Omicron anecdata?

[bookbard]

Saw a friend today who got covid before Christmas and has been really ill. 50 something I guess? He has definitely lost a lot of weight and just looked grey. He said a week ago something changed and he's starting to feel better. Lost a lot of muscle mass and has had major lung issues but is focusing on building back strength now.

 

[KSera]

8 hours ago, bookbard said:

Lost a lot of muscle mass and has had major lung issues but is focusing on building back strength now.

Some people have had really good improvements by seeing a respiratory therapist for long Covid related breathing issues. Apparently there are exercises they teach that actually help.

[Amoret]

Forgotten lessons of disease control, Rampant Covid, Maybe we could reduce disease, and more (Covid is not Over Newsletter)

 

 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Amoret said:

Forgotten lessons of disease control, Rampant Covid, Maybe we could reduce disease, and more (Covid is not Over Newsletter)

 

 

Thanks, lots of good article links in there (and one particularly awful Atlantic one). If people were going to read just one, I might recommend it be this one:

Why So Quiet about Long COVID?

From which this graphic is taken that ought to give pause for people who think we need to move on because their first (or second or third) Covid infection was “mild” and so we should treat Covid like a cold. It’s feeling increasingly dystopian to me that entire countries are just looking the other way from this mounting disaster and pretending everything is fine. “Don’t Look Up”

 

 

[bookbard]

Thought this was interesting: https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/more-resilient-than-we-thought-during-lockdown

I was just reading about 3 researchers who used the lockdown to explore biodiversity in their own backyard. https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2024-02-10/biodiversity-hotspot-lockdown-housemates-brisbane-species/103210874

It made me think about how important it is to have interests and abilities before something like this happens.

[KSera]

A section of the latest YLE newsletter had a discussion and graphs of flu vs covid hospitalizations this winter that made me think of the discussion in this thread based on that article talking about the peak of flu hospitalization being higher than the peak of Covid hospitalizations. At the time, I had pointed out that was kind of missing the boat because the overall area under the curve is so, so much higher on the Covid graph despite that particular spike going a little higher. Well, this was interesting on YLE, because she showed that how those hospitalization graphs look depends a lot on which sources are being used. The one in that other article was based only on urban hospitals, which tend to have significantly higher Covid vaccination rates. When you look at all reporting hospitals, they looks very different.

 

[Ausmumof3]

Top story on ABC today 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-11/patients-catching-covid-hospitals-australia-infection-control/103442806

 

Twelve months later Australian hospitals have become a strange new battleground in the fight against COVID, with doctors and public health experts concerned that too many patients are catching the virus — and an alarming number are dying — as a result of inadequate infection control. Until recently, tools like contact tracing, testing, N95 respirators and good ventilation were mainstays of COVID management in healthcare settings. But in many hospitals they've been wound back or ditched in tandem with other community protections, putting patients and healthcare workers at risk and deterring others from seeking treatment.

Health departments insist the risk of catching COVID cannot be eliminated completely, and that hospitals maintain stringent measures to prevent infections and manage outbreaks. But senior healthcare workers in several states say vulnerable people — including transplant and oncology patients and others with compromised immune systems — are contracting COVID because even basic precautions are not being taken: a consequence, they say, of hospitals' failure to address airborne transmission, and the pervasive myth that COVID is "just a cold".

 

[bookbard]

4 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Top story on ABC today 

 

I came here to post this story! It was very good. 

[mommyoffive]

https://caitlinrivers.substack.com/p/outbreak-outlook-national-february-a15?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1017072&post_id=140457827&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo0MzgwODk0MCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MTQwNDU3ODI3LCJpYXQiOjE3MDc3NDM2MTYsImV4cCI6MTcxMDMzNTYxNiwiaXNzIjoicHViLTEwMTcwNzIiLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.169CiTsJ15jb7ajT_obVmAlwdoZyZ_Zxyek-FlJrIBk&r=q2z70&utm_medium=email

[mommyoffive]

https://peoplescdc.substack.com/p/submit-public-comment-to-the-cdc?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1004289&post_id=141580151&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=q2z70&utm_medium=email

[mommyoffive]

https://longcovidweekly.substack.com/p/long-covid-weekly-80-ampligen-clinical?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=999185&post_id=141584278&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=q2z70&utm_medium=email

[popmom]

On 2/10/2024 at 3:43 PM, Ausmumof3 said:

Top story on ABC today 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-11/patients-catching-covid-hospitals-australia-infection-control/103442806

 

Twelve months later Australian hospitals have become a strange new battleground in the fight against COVID, with doctors and public health experts concerned that too many patients are catching the virus — and an alarming number are dying — as a result of inadequate infection control. Until recently, tools like contact tracing, testing, N95 respirators and good ventilation were mainstays of COVID management in healthcare settings. But in many hospitals they've been wound back or ditched in tandem with other community protections, putting patients and healthcare workers at risk and deterring others from seeking treatment.

Health departments insist the risk of catching COVID cannot be eliminated completely, and that hospitals maintain stringent measures to prevent infections and manage outbreaks. But senior healthcare workers in several states say vulnerable people — including transplant and oncology patients and others with compromised immune systems — are contracting COVID because even basic precautions are not being taken: a consequence, they say, of hospitals' failure to address airborne transmission, and the pervasive myth that COVID is "just a cold".

 

I have wondered about this. My sister in law’s husband died from a hospital acquired COVID infection. It was devastating. He was admitted after an outpatient surgery. He had some issues with anesthesia. He wasn’t in the greatest health and refused vaccination, but he was only in his 60s. It was absolutely heartbreaking. I read stories occasionally about people being upset over hospitals starting to require masks again, and it makes me furious. 

[PronghornD]

CDC plans to drop five-day covid isolation guidelines (msn.com)

[KSera]

54 minutes ago, PronghornD said:

CDC plans to drop five-day covid isolation guidelines (msn.com)

😰😰😰

Oregon and California already did this, but it’s *horrible.* I just can’t believe this is where we are and everyone’s just going to throw up their hands and say oh well, nothing we can do. The population is just going to keep getting sicker and sicker. There has been a complete and utter lack of leader ship throughout this. They’re not even trying to pretend that this decision is because it makes any scientific sense or is actually okay for the health of the population, but they just give up:

“Public health has to be realistic,” said Michael T. Osterholm, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Minnesota. “In making recommendations to the public today, we have to try to get the most out of what people are willing to do. … You can be absolutely right in the science and yet accomplish nothing because no one will listen to you.”

They could have tried doing what public health is supposed to do, and worked hard to educate the public that this isn’t just like the flu or RSV (which people also shouldn’t be out just spreading around), and until we actually have a way to prevent the current high rate of chronic illness and disability post Covid, people need to work to get as few infections as possible because each one increases their risk of potentially permanent disability.

 

[Spryte]

5 hours ago, popmom said:

I have wondered about this. My sister in law’s husband died from a hospital acquired COVID infection. It was devastating. He was admitted after an outpatient surgery. He had some issues with anesthesia. He wasn’t in the greatest health and refused vaccination, but he was only in his 60s. It was absolutely heartbreaking. I read stories occasionally about people being upset over hospitals starting to require masks again, and it makes me furious. 

I am so sorry for your family’s loss. That is just heartbreaking, and feels unnecessary. Our most vulnerable people are in hospitals.

I have a friend who works in a local hospital, and masking is optional. She says she’s the only one masking, even while there’s a nasty bug going around — which she caught despite masking, and yep, tested positive for Covid immediately. It’s sad to think how many already-ill patients also caught it.

[Amoret]

Commentary here: The California “Department of Political Health” Mandates Covid Infection with Its New “One Day” Order (and How to Stop Them)

[kbutton]

I guess we’re never going to stop masking.

I don’t know what my younger one will be willing to do at college, but if he stops masking, we need to save pennies for almost certain disability instead of funding his college.

So much for having a life someday. 

[Amoret]

48 minutes ago, kbutton said:

So much for having a life someday. 

Indeed, those who are unwilling to accept exposure and take their chances with telomere shortening, mitochondrial damage, immune dysfunction, and so much more are widely considered to be the problem. It seems very dystopian.

Edited February 13 by Amoret

[KSera]

32 minutes ago, Amoret said:

It seems very dystopian.

Absolutely. People are ignoring reality completely and then acting like the others willing to face what the actual science clearly shows rather than accepting delusion are the ones with the problem. It’s the most bizarre time I’ve lived through. This news today feels pretty utterly despairing. 
 

The reporting makes it worse in that most people are just going to see “you don’t need to stay home anymore for Covid” which isn’t what it says either, and this guidance hasn’t even been released as official guidance yet (not until April), yet people will begin now (while we’re still in a surge). 

[Amoret]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

You can be absolutely right in the science and yet accomplish nothing because no one will listen to you.

And they're not even pretending that there is a firm scientific basis for this decision. Public health is supposed to be prescriptive, not descriptive.

I'll add that although the California order may be challenged, and there is public feedback to come for the CDC change, at least we aren't alone in our despair.

Edited February 13 by Amoret

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, PronghornD said:

CDC plans to drop five-day covid isolation guidelines (msn.com)

😠😠😠 @#$$%&&&&%$$#@#$%%&&%$#@@$%&

[Mom_to3]

I also came here to post about the proposed change in guidance - but you are already all over it. How can they be blind to the fact that the public isn't willing to do anything because public health leadership, including Jha, Walensky, Cohen etc. has done nothing but downplay the severity of covid for *years*!!! When covid is so much more infectious and mutates much more quickly than RSV and flu! We already know that even hospitals for those at highest risk are not willing to do more than follow CDC guidance - for the CDC to then keep reducing and eliminating the existing bare-bones guidance, with no scientific evidence, is utterly insane.

It makes life all the more dangerous for those of us who still try to avoid infection for one reason or another - more pressure from employers, schools, colleagues, friends. We have to hope that our N95 protects us all the time without fail, in an environment where we are continuously surrounded by highly infectious people. And of course, there are times we can't protect ourselves at all (dentist etc.)

When will people stop going along with this insanity? Are people too brain damaged from covid to realize what we are doing, not just at the individual level, but at the population level? 'Cause the scientific evidence I read is getting more and more worrisome, not more and more comforting. Am I missing something?

And also, the timing of the leak is interesting. It looks like the CDC had hoped to open this to public comment in April - at the time of the year when transmission has in recent years been at a low point. To hear about this now...is interesting.

I am stopping my rant.

[Happy2BaMom]

Two depressing articles just out:

Covid-19 behind thousands of excess deaths in US (note: 90% of these were not reported as C19)

Insomnia common months after even mild C19 infections (side note: reported insomnia after C19 is MUCH higher than insomnia reported by general population....by >50%)

For extra funsies (/s), see the accompanying link on these to the article detailing the shortness of breath that nearly half of those hospitalized with C19 experience months later...including kids.

**********************************************

I've become convinced that humanity is going to largely off itself due to it's own stupidity.

[kokotg]

Re: the CDC, DH the math teacher said, "I mean, I still recommend my students do their homework." Sigh. 

[Amoret]

Evil CDC shenanigans, Intrinsic severity of Covid, Do we care about seniors, and more

From Julia Doubleday (summarized in the post above):

The CDC’s desire to eliminate isolation is yet one more step toward disappearing the virus from public consciousness, because a government that isn’t fighting COVID-19, isn’t losing to COVID-19. If COVID is everywhere, COVID is nowhere. If the other kids at school all have a permanent cough, maybe my kid’s permanent cough is “normal”. So as hospitals remain overwhelmed, staffing shortages worsen, economies buckle, disability and long-term illness hits new records, kids miss school and workers lose their livelihoods, we’ll continue to do nothing more than turn to each other and wonder why. (source)

Edited February 16 by Amoret

[mommyoffive]

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/changing-covid-19-isolation?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=281219&post_id=141048766&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=q2z70&utm_medium=email

[Amoret]

I would like to see YLE provide a lot more evidence for the claim that "Spreading Covid-19 is less consequential these days."

This post is one of many I could point to that has links to study after study after study (times 100, in this case) about the impacts of Covid on the body.

Edited February 16 by Amoret

[Mom_to3]

8 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/changing-covid-19-isolation?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=281219&post_id=141048766&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=q2z70&utm_medium=email

Now do I recall correctly that she was advising the CDC on messaging in the past? A desire to resume this type of appointment may bias her reporting in her newsletter. She brings up some good points, but still tilts towards excusing the CDC for potentially changing guidelines. Changing guidelines to "meet people where they are" is insane. Among all our guidelines on nutrition, retirement savings, exercise - none of them "meet people where they are". Why should guidelines for covid be any different? 

 

[Faith-manor]

On 2/13/2024 at 6:06 PM, Happy2BaMom said:

Two depressing articles just out:

Covid-19 behind thousands of excess deaths in US (note: 90% of these were not reported as C19)

Insomnia common months after even mild C19 infections (side note: reported insomnia after C19 is MUCH higher than insomnia reported by general population....by >50%)

For extra funsies (/s), see the accompanying link on these to the article detailing the shortness of breath that nearly half of those hospitalized with C19 experience months later...including kids.

**********************************************

I've become convinced that humanity is going to largely off itself due to it's own stupidity.

I agree. Human kind is going to allow this to continue until the herd is thinned out, and hosts are not readily available for future mutations. I think within the next ten years, the death rate will outpace the birth rate on the planet. Covid isn't the only way we are killing ourselves. Climate Change is going to take out a billion or two as well.

[KSera]

10 hours ago, Amoret said:

 

I would like to see YLE provide a lot more evidence for the claim that "Spreading Covid-19 is less consequential these days."

 

Does anyone remember if she had a recent infection? The tongue-in-cheek sounding theory that this virus has a psychological affect on host behavior seems to be at work sometimes. Do you all recall the research earlier in the pandemic suggesting Covid suppresses interferon, which typically promotes sickness behavior, such as social withdrawal? With the resulting implication that one aspect of COVID’s success may be by making those that are infectious more likely to mix with other people than would typically be expected while sick. ( Host Manipulation Mechanisms of SARS-CoV-2) As random as that reference seems, it’s been coming back to me with some frequency lately as I see one by one, people who were previously mindful of Covid and not wanting to catch or spread it, convert to no longer caring about it once they actually do get it. Though  that could just as easily be described by the psychological tendency that I am currently forgetting the name of, but basically that exposure to something dangerous makes it more familiar and lessens the sense of danger surrounding it (even when it has not become any less dangerous). 
 

Anyway, that’s just random stream of consciousness that I got thinking of when I was reading that, but I agree that the “less consequential” statement is having the word “less” do an awful lot of heavy lifting. Getting bitten by a rabid bat is “less consequential” than it was before we had rabies shots. I wouldn’t say that means it’s not still some thing to be avoided when at all possible. At least rabies shots work pretty reliably, unlike long covid treatments. 

I think it’s an appalling failure of public health that when I share information about long Covid with my otherwise well-educated family, they’re always surprised to learn that it can be that bad or affects that many people or can affect people who had only mild illness and were young and healthy. This should be information that no one could have avoided hearing by now. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

I know of four people who’ve had Covid in the last two weeks after quite a lull. It coincides so nicely with the start back at school every time.

[Rebel]

I know more people right now who currently have Covid than I have at any other time during the pandemic. In addition to several friends, family, and students, I also have it along with my son, daughter-in-law, and both granddaughters.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Rebel said:

I know more people right now who currently have Covid than I have at any other time during the pandemic. In addition to several friends, family, and students, I also have it along with my son, daughter-in-law, and both granddaughters.

I’m sorry! I hope you are all back to 100% soon. 
 

I’ll be curious if we see that we are in a double peak kind of situation because it seemed like it had been going down and now I agree it seems like suddenly everyone has it again. I’ve also seen a surprising number of people who had it around November and are getting it again already now 😞. 

[bookbard]

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I know of four people who’ve had Covid in the last two weeks after quite a lull. It coincides so nicely with the start back at school every time.

We got a message from school that someone has Covid, luckily for us in the primary school. I wonder how many schools are still notifying parents when there is a case? Part of the reason I chose this school is that they have air purifiers and still enforce staying at home until testing negative for Covid. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

We got a message from school that someone has Covid, luckily for us in the primary school. I wonder how many schools are still notifying parents when there is a case? Part of the reason I chose this school is that they have air purifiers and still enforce staying at home until testing negative for Covid. 

Wow! That’s not happening here at all anymore. That would be such a difference. One thing that’s maddening is how often I’ll see air filters somewhere that are just sitting off to the side with the cord wrapped around them not even being used. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

We got a message from school that someone has Covid, luckily for us in the primary school. I wonder how many schools are still notifying parents when there is a case? Part of the reason I chose this school is that they have air purifiers and still enforce staying at home until testing negative for Covid. 

Wow that is good! 

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Rebel said:

I know more people right now who currently have Covid than I have at any other time during the pandemic. In addition to several friends, family, and students, I also have it along with my son, daughter-in-law, and both granddaughters.

I hope you all get better quickly 

[mommyoffive]

8 hours ago, bookbard said:

We got a message from school that someone has Covid, luckily for us in the primary school. I wonder how many schools are still notifying parents when there is a case? Part of the reason I chose this school is that they have air purifiers and still enforce staying at home until testing negative for Covid. 

We got an email recently from one thing the kids are in about someone who had Covid and I was surprised because I didn't know anyone did that anymore.  Another place we are involved with follows CDC guidelines on the 5 days of staying home.  

[Mom_to3]

more and more people with long-term illness leaving the workforce in the UK. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/17/record-long-term-sickness-bodes-ill-for-uk-economic-growth

Will businesses soon realize that they are screwed financially? 'Cause that's the only thing that could possibly lead to a turnaround in government policy.

[Acadie]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:22 AM, Amoret said:

Commentary here: The California “Department of Political Health” Mandates Covid Infection with Its New “One Day” Order (and How to Stop Them)

Love the title above! The Onion and The Vertlartnic on Twitter have helped me stay sane recently. 
 

And I do think it will be business interests and lawsuits that shift our approach to Covid eventually, because political leadership and public health apparently don’t exist anymore. 

19 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

Will businesses soon realize that they are screwed financially? 'Cause that's the only thing that could possibly lead to a turnaround in government policy.

 

Edited February 18 by Acadie

[KSera]

26 minutes ago, Acadie said:

The Onion and The Vertlartnic on Twitter have helped me stay sane recently. 

I only recently discovered Vertlartnic. Almost shared a couple on this thread recently. Such as…

 

[Happy2BaMom]

I've been behind on my reading, just saw this (from last August):

"SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, can cause lasting damage to energy production by mitochondria in many organs of the body. Stopping the virus from hijacking mitochondrial energy production may be a novel way to prevent serious complications from SARS-CoV-2 infection." Link here

Probably already covered here, but thought it was worth mentioning.

My PCP tells me (we occasionally still talk about C19, as she knows I'm interested in following the research) that while C19 is transmitted as a respiratory illness, it has also been classified as a vascular disease, with the ability to trigger severe inflammation in people. Somehow those last two parts seem to frequently get lost......

[KSera]

16 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

"SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, can cause lasting damage to energy production by mitochondria in many organs of the body. Stopping the virus from hijacking mitochondrial energy production may be a novel way to prevent serious complications from SARS-CoV-2 infection." Link here

 

Did you see the very significant research last month showing mitochondrial damage in those with long Covid and that when long Covid sufferers with PEM exercise, it actually damages their muscles? Huge for explaining the symptom experience. If only there was a good way to do as the study you post says, and stop the virus from hijacking mitochondria in the first place. 

[Happy2BaMom]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

Did you see the very significant research last month showing mitochondrial damage in those with long Covid and that when long Covid sufferers with PEM exercise, it actually damages their muscles? Huge for explaining the symptom experience. If only there was a good way to do as the study you post says, and stop the virus from hijacking mitochondria in the first place. 

No, I hadn't seen that, thanks for mentioning.

 

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

No, I hadn't seen that, thanks for mentioning.

 

This NPR interview about it is a good summary:

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/13/1224589127/a-discovery-in-the-muscles-of-long-covid-patients-may-explain-exercise-troubles

[Corraleno]

When reality sounds more like satire than the Onion, we know we're in trouble.

There's a new book out called We Want Them Infected, by Jonathan Howard. The title is an actual quote from Paul Alexander, an epidemiologist appointed to HHS in March 2020 who was heavily involved in determining the previous administration's covid policy. He, Scott Atlas, and the Great Barrington Declaration authors weren't objecting to lockdowns and distancing and masks because they thought they wouldn't work — they objected because they knew they would work and their explicit goal was to get as many people as possible infected as quickly as possible, in order to reach "herd immunity."

They insisted we could just sequester the elderly, let it rip in the rest of the population, and the pandemic would be over in a few months. They claimed that food could be delivered to the elderly while they were sequestered, but when asked how that could possibly be implemented on a national scale, Bhattacharya suggested the elderly could "just use Door Dash." If the Onion posted that, people would think it was hilarious satire, but that kind of idiocy was behind actual policy decisions that cost more than a million American lives.

Other proponents of "herd immunity" like Monica Ghandi at UCSF and Suneta Gupta at Oxford predicted "the end of the pandemic" so often that one scientist joked that they should create a Gupta Index to predict future waves because each of her declarations that "the pandemic is over" was followed by a major wave within weeks. Ghandi repeatedly insisted that there was no threat from variants, and when asked about it on a podcast she literally laughed and said "variants, schmariants," like some ditzy middle schooler. She repeatedly claimed that natural infection would provide life-long immunity, despite all evidence to the contrary, and when Omicron appeared she said she hoped as many people as possible would be infected with it, because that would finally achieve herd immunity. What actually happened is that another 400,000 Americans died, and instead of herd immunity we have millions suffering with long covid (Ghandi is "skeptical" about long covid and has recommended Benadryl as a treatment). 

The arrogance and hubris of a handful of people who thought they were so brilliant and infallible that they knew everything they needed to know about a brand new disease, who thought they had the right to risk the lives and long-term health of hundreds of millions of people on an unfounded hunch, is truly breathtaking. And you'd think the actual outcome would have humbled them, but instead they have all doubled down and continue to influence policy in various ways: Alexander, Bhattacharya, and another GBD author serve on a DeSantis advisory committee, and of course Joseph Ladapo, a signatory to the GBD, is now the vehemently anti-vax FL Surgeon General; Bhattacharya still claims that failure to follow the measures proposed in the GBD was "the biggest public health mistake we've ever made" and complains he was the victim of an organized conspiracy to discredit him; and Alexander is active in anti-vax and "medical freedom" groups and published a book claiming that the CDC, NIH, and WHO were part of a world-wide conspiracy "to overthrow President Trump."

And these idiots continue to be so influential that the CDC seems to have given up any hope of contradicting the lies and decided to just throw in the towel. Not only is that an absolutely pathetic response to the ongoing spread of covid, it sets a truly dangerous precedent for future pandemics — if you don't like what the science says, you can just lie over and over and claim that you're being victimized and the "truth" is being suppressed, and eventually enough people will believe you that the other side will just give up.

Edited February 18 by Corraleno

[Acadie]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

And these idiots continue to be so influential that the CDC seems to have given up any hope of contradicting the lies and decided to just throw in the towel. Not only is that an absolutely pathetic response to the ongoing spread of covid, it sets a truly dangerous precedent for future pandemics — if you don't like what the science says, you can just lie over and over and claim that you're being victimized and the "truth" is being suppressed, and eventually enough people will believe you that the other side will just give up.

I think they're paid handsomely to sow doubt and confusion, in service of corporate oligarchy. They profit personally and corporate oligarchs effectively control both politics and public health. 

But the result is that millions of Americans are developing chronic illness, becoming disabled and dying, just to prop up quarterly profits and the whims of sociopathic billionaires.

It doesn't even make economic sense beyond the extremely short term. We're getting and spending, but disabling our workforce and our children?? 

[bookbard]

22 minutes ago, Acadie said:

It doesn't even make economic sense beyond the extremely short term. We're getting and spending, but disabling our workforce and our children?? 

This is what I just don't get. Look at what is happening in the UK in terms of the workforce! It's a disaster. 

[kbutton]

16 minutes ago, bookbard said:

This is what I just don't get. Look at what is happening in the UK in terms of the workforce! It's a disaster. 

Shortage of workers? I haven’t seen much about this. 

[KSera]

4 hours ago, Acadie said:

It doesn't even make economic sense beyond the extremely short term. We're getting and spending, but disabling our workforce and our children?? 

This seems to be the way it goes when personal interests control policy. Politicians and business owners only seem to be about their own personal short term gains. It’s exactly what we see with climate change.
 

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

Shortage of workers? I haven’t seen much about this. 

Mom_to3 posted this article above:
 

On 2/17/2024 at 12:14 PM, Mom_to3 said:

more and more people with long-term illness leaving the workforce in the UK. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/17/record-long-term-sickness-bodes-ill-for-uk-economic-growth

Will businesses soon realize that they are screwed financially? 'Cause that's the only thing that could possibly lead to a turnaround in government policy.

I believe the last numbers I saw for the US was about 4 million out of the workforce due to long Covid.