Teen Culture

[thewellerman]

I would love to have a conversation about this, and how to talk to kids.  We have always homeschooled and have not allowed our children to use social media.  Our teenagers have full access to their phones and chromebooks, but they aren't in circles where issues like furries and school shootings and deviant p*rn are discussed. I know my oldest has regular chats with a few online friends who aren't homeschooled, so she does have that exposure.  Mostly, I think they complain about homework and talk about their shared interests.  They are IRL friends who don't live near each other.  In general, I have always made an effort to keep my kids aware of what their public school peers are doing, but with the pandemic and then moving, I'm out of touch.  

So, then I read things like this.  If it is the norm in some groups for kids to have multiple personalities, or detailed fantasies (be it sexual or just dress-up), and they are on their phones or video games all the time, and so so many of them are so dark and depressed, then how do I help my kids integrate with that? Why should/would I?  

What is teen culture these days?  Because it seems like it is just incredibly unhealthy.  

[saraha]

Listening. My always homeschooled teens don’t have social media and every time they say something completely out of the blue I ask where it came from and the response is always Pinterest or scratch. Because of these two sites my 4 younger kids were exposed to things way earlier than the oldest two. I also am not happy with dh letting them have smart phones instead of dumb phones but I lost that arguement.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Well, I honestly don't know how many teens actually do have those traits that you listed. And those that do, it doesn't mean that your children will necessarily gravitate towards that.

My 15 year old transitioned from homeschool to mainstream this year, and she found a group of friends who are stable, active, responsible, and happy. It's a really positive dynamic between them all.

I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

[MEmama]

DS has had essentially unfettered access to the internet for most of his life. He chose not to have social media, which has made certain things difficult like keeping up with sports schedules, classes, etc that rely on people having FB. He understands tracking and algorithms on a deep level, though, and doesn’t want any part of it. He’s not interested in pop culture per se and dislikes the culture of “liking” posts— the popularity contest, as it were. That said, he spends hours on YouTube and is no stranger to the vastness of information available online. We’ve trusted him to make good decisions; I am far from naive and I do know he’s watched things I wouldn’t prefer, but I’m not interested in sheltering him and in fact think it does a massive disservice.

The things of concern in the OP weren’t my kid's reality at all. I was far more dysfunctional, moody, rebellious and less informed than the kids I know today. 
 

I worry about kids who grow up sheltered only to be released into the wild at 18 without any experience or wisdom of how to navigate. If anything is “new” it’s not “kids today”, it’s the idea that it is healthy to hide them away and send them out unaware of their surroundings.

My opinion based on my experiences only, of course. You do you and all that. 🙂 

[bolt.]

With my teen (homeschooled Jr High, public High School) I find her very accepting and just blasé about all sorts of issues that would have been outside of norms when I was a teen. She just doesn't seem to have any expectations at all. So if she meets a real person with something (like multiple personalities, or a rich fantasy life, or a strong interest in gaming, or whatever) then, clearly that person exists and is telling the truth about themself. So that means (to her) that that's just the way life is -- full of variety. Interesting, not alarming.

It's not so much that the things you list are normal in terms of 'common place' or 'frequent' -- but it's definitely normal in terms of 'there's lots of ways to be a person'. She does see some of these interesting ways of being normal online through Instagram personalities who are drawing attention to themselves via their unique characteristics. That seems like a safe way to explore and be curious about such things.

It *is* common for teens to be aware of their mental health and to talk about it openly. Many of them are depressed in terms of what would be diagnosed as depression in an adult client, but professionals who work with teens assure me that it's more that the moodiness that is common in teens shares characteristics with depression, but it is a developmental stage more often than it is an outright expression of a disorder. (It's enhanced by the fact that all current teens have been living with a pandemic for almost two years. Symptoms of depression are not unexpected population-wide in these circumstances.)

She also knows that porn exists and that school shootings happen regularly. Those seem like different issues. More like awareness of current events than aspects of her peer group.

I don't know why someone would consider openness and a sense of welcome for all sorts of people to be unhealthy. I wouldn't want to avoid integrating between teens and their peers on that basis.

[lewelma]

I have focused on 2 things:

1) You can't unsee, so be deliberate with what you choose to watch.

2) Google tracks your searches, so click on stuff that you want more of. Don't click on stuff just to be curious but you don't want your feed populated with.

These two guidelines have made a massive difference to how he manages his online interactions. 

We also did a massive 8 month project on conformity using Jane Austin's novels. We compared and contrasted the internal and external pressure to conform that the characters experienced with what today's teens experience. Three hours per day reading, discussing, arguing, researching, writing. It was a great way to open up lines of communication with him concerning his friends and what they are facing. He often references what he learned and is now able to quite effectively evaluate what he sees, reads, and experiences in teen culture. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by lewelma

[skimomma]

I have an 18yo that was always homeschooled but only had schooled friends due to an utter lack of high school homeschoolers in our area.  She was part of a "friend group" at the local high school even though she did not attend school.  She did attend dances, sporting events, and anything else her friends could smuggle her into.  She has always had access to social media, with lessening levels of supervision as she got older.  From what we talk about, being around when engaging with her friends, and just general observation, I don't find "teen culture" to be much different than it always has been.  I think teens are typically more open and informed than we were.  We know some teens that are glued to their phones and some who are not.  Just like my own peers where some were glued to the TV, video games, etc.... and some that were not.  Dd's group did a lot of engaging on social media but rarely was it what I consider to be unhealthy.  She has had friends that struggled with mental health (as did I), she knows people that engage in activities or interests that might be harmful/unhealthy (as did I), and she talks about hard things with her friends (as did I).

I don't know how old your teens are but I certainly did not help or hinder my dd's integration with other teens.  I'm not even sure how I would do either, even if I wanted to.  And what would be the point?  They turn into adults and will be part of this culture one way or another.  

[thewellerman]

I did mention my kids have full access to their chromebooks and phones, and that includes YouTube.  We have had basic conversations about tracking and safety, and even about p*rn.  They are not restricted from people or friends, and they are encouraged to be open and welcoming to all sorts of people.  

However, we have been living through a pandemic, and we moved, and we have been home.  So, I am asking WHAT is teen culture like because the word on the street is pretty shocking.  

[thewellerman]

It is true that they will live in and be part of the culture which is why I want to know what it is.  There are a lot of things mentioned here that my kids know about (school shootings), but they never experienced a drill or going to school in spite of a threat.  That is a formative and shared experience that I think is helpful and relevant for my kids to consider.  

[MEmama]

16 minutes ago, thewellerman said:

It is true that they will live in and be part of the culture which is why I want to know what it is.  There are a lot of things mentioned here that my kids know about (school shootings), but they never experienced a drill or going to school in spite of a threat.  That is a formative and shared experience that I think is helpful and relevant for my kids to consider.  

In general my perception is that it’s not much different. Less angst-y than Gen X, definitely better informed, more worldly. Better equipped with the language to self advocate and to sort through the complexities of finding ones space in the world. Much more open and accepting. Pandemic realities aside, this generation seems willing to take on the world— they understand the enormity of the climate crisis, humanitarian and ecological disasters and the very real threat to US (and therefore, worldwide to an extent) democracy. They know how to use tools to help them figure out solutions. They see right through the BS.

We purposely went out of our way to expose DS to pop culture before he was interested. We watched shows together that he wouldn’t have watched on his own (but that we knew he would enjoy), particularly shows and movies that are commonly referenced. We intentionally discuss the news and issues that concern young people. It was important to us that he understand modern references as he began to navigate the world on his own. We are an ultra liberal, open minded family that doesn’t shy away from language or uncomfortable topics, so YMMV.

[Sneezyone]

I don’t know any teens with tics, walking each other in the hallways on collars, or otherwise engaging in any of the other ‘trends’ mentioned here, including rampant identification as trans. I have asked my children about this and they both looked at me like I had seven heads. I would expect that from DS who is primarily interested in niche subcultures related to gaming and anime (only watches YouTube, still has parent controls, no other SM) but DD, who identifies strongly with the LGBTQIA community and has a TikTok and Facebook account (limited postings, small following),and has a very diverse group of friends felt likewise. They basically told me to go back to my political news, they’ll let me know if anything comes up.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Sneezyone

[KSera]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

 he spends hours on YouTube and is no stranger to the vastness of information available online. We’ve trusted him to make good decisions; I am far from naive and I do know he’s watched things I wouldn’t prefer, but I’m not interested in sheltering him and in fact think it does a massive disservice.

I'm concerned about the wide exposure of teens to the particularly damaging forms of porn that are prevalent online today. The often violent and increasingly disturbing material that kids are exposed to actually changes their brains and sexual response and does have many very negative impacts, including on those that haven't even watched any themselves, but are on the receiving end of the behavior of people who have gotten some of their sex education from watching v!olent p&rn 😢. It is from that perspective that I see a "nothing is off limits" internet policy as a massive disservice both to the kids themselves and to the rest of society. If we could scrub the internet of all the disgusting stuff, that policy might not be so harmful.

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

With my teen (homeschooled Jr High, public High School) I find her very accepting and just blasé about all sorts of issues that would have been outside of norms when I was a teen. She just doesn't seem to have any expectations at all. So if she meets a real person with something (like multiple personalities, or a rich fantasy life, or a strong interest in gaming, or whatever) then, clearly that person exists and is telling the truth about themself. So that means (to her) that that's just the way life is -- full of variety. Interesting, not alarming.

It's not so much that the things you list are normal in terms of 'common place' or 'frequent' -- but it's definitely normal in terms of 'there's lots of ways to be a person'. She does see some of these interesting ways of being normal online through Instagram personalities who are drawing attention to themselves via their unique characteristics. That seems like a safe way to explore and be curious about such things.

I see this way of looking at some of these issues as very common and understandable in people who don't have any kids experiencing some of these issues themselves. Some of these things that seem like just "lots of ways to be a person" are not positive things for the young person actually affected by them. Kids who have acquired severe tics after watching the tic tocs about them, those that have developed multiple personalities such that they are not functional in the real world and can't hold a job, those that are cutting because that's what their social media group does with anxiety. These may all be things that people not experiencing them can just be accepting of, but that doesn't make them benign "interesting" things and not a concern for those who are directly affected.

[lewelma]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

I see this way of looking at some of these issues as very common and understandable in people who don't have any kids experiencing some of these issues themselves. Some of these things that seem like just "lots of ways to be a person" are not positive things for the young person actually affected by them. Kids who have acquired severe tics after watching the tic tocs about them, those that have developed multiple personalities such that they are not functional in the real world and can't hold a job, those that are cutting because that's what their social media group does with anxiety. These may all be things that people not experiencing them can just be accepting of, but that doesn't make them benign "interesting" things and not a concern for those who are directly affected.

My younger son and I have had many conversations about when edgy behaviour actual is or becomes mental illness. This is a very tricky distinction and a sliding scale.  However, my son has definitely seen examples where the line has been crossed, but the person doesn't see it.

Edited December 17, 2021 by lewelma

[prairiewindmomma]

🙄

I have three teens, two in public school and one at public university. We don’t have any restrictions on social media, nor do most of their friends. Oldest never went to public school, the other two have had mixed public/homeschool experiences (some years in each, some friends still in each) and I will say personality drives behavior much more than where their schooling is located. There is nothing morally superior about homeschooling. For real. I think that’s a horribly snobbish/fear based stereotype I hear in homeschooling circles that is not based in reality. In my circle, it’s actually the teen under tight parental control that is more likely to rebel and have bad consequences—unexpected late teen pregnancy, secret substance abuse, broken family relationships. They either don’t know how to handle freedom or they are so desperate to get it that they do so without thought to long term plans.
 

I really, really don’t think the average public schooled teen has multiple personalities or is deviant. That’s just ridiculous. 
 

What is “normal” teen culture? Playing in sports or band or participating in clubs, watching videos, finding niche interests, and talking with friends. 
 

[lewelma]

Just last night my son asked me if it was OK to make himself feel pain (by pinching his leg hard) to stop the nausea he was having (he is having some side effects of the antibiotics due to getting his wisdom teeth removed). Clearly he knew that some people inflict pain for a purpose and that it can be a negative behaviour (but he didn't tell me how much he knew and I didn't ask). So we had a good conversation about where the line is, how it is a sliding scale, and what he needs to look for to make sure his decisions lead to positive outcomes. 

We have a very open line of communication and he is willing to ask the tough questions knowing that I don't judge and don't have all the answers. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by lewelma

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I have focused on 2 things:

1) You can't unsee, so be deliberate with what you choose to watch.

2) Google tracks your searches, so click on stuff that you want more of. Don't click on stuff just to be curious but you don't want your feed populated with.

These two guidelines have made a massive difference to how he manages his online interactions. 

We also did a massive 8 month project on conformity using Jane Austin's novels. We compared and contrasted the internal and external pressure to conform that the characters experienced with what today's teens experience. Three hours per day reading, discussing, arguing, researching, writing. It was a great way to open up lines of communication with him concerning his friends and what they are facing. He often references what he learned and is now able to quite effectively evaluate what he sees, reads, and experiences in teen culture. 

I did talk about algorithms with my oldest. We also did a unit on conformity in 8th but it wasn’t Austin-based. I think I shared it here? We incorporated history, science, literature and music to explore norms, how they’re established, what they’re based on, as well as when and why we should deviate from them. Those are definitely important, ongoing, conversations to have.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Pam in CT]

What I find hard to grapple with is how the edges of "social media" keep moving.

It's not just Facebook / Twitter / Instagram / TikTok that are targeting accounts, datamining them and "learning" that they're young teens, and funneling them from Point A (for example, a "like" on a funny meme about dieting; or a "share" of a slightly-snarky political comment) to Point B (another meme about extreme dieting; or a darker & more militant meme in the same political direction) to Point C (offering up an "affinity group" as something you might be interested in; or identifying that account as a possible "Friend" to a stranger).  That *is* how funneling works, and Instagram can take an idly curious teen from A -> M within days.  Ordinary teen angst -> idly googling SSRIs -> considering-suicide accounts -> "affinity groups" where such ideation is actively egged on by trolls who get their jollies that way.

But it's not just those known giants that do the funneling game. Pinterest, youtube, gaming sites, craft sites, spotify, all kinds of random corners of the internet do it too.

*Google tracks our searches.*  Google "learns" who we are, and makes its money by delivering our habits to other sites.   

 

If we live in the world enough to use the Internet, it isn't really possible to opt out of having our data mined.  We can dial it back somewhat, by refraining from "liking" and "sharing" and otherwise engaging with all of those feedback buttons.  But if we use search engines, and GPS systems, and streaming services, and credit cards... we are being data-mined and targeted. We just are.  And so are our teens, homeschooled or public schooled or shi-shi private schools.

So it's essential to *teach them how it works* and for them to be able to *recognize the funnel as it sweeps them.*

 

 

Exhibit B of "conversations I wish I didn't have to have with my kids, but do"

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Just last night my son asked me if it was OK to make himself feel pain (by pinching his leg hard) to stop the nausea he was having (he is having some side effects of the antibiotics due to getting his wisdom teeth removed). Clearly he knew that some people inflict pain for a purpose and that it can be a negative behaviour (but he didn't tell me how much he knew and I didn't ask). So we had a good conversation about where the line is, how it is a sliding scale, and what he needs to look for to make sure his decisions lead to positive outcomes. 

We have a very open line of communication and he is willing to ask the tough questions knowing that I don't judge and don't have all the answers. 

 

Exhibit A: the holocaust.

There's a LOT of conversations I wish I didn't have to have.  But we do. That's how it goes.

[rebcoola]

I mean my kid is a furry.  She is a homeschooled kid she mostly plays on Roblox.  She now has discord to chat with friends about furry stuff.  She doesn't actually identify as an animal or walk people on leashes or anything like that neither do any of the other kids or adults.  Their is an occasional weirdo just like here and mods or users handle it.  They talk about furry stuff just like other kids talk about marvel or d&d or whatever.  They show of their drawings and share tips.   DD has gotten quite good at the making of the costumes which is quite hard so something kids will ask her to make a head or tails from a drawing they made.  

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I did talk about algorithms with my oldest. 

My ds is very very careful with his feed. He only wants positive news, so he has trained every site he uses to give him science news like astronomy, inventions, exciting discoveries. He will often show me his great feeds and ask to see mine, which are horrible which makes him laugh because he has fixed them before for me and then they decay again because I'm not careful. He loves feeling superior in this realm. He knows how to use DuckDuckGo, or incognito mode to look up stuff that he wants kept off the algorithms. Clearly, he is hyper aware that everything he does on the internet is being tracked.  I think this is an incredibly valuable skill that he will use forever.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

My ds is very very careful with his feed. He only wants positive news, so he has trained every site he uses to give him science news like astronomy, inventions, exciting discoveries. He will often show me his great feeds and ask to see mine, which are horrible which makes him laugh because he has fixed them before for me and then they decay again because I'm not careful. He loves feeling superior in this realm. He knows how to use DuckDuckGo, or incognito mode to look up stuff that he wants kept off the algorithms. Clearly, he is hyper aware that everything he does on the internet is being tracked.  I think this is an incredibly valuable skill that he will use forever.

DD feels likewise. Her feed is naturally populated that way tho b/c she only likes and shares physical comedy and dance challenge videos. I know this b/c she keeps trying to get me to do one. No. Just no. 🤣🤦🏽‍♀️

Edited December 17, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

I have focused on 2 things:

1) You can't unsee, so be deliberate with what you choose to watch.

2) Google tracks your searches, so click on stuff that you want more of. Don't click on stuff just to be curious but you don't want your feed populated with.

These two guidelines have made a massive difference to how he manages his online interactions. 

We also did a massive 8 month project on conformity using Jane Austin's novels. We compared and contrasted the internal and external pressure to conform that the characters experienced with what today's teens experience. Three hours per day reading, discussing, arguing, researching, writing. It was a great way to open up lines of communication with him concerning his friends and what they are facing. He often references what he learned and is now able to quite effectively evaluate what he sees, reads, and experiences in teen culture. 

This is excellent. 

 

[lewelma]

4 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Exhibit B of "conversations I wish I didn't have to have with my kids, but do"

Oh, WOW. I found this to be a very positive story which is why I shared it. He came to me. We had an incredibly positive discussion about something he was experiencing - is pinching to stop nausea OK?  That is a valid physical and mental health questions. He did not hide it from me, and he wasn't sure if it was OK or not because he didn't want to develop bad habits. He left the conversation informed and empowered. So I *completely* disagree that this is a "conversation I wish I didn't have to have with my kids, but do." We both found it a very interesting intellectual discussion with nuance that was worth parsing. 

[Pam in CT]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Oh, WOW. I found this to be a very positive story which is why I shared it. He came to me. We had an incredibly positive discussion about something he was experiencing - is pinching to stop nausea OK?  That is a valid physical and mental health questions. He did not hide it from me, and he wasn't sure if it was OK or not because he didn't want to develop bad habits. He left the conversation informed and empowered. So I *completely* disagree that this is a "conversation I wish I didn't have to have with my kids, but do." We both found it a very interesting intellectual discussion with nuance that was worth parsing. 

Oh, it *is* an extremely positive story. 

Of very-functional adaptation to a very-broken world.  I wish we didn't live in a world where skills like your son's are necessary to keep the "feed" positive and life-affirming.

It speaks volumes, that your son initiated it with you.  I just wish we didn't live in a world where kids -- most of whom don't have the skills and resources that your son does -- are sliced and diced and sold and led into extremely bleak and dark places the way they are. 

But we do live in that world, and so do the kids, so we need to teach them about it.

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, thewellerman said:

I did mention my kids have full access to their chromebooks and phones, and that includes YouTube.  We have had basic conversations about tracking and safety, and even about p*rn.  They are not restricted from people or friends, and they are encouraged to be open and welcoming to all sorts of people.  

However, we have been living through a pandemic, and we moved, and we have been home.  So, I am asking WHAT is teen culture like because the word on the street is pretty shocking.  

Depends a lot on context. There's no single teen culture. 

I'll tell you my now young adults experiences with the digital world, because that's how the less wholesome parts of the cultures spread. 

Please don't quote. 

Liberal family/area. Not high socio economic family but mixing with such. 

DC 1 - lots of exposure to the internet from ten. Mainly via Minecraft. Unproblematic till 14. Then exposure to lots of homo and biphobia online, follower by internet- mediated sudden onset dysphoria. Has resolved after treatment. Child now mostly engages with independent games, a lot less social media. Is part of a punk subculture which is pretty in line with our values, actually. 

DC2 - no exposure to the internet till 13. Internet became a positive in terms of finding gay role models (tended to be lesbian couples raising children and into healthy living). Also used internet for fan fiction - I needed to keep an eye on this, because there is a lot of adult only content on fan fic sites. Insta feeds into some pre-existing anxiety but generally this child ( an extrovert) has navigated the digital culture beautifully. She heavily curated her exposure as an older teen.

DC3 - late to social media. Heavily and negatively impacted by Tumblr culture. Plays a role in mental illness. 

If I could draw one thought from the kids' experience of digital culture, it would be that the more aggressively and positively you curate your exposure, the better the outcome. 

 

[lewelma]

10 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

But we do live in that world, and so do the kids, so we need to teach them about it.

Yes this world has it's challenges, but then I think about Oliver Twist, The Jungle, or Grapes of Wrath. Life is always tough. We might argue that it is tougher now mentally/emotionally/spiritually, but it is certainly easier physically. My ds knows he will be warm and fed tonight. Yes, he has to deal with a new reality, but he also knows that there is no utopia so don't look for it. Learn and adapt to what life gives you. Embrace the now and focus on the positive things happening in your life. This is what I teach him.

Edited December 17, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

the more aggressively and positively you curate your exposure, the better the outcome. 

Completely agree. Beautifully said. 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, thewellerman said:

It is true that they will live in and be part of the culture which is why I want to know what it is.  There are a lot of things mentioned here that my kids know about (school shootings), but they never experienced a drill or going to school in spite of a threat.  That is a formative and shared experience that I think is helpful and relevant for my kids to consider.  

I want to circle back to this since I mentioned police patrolling my kid’s school and I also said that was reflective of greater society. I was referring to “adult” society. If you live in a world where you’ve never had to give thought to situational awareness around you, bless you. Here, we have antivax protestors storming malls, outside schools, and outside government buildings screaming stuff and sometimes carrying weapons. We were at Trader Joe’s and some lady was screaming at the cashier. People are nuts and it’s that anger and aggression and hate that I see spilling over into schools…because they are learning it from their parents and from other “leaders”.

 

[Terabith]

53 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I don’t know any teens with tics, walking each other in the hallways on collars, or otherwise engaging in any of the other ‘trends’ mentioned here, including rampant identification as trans. I have asked my children about this and they both looked at me like I had seven heads. I would expect that from DS who is primarily interested in niche subcultures related to gaming and anime (only watches YouTube, still has parent controls, no other SM) but DD, who identifies strongly with the LGBTQIA community and has a TikTok and Facebook account (limited postings, small following),and has a very diverse group of friends felt likewise. They basically told me to go back to my political news, they’ll let me know if anything comes up.

I do have a teen who has developed tics over the pandemic, and honestly, I don't know if it's a result of suggestibility from a friend with Tourettes/ social media or if it is the result of their anxiety and what not.  Neurologist also doesn't know, and we are just ignoring it.  I mean, my kids have issues and both have severe anxiety, tho younger one deals with it well. 

There is a fair amount of obsession with labels for sexuality.  

But, I don't see it as dysfunctional teen culture, or even that this in particular is part of teen culture.  I think there are a lot of niches.  I don't think teen culture as a thing is any worse than it was for late Gen X/ Xennial, though there is a lot more tolerance.  There's a lot less patience with misogyny.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Terabith said:

I do have a teen who has developed tics over the pandemic, and honestly, I don't know if it's a result of suggestibility from a friend with Tourettes/ social media or if it is the result of their anxiety and what not.  Neurologist also doesn't know, and we are just ignoring it.  I mean, my kids have issues and both have severe anxiety, tho younger one deals with it well. 

There is a fair amount of obsession with labels for sexuality.  

But, I don't see it as dysfunctional teen culture, or even that this in particular is part of teen culture.  I think there are a lot of niches.  I don't think teen culture as a thing is any worse than it was for late Gen X/ Xennial, though there is a lot more tolerance.  There's a lot less patience with misogyny.  

I'd 100% disagree and say it's way more misogynist. I've never seen as much woman hatred in my life before that last five years. 

[Rosie_0801]

With dd I explain pretty much everything and focus on health; what Lewelma was saying about "you are what you eat," figuratively as well as literally.  Knowing weird or ugly stuff happens and understanding it to some degree doesn't mean you have to feed it to yourself on a regular basis.

I also focus a lot on boundaries, what is and isn't our business and what does or does not demonstrate a respect for our boundaries. 

[Shoeless]

45 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

the more aggressively and positively you curate your exposure, the better the outcome

Here, here. 

I am starting to become a broken record on this topic. Heavily curate social media. Spend a lot of time outside of that space. You will feel so much better.

Anecdotally, I have noticed that my gen x friends are not on social media much anymore. It's like we all came to the same conclusion about sm at the same time: this stuff is bad for you and turns one into a jerk.

[Idalou]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

DS has had essentially unfettered access to the internet for most of his life. He chose not to have social media, which has made certain things difficult like keeping up with sports schedules, classes, etc that rely on people having FB. He understands tracking and algorithms on a deep level, though, and doesn’t want any part of it. He’s not interested in pop culture per se and dislikes the culture of “liking” posts— the popularity contest, as it were. That said, he spends hours on YouTube and is no stranger to the vastness of information available online. We’ve trusted him to make good decisions; I am far from naive and I do know he’s watched things I wouldn’t prefer, but I’m not interested in sheltering him and in fact think it does a massive disservice.

The things of concern in the OP weren’t my kid's reality at all. I was far more dysfunctional, moody, rebellious and less informed than the kids I know today. 
 

I worry about kids who grow up sheltered only to be released into the wild at 18 without any experience or wisdom of how to navigate. If anything is “new” it’s not “kids today”, it’s the idea that it is healthy to hide them away and send them out unaware of their surroundings.

My opinion based on my experiences only, of course. You do you and all that. 🙂 

But if he understands algorithms on a deep level, he must realize he's being tracked and is subjected to youtube's own algorithm and is already a 'part of it'

Edited December 17, 2021 by Idalou

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Here, here. 

I am starting to become a broken record on this topic. Heavily curate social media. Spend a lot of time outside of that space. You will feel so much better.

Anecdotally, I have noticed that my gen x friends are not on social media much anymore. It's like we all came to the same conclusion about sm at the same time: this stuff is bad for you and turns one into a jerk.

It really is not good. 

If I could think of some way to save Spotify and ditch the internet altogether, I would!

Music on demand keeps me tethered. 

[Doodlebug]

A large online social group of teens with no dominant shared interest and who have some cover of anonymity is nowhere I want to be.  I learned that from DS.  😉 

From his experience, online social groups of teens which grant some level of anonymity and no dominant shared interest tend to devolve into emotional rescue missions.  The cycle of break-down and rescue involves a great deal of emotional investment from the group and is a cycle that spirals only in one direction as needs must heighten to capture the hearts of those in the group.  

However, where online social groups are grounded in shared interests, and with friends he knows in real life, DS has found real enjoyment there.  

So, I think where any teen can remove themselve from a generic idea of "teen culture" and find their niche interests, that's foundational for healthy relationships be they online or irl.  However, social engagement online is heavily diluted by DS's other interests.  That matters, too.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Doodlebug

[Rosie_0801]

I read 'Queen Bees and Wannabes' to dd when she started public school. At times, when she comes out with stuff about the peers she didn't choose, I remind her that what she's seeing is more likely to be a public facade than the real person.

[KSera]

56 minutes ago, Terabith said:

There's a lot less patience with misogyny.  

I see the opposite. That's one of the things I think has gone backwards the most in the past 5-10 years.

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

🙄

I really, really don’t think the average public schooled teen has multiple personalities or is deviant. That’s just ridiculous. 

What is “normal” teen culture? Playing in sports or band or participating in clubs, watching videos, finding niche interests, and talking with friends. 
 

There's a difference between what the "average" teen is like, and what also exists in sizable numbers such that it affects an awful lot of people and families. If you only have teens who fit a vanilla version of "normal" be grateful but know that doesn't mean it's everyone's experience. I know a lot, lot of parents who can only wish that their teen's culture was just healthy and wholesome, playing sports or band, talking with friends, etc. I certainly know those families as well, but it's not the reality for many others.

7 minutes ago, Doodlebug said:

A large online social group of teens with no dominant shared interest and who have some cover of anonymity is nowhere I want to be.  I learned that from DS.  😉 

From his experience, online social groups of teens which grant some level of anonymity and no dominant shared interest tend to devolve into emotional rescue missions.  The cycle of break-down and rescue involves a great deal of emotional investment from the group and is a cycle that spirals only in one direction as needs must heighten to capture the hearts of those in the group.  

However, where online social groups are grounded in shared interests, and with friends he knows in real life, DS has found real enjoyment there.  

So, I think where any teen can remove themselve from a generic idea of "teen culture" and find their niche interests, that's foundational for healthy relationships be they online or irl.  However, social engagement online is heavily diluted by DS's other interests.  That matters, too.

I think this is all spot on, including the emotional rescue missions. Online friend groups where the kids know eachother IRL are an entirely different dynamic that is much healthier, IME. Of course, that can go the other way for some kids when bullying is involved, but for us, known online social groups don't devolve into the super emotionally unhealthy stuff in the same way anonymous groups tend to.

[Sneezyone]

21 minutes ago, KSera said:

I see the opposite. That's one of the things I think has gone backwards the most in the past 5-10 years.

There's a difference between what the "average" teen is like, and what also exists in sizable numbers such that it affects an awful lot of people and families. If you only have teens who fit a vanilla version of "normal" be grateful but know that doesn't mean it's everyone's experience. I know a lot, lot of parents who can only wish that their teen's culture was just healthy and wholesome, playing sports or band, talking with friends, etc. I certainly know those families as well, but it's not the reality for many others.

I think this is all spot on, including the emotional rescue missions. Online friend groups where the kids know eachother IRL are an entirely different dynamic that is much healthier, IME. Of course, that can go the other way for some kids when bullying is involved, but for us, known online social groups don't devolve into the super emotionally unhealthy stuff in the same way anonymous groups tend to.

.01% of 300 million people is a sizable number. Is it enough to freak out over? How does that compare to my mother's generation of hippies (which my grandparents/great-grandparents roundly denounced)? There's evidence from the social media companies themselves that there are detrimental effects on teen girls specifically (related to body image and mental health/depression). I believe that evidence. I just have not seen it and think many of the things we've talked about here (curating newsfeeds, information/teaching about how the algorithms work, open parental discussions) make a difference. There were a whole lot of clueless and/or crappy parents 60 years ago, 40 years ago, 20 years ago and now. That's the norm. I don't think cocooned children/teens/adults is the norm at all.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Sneezyone

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

.01% of 300 million people is a sizable number. Is it enough to freak out over? ow does that compare to my mother's generation of hippies (which my grandparents/great-grandparents roundly denounced)? There's evidence from the social media companies themselves that there are detrimental effects on teen girls specifically (related to body image and mental health/depression). I believe that evidence. I just have not seen it and think many of the things we've talked about here (curating newsfeeds, information/teaching about how the algorithms work, open parental discussions) make a difference. There were a whole lot of clueless and/or crappy parents 60 years ago, 40 years ago, 20 years ago and now. That's the norm. I don't think cocooned teens/adults is the norm at all.

I get it that for some people, it's not part of their experience, so seems very fringe. It depends heavily on the circle your kids find themselves in. I'm saying in my world, this isn't just one kid out of a group of kids. These kinds of things are affecting whole social groups of kids and in a group of 4 families that I meet with frequently, whose kids are each in their own social groups, all 4 families have at least one kid affected by the kinds of things we're talking about. All four families are very involved with their kids and talk with them a lot. None are clueless or crappy parents. That wasn't enough to overcome the online social influence. The conversation feels to me kind of like people saying eating disorders aren't a big thing and aren't enough to freak out over because they have never had a kid with an eating disorder and don't know of anyone else who does (which does not mean that no one they know actually is dealing with it). With an added side of blaming the parents for their affected kids' disorders.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

I get it that for some people, it's not part of their experience, so seems very fringe. It depends heavily on the circle your kids find themselves in. I'm saying in my world, this isn't just one kid out of a group of kids. These kinds of things are affecting whole social groups of kids and in a group of 4 families that I meet with frequently, whose kids are each in their own social groups, all 4 families have at least one kid affected by the kinds of things we're talking about. All four families are very involved with their kids and talk with them a lot. None are clueless or crappy parents. That wasn't enough to overcome the online social influence. The conversation feels to me kind of like people saying eating disorders aren't a big thing and aren't enough to freak out over because they have never had a kid with an eating disorder and don't know of anyone else who does (which does not mean that no one they know actually is dealing with it). With an added side of blaming the parents for their affected kids' disorders.

No, I really don't think 'it depends'. It may be more prevalent in your social circle. I respect that but I also think, objectively, one can quantify the impact of various phenomena and 'furries' demanding litter boxes or teens walking on leashes just doesn't register. Eating disorders are an issue, yes. There are lots of similar issues. Are they things to be aware of? Sure. Do they affect the majority of teens...NO, they don't. I feel like we've lost all sense of perspective and scale in an effort to make everyone feel good. Every issue is not of equal importance. They all deserve some awareness/attention...but is it a national scourge??? No.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sneezyone

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

No, I really don't think 'it depends'. I think, objectively, one can quantify the impact of various phenomena and 'furries' demanding litter boxes in schools just doesn't register. Eating disorders are an issue, yes. There are lots of similar issues. Are they things to be aware of? Sure. Do they affect the majority of teens...NO, they don't. I feel like we've lost all sense of perspective and scale in an effort to make everyone feel good. Every issue is not of equal importance. They al deserve some attention...but is it a national scourge??? No.

Oh, I totally agree with you on the furry litter box thing. I think that is way, way out there and not some thing people are generally dealing with. I thought we had moved on to other things, particularly current social contagions like late onset tic disorders, multiple identity systems, cutting, eating disorders, etc.

Eta: and I’m not saying those things affect the majority, but that the numbers they are affecting is significant enough to be impacting a very measurable percentage of families.

Edited December 18, 2021 by KSera

[Melissa Louise]

Yeah, I'm not a clueless or crappy parent. People are VERY lucky to be able to believe it's their superior parenting that means their kids aren't the ones affected by sm subcultures. 

I think there are susceptibilities, including genetic, trauma and family susceptibilies, for which parents may or may not be 'to blame' but sm and toxic online cultures definitely interact with those vulnerabilities in a really nasty way. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

But hey, it's only a few kids, so who gives a damn, right? 

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, I totally agree with you on the furry litter box thing. I think that is way, way out there and not some thing people are generally dealing with. I thought we had moved on to other things, particularly current social contagions like late onset tic disorders, multiple identity systems, cutting, eating disorders, etc.

Eating disorders have been on my radar since I was forced to watch after school specials on the topic in the 80s. I didn't know anyone who had one then and still don't. In my neighborhood, it was viewed as only the white girls who had issues with a few extra pounds. The rest of us were prized/praised for them. Significant cultural difference there. It's not at all clear to me that the issue has become MORE prevalent. Maybe it has. Same with cutting. My sister and her friends did that in the 90s. Multiple identities? Same. I am not seeing evidence that anything but the media/mediums have changed. I'm open to learning more. I'm just not seeing it. And for the love of God, we should be able to talk about prioritizing outrage/advocacy/concern without resorting to 'you must be an uncaring bitch' rhetoric.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Janeway]

It is absolutely terrible these days. My son is currently needing intensive treatment and his phone and what is on it, is coming out as a main source of everything. I want to bleach my hands after I touch that thing and read what has been said. What these kids say to each other and what is spread around is just nasty. And they cannot just come home to get away from it. It is on their phones, in their rooms, at night, at morning, around the clock. Snap Chat, TikTok, Discord, etc etc.....just...ugh! Also, I did not allow some of these apps. But, everyone has them. There are ways around everything. I am just disgusted. And I have not even mentioned the content of what is being said on here. But it is a lot of nastiness, attacking, everything nasty we have ever seen teens say or do to each other, but at their finger tips, 24-7, and coming in constantly.

[Shoeless]

51 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It really is not good. 

If I could think of some way to save Spotify and ditch the internet altogether, I would!

Music on demand keeps me tethered. 

My sole reason for keeping fb is because it's the only way to reach a few people or businesses that kiddo has connection with. They don't have a phone; just fb messenger. I find that very frustrating.  I have a couple of hobby groups on fb, but they are focused on a specific hobby, so they tend not to go off the rails.  I let kiddo use my fb to look at animal pictures from the local zoo and where I used to work.  I keep my feed very curated.  

But otherwise, no instagram, no twitter, no reddit, no tik tok, no whatsapp, no pinterest, no goodreads, no youtube, no discord.  There are too many dark and icky corridors he could wander down. I can't keep up with all of them, so we've made it a blanket policy that we aren't using these services, period.  (Youtube is allowed for specific videos, but there's no carte blanche to while the day away on youtube).     

[Janeway]

Also, there is a big victim mentality. They all have to be better than the other and NEED the most likes. They block and friend each other and get devastated over it. It just is big and complicated. But I will never ever buy a smart phone for a child again, ever.

[Teaching3bears]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'd 100% disagree and say it's way more misogynist. I've never seen as much woman hatred in my life before that last five years. 

Can you explain this? I’m interested in why you say this.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

My sole reason for keeping fb is because it's the only way to reach a few people or businesses that kiddo has connection with. They don't have a phone; just fb messenger. I find that very frustrating.  I have a couple of hobby groups on fb, but they are focused on a specific hobby, so they tend not to go off the rails.  I let kiddo use my fb to look at animal pictures from the local zoo and where I used to work.  I keep my feed very curated.  

But otherwise, no instagram, no twitter, no reddit, no tik tok, no whatsapp, no pinterest, no goodreads, no youtube, no discord.  There are too many dark and icky corridors he could wander down. I can't keep up with all of them, so we've made it a blanket policy that we aren't using these services, period.  (Youtube is allowed for specific videos, but there's no carte blanche to while the day away on youtube).     

Twitter is my guilty pleasure/addiction, and it's so bad for me. 

 

[Shoeless]

Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts

I'm part way through this book. I had to set it aside for awhile because it was making me stressed. I got halfway through it and started deleting old accounts. Like, I technically had a pinterest account, but I hadn't used it in years, so away it went. 

[WildflowerMom]

15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

But hey, it's only a few kids, so who gives a damn, right? 

Well, as long as it's 'those other' few kids, no one gives a damn.