I still don’t really understand “gaslighting”

[Guest]

People aren't real to them in the sense that others have equal rights, standing, or feelings. People are either sources of ego propping or ego threats and the threats have to be punished. 
 

So, I think this is true, but what I would like to explore is, what can be done when one is dealing with a person who behaves this way. Must the only solution be to get the person out of your life? 
 

Recently, in politics there was a certain current politician who said something complementary about a certain former politician, who is believed to have NPD. I don’t know if this was strategic or just a normal thing for the non-NPD current politician to do - give credit where due - but I thought it was a smart move. It could have the result of followers of the former politician thinking maybe it’s time for them to get vaccinated after all. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

People aren't real to them in the sense that others have equal rights, standing, or feelings. People are either sources of ego propping or ego threats and the threats have to be punished. 
 

So, I think this is true, but what I would like to explore is, what can be done when one is dealing with a person who behaves this way. Must the only solution be to get the person out of your life?  

Boundaries.  Boundaries vary from no contact to anything goes.  Healthy boundaries are somewhere in the middle.   Narcissists despise *other people's* boundaries because it interferes with their control.   Granted my grandmother was in her late 70s, but she was still nasty when I started learning about boundaries.  I didn't cut her out, I seriously controlled the interaction we had.

I waffle about what is the best boundary with my brother.  (when my mother died - I felt relief my brother couldn't manipulate her anymore.)  I can control the interaction and ignore other behaviors - but at times it requires me to pushback hard.  While I'm capable of doing it, I don't like being that person.  However, that is sometimes required for sanity and keeping him in line.

There are different types of narcissism, and different degrees of toxicity.  The narcissist's main aim is "supply" to feed their ego.  It sounds counter-intuitive, but narcissists are insecure.  degree of insecurity ranges, and how it manifests differs. But the insecurity is there.  Your relationship to the narcissist will also dictate how much impact they have on you.   Some narcissists will be happy to entertain everyone as they are getting their supply (though they get angry if someone else is being entertaining or otherwise diverting attention from them. iow: they love the limelight and are unwilling to share it.) - some need to control everything and everyone around them.  They are particularly insecure.  And particularly toxic and destructive.  

Emotionally healthy people do not "need" to control others to feel important and they are not emotionally threatened by someone else having success.

eta: my neices (and my sister) have gone no-contact with my brother.  It's what makes them feel safe. (safety includes mentally safe/sanity.)  One has periodically had contact/no-contact with him, but she always ends up frustrated and telling him to back-off. The other is no contact. She has a collection of texts/emails from him to use as evidence if she ever decides to file a restraining order with the court.

For some - no contact is the ONLY safe boundary there is.   Most do not make that decision lightly, and I find it sad how many who do make that choice get pushback from third parties who have no clue.

Edited December 26, 2021 by gardenmom5

[saraha]

25 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

   Some narcissists will be happy to entertain everyone as they are getting their supply (though they get angry if someone else is being entertaining or otherwise diverting attention from them. iow: they love the limelight and are unwilling to share it.) - some need to control everything and everyone around them.  They

After this year’s thanksgiving fiasco I have been doing some reading and my sister resembles the first type and my mother the second type. It is becoming clear so many little things over the years, and with having my only foo both behaving in these ways, I was getting the message that I am unstable/untrustworthy from two different directions. They are both pulling hard at my since thanksgiving and are really shocked/unbalanced by my new rock hard boundaries.
For example my mom called me one day at 10:30. I was doing school so didn’t answer. She called back at 2:30, I was at work. She called back at 6:30 we were at the zoo for a family Christmas outing. She called back at 9:30, I was driving in the car with my family having a good time. Each message she sounded more annoyed I hadn’t answered or called back. She called the next morning at 9, I was in the shower with the plan of calling her that morning. She left a message saying she was going to call the police for a well check because I wasn’t answering calling her back! Of course she got an immediate call back because I didn’t want our rural sheriff to waste time on it.  When I asked her what the heck, she spun it as just a caring grandmother that was afraid blah blah blah. I used to then feel ashamed for scaring her, but this time I had her increased ANNOYANCE, not FEAR recorded and knew better. I consider that gaslighting.
My dh was accidentally complicit for years because each little thing wasn’t a big deal, but was unable to see the cumulative affect on me, even through this past thanksgiving. He is getting smarter along with me and is the main reason I can have new boundaries as he is onboard 💯 that they are the crazy ones and not that I am just overly sensitive. It is a relief sometimes and a huge emotional struggle sometimes

Edited December 26, 2021 by saraha

[Spryte]

These threads are so informative. I learn so much here. Thank you for this one in particular, it’s resonated.

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, saraha said:

After this year’s thanksgiving fiasco I have been doing some reading and my sister resembles the first type and my mother the second type. It is becoming clear so many little things over the years, and with having my only foo both behaving in these ways, I was getting the message that I am unstable/untrustworthy from two different directions. They are both pulling hard at my since thanksgiving and are really shocked/unbalanced by my new rock hard boundaries. My dh was accidentally complicit for years because each little thing wasn’t a big deal, but was unable to see the cumulative affect on me, even through this past thanksgiving. He is getting smarter along with me and is the main reason I can have new boundaries as he is onboard 💯 that they are the crazy ones and not that I am just overly sensitive. It is a relief sometimes and a huge emotional struggle sometimes

There are seven recognized "types".
Dr. Ramani and Dr Les Carter have both done videos expounding upon it.

And people can have more than one type, and they can have other diagnosis as well.  Like anti-social personality disorder . . . . 

Most people think of narcissists as the stereotype of a grandiose narcissist.  That's just one, and the most obvious one at that.

My grandmother was likely covert, she would undermine someone so she could rescue them.  I'm not sure what my brother is.  His vibes of insecurity at times are overwhelming.  Maybe I'm just more aware.  He was the golden child; the world doesn't care and doesn't treat him as one.

[saraha]

I am starting to look back at so many things from my teenage years on with a different perspective and sometimes want to slap my forehead. With Christmas this year, we decided to go ahead and have it at moms like usual knowing that she would be In The love bombing stage and not expecting hostility and we didn’t really have time to make other arrangements, but I’ve told both of them, from now on I am hosting all the holidays and they are welcome to come or not as they see fit. No one is going to have the ability to cancel my holidays on a whim again, and I am done “being flexible” to their needs regardless of the fact that I am the one with kids and they are both single, one retired and one a teacher with all holidays off. Right now it feels so good to not care how they feel about that, since themselves are the only things they truly care about.

[Indigo Blue]

I got sucked in on Christmas Eve. Almost. 
 

I believe a normal exchange would have gone like this:

Me: There is xyz restaurant right off xyz highway. We should eat there sometime.
 

First Person: No, it’s past xyz pharmacy, further on down by the movie theatre.

Second person: Yes. It’s off xyz highway, not by the movie theatre. My friends and I just ate there. 
 

Me: Yes, there is no movie theatre in that area. It’s off xyz highway. I go home that way all the time. 
 

First person: Oh, ok. I must be thinking of some other place. Yes, we should eat there sometime.

BUT it went like this:

First person: Well, (getting a bit worked up and raising voice)  I KNOW it’s over by the theatre. You and I have eaten there before and we also got smoothies that day.
 

Second person: This argument is unproductive. 
 

I mentally agreed with second person, realized I was getting sucked in and it was about to become  a thing, and just said no more. I do know I had never eaten at this restaurant in the supposed location. I had eaten at that restaurant for the first time in my life a few weeks prior in a city two hours away. 
 

This isn’t gaslighting, (well it could be, but I think first person was just being characteristically argumentative and stubborn). It’s just an example of how difficult each and every little conversation can turn into a thing if you aren’t careful to remember to be very nonchalant. 

 

 

 

[Indigo Blue]

3 minutes ago, saraha said:

I am starting to look back at so many things from my teenage years on with a different perspective and sometimes want to slap my forehead. With Christmas this year, we decided to go ahead and have it at moms like usual knowing that she would be In The love bombing stage and not expecting hostility and we didn’t really have time to make other arrangements, but I’ve told both of them, from now on I am hosting all the holidays and they are welcome to come or not as they see fit. No one is going to have the ability to cancel my holidays on a whim again, and I am done “being flexible” to their needs regardless of the fact that I am the one with kids and they are both single, one retired and one a teacher with all holidays off. Right now it feels so good to not care how they feel about that, since themselves are the only things they truly care about.

Good for you!!! It’s got to be a relief for you. 

[saraha]

I have looked back at that thread from thanksgiving so many times this last month to remind myself that I’m not crazy, it happened like that in Real time and I am grateful for the hive and this forum to help me see and break the cycle. We are not no contact, I don’t think that’s necessary, but there is a new sheriff in town so to speak. I told her that if she threatens to call the police again because I don’t answer or return her calls right away I’m going to have to tell them when they show up I fear she is becoming mentally unbalanced because it is not normal to become scared because a person doesn’t answer their phone. She sputtered for a minute and then told me I’m ridiculous. I said nope don’t think so, gotta go, bye.🤪

Edited December 26, 2021 by saraha

[Slache]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

So, I think this is true, but what I would like to explore is, what can be done when one is dealing with a person who behaves this way. Must the only solution be to get the person out of your life? 
 

In my opinion, a toxic person is a toxic person, I don't care if they have a personality disorder or not. I use the same tools for an individual with narcissistic personality disorder that I do with regular difficult people.

Grey rock, info diet and boundaries, controlled contact, no contact if necessary.

Grey rocking is when you are intentionally very boring. You give one word answers when possible and never explain. Info diet is when you never offer up any information that could become a problem. We would never tell certain people that we were going on vacation or making a large purchase. You also might not tell some people if you're pregnant, or experiencing an illness. Controlled contact is when you only see people under certain, controlled circumstances. Examples could be church or going out to eat instead of meeting in your home or their home.

All of these methods are intended to be used with disordered individuals, but clearly you can see they would work with anyone.

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Slache

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, saraha said:

I am starting to look back at so many things from my teenage years on with a different perspective and sometimes want to slap my forehead. With Christmas this year, we decided to go ahead and have it at moms like usual knowing that she would be In The love bombing stage and not expecting hostility and we didn’t really have time to make other arrangements, but I’ve told both of them, from now on I am hosting all the holidays and they are welcome to come or not as they see fit. No one is going to have the ability to cancel my holidays on a whim again, and I am done “being flexible” to their needs regardless of the fact that I am the one with kids and they are both single, one retired and one a teacher with all holidays off. Right now it feels so good to not care how they feel about that, since themselves are the only things they truly care about.

Don't be hard on yourself.  You were a teen, and you were raised to think this was normal.

You are breaking the cycle now.  Your children will have a different experience because of your choices now.

One tip - I will never be in a situation with my brother I can't just walk away if he goes OTT.  He's not allowed in my house because of it.

[saraha]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

People aren't real to them in the sense that others have equal rights, standing, or feelings. People are either sources of ego propping or ego threats and the threats have to be punished. 
 

So, I think this is true, but what I would like to explore is, what can be done when one is dealing with a person who behaves this way. Must the only solution be to get the person out of your life? 

I’m new to this whole thing, but since thanksgiving I have been employing the gray rock, info diet, op! One of the kids needs me, tactics to keep phone calls short and sweet. I no longer see my mother as a person who is entitled to me. She now gets treated just like my grumpy little old guy I work for with the same amount of personal information sharing and smile and nod tactics.  Now that she got her way for Christmas but I said that from now on I’m hosting, I expect radio silence for a while as punishment. Then more normal, easier to deal with annoying behaviors til Easter when I remind her that I am hosting…

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

In my opinion, a toxic person is a toxic person, I don't care if they have a personality disorder or not. I use the same tools for an individual with narcissistic personality disorder that I do with regular difficult people.

Grey rock, info diet and boundaries, controlled contact, no contact if necessary.

Grey rocking is when you are intentionally very boring. You give one word answers when possible and never explain. Info diet is when you never offer up any information that could become a problem. We would never tell certain people that we were going on vacation or making a large purchase. You also might not tell some people if you're pregnant, or experiencing an illness. Controlled contact is when you only see people under certain, controlled circumstances. Examples could be church or going out to eat instead of meeting in your home or their home.

All of these methods are intended to be used with disordered individuals, but clearly you can see they would work with anyone.

 

re: the toxic person. I fully agree, why they are toxic is irrelevant.  You still have to deal with them. 

info diet: with my grandmother - that was ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.  And not sharing every detail would anger her.

Her idea of Miranda rights was: Anything you say WILL be used against you.   We might not know when, or how - but rest assured, it would come.  Even an "I love you" would eventually be used against you.   She could give lessons on interrogation.  She'd word things like she knew the answer - she was fishing for information.

 

I would like to mention dementia can sometimes mimic some of this - but it will be a NEW thing.  My bil (late 60s) has started gaslighting? (I don't recall the exact specifics) my sister. (they've been together 45 years).  At first she thought he was just being obnoxious.  Then that she was crazy.  Now she thinks he's developing dementia (she was pointed in that direction by a medical professional) and is trying to get him in to be seen and tested.   

[Indigo Blue]

13 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I would like to mention dementia can sometimes mimic some of this - but it will be a NEW thing.  My bil (late 60s) has started gaslighting? (I don't recall the exact specifics) my sister. (they've been together 45 years).  At first she thought he was just being obnoxious.  Then that she was crazy.  Now she thinks he's developing dementia (she was pointed in that direction by a medical professional) and is trying to get him in to be seen and tested.   

I’m very worried about this. I think dementia could be playing a part in some things I’m seeing. It’s hard to separate it out because she’s been difficult all her life. Also, she’s not going to willingly agree to any treatment. It’s not going to be easy, I’m afraid, to get help if/ when it’s needed.

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, Quill said:

 

 

Now I’ve just learned there’s something called DARVO, which I won’t be able to identify either. 

It's just a label. It doesn't really matter, especially if you don't experience it. All it means, really, is that someone is falsely accusing you of doing the thing they are actually doing. 

So when my ex accused me of sleeping around, I wasn't, but he was. 

I'm not always a fan of the lingo, and think it's mainly useful for shorthand between people who have had very similar experiences. The lingo mechanizes our experience of abuse, reduces it to patterns, and I think adds to stigma by removing emotion from our recounts, like pain and fear. 

So then people end up asking, why would you put up with this clearly defined pattern, and you have no answer, because you didn't experience it as a pattern, you experienced it as pain and fear and anger and confusion, in the midst of which you tried your best to make sense of things, and make good decisions, and be a good and loving person. 

I think these type of discussions result in very little understanding of what it's like to live in abuse, and risk hardening attitudes. 

The narrative gets very simple - there is a he or she who enacts a pattern, there is a he or she who isn't smart enough to say 'bye, and everything gets boiled down to narcissism, and a focus on the psychology of the abuser. The victim of the abuse disappears, just as she or he did during the abuse.

So don't worry about gaslighting or DARVO or whatever. It's peer shorthand and it doesn't matter otherwise. 

 

 

 

[Indigo Blue]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

So, I think this is true, but what I would like to explore is, what can be done when one is dealing with a person who behaves this way. Must the only solution be to get the person out of your life? 

IMO it depends. If they are a bit difficult, maybe not. The people who need to be out of your life (although it isn’t always possible) are the ones who show many facets of toxicity. Lying, manipulating, triangulating, exploiting behaviors…..etc.

You can keep mild toxicity in your life if you can grey rock, have boundaries, etc., and it’s working. 

I SAY these things like I am some sort of expert, but the truth is it’s hard to apply this in reality. 

[GoodGrief3]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

Sometimes people who are doing the gaslighting aren't even fully aware either. They are in the conflict, feel guilty about it, and deflect so much blame that they start to convince the more open minded, balanced person that they're really to blame.

This is my experience. Often the narcissist comes to believe the lie is the truth. Their brains are in the practice of twisting the facts to protect the ego. It's what makes getting at the actual truth more tricky.

[Spryte]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

info diet: with my grandmother - that was ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.  And not sharing every detail would anger her.

Her idea of Miranda rights was: Anything you say WILL be used against you.   We might not know when, or how - but rest assured, it would come.  Even an "I love you" would eventually be used against you.   She could give lessons on interrogation.  She'd word things like she knew the answer - she was fishing for information.

 

And manipulating to get the answers she wanted, I bet.

I wish I’d learned about all this a long time ago.
 

My aunt compared that type of conversation to being violated (she used a harsher, more graphic word), once I was an adult, but other than that one conversation with the aunt, the behavior was never discussed in our family. I thought it was just me, something about the way I communicated, for decades.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

And manipulating to get the answers she wanted, I bet.

I wish I’d learned about all this a long time ago.
 

My aunt compared that type of conversation to being violated (she used a harsher, more graphic word), once I was an adult, but other than that one conversation with the aunt, the behavior was never discussed in our family. I thought it was just me, something about the way I communicated, for decades.

I do have some satisfaction for one time, after she'd convinced me she knew the answers already, I shared.   She squirmed.  She didn't want to hear the truth.  It's your daughter's behavior (and your golden grandson's behavior), and you wanted to know. live with it. Not that she'd do anything. Not even to protect her 15-year-old granddaughter.

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief3 said:

This is my experience. Often the narcissist comes to believe the lie is the truth. Their brains are in the practice of twisting the facts to protect the ego. It's what makes getting at the actual truth more tricky.

Dr. Les Carter (surviving narcissism channel) refuses to have narcissists as patients.  The work just to stay ahead of the lie.   he'd rather help their victims.

My brother did therapy with his youngest daughter. After several sessions together, her therapist told her not to bring him back, and what he saw.  She moved out of his house and went no-contact.

[saraha]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Dr. Les Carter (surviving narcissism channel) refuses to have narcissists as patients.  The work just to stay ahead of the lie.   he'd rather help their victims.

My brother did therapy with his youngest daughter. After several sessions together, her therapist told her not to bring him back, and what he saw.  She moved out of his house and went no-contact.

Does this mean narcissistic people are a lost cause?

[Slache]

5 minutes ago, saraha said:

Does this mean narcissistic people are a lost cause?

Usually.

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, saraha said:

Does this mean narcissistic people are a lost cause?

Yes.

To recover they would have to face their selfishness, their lack of integrity and the pain they've caused, and they've caused a lot. Who is that brave? 

[Slache]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Yes.

To recover they would have to face their selfishness, their lack of integrity and the pain they've caused, and they've caused a lot. Who is that brave? 

Lee Hammond and Sam Vaknin. Both diagnosed NPD, both geniuses, both began experiencing abuse later in life. I'm sure there are others, but the chances of them being willing to face it has got to be less than 1 in 100,000. I assume far less than.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's just a label. It doesn't really matter, especially if you don't experience it. All it means, really, is that someone is falsely accusing you of doing the thing they are actually doing. 

So when my ex accused me of sleeping around, I wasn't, but he was. 

I'm not always a fan of the lingo, and think it's mainly useful for shorthand between people who have had very similar experiences. The lingo mechanizes our experience of abuse, reduces it to patterns, and I think adds to stigma by removing emotion from our recounts, like pain and fear. 

So then people end up asking, why would you put up with this clearly defined pattern, and you have no answer, because you didn't experience it as a pattern, you experienced it as pain and fear and anger and confusion, in the midst of which you tried your best to make sense of things, and make good decisions, and be a good and loving person. 

I think these type of discussions result in very little understanding of what it's like to live in abuse, and risk hardening attitudes. 

The narrative gets very simple - there is a he or she who enacts a pattern, there is a he or she who isn't smart enough to say 'bye, and everything gets boiled down to narcissism, and a focus on the psychology of the abuser. The victim of the abuse disappears, just as she or he did during the abuse.

So don't worry about gaslighting or DARVO or whatever. It's peer shorthand and it doesn't matter otherwise. 

 

 

 

They can even bring in third parties as part of the dynamic.

My sister was the favorite-victim (think Munchausen lite. Grandmother would undermine so she could rescue.  It made her feel "needed".).  If I only had a nickel for every time I heard " poor Sister, she's had such a hard life"  (in grandmother's mind, none of the bad things that happened to her were her fault.  -illegal and self-destructive bad things.).  Eventually, I realized, in my grandmother's head, my sister was innocent of those things - I was the guilty party.  She'd even tell my brother it was me.  I am five and a half years younger. I was a child - she was a teen.  Every Christmas picture was her crying and my mother and grandmother glaring at her.  Every single one, until my father died.  So the last one, I was 11, and she was 16.  Then things got even worse.

I was able to keep my head above water (barely - My therapist asked me how I did it.) and I married well. (and yeah, I'm a disney princess . . .  I married the right guy, but I also needed to be rescued as I was exhausted from treading water for more than a decade with no support and I simply couldn't' do it anymore.  After we got married, I just slept from emotional exhaustion.) dh was building a house, so my grandmother gave my sister the money for a downpayment on a house.  We bought a van, so she gave my sister money for a van (after having purchased a new station wagon for her a few years beforehand.).  She paid for my niece's private school tuition (same school as the Gate's kids).  constant competition.  Anything good that happened to me - was taking away from her favorite-victim. and I was selfish.  I had that message drilled into me from the time I was a child.

To follow up with what Melisa Louise is saying that in practicality, the reason they do what they do is irrelevant. They're still doing damage and you have to protect yourself and vulnerable others from them.

My grandmother's demands and favoritism destroyed the relationships between us siblings, her only grandchildren.  I have my theories why she did it - the point is .  . . SHE DID IT.  And if that smirk and sneer, and laugh were anything to go by - she enjoyed putting people "in their place".

My grandmother has been dead for 30 years, my mother for 10 - my sister and I are finally really sitting down and talking.  As bad as I had it, in some ways she had it worse.  I was the extraneous third, scapegoat, she was the first, the "favorite-victim" (and I remember when I realized I was being groomed to take over the role of enabling her. . . . uh, nope.  I have my own children to care for.)

[Katy]

5 hours ago, Quill said:Must the only solution be to get the person out of your life? 

 

23 minutes ago, saraha said:

Does this mean narcissistic people are a lost cause?

If a person has a full blown personality disorder probably not anything to do but avoid them. But every person has some of these behaviors sometimes. Those people who are often just extremely insecure bcan be taught, in a manner, by making and sticking to very clear boundaries. And those with a personality disorder, depending on the type, sometimes avoid people who get angry and call them out publicly on unacceptable behavior.

My MIL is afraid of me, and I’m good with that. DH’s siblings were joking about all the horrible ways she would behave if she ever showed up the first time I met her. I got angry at them.  Who talks about their parents in such a disrespectful manner, even IF she is terrible? Then she went on to do every single thing they’d joked about, and her sister (who I’d also never met before) tried to manipulate us into helping her. I made it very clear this was unacceptable and would NOT be a regular occurrence. I’ve seen her twice since. She was very sheepish both times. Though to be clear, Dh is the golden child. 

[gardenmom5]

33 minutes ago, saraha said:

Does this mean narcissistic people are a lost cause?

For the average narcissist - yes.  As far as they are concerned, it's the people around them.  They're a victim of everyone else.  They constantly blame shift.

(my niece recently sent off a note to her dad.  He constantly blameshifts, NOTHING is ever "his fault".  He's a victim.  _ she was blunt "nope, the entire problem is YOUR ego!")  She has hope.  I've had hope. But the likelihood is somewhere between slim and none.   

Dialectical Behavior Therapy was developed to specifically treat borderline personality disorder.  BPD are more willing to admit they're the problem and seek treatment.

I have two narcissists in my life who died of old age - the mind games only stopped when they developed dementia.

I would think Jackie Kennedy's mother was a piece of work, sending someone to get Jack Bouvier drunk so he'd miss Jackie's wedding. - but my grandmother would frequently suggestion my 9/10-year-old self should shave off my dad's beard while he was sleeping.  Or 14-year-old self give my brother a haircut while he was asleep.  It wasn't a joke, she was serious because she didn't approve, and she didn't recognize people have autonomy and can hold a different opinion than her. So, she would force her will upon us if she could.  These people are evil. I don't say that lightly.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

Does this mean narcissistic people are a lost cause?

They are for the people they abuse. They do not know any other way to relate and are u willing to learn so long as their victims hang on hoping they will change. A rare few, hitting rock bottom and alienating to the point of no - contact with all of their family, their neighbors, their co-workers, etc. may eventually make an effort to become tolerable out of sheer desperation, loneliness, lack of love and affection in their lives becoming overwhelming. I have ONE relative for whom that happened. But the other two narcissists and the spouses that enable them are zero contact now, and I would assume the apocalypse is right around the corner if either of them ever turned into a passably safe human being.

Maybe someday there will be enough knowledge of human development, neurology, and personality disorders in order to form treatment plans, but for now most therapists say there is nothing to be done but protect yourself and your family.

[GoodGrief3]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

Does this mean narcissistic people are a lost cause

Personality disorders in general are exceptionally difficult to treat, and narcissistic personality disorder is the most difficult. Honestly, it's tough to get a solid diagnosis too. I'd say that most of us who are speaking of our experience with these things are talking about patterns of behavior in people that have probably not been formally diagnosed or treated.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, GoodGrief3 said:

Personality disorders in general are exceptionally difficult to treat, and narcissistic personality disorder is the most difficult. Honestly, it's tough to get a solid diagnosis too. I'd say that most of us who are speaking of our experience with these things are talking about patterns of behavior in people that have probably not been formally diagnosed or treated.

Yes, most narcissists are never going to be in a psychiatrists office for evaluation of their problems because they don't think they are the problem, ever. But occasionally some how tangentially there is an official diagnosis. One of the narcs on my side of the family is officially diagnosed. We all KNEW what she was before the official label was on it. However, she was applying for a job that required a pretty extensive psych eval in order to get, and had a hard time getting character references because she burned every bridge she ever had. I think the leery wording of former co-workers and a local pastor when called about those references triggered a deeper evaluation, and she was turned down for the job. She actually then exploded all over her kids.about how the psychiatrist told her she was a narcissist! She went bananas. Meanwhile her teenage daughter rolled her eyes and said, "Tell us something we didn't already know!" And yes, this is the person we eventually had to 100% cut out of our lives though she lives two blocks from our current home. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

They are for the people they abuse. They do not know any other way to relate and are u willing to learn so long as their victims hang on hoping they will change. A rare few, hitting rock bottom and alienating to the point of no - contact with all of their family, their neighbors, their co-workers, etc. may eventually make an effort to become tolerable out of sheer desperation, loneliness, lack of love and affection in their lives becoming overwhelming. I have ONE relative for whom that happened. But the other two narcissists and the spouses that enable them are zero contact now, and I would assume the apocalypse is right around the corner if either of them ever turned into a passably safe human being.

Maybe someday there will be enough knowledge of human development, neurology, and personality disorders in order to form treatment plans, but for now most therapists say there is nothing to be done but protect yourself and your family.

My brother is getting there.  I honestly hope he does. Even his son thinks he's crazy and wants little/nothing to do with him. his daughters are minimal/no-contact.  

as for treatment plans - they would STILL have to participate/admit they need to change.  That requires humility (willingness to be taught), something of which they are in particularly short supply.

He's on his third divorce - from the woman that was his "perfect" match.  (at least they didn't' have kids. He's in his 60s and wanted more.)  

1exsil's cousin (that she thinks is nuts) actually works at the same place as my brother.  They were in a training session together, and apparently my brother went off on a monologue pontificating about whatever his latest conspiracy theory of the month is.  Even the person presenting the workshop couldn't get him to just shut up.  Everyone else was ticked off because of how much time he was wasting.  The longer he spoke, the longer they were going to be there.  He used to have a security clearance at his current employer, he doesn't anymore.

After blowing up at me in October (boundaries), he's now desperately trying to get me to pay attention to him.   If I thought he was teachable, and willing to learn how/ABLE to treat others with respect (instead of disdain/contempt) - I would be more willing to reach out.

In the next little bit, 1ds will be starting a job at the same facility/location.  Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do I want my brother to know.  Fingers crossed their paths never cross.

[Tanaqui]

5 hours ago, saraha said:

Does this mean narcissistic people are a lost cause?

 

Let's put it this way - even if they can change, they probably won't, and in the meantime, you need to take care of yourself. If that means acting as though they ARE a lost cause, that the can't ever change - then that's what you have to do. Sitting around hoping they'll change, putting yourself in situations where they can hurt you because they might have changed? You can't do that to yourself. Your first priority is to yourself, and your second to any vulnerable people, ie your children, who need you to take of yourself in order to take care of them and who probably shouldn't be exposed to this toxic person either.

There are a lot of barriers to people with this sort of mental illness from getting help, starting with the fact that the illness makes most of them extremely resistant to admitting they need help in the first place. (A minority appear to be very invested in doctor-shopping for a sympathetic ear and a socially acceptable diagnosis they can use to bludgeon others with. Needless to say, that's not helping them either.) And even if you can get them to go in for help, the odds of them finding and then sticking with somebody who is actually equipped to help them are slim. This is not an area that's exactly booming with specialists. It's not easy to treat.

You cannot live your life waiting for the people who hurt you to stop hurting you, and you cannot spend it trying to get them to accept the help they don't want and won't admit they need in the first place. You need to spend your life on you.

[Eos]

R

Edited February 6, 2023 by Eos

[Carrie12345]

13 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

They are for the people they abuse. They do not know any other way to relate and are u willing to learn so long as their victims hang on hoping they will change. A rare few, hitting rock bottom and alienating to the point of no - contact with all of their family, their neighbors, their co-workers, etc. may eventually make an effort to become tolerable out of sheer desperation, loneliness, lack of love and affection in their lives becoming overwhelming. I have ONE relative for whom that happened. But the other two narcissists and the spouses that enable them are zero contact now, and I would assume the apocalypse is right around the corner if either of them ever turned into a passably safe human being.

Maybe someday there will be enough knowledge of human development, neurology, and personality disorders in order to form treatment plans, but for now most therapists say there is nothing to be done but protect yourself and your family.

I’ve seen so much of the spectrum that I’ve HAD to do the whole “what’s the common denominator here”, which was like gaslighting myself! (Thank goodness for enough outsiders to reassure me.)

When I reflect on it, I do think some gaslighters/narcs are operating from a nurtured cause, after being victimized themselves by narcs-by-nature. I’ve found children and partners  of narcs to be much less vicious then their parents… as an overall, not necessarily instance-by-instance.

As an example, I believe my gaslighting grandmother was genuinely clueless as to what boundaries mean, after a deeply toxic marriage that undoubtedly left her traumatized. My boundary (not discussing my narc-trait father) was declared to be a demand for her to cut her son out of her life. ?!?!? 
Meanwhile, my father has never (to my knowledge) shown an intention to mess with anyone’s head, except for his constant boasting about his fabulous life which, from an average perspective, would be considered quite unimpressive. All hat, no cattle. He is entirely selfish and self-centered, but (again, to my knowledge) has only ever caused pain in the collateral damage of thinking he’s All That.

On the other end, my MIL spins narratives like knives and clearly aims to cause harm.  
HER daughter sometimes works hard to be different, but will reach for those tools when she’s faced with more than she can emotionally handle. After living here for months, we had just 1 conflict to address and she couldn’t deal, so she threw (metaphorical) knives. I don’t believe that’s what she wants, just what she knows.

 

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

@Slache  Hmmmm do you think a manipulative individual(s) will use these same tactics to hurt you?  Rock greying, info diet etc.

yes,

the only way to deal with their mind games are:

gray rock

info diet

boundaries.   - you don't announce boundaries, you just do them.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Lovinglife123 said:

I am a little confused—- do people sometimes do this whole gray rock, info diet & boundaries to actually hurt & manipulate a person ?

As in giving someone the silent treatment? Yes.

People also do those things when they're depressed as blazes and trying not to worry or hurt those around them too.
There are only so many options for humans to choose from, I guess.

[Slache]

22 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

@Slache  Hmmmm do you think a manipulative individual(s) will use these same tactics to hurt you?  Rock greying, info diet etc.

Yes.

3 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

I am a little confused—- do people sometimes do this whole gray rock, info diet & boundaries to actually hurt & manipulate a person ?

Yes. Agreeing with Rosie.

[Faith-manor]

15 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

As in giving someone the silent treatment? Yes.

People also do those things when they're depressed as blazes and trying not to worry or hurt those around them too.
There are only so many options for humans to choose from, I guess.

Rosie tells the truth. The motivation can be an unknown. I personally use grey rock and I do diet with my brother so things do not vet back to his wife, a vicious narc, because if she knows nothing about our lives, she chooses not to give us a second thought or attempt to contact us or our kids. If I slip and tell him anything going on in our lives or our kids lives, it invariably gets back to her, and then she goes into attack mode. 

For example, we did tell him we will not retire in Michigan. He wanted to know about our plans, but we refused to tell. Unfortunately, my mom let it slip that we had purchased our retirement house and where. He of course blabbed it to the witch. She looked it up on zillow, got jealous as hell (typical with her), and then had a long rant all over social media about how she is so oppressed and we flaunt our money at her and rub her nose in it and yada yada. She tried to contact our daughter to tell her that she and son in law and grandsons did not deserve to live in such a house currently (they are living here until we move which isn't for about four and half years). But then got really extra pissed because she found out their phone numbers had changed as have all of our children, and she couldn't talk go them. I got the insane message about what she intended to fell our daughter, and told my brother I deleted it, and told him he would be cut off if he can't refrain from talking about us with his witch. I then had to remind my mom of the rules. She is 78, and this is hard for her.

Meanwhile, three months later she is still all over social media claiming we flaunt our income. She had no idea what our income is or how we came to buy this house, and we have no direct contact with her at all. 

So I grey rock my brother because he will not shut his trap even though he knows exactly what kind of woman he is married too, and has destroyed his relationship with all five of his children who as adults have NOTHING to do with him or her and also grey rock the crap out of them. He has seven grandchildren and when the last one was born, he didn't know until someone he works with saw his daughter in law in passing in a grocery store with the new baby. You could say we all are doing this to manipulate him to leave her. And truth be known, we would throw a gala celebration in his honor if he ever did do that. But, ultimately no on even cares anymore about it just so long as they keep their drama and her narcissistic evil bitch behavior on their own property.

 

[GoodGrief3]

45 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

I have never heard those terms before but it perfectly explains what someone in my life does. Thanks!

You might want to read about borderline personality disorder as well. I do see on this board that NPD and BPD are used interchangeably at times. There is some crossover in traits (as there are with many mental illnesses), but there are some important differences too. The outlook for those with BPD is more positive if one can find good treatment.

There's an excellent book out there called _Understanding the Borderline Mother_ that really breaks it down.

Edited December 27, 2021 by GoodGrief3

[gardenmom5]

37 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

I am a little confused—- do people sometimes do this whole gray rock, info diet & boundaries to actually hurt & manipulate a person ?

Also agreeing with Rosie,

motivation, and there are 

10 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 

Meanwhile, three months later she is still all over social media claiming we flaunt our income. She had no idea what our income is or how we came to buy this house, and we have no direct contact with her at all. 

So I grey rock my brother because he will not shut his trap even though he knows exactly what kind of woman he is married too, and has destroyed his relationship with all five of his children who as adults have NOTHING to do with him or her and also grey rock the crap out of them. He has seven grandchildren and when the last one was born, he didn't know until someone he works with saw his daughter in law in passing in a grocery store with the new baby. You could say we all are doing this to manipulate him to leave her. And truth be known, we would throw a gala celebration in his honor if he ever did do that. But, ultimately no on even cares anymore about it just so long as they keep their drama and her narcissistic evil bitch behavior on their own property.

 

Does she get "supply" from her SM rants?  do her friends care and commiserate with her?

I'm sorry you have such a "charming" relative.  It's hard for other relatives, especially for mothers of the narc/narc-spouse.  

[gardenmom5]

Just now, GoodGrief3 said:

You might want to read about borderline personality disorder as well. I do see on this board that NPD and BPD are used interchangeably at times. There is some crossover in traits (as there are with many mental illnesses), but there are some important differences too. The outlook for those with BPD is more positive if one can find good treatment.

There are multiple types of personality disorders, and yes, people often lump all of them into NPD.  And no, they're not the same.  BorderlinePD can actually respond to Dialectical Behavior Therapy.  (it was developed to treat BPD.)  NPD . . not so much.

 

[saraha]

1 hour ago, Lovinglife123 said:

I am a little confused—- do people sometimes do this whole gray rock, info diet & boundaries to actually hurt & manipulate a person ?

I don’t do it to hurt my mom or my sister. I do it because the less they actually know about us, the less they have anything to say about anything. If they don’t know we are going on vacation, they can’t try to come.

 

My sister found out we were spending a week with friends in Wisconsin a couple of years ago and stopping for a weekend in Chicago, and was jealous because my kids love their “fake aunt”. So she drove 6 hours to the town where we were staying, called one of my kids for the name of the hotel (we were not diet info then) and “surprised” us! She got a room and told the kids any that wanted to could stay with her In her room and the next morning rewarded the kids who stayed with her to a trip to Dunkin’ Donuts without telling us. Then, while we were sight seeing, she saw a light was going to change and dh and I were bringing up the rear of our group of 9 and told the kids run! We’ll catch the light and tried to get them across the street leaving us behind! One of my older kids saw what was happening and stopped the younger ones from playing this “trick” on dh and I. It was a ridiculous weekend but we had saved up for this trip and couldn’t figure out how to get rid of her without just ending it. So, from then on no news about any traveling (which we actually haven’t done any) and no talking about Wisconsin friends. 
 

As far as gray rock, I do that with my mom now. I just make sympathetic noises and agree with whatever because if I express any kind of opinion it comes back to haunt me. Also, like I didn’t tell her either time we had Covid. The first time I told her after we were all better and she went through the roof. She was yelling about how she can’t trust me anymore and that I stole the opportunity for her to bring us soup, and basically be a hero. She said she can’t trust me to make good medical decisions about the kids. I didn’t tell her at all the second time we had it, since it did t affect her in anyway.

I have also forbidden anyone from telling my mom if I ever have to go to the hospital until I’m out or dead. She was horrible when my sister went to the emergency room. At one point she was telling the staff working on my sister in the e r that her blood sugar was getting low and she needed medical attention too. It got so bad that finally a nurse shoved a chair out into the hallway and gave her a mint from her pocket to get her to shut up. She was trying to get any employee walking by to get her some food from the cafeteria…

So they are not allowed to know my feelings, any plans, nothing personal about us at all now. Very superficial, but like I said, I’m not trying to punish them, they have just lost the right to that kind of information.

[Kassia]

8 minutes ago, saraha said:

 

So they are not allowed to know my feelings, any plans, nothing personal about us at all now. Very superficial, but like I said, I’m not trying to punish them, they have just lost the right to that kind of information.

Perfectly written.  

This is how we have handled my in-laws for many years.  It works well for us.  

[Dmmetler]

23 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Dr. Les Carter (surviving narcissism channel) refuses to have narcissists as patients.  The work just to stay ahead of the lie.   he'd rather help their victims.

My brother did therapy with his youngest daughter. After several sessions together, her therapist told her not to bring him back, and what he saw.  She moved out of his house and went no-contact.

One of my friends was told by her childrens' therapist that the best he could do was slapping Band-Aids on a hemorrhage until she got her kids out of the house  and limited contact with their bio dad, because the damage he was doing, without even trying, was far more than therapy could keep up with, and there was no way to work on past trauma when new ones were being created almost daily. 

 

Honestly, the best thing that happened for those kids was COVID hitting soon after Dad moved out (with strong encouragement from the local police, who had been called one time too many) because it gave them all a good excuse to limit contact to video calls for a few months and a chance to feel safe for the first time in quite awhile. 

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Also agreeing with Rosie,

motivation, and there are 

Does she get "supply" from her SM rants?  do her friends care and commiserate with her?

I'm sorry you have such a "charming" relative.  It's hard for other relatives, especially for mothers of the narc/narc-spouse.  

Oh yes, she has a following of snowed people from her church that just fall all over her poor, little bruised ego whenever her evil relatives "mistreat her". 🙄 Someday they will be on the receiving end of her viciousness. Historically, they change churches every two-three years because she eventually shows her true colors and creates an epic crisis that causes leadership to ask them to leave.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Faith-manor

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:

@Slache  Hmmmm do you think a manipulative individual(s) will use these same tactics to hurt you?  Rock greying, info diet etc.

Well, we are not interested in hearing about their life so grey rocking us is just fine. She creates so much drama that we really have no desire to be privy to their details.

I have no one else in my life grey rocking/info diet me that I know of. I am also not someone who feels entitled to information about others, nor am particularly curious and try to respect other people's privacy. So grey rocking would not only be of no never mind to me; it would also not work as a means of manipulation since I have no internalized need/desperation to have information to use against others.

[GoodGrief3]

3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

There are multiple types of personality disorders, and yes, people often lump all of them into NPD.  And no, they're not the same.  BorderlinePD can actually respond to Dialectical Behavior Therapy.  (it was developed to treat BPD.)  NPD . . not so much.

 

Yes! And that's actually why I do think it's important that we are cautious about lumping everyone into the NPD category. Dialectical Behavior Therapy can be a lifesaver. Still very very difficult to work with someone with BPD, but there is some hope.

Boundaries/techniques for those impacted by the behavior of people with NPD/BPD are going to be the same though, for the most part.

Edited December 28, 2021 by GoodGrief3

[gardenmom5]

5 hours ago, saraha said:

I’m not trying to punish them, they have just lost the right to that kind of information.

This.

 

Refer back to the narcissistic trait of "anything you say will be used against you."

Some use it maliciously,

some use it as gossip fodder for their friends because they have nothing to talk about without infringing on other people's lives.

[Murphy101]

 

On 12/25/2021 at 7:40 PM, Melissa Louise said:

The friend's reaction was a bit OTT. Like, what she overhead wasn't good, but it wasn't superbad. I doubt in real life it would make a friend cry. 

 

Well that’s a sad sac of crap friends you know then. It would make me cry to have anyone speak my friends like that.   And then it would make me furious. I had a hard time watching even without that part.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

8 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:

I am a little confused—- do people sometimes do this whole gray rock, info diet & boundaries to actually hurt & manipulate a person ?

I suppose they can and probably some do.

People do gaslighting (or use many other “methods”) for all kinds of reasons. A cheating husband for example might use gaslighting to deflect and deny and defend himself from his wife having suspicion for example. He might have no mental illness, but gaslighting comes very natural to many people.  He may genuinely have no idea he is gaslighting her or grey rocking or into dieting her.  He is just trying to get away with cheating.

We have all these fancy names for these things but they aren’t new concepts at all.  People have been managing (or mismanaging) relationships in these ways for centuries.