

Again. Good friends can make a difference. Everyone should have someone they can discuss the unspeakable things with. At least a professional. And hopefully a true friend.

I feel like I love my closest friends too much to make them share, even vicariously, in ugliness. 

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I think our culture struggles with the concept of some problems being unsolvable. To accept that, you have to lose your belief in justice and that's not a nice thing to do.

Yes. There will never be justice for me.  I will always live with the choices that other people made.  But doing just penance for other people’s actions is an extremely hard thing even for the most devout of Christians.  It doesn’t mean I have to let it continue. It doesn’t mean I have to be a doormat. But at some point I do have to accept that all I can do is what I can do. And those other people? They don’t get to define me or decide who I am. 

[Slache]

7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes. 

And there are very few models for how to do this.

Which is why most of us choose denial. It's easier.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

I feel like I love my closest friends too much to make them share, even vicariously, in ugliness. 

🥺 That’s shame talking imo.  But I get it. 

I suppose to me, how close of a friendship can I have with people who don’t know the worst about me? How can I ever help them in their darkest hours if I don’t even know that’s where they are?

But I get it. I get that fear of rejection and shame from those we love and want to be loved by.

I did have one friend that frankly I think it hurt our friendship. She had a similar though not same experience and I think it really shook her that I didn’t handle my situation the same as she handled hers. Maybe she was looking for validation and didn’t get it. Idk.

Again. I wouldn’t spill everything to everyone either. But very close friends? Friends that are supposedly closer than actual siblings? Yes. Carrying our crosses together is an important aspect of that closeness. 

and again. I don’t think it’s an either or with a professional.  Both can be extremely beneficial. 

[Guest]

@Murphy101 I think, ideally, we all have one or two close friends (maybe for some lucky people it’s their spouse) who can totally sit with the brokenness, who can totally be present with a damaged person and can stick by them. But personally, I haven’t experienced it. I have a few friends with whom I share more and who I trust with certain information but to lay bare my soul completely with another person? No I don’t have that and never have. When I thought I had that in the past and learned that I didn’t actually, it was too shattering. I’m not doing that again. 
 

I do have a friend whom I feel I could call in a crisis at 4 am, but I never have done that in the past. Not once. I can’t really see doing it at all unless someone is in mortal peril. Or in prison. And in that case, I’m probably calling my lawyer, lol.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Indeed, it's well-known among those who bother to know these things that the most dangerous time to be in an abusive relationship is in the first year after you leave. Physically abusive partners are more likely to kill you, those who haven't previously escalated to physical violence are more likely to assault you (or kill you), they're all more likely to start stalking, trying to ruin your reputation, etc etc etc.

If you want to know why people don't leave, and psychological answers don't satisfy, that's a big one. People don't want to die!

Sometimes staying is even more dangerous.  I think of Susan Powell - a lot of people tried to get her to leave even offering her money and a safe place to go. she was afraid to stay and afraid to leave - eventually her husband did kill her.  And then he killed himself and their children.

47 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yep, I can see that. 

Sometimes it's that people don't care, sometimes it's that they do, but don't know how to help, and sometimes it's that you just don't want to make a friend share your burden. 

Nothing wrong with professional support. 

Sometimes, it is so far outside their experience - they think you're engaging in hyperbole, or even outright lying (for whatever reason).

I even had a therapist who became convinced my husband was the problem and wanted him to come in.  She then demanded to know what I "had to promise him" to get him to come. . . .She didn't believe me that I didn't have to "promise him" anything.  It became clear she was (at best) a waste of my time and money.  (I don't think I saw her more than four or maybe five times in total. - but, neither did I go try to find someone else at that time. Which I really needed.)

 

40 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Yep. All that’s true too.  One of my best therapist counselors was also a priest.  I once told a friend that in a particularly brutal session (which isn’t bad necessarily. Opening festering wounds is an ugly painful process.)  I yelling something in fury and tossed in some very prolific f littered phrases.  Friend laughed and then caught herself and said, “wait! Isn’t he a priest?!” So which I laughed and said priests hear it all. Literally. The cussing the sex the abuse the illegal - they aren’t shocked by much of anything and he didn’t tell me to not talk that way or some such nonsense. He knew my feelings were totally legit and he had a few choice words too.  The reason he went for doctorates in psychology and therapy is exactly because he wanted to help hurting people in a abusing world.  And that’s never going to be a polite nice conversation where no one is every uncomfortable. 

I completely agree. Professionals who are good at their jobs are literal life and relationship and sanity savers.  

I was doing EMDR with my last therapist - we got into one "vein"  - and I dropped an f-bomb.  She jumped, because I don't talk that way. She was really surprised.

She also bluntly asked me how I avoided all the self-destructive paths that are typical for someone with my background.  Some days - I don't know.

My sister's current therapist is the same age as one of her daughters - so she's reluctant to "really tell it like it is".  She feels motherly and like she has to protect her.

[Melissa Louise]

43 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Sometimes staying is even more dangerous.  I think of Susan Powell - a lot of people tried to get her to leave even offering her money and a safe place to go. she was afraid to stay and afraid to leave - eventually her husband did kill her.  And then he killed himself and their children.

Sometimes, it is so far outside their experience - they think you're engaging in hyperbole, or even outright lying (for whatever reason).

 

It's always a gamble. 

Yes, to accusations of hyperbole and lying. That was my experience as a teen.

Making sure when parent lost the plot, I drew them out of the kitchen, because I was pretty sure if a knife or a mallet was to hand, it wouldn't just be a hand to the head.

But school teachers, school psychs etc disbelieving and telling me to stop being an attention seeking drama queen, because parent was 'known' to be the involved type and was well liked. Mega level gaslighting there. Clearly, they couldn't conceive of a parent who could be both 'good' but also scarily out of control.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

they couldn't conceive of a parent who could be both 'good' but also scarily out of control.

And that is what ends all arguments that they are unaware of what they are doing.

They know enough NOT to do it in front of other people - and to present a "good parent" persona for other people. (to suck them in to their fraud.)

[Melissa Louise]

40 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

And that is what ends all arguments that they are unaware of what they are doing.

They know enough NOT to do it in front of other people - and to present a "good parent" persona for other people. (to suck them in to their fraud.)

Not all abusers are narcs, though.

My parent was extremely triggered by her own trauma and just unable to cope with parenting teens. There should have been support for her to access, but there wasn't.

She could be 'good' to others because they didn't trigger her deep trauma. Some abusers are just unwell. I find their actions forgiveable in a way that mentally healthy but (inadvertently?) gaslighting bystanders aren't. 

 

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Not all abusers are narcs, though.

My parent was extremely triggered by her own trauma and just unable to cope with parenting teens. There should have been support for her to access, but there wasn't.

She could be 'good' to others because they didn't trigger her deep trauma. Some abusers are just unwell. I find their actions forgiveable in a way that mentally healthy but (inadvertently?) gaslighting bystanders aren't. 

 

Did she abuse you in front of other people? Or did she 'save it for at home/in private'?

It's not about how she treated other people. But that an abuser has enough control over themselves to not abuse in front of others.

That was my point.

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

Did she abuse you in front of other people? Or did she 'save it for at home/in private'?

It's not about how she treated other people. But that an abuser has enough control over themselves to not abuse in front of others.

That was my point.

 

Yeah, point taken 🙁

[cintinative]

@Quill I haven't found those friends either. There are people that I know care, but no one who I can share everything with, and (another thread) everyone is just.so.busy.  It's really hard to build good relationships with people who are always running from one thing to another.  (Another thread, but I have this theory that people don't want to slow down and be alone with their thoughts.)

Edited December 29, 2021 by cintinative

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

@Quill I haven't found those friends either. There are people that I know care, but no one who I can share everything with, and (another thread) everyone is just.so.busy.  It's really hard to build good relationships with people who are always running from one thing to another.  (Another thread, but I have this theory that people don't want to slow down and be alone with their thoughts.)

not to derail - but I came to realize people who want their music blasting so loud you can't hear someone else scream in your ear even though they're next to you - also can't hear their own thoughts.

and others, just talk.  and talk. and talk.  just to talk.  Some have called it mouth diarrhea.