Duggar found GUILTY

[Katy]

I’m going with the theory that officers generally have some discretion about situations like this. The officer definitely knew what their dad was on trial for. Once children have been endangered (especially with a parent facing sex offender charges against children the same age), CPS can pretty easily have them declared a family in need of assistance and require ALL KINDS of things and services and in order to get out of their business again.

I’ve literally had kids stay with us that had been in a similar situation that the judge had required LICENSED daycare from 6am-6pm even with a stay at home parent, and several other stay at home aunts that lived on the same street because the social workers didn’t trust any of them to keep the children safe.

And yes, Jana could absolutely be forbidden from being a caretaker for a pretty generous period at the judge’s discretion. 

[Faith-manor]

35 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’m going with the theory that officers generally have some discretion about situations like this. The officer definitely knew what their dad was on trial for. Once children have been endangered (especially with a parent facing sex offender charges against children the same age), CPS can pretty easily have them declared a family in need of assistance and require ALL KINDS of things and services and in order to get out of their business again.

I’ve literally had kids stay with us that had been in a similar situation that the judge had required LICENSED daycare from 6am-6pm even with a stay at home parent, and several other stay at home aunts that lived on the same street because the social workers didn’t trust any of them to keep the children safe.

And yes, Jana could absolutely be forbidden from being a caretaker for a pretty generous period at the judge’s discretion. 

But we don't know that this was the M's. Duggar have 22 grandkids 12 and under, and only four - Jill and Jinger - are not around. It could be one of the other sets of nieces and nephews. And since the child/children in question are minors so their identities will be protected, we may never know which family's kids were involved in the incident.

I have also seen judges say someone cannot provide childcare, and in some cases, for years not just months. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I’m going with the theory that officers generally have some discretion about situations like this. The officer definitely knew what their dad was on trial for. Once children have been endangered (especially with a parent facing sex offender charges against children the same age), CPS can pretty easily have them declared a family in need of assistance and require ALL KINDS of things and services and in order to get out of their business again.

I’ve literally had kids stay with us that had been in a similar situation that the judge had required LICENSED daycare from 6am-6pm even with a stay at home parent, and several other stay at home aunts that lived on the same street because the social workers didn’t trust any of them to keep the children safe.

And yes, Jana could absolutely be forbidden from being a caretaker for a pretty generous period at the judge’s discretion. 

And it's pretty well known just how "open" (cough, cough) JB & M were to outside help when Josh was abusing his sisters.  And CPS wasn't allowed to investigate.  This could also be used as another attempt to do an investigation to find out just how much was swept under the rug.  It's a lot of kids - including "the M's".

[Katy]

48 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

But we don't know that this was the M's. Duggar have 22 grandkids 12 and under, and only four - Jill and Jinger - are not around. It could be one of the other sets of nieces and nephews. And since the child/children in question are minors so their identities will be protected, we may never know which family's kids were involved in the incident.

I have also seen judges say someone cannot provide childcare, and in some cases, for years not just months. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.

But how many kids of those ages could she have been watching simultaneously in a place so close to a busy road that it’s even plausible they would be anywhere else? It’s not proven but it’s definitely most likely. 

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Katy said:

But how many kids of those ages could she have been watching simultaneously in a place so close to a busy road that it’s even plausible they would be anywhere else? It’s not proven but it’s definitely most likely. 

Actually quite a few. It has been noted on other sites that the Kendra and Jessas kids are there a lot along with John David's daughter. That is eight, and the town is tiny, super duper tiny. People refer to her as the Duggar free daycare provider.

[Frances]

4 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I do hope they can break free and still retain relationships with their younger siblings.  Those kids will need support in the future.  I wonder how much the younger Duggers and the M's even know if the only information they're getting is Headship Approved.  I think Jill and Derrick are leading this charge, but I get the feeling they are constrained.  I don't know if they're just trying to maintain family relationships or if they're working around some sort of DNR like Amy signed.  It must be crazy when your life IS your business.  I wonder what Jim Bob will even DO with himself when the dust settles.  Financially it should be easier to make ends meet with fewer kids at home, but it seems like Anna and the kids will replace anyone who moved out.  If he wins his election I'm going to be in shock.

It’s my understanding that he has fairly sizable real estate holdings. So perhaps not as lucrative as pimping out your family for profit, but I’m sure he will be ok. 

[freesia]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

If my understanding is correct - ATI/IBLP does a lot of victim blaming, and "retraining" the victims to be more modest so they "won't be tempting".  (if a victim is an infant, it's the female's fault for changing a diaper where josh could see them.).  She was the oldest victim. (or was that jana?).  She was young enough she could have really swallowed it was her fault and she needed to repent. Or maybe not.  Her statement in 2015 really seemed to downplay what happened - and I imagine that's what she was required to say.

while the religious abuse (I heard a lot of: you will do what I say/treat me right, or God will d*mn you to h3ll) I experienced is nowhere in this league - I did a lot of "go along to get along" - up until the day I felt safe enough to tell her where she could shove it.  Not because I bought into it, but because I was afraid of the fallout (of what she would do to me) of not parroting back what was expected.

Re:  Jessa.  Since JB has enormous say in who the girls married, he may have chosen a weakling for her, that would be under his thumb, because she seemed most likely to rebel.

If I’m remembering correctly, I don’t think Jim-Bob liked Ben much. He was younger than Jessa and maybe 19? When they married. I think he lived on the compound for awhile before their marriage and worked for JB. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by freesia

[itsheresomewhere]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

It’s my understanding that he has fairly sizable real estate holdings. So perhaps not as lucrative as pimping out your family for profit, but I’m sure he will be ok. 

I read a few years ago that they get a about 3000 a month for allowing a cell phone tower on their property.  

[gardenmom5]

55 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

I read a few years ago that they get a about 3000 a month for allowing a cell phone tower on their property.  

not sure of the rental value - but our neighbor's have a tower on their property.  It worked out well for us when we had a major power outage.  The cell company brought in a massive generator* (on condition the property owner got to hook up to it.).  We were able to use our neighbor's generator for most of the week we were out of power.

*I didn't think about the fact they make portable generators large enough to fit on flatbed semi-trailer.  Or at least, I never expected to see one on my residential street.

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Actually quite a few. It has been noted on other sites that the Kendra and Jessas kids are there a lot along with John David's daughter. That is eight, and the town is tiny, super duper tiny. People refer to her as the Duggar free daycare provider.

That's really sad.  I hope she can escape.

[HS Mom in NC]

I don't know how much contact the kids staying with JB and M have with the kids who left, but the kids who left could be the lifeline for the kids who stay when they become adults and decide to leave.  It's always hardest for the first, but when the second gets out there's usually a safe place to land with the first.  The more who are out mean a bigger support system for those going out in the future.

I watch Growing Up in Polygamy on Youtube. Sam left the FLDS church at 18. He had older siblings as support because they had already left.  I hope Jana and Anna go that route in the future.  I also hope there are legitimate churches in the area ministering to former IBLP people.  The mainstream LDS churches in Northern AZ and parts of Utah are set up for that. So are some areas with Amish populations.

Wasn't there a report of Derrick sitting by Anna through the trial or am I mixing up Duggar daughters' spouses?  I hope he was whispering to her that if she ever decides to leave, they'll provide support to her. I know Anna's brother offered and was declined. Hopefully this is the very beginning of her starting to consider that things aren't as they're presented in the IBLP world.

[Slache]

I had no idea they had an unmarried adult child. Isn't it her job to get married? Is she being kept as a nanny? Are other families doing this?

[MercyA]

10 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Wasn't there a report of Derrick sitting by Anna through the trial or am I mixing up Duggar daughters' spouses?  

Yes, he did. I don't agree with Derrick about everything, but there is a lot I like about him. 

[MercyA]

11 minutes ago, Slache said:

I had no idea they had an unmarried adult child. Isn't it her job to get married? Is she being kept as a nanny? Are other families doing this?

Jana has said she just hasn't met the right man for her. Here are some fairly recent quotes from her:

"I feel like these days, probably one of the most common questions is, ‘Am I in a relationship?' Sometimes it gets a little old. I'm like 'No, I'm not, no I don't have anyone.' And usually I'm just like 'OK, I'll just answer it and go on and that's it.' Sometimes it can get a little like, 'What, that's not the only thing in the world to talk about.'"

"Most of my siblings have gotten married really young. Some people are like, 'Are you picky?' I'm like, 'I don't think so.'"

"I used to be a little more strict," she said. "I felt like, I just want to find someone that either would move to Arkansas, or is already from here, but I think as time has gone on, I think it's more that I've found I do love to travel more than I thought I did."

"So now, it's more like, OK, if I really love the guy, I'll follow him to the ends of the earth. I'll want to go wherever he is. And so far I just haven't found that one, so when he comes, he doesn't have to stay in Arkansas, it's just I've gotta love you so much that I will go with you."

"Not everyone’s lives look the same, and so yes, I could be depressed," she said. "But I have to keep telling myself, 'No, this is what God has planned out,' and you know … if the right one had come along, I would have been married a long time ago. But I just don’t think that it’s been God’s timing yet, and I’ve been able to accomplish a lot of other things that maybe I wouldn’t have had I been married."

Edited December 12, 2021 by MercyA

[itsheresomewhere]

I can’t copy it as I am on my phone but what an ( insert choice word here) statement by JB released on his campaign page. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by itsheresomewhere

[MercyA]

12 minutes ago, Slache said:

I had no idea they had an unmarried adult child. Isn't it her job to get married? Is she being kept as a nanny? Are other families doing this?

Jana has also had to publicly squelch rumors that she's dating her best girlfriend:

“No. I would like to stop that rumor. I have no interest in girls that way whatsoever. I have ‘courted’ or ‘dated’ a few guys, but so far nothing has gone into a serious relationship. Just continuing to wait and pray for the right guy to come along.”

Edited December 12, 2021 by MercyA

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

I can’t copy it as I am on my phone but what an ( insert choice word here) statement by JB released on his campaign page. 

Oh, ugh. I just visited his campaign website and he’s anti-vax, too. 

I didn’t think I could possibly dislike him any more than I already did, but here we are.

 

[MercyA]

13 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

I can’t copy it as I am on my phone but what an ( insert choice word here) statement by JB released on his campaign page. 

"As a father, I am heartbroken over the entire situation regarding my son, all who have been affected by it in any way, and those who have been harmed through CSAM. As an American, I respect our legal system and am thankful for those who serve in it. As a Christian, I put all of my trust in Christ in both the joyful and difficult moments of life. As your state senator, I promise to remain an unwavering conservative voice representing our great community in Little Rock. Thank you for your prayers and support."

IDK. I'm no fan of Jim Bob, but this statement isn't the worst to me.

Edited December 12, 2021 by MercyA

[Catwoman]

JimBob is also fighting against “this Marxist agenda.”

He also says, “I will not allow the liberal left, social media, or fake news to define me and my family. Like so many other families, we too have faced crises, difficulties, and heartbreak.”

He is very subtle.

 

 

[MercyA]

5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Oh, ugh. I just visited his campaign website and he’s anti-vax, too. 

I didn’t think I could possibly dislike him any more than I already did, but here we are.

Yep. Don't say you're pro-life, Jim Bob, if you don't support protecting vulnerable people during a pandemic. 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

"As a father, I am heartbroken over the entire situation regarding my son, all who have been affected by it in any way, and those who have been harmed through CSAM. As an American, I respect our legal system and am thankful for those who serve in it. As a Christian, I put all of my trust in Christ in both the joyful and difficult moments of life. As your state senator, I promise to remain an unwavering conservative voice representing our great community in Little Rock. Thank you for your prayers and support."

Yes, he’s heartbroken. Heartbroken that Josh got caught and convicted. 

I heard someone say that they were happy that JimBob was using the proper terminology (CSAM,) but my personal opinion is that he is betting that many of his constituents don’t know what that acronym stands for. And because he thinks using an acronym instead of describing what Josh did, will make it seem less serious.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Yep. Don't say you're pro-life, Jim Bob, if you don't support protecting vulnerable people during a pandemic. 

I think he is a phony and a hypocrite, and I wouldn’t vote for him even if I agreed with every word on his website. (As it is, I don’t think I agree with him on much of anything, but I wouldn’t vote for him even if I did because I think he is a terrible, horrible, awful human being.)

[itsheresomewhere]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

Yes, he’s heartbroken. Heartbroken that Josh got caught and convicted. 

I heard someone say that they were happy that JimBob was using the proper terminology (CSAM,) but my personal opinion is that he is betting that many of his constituents don’t know what that acronym stands for. And because he thinks using an acronym instead of describing what Josh did, will make it seem less serious.

I agree.  
 

Someone needs to ask him at his next campaign gathering- How can you fight for us when you couldn’t even be bothered to fight for your daughters.  

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

 Sidebar: the charges against Jana seem like witch-hunting. It does not seem like a coincidence of timing. 

But we don't even know what happened yet. There is a witness listed, so it doesn't sound like the cops spotted her doing something minor and swooped down on her. While it's a misdemeanor charge, it could have been something that would really be inappropriate to NOT charge for. 

Also, I have a very hard time imagining that the police in Arkansas are having a witch hunt against the Duggars. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

JimBob is also fighting against “this Marxist agenda.”

He also says, “I will not allow the liberal left, social media, or fake news to define me and my family. Like so many other families, we too have faced crises, difficulties, and heartbreak.”

He is very subtle.

 

 

Eye roll! Because yes....so persecuted! It couldn't possibly be because of his choices Josh's choices! Nope. Narcissism at its finest.🙄😠

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

I had no idea they had an unmarried adult child. Isn't it her job to get married? Is she being kept as a nanny? Are other families doing this?

Actually, I know of two quiverful/IBLP families who have groomed their eldest daughters to never marry because then they remain under their father's headship, and must be sistermommies and nurse caregivers for elderly parents. That is another thing Bill Gothard thought was wonderful. 

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Slache said:

I had no idea they had an unmarried adult child. Isn't it her job to get married? Is she being kept as a nanny? Are other families doing this?

No, they have not forced her to marry.  They seem to be one of the families to keep the oldest girl at home, no matter what she says.  It is common in IBLP.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I think he is a phony and a hypocrite, and I wouldn’t vote for him even if I agreed with every word on his website. (As it is, I don’t think I agree with him on much of anything, but I wouldn’t vote for him even if I did because I think he is a terrible, horrible, awful human being.)

Unfortunately we know from past experience that won’t stop many others from doing so.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Wasn't there a report of Derrick sitting by Anna through the trial  

Yes. And it warmed the cockles of my heart when Josh looked to Anna for support, and Derrick was there staring back at him. . . . . 

 

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

No, they have not forced her to marry.  They seem to be one of the families to keep the oldest girl at home, no matter what she says.  It is common in IBLP.

Is it really? REALLY? I’ve heard that here over and over, but I’ve never heard it anywhere else. Is this true? Is it actually common in a significant number of these families? What is the logic behind this? How do they keep the girls from taking off. I don’t doubt you, I just have a morbid curiosity and lots of questions. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

Is it really? REALLY? I’ve heard that here over and over, but I’ve never heard it anywhere else. Is this true? Is it actually common in a significant number of these families? What is the logic behind this? How do they keep the girls from taking off. I don’t doubt you, I just have a morbid curiosity and lots of questions. 

how familiar are you with how narcissistic abuse works?  Grooming?  Programing Pavlov's dog?  This is very similar.

 

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

Is it really? REALLY? I’ve heard that here over and over, but I’ve never heard it anywhere else. Is this true? Is it actually common in a significant number of these families? What is the logic behind this? How do they keep the girls from taking off. I don’t doubt you, I just have a morbid curiosity and lots of questions. 

The Maxwell family and Botkin families are examples. Although the Maxwell daughters all recently escaped, to the shock of everyone. I follow a few former female IBLPers on TikTok who have rallied about how their parents wanted to stay single for they could help with kids, grandkids and then provide elder care. 

[KungFuPanda]

11 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

The Maxwell family and Botkin families are examples. Although the Maxwell daughters all recently escaped, to the shock of everyone. I follow a few former female IBLPers on TikTok who have rallied about how their parents wanted to stay single for they could help with kids, grandkids and then provide elder care. 

Ugh. That’s one Fundie thread I haven’t pulled. That’s horrific.  They’re born into slavery because they’re the oldest daughters? It’s gross. 

[lauraw4321]

2 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

Ugh. That’s one Fundie thread I haven’t pulled. That’s horrific.  They’re born into slavery because they’re the oldest daughters? It’s gross. 

I think it comes from the umbrella of authority and a woman always needing to be under a man’s authority. But all the ones I follow have escaped. Jana claims she is free to marry, but JB tightly controls her choices. So if he never finds someone suitable? 🤷‍♀️

[KungFuPanda]

17 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

how familiar are you with how narcissistic abuse works?  Grooming?  Programing Pavlov's dog?  This is very similar.

 

I can believe a dysfunctional family would play such an abusive long game as this. I have a tough time seeing it applied as a movement in a sizable congregation. I want to hope it’s just a few prominent kooks that are actually pulling this off and not hundreds or thousands of families. 

[Resilient]

It’s not that great for first sons.  Expected to follow in daddy’s footsteps, take over the business, the headship.  As I have said, it’s been in my periphery and I don’t claime to have had clarity in what I was seeing.  It gave me the creeps but I couldn’t figure out why.  Seeing a family that looks close and successful is not always a Big Moment of Clarity. Alas.  

[gardenmom5]

53 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I can believe a dysfunctional family would play such an abusive long game as this. I have a tough time seeing it applied as a movement in a sizable congregation. I want to hope it’s just a few prominent kooks that are actually pulling this off and not hundreds or thousands of families. 

this "movement" which teaches what place each child holds.  Importance of oldest son, and expected place of nanny/nurse for oldest daughter.  My great-grandmother would have her older daughters helping care for younger children.  (Oldest were out of the house before youngest were born.)

It was historical (six hundred years ago) in Europe - oldest son received all the property (even before it was codified into law), other sons would be farmed out to the church, and a daughter to the nunnery.  

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

how familiar are you with how narcissistic abuse works?  Grooming?  Programing Pavlov's dog?  This is very similar.

 

Yes. It can happen in secular families too. I know someone who only this year escaped from the daughter-at-home role, on her mother's death. The daughter is 59.

I think the spiritual side adds another layer though. My acquaintance's mother could guilt her with threats that the mother would self-harm if the daughter left. But at least disobeying wasn't a road to hell.

[Katy]

6 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Is it really? REALLY? I’ve heard that here over and over, but I’ve never heard it anywhere else. Is this true? Is it actually common in a significant number of these families? What is the logic behind this? How do they keep the girls from taking off. I don’t doubt you, I just have a morbid curiosity and lots of questions. 

I’m not in that world, but most of the women I’ve seen interviewed who escaped were the oldest daughters who described that was the plan for them.

Kids are taught that there is always someone between them and God who gets to make all the choices for them. They are never really free adults unless they are married men who are financially independent.  Not following JB’s choices for Jana would be violating God’s will, committing witchcraft, and inviting Satan to curse her, most likely with rape, miscarriage, or infertility. 

The rumors are that Jana had more spirit when she was young.  She fell for someone her dad didn’t approve of, and when she sulked and grieved when he broke them up she was sent to Journey of the Heart IBLP programming camp not once, but twice. Since then she’s totally drank the koolaid and is for the most part super compliant.  

I did read one thing that said JB had property across the street from the compound in Jana’s name, and when the car lot was raided and Josh started selling assets JB demanded Jana sign over that property to Josh.  She apparently refused because she’s planning on getting married and building her own house there someday.  So apparently she still thinks she’ll marry, but she’s so dependent on her family she can’t imagine moving away. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

7 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Is it really? REALLY? I’ve heard that here over and over, but I’ve never heard it anywhere else. Is this true? Is it actually common in a significant number of these families? What is the logic behind this? How do they keep the girls from taking off. I don’t doubt you, I just have a morbid curiosity and lots of questions. 

I’ve known a lot of ATI families and never seen this.  the most ATI family I knew, who’s sons all went through ALERT and the daughters did Journey of the Heart and they were enrolled in the homeschool program the entirety of K-12–their oldest daughter is at Syracuse University doing a PhD in molecular biology.  It’s their youngest daughter who seems to be home indefinitely.  But she’s only 25 still so it remains to be seen.  

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I can believe a dysfunctional family would play such an abusive long game as this. I have a tough time seeing it applied as a movement in a sizable congregation. I want to hope it’s just a few prominent kooks that are actually pulling this off and not hundreds or thousands of families. 

I don't THINK there are hundreds of families in ATI/IBLP congregations. Man, I hope not. 

[Faith-manor]

6 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I can believe a dysfunctional family would play such an abusive long game as this. I have a tough time seeing it applied as a movement in a sizable congregation. I want to hope it’s just a few prominent kooks that are actually pulling this off and not hundreds or thousands of families. 

It is not hundreds of thousands by any stretch. It is in the high single digit thousands to low tens of thousands. Gothard is worth a about 94 million personally, at least back in the 2005 or so. That might have dropped off since then due to "retiring" over his own sex scandal. But, he was international not just national. He has a youth retraining center in Moscow, Russia. His bedroom is in the girl's dorm!

When I was a teen and he was the main speaker for the conventions, he would pack out places like Joe Lewis Arena, and you could watch the families, women walking behind their husbands or beside but staring at their feet the teenage girls not making eye contact, extreme conservative clothing and a lot of it looking pretty ratty for the women, men and teen boys in expensive suits, men just FAWNING over Gothard as he trumpeted abusing their wives and daughters because "god wanted it that way", it was frightening. It was not quite that bad at the Basic convention where he tried to woo knew converts so he didn't bring out the craziest of his stuff. Yowza those Advanced ones were just 😥. I was forced to go to both. My dad went to the basic. Then that abusive school he had me in made the entire body of teens attend the advanced one. My dad didn't go so naturally he had no idea just how off the freaking rails it was.

I never went to Journey of the Heart. During dad's year of flirting with IBLP, he was still very into promoting my musical abilities. So he for in big trouble with the Gothardite pastor of the school when I went to Interlochen (so scandalous to them). Two girls I went to school with got sent to Journey. Both were groped by Gothard while there, and one got caught with red nail polish and sentenced to stand on a chair for hours with a tomato under her heels. People got to smack her as they walked by, and she wasn't supposed to let that tomato smash her feet. Sick bastards.

Also, the Indianapolis Star - if memory serves - was the investigative news org that blew the whistle off his youth re-training center in Indianapolis. It was horribly abusive, just awful. Local judges used to send youth in trouble with juvy court there for Gothard and company to straighten out. I don't know if the videos are still available anywhere, but if you google, you might find the written reports. It ended them getting state money for housing and "training" kids in the system.

The two Botkin sisters are in their thirties now, unmarried and probably still washing Jeff's feet for him. One of the Botkin sons left the cult, married a gal with an engineering degree! It has been a bit of a scandal over there. They have never announced a courtship for either sister, and my guess is that it was planned that way though in his early days of spreading vile family ideas to the homeschooling community, Jeff Botkin talked about holding his baby girls for the very first time and praying for their ovaries because he wanted them to have lots of babies! That guy is gross!

That I know of personally, those who follow this idea - even if they don't attribute it to Gothard and have put their own spin on it - Boerne Christian Assembly, San Antonio and two off shoot Texas churches, Christchurch of Moscow, Idaho - and Doug Wilson is someone a lot of people in Moscow are trying to bring down - two non-denominational churches near me, and several non-denoms in my uncle's area of Kentucky are involved with IBLP. There are plenty of others, but they are spread out and do not function like a denomination per se. Also, Kentucky Mountain Bible College, while not proclaiming any allegiance to Gothard, teaches a ton of the same ideas. Also, often IBLP families are spread out and don't have enough other like minded families to form a church so they attend very, very conservative Holiness Association churches instead of home-churching. And of course those churches do not necessarily believe all of the rhetoric though they do tend to be pretty anti-female rights for sure. This makes it hard to get a true picture of how many of them there are.

The conventions are very expensive to attend, and the materials are crazy expensive to buy. That one way the organization rakes in the big bucks. Gullible people were willing to buy it because of the allure of having a perfect, godly family, and of course a certain level of prosperity gospel - god will shine on your business, your income, etc. if you follow the plan.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’ve known a lot of ATI families and never seen this.  the most ATI family I knew, who’s sons all went through ALERT and the daughters did Journey of the Heart and they were enrolled in the homeschool program the entirety of K-12–their oldest daughter is at Syracuse University doing a PhD in molecular biology.  It’s their youngest daughter who seems to be home indefinitely.  But she’s only 25 still so it remains to be seen.  

Yes, it varies the degree to which people swallow the kool aid. For a lot of families, it all sounds wonderful when the kidlets are little and easier to mold. Hit the teen and young adult years, and it gets mighty tough. A lot of people who fall for it in the beginning lose their taste when it gets rough sledding, or they have teens who won't comply and are more than willing to speak up to people in the community, the doctor, a teacher, the neighbors, etc. So when it gets hard, they easy way up, and then over time, fall away.  The IFB church about 20 minutes from my house had a big rude awakening just a few years back when the pastor's oldest child ran away from home. Fled in the middle of the night, and managed to hitch a ride to the ER where she showed the staff her back, where her father had beaten her with a belt for speaking to an unapproved boy. He went to jail, her mom had to go to parenting classes and promise to never lay a hand on any of the other kids, three years of supervision while he was in jail, and then they remained under scrutiny because she refused to divorce him. The daughter was 16 and a nice family in the area took her in and helped her get caught up on school work, then enrolled her in dual enrollment to finish high school.

But that church, fundie as it was, was floored that their pastor was that abusive. I mean they all had swallowed the kool aid to some degree or they wouldn't have been attending his church, however not to that extreme that they would do something like that to their own kids. What was scary was how many pastors from the non-denominational churches in the area supported him!!!! No joke. Their big thing was, "well, he shouldn't have hit her so hard, but we don't want the government up in our religious business so we need to protest his arrest". 😯 Very frightening.

IFB churches, in particular, have been a bit more prone to following Gothardism. Or Jack Hylesism or.....it is a lot of the same thing just packaged a little differently.

[TravelingChris]

On 12/10/2021 at 8:06 PM, Faith-manor said:

Dawn is right, and it is one of the dangers of "once saved, always saved" from a theological perspective. There will be those who use the "no true scotsman" argument and say he was never a Christian to begin with, but within the confines of this group which also places a bizarre value on first born sons, it will be downplayed considerably, and it is all about the poor Josh Duggar family being persecuted for their faith.

You know something?  I do believe that if someone is saved, they are saved forever.  But I also and much more strongly believe that it is not what we do that gets us saved but rather God is in charge and saves us.  God is the all-knowing, all-powerful, etc one, not us.  So I believe God chooses who he chooses anw whatever claims we have or  JB or Josh orTravelingChris or anyone at  all have on being saved are not forcing God to do anything.  He is a also outside of time so God knows everything.

My own  dh has problems with how deterministic I see God snd the world. But even he agrees that the Bible says God chioses, not us.  And that means there is no magic formula to incant and be saved nor are we supposed to be deciding is saved or lost because we have no knowledge in the matter and the wsy a lot of people go about pronouncing A is saved but B is not  is not only something they have no knowledge about but what it does is create barriers, divisions, frictions, and is sinful.

[Faith-manor]

56 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't THINK there are hundreds of families in ATI/IBLP congregations. Man, I hope not. 

Yes, there are more than hundreds. Gothard did not amass a fortune just shy of a 100,000,000 on so few families. Now that said, certainly some of them paid the Money for the conventions, and then decided against it. The cost is $60 for the first person, and $35 per additional family member with encouragement for the whole family to attend and then a lot of add on costs not listed on the website. This is way less then in the mid-80's when it was about $750 for the basic for just two or three people, and $1500 for the advanced. And what I quote is  for the basic. It is close to double for advanced.

Wisdom Booklets are $85 per student (down a long way from the 80's and 90's eras but printing is actually cheaper, and I think they lowered the price to keep big families involved). Family enrollment annually in order to get the newsletters is $150, and that also represents a price drop. But also, these are 2011 prices. I don't have anything more recent than that. They do top Wisdom Booklets out at $630 per annum for families over a certain size. I guess they figured out that huge, single income families might not be able to afford it. Last I knew, Journey of the Heart was $500 per ATI student, and $800 for non-ATI, and that was for a week at a time. ALERT, if memory serves, was a little more expensive because the boys got to do first responder type stuff so they had licensed CPR instructors and what not brought in, and of course, they get paid their EMS organizations going rate.

But even at the higher prices three and four decades ago, it was more than a few hundred families paying dues, buying wisdom.booklets, going to conventions, and constant buying up his books, tapes/cd's, and crap, paying for youth camps, in order for him to get that rich.

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

You know something?  I do believe that if someone is saved, they are saved forever.  But I also and much more strongly believe that it is not what we do that gets us saved but rather God is in charge and saves us.  God is the all-knowing, all-powerful, etc one, not us.  So I believe God chooses who he chooses anw whatever claims we have or  JB or Josh orTravelingChris or anyone at  all have on being saved are not forcing God to do anything.  He is a also outside of time so God knows everything.

My own  dh has problems with how deterministic I see God snd the world. But even he agrees that the Bible says God chioses, not us.  And that means there is no magic formula to incant and be saved nor are we supposed to be deciding is saved or lost because we have no knowledge in the matter and the wsy a lot of people go about pronouncing A is saved but B is not  is not only something they have no knowledge about but what it does is create barriers, divisions, frictions, and is sinful.

Well, I don't want to have a long debate, but just want to say that if it is all god's choice than people are obviously created, if one buys into the theology, for hell. There is no alternative because they can't choose otherwise. I am not sure what the allure is to a religion in which you could spend your whole life, I once did, serving and loving god with your whole heart only to be rolling the dice on NOT ending up in hell. So there is that. However, since IBLP is outside the scope of even Calvinism or Welseyanism/Arminianism or any other mainstream, it isn't worth discussing here. They are just a whole level of crazy theology!

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I’m not in that world, but most of the women I’ve seen interviewed who escaped were the oldest daughters who described that was the plan for them.

Kids are taught that there is always someone between them and God who gets to make all the choices for them. They are never really free adults unless they are married men who are financially independent.  Not following JB’s choices for Jana would be violating God’s will, committing witchcraft, and inviting Satan to curse her, most likely with rape, miscarriage, or infertility. 

The rumors are that Jana had more spirit when she was young.  She fell for someone her dad didn’t approve of, and when she sulked and grieved when he broke them up she was sent to Journey of the Heart IBLP programming camp not once, but twice. Since then she’s totally drank the koolaid and is for the most part super compliant.  

I did read one thing that said JB had property across the street from the compound in Jana’s name, and when the car lot was raided and Josh started selling assets JB demanded Jana sign over that property to Josh.  She apparently refused because she’s planning on getting married and building her own house there someday.  So apparently she still thinks she’ll marry, but she’s so dependent on her family she can’t imagine moving away. 

Yes, it is sad but Gothard teaches that  woman outside of her father's or husband's headship will often be raped, sink into prostitution, be infertile. The slime bag takes some of the worst fears that women will have about sexual abuse or fertility and then tells them that it will happen to them if they don't bow the knee to abuse and neglect by their fathers and husbands. He is one sick bastard! And of course this teaching attracts sick bastards who want to control the women in their lives, even hurt them. So it naturally attracts to its midst, narcissists and sociopaths. 

[freesia]

What I saw in the Maxwell blog a few weeks ago is that their pastor recommended/ urged them to have their oldest move out ( she bought a house) and the two younger girls are going to Bible college. I wonder if in practice some of these families are realizing “the plan” isn’t working the way they thought it would and are becoming open to alternate plans snd guidance. The Maxwells have always been open about Sarah wanting to marry do I don’t think they fall into the oldest dd at home thing. I can see boys/ young men being put off dating someone in such a controlling situation. I would think many healthy guys would run away. Anyway, I hope there is a shift. I see and come across far far fewer irl or virtual homeschooling moms expousing these ideas than I did 20 years ago. 

[Faith-manor]

Okay, if anyone wants to know more, I will be back in 7-10 hours depending on how long it takes me to make my way out of the U.P. I just can't lay over another night because I have a doctor appointment tomorrow. Hopefully the roads are cleared by now. Yesterday there were a lot of stranded motorists/ditch accidents on M28 and MSP was asking people to stay home. But that was 19 hours ago so here is hoping the plows have been able to get it safe to drive.

[TravelingChris]

2 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

. However, since IBLP is outside the scope of even Calvinism or Welseyanism/Arminianism or any other mainstream, it isn't worth discussing here. They are just a whole level of crazy theology!

Totally agree that IBLP is crazy theology.

As to the hell part and what is the allure of a religion where you don't know if you end up there, my point is that God said Love trumpets faith and hope.  It isn't that I think people shouldn't think they are saved, rather they shouldn't brag that they are saved.  Mainly  because they are bragging about their actions of chastising ohhers that they did it wrong, aren't saved because they aren't Catholic, Baptist. etc, didn't ask Jesus to come into their heart or didn't get saved agsin when they strayed znd aln thise sorts of statements. And specifically, I don't believe that God only saves Christians.  ( As to the oart about Jesus enters your heart, when dd1 was about 5, she was at a VBS where that term was used.  She came home and said she didn't want Jesus in her heart because if he was there,how would her heart work?   She is also  the one who a few years later was getting 'saved' multiple times until I stopped taking her and her sister yo AWANAS.