Second Update in 1st post - More advice please.

[lauraw4321]

My youngest kid. She just marches to a different beat. She’s so so smart. 
 

She’s had the most disrupted schooling of any of my kids. 2019-2020 was her Kindergarten year, so it was hugely disrupted. Summer after that we moved back to Deep South. I was really dissatisfied with virtual school so I pulled her and my middle daughter and HS half a year. It was such a struggle because DH and I were both working FT at home at the same time. I hired help. But it was still so tough and by Jan. of 2021 I was completely broken. I had to send everyone to school. We just stopped seeing elders in the family. 
 

My youngest is begging to HS again. I’ve been slowly building my legal practice and have started to actually have some traction. It breaks my heart to think about pulling back. But she’s been consistent about how much she hates school because it “wastes 7 hours of each day” which is “almost her whole entire childhood” doing stupid things other people make her do. And… I mean… I know that she’s kind of right. 
 

But man I don’t want to HS again. Even if I was able to outsource a lot, I don’t have the bandwidth to manage and oversee. 
 

So wise Hive Minds. What do I do?  How do I decide?  I’ve told her that she has to finish this year because she’s never had a normal school year and she is learning.  A lot. I was so worried about her being behind but she’s shown huge improvements. But I seriously doubt she’s going to let this drop at the end of this year. She’s just not that kind of person. 
 

I talked to my therapist and she suggested testing to make sure there isn’t something like ADD or processing stuff going on. I casually mentioned to her that we were going to have her do some computer games to see if there’s anything making school harder and she started yelling that I was trying to change who she was. So while I still want to pursue that, I’m starting slower with having her meet with the therapist to establish some trust. Youngest is extremely empathetic and takes a lot of other people’s stress on her and I’d like her to learn tools to cope. 

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January Update: Still hates school. I wasn't able to take her to even start with therapist because we got hit with Covid. I've dropped so many "requirements" that I had for my other kids for this one. I don't require a sport. She has zero extra curriculars because she likes a "clear schedule." The ONE thing I've insisted on her doing is piano lessons. She got all of December and until just this week of January off. I told her she had to practice today before she went to play. She spent 10 minutes arguing why she shouldn't have to do piano because she doesn't like it. I told her part of the lesson was that she has to do things she doesn't like.  It went back and forth and back and forth until I resorted to "I'm the grown up and I say you have to do this." She responded with yelling "But I'm EIGHT now! And still no one LISTENS to me!"

You'd think with 2 older kids I'd be slightly better at this than I am now. 

*****************************

I'm updating here because these posts provide a lot of context. Today was another very rough day. School had been virtual due to covid for a few days, and DD was able to sleep in. It's been tough adjusting back to the early mornings (school starts at 7:40). This morning she stated that she didn't want to live and that school was like a prison. She stated she wants to change the world and she can't if she's in school for so long every day. I told her that saying she doesn't want to live is very serious and not something we can ignore. I again brought up the idea of going to a counselor, but she immediately started crying/yelling. Our appointments were interrupted by DD having covid, then by the counselor having covid. I need to reschedule, but I'm doubtful how productive it will be with her being so resistant.

I've emailed the teacher again asking for her thoughts and asking that she talk to the school counselor. The teacher has told us that DD shows no distress at school, that she seems to enjoy it, that she's bright, compassionate, etc. So it's so hard to judge how much of this is just big feelings that are fleeting in the moment, and how much is real. I told her again that I was committed to finding a solution that worked, that I didn't want her to be miserable but that I didn't want to keep pulling her in and out of school. 

This idea about wanting to change the world has come up multiple times. She is a budding environmentalist and cares deeply about nature. I would love to find something that she can do that will make her part of positive change. She sees through anything fake. It needs to be something real. Does anyone have any ideas? 

A few other questions. 1) If we pull her from school, should we offer the same option to her sisters? I don't think that they would want it, but it seems like they might feel we are favoring her if they do want it and we don't offer. I'm an only child, and sometimes sibling dynamics are mysterious to me. 2) Does anyone have any experience / ideas on how to get a kid who is very resistant to counseling but clearly needs it to be more open to it? 3) This is probably the 3rd or 4th time she's talked about not wanting to be alive. What do I do with that? 4) How do I gauge how serious this is in light of the fact that she's happy and engaged at school?  TIA wise hive mind.

Edited February 2, 2022 by lauraw4321
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[Lucy the Valiant]

She sure sounds like the kind of kid who could make home schooling REALLY easy for you and a couple of hired tutors to pull off quite happily.

$.02

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Any luck with private schools in the area? I have a kid whom I love deeply who I will never, ever homeschool again. I think homeschooling has to work for everyone. If it doesn’t work for you, I wouldn’t do it. That’s ok. 
 

Fwiw, when kids are super intense and also a bit rigid, I would have neurodiversity on the radar. You might be seeing personality + giftedness, and it may be more. In any event, I think helping a kid developing tools to cope with the world is a great idea.

[Lecka]

She is the youngest in the family — to me she sounds like she is the youngest in the family.  It’s her personality but it’s also how you can act when you are the youngest!

 

I am the youngest in my family, too.  There are privileges and there are also difficulties.

 

I would not say it’s a favor to take all complaints seriously and say “you don’t have to adjust to things.”  Kids who aren’t the youngest just have to adjust to things, that the youngest doesn’t.  
 

 

At the same time I think you can see how it’s more than something this simplistic.

 

Personally I think your needs matter more than hers, if she is not objectively suffering.  That is just how I am.  It doesn’t sound to me like she’s objectively suffering, it sounds like she has wants.  
 

I would really think about her free time outside of school.  Personally my kids are extremely unscheduled outside of school, and they have hours and hours of free time.  But they don’t do hardly anything outside of school.

 

With homeschooling you might be used to doing a different level of activity than you might consider when there is a need for free time that is not a need for someone who is homeschooled and might naturally have a lot of free time.

 

For kids in public school, IMO, the time is there, but it’s what you do with it.  If there is a need for free time, it just takes up a lot of time outside of school, even all the time.  
 

That is just my thoughts. 

 

[lauraw4321]

22 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

She sure sounds like the kind of kid who could make home schooling REALLY easy for you and a couple of hired tutors to pull off quite happily.

$.02

 

She’s my most extroverted kid. Right now she gets time with kids at school and then immediately goes to play with neighborhood kids when she gets home and usually we have to drag her in when it’s dark. I worry that she’s going to need so much social interaction on top of school that it’s going to take up a ton of time.  Finding and establishing a school-like tribe takes a lot of time and dedication. 

[lauraw4321]

1 minute ago, Lecka said:

She is the youngest in the family — to me she sounds like she is the youngest in the family.  It’s her personality but it’s also how you can act when you are the youngest!

 

I am the youngest in my family, too.  There are privileges and there are also difficulties.

 

I would not say it’s a favor to take all complaints seriously and say “you don’t have to adjust to things.”  Kids who aren’t the youngest just have to adjust to things, that the youngest doesn’t.  
 

 

At the same time I think you can see how it’s more than something this simplistic.

 

Personally I think your needs matter more than hers, if she is not objectively suffering.  That is just how I am.  It doesn’t sound to me like she’s objectively suffering, it sounds like she has wants.  
 

I would really think about her free time outside of school.  Personally my kids are extremely unscheduled outside of school, and they have hours and hours of free time.  But they don’t do hardly anything outside of school.

 

With homeschooling you might be used to doing a different level of activity than you might consider when there is a need for free time that is not a need for someone who is homeschooled and might naturally have a lot of free time.

 

For kids in public school, IMO, the time is there, but it’s what you do with it.  If there is a need for free time, it just takes up a lot of time outside of school, even all the time.  
 

That is just my thoughts. 

 

She has zero extra curriculars as her demand because she wants free time. She stays after school 30 minutes one day for chess club, and we’re dropping that. 
 

And I don’t know about the suffering. There are a lot of tears. Nearly daily. 
 

I’m an only child. I’m married to an oldest. I don’t really know what you’re referring to in terms of younger kids not having to adjust. Can you expand?

[Lecka]

Also for one of my kids, it goes a long way if he can have no plans on Saturdays, just a whole day to do what he wants.  Sure it’s not every day — but one day goes a really long way.  We just have to account for that in planning to the extent it is possible.  

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

She’s my most extroverted kid. Right now she gets time with kids at school and then immediately goes to play with neighborhood kids when she gets home and usually we have to drag her in when it’s dark. I worry that she’s going to need so much social interaction on top of school that it’s going to take up a ton of time.  Finding and establishing a school-like tribe takes a lot of time and dedication. 

Yeah. I think it's a full-time job with social kids (which mine are.) 

Why does she feel like school is wasting her time? Would a different kind of school work better? 

[lauraw4321]

28 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Any luck with private schools in the area? I have a kid whom I love deeply who I will never, ever homeschool again. I think homeschooling has to work for everyone. If it doesn’t work for you, I wouldn’t do it. That’s ok. 
 

Fwiw, when kids are super intense and also a bit rigid, I would have neurodiversity on the radar. You might be seeing personality + giftedness, and it may be more. In any event, I think helping a kid developing tools to cope with the world is a great idea.

Thanks. Private schools are all a no go. There is a hybrid public school that I think could be a great fit. She would do school in class 2 days a week and then be home 3. But the school is a 30 minute drive away and that just sound exhausting on top of having a middle schooler and a high schooler next year. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lauraw4321 said:

Thanks. Private schools are all a no go. There is a hybrid public school that I think could be a great fit. She would do school in class 2 days a week and then be home 3. But the school is a 30 minute drive away and that just sound exhausting on top of having a middle schooler and a high schooler next year. 

What's wrong with the private schools? 

[lauraw4321]

1 minute ago, Lecka said:

Also for one of my kids, it goes a long way if he can have no plans on Saturdays, just a whole day to do what he wants.  Sure it’s not every day — but one day goes a really long way.  We just have to account for that in planning to the extent it is possible.  

This kid definitely gets the vast majority of Saturday’s free. She will leave in the morning and not be back until night. She has a watch and we use that to keep up with her and we know all the kids and neighbors. If there are ever Saturday plans, she’s pissed. 

[Shoeless]

I would look into cottage schools and/or democratic schools. Something where she has more control over how her time is spent, but also someplace where she can go and noodle around with other kids while you work.

[lauraw4321]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

What's wrong with the private schools? 

All of them are Christian (which I am) but I don’t trust them for lots of reasons that are too long to explain. 
 

there’s one that isn’t, but it costs more than in state college tuition. 

[lauraw4321]

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

I would look into cottage schools and/or democratic schools. Something where she has more control over how her time is spent, but also someplace where she can go and noodle around with other kids while you work.

I live in Alabama. They just don’t exist here. There’s one school that a friend started that’s similar to what you describe but it only goes to K so far. 

[lauraw4321]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah. I think it's a full-time job with social kids (which mine are.) 

Why does she feel like school is wasting her time? Would a different kind of school work better? 

She has HSed. She knows that it doesn’t really take 7 hours to learn what you need to learn in a day.  She sees through the facade that is public school. 

[Shoeless]

Just now, lauraw4321 said:

I live in Alabama. They just don’t exist here. There’s one school that a friend started that’s similar to what you describe but it only goes to K so far. 

Understood. It's slim pickins in my corner of Texas, too.

You mentioned there is a hybrid school where she could do 2 days there, 3 days at home. Is there any way to make that commute less terrible? Carpool with another family? You take the morning drive, your spouse takes the evening pickup?

[Lecka]

Well — I just never had to adjust to a lot of things my older sisters did.  I could just do things how I wanted.  I had a lot of attention from older siblings and they adjusted to me.  
 

So it is December?  And she has been crying every day?  My first thought is if she is tired.  But then I also think — if this goes on, and it’s always about the same thing — that would make a difference.

 

However I wound also consider, does she think all day could be like the part when all the kids are out playing?  She might not realize that.  My kids have not realized some things like that.  
 

I would also ask the teacher some pointed questions.  
 

It can be worth it to ask the teacher questions, maybe advocate with the teacher, etc.  

 

She sounds like a kid who might love group work in school, which picks up as kids go through the grades — there is probably not much actual group work for her age.  But that is where a lot of the social time and chatting happens, and it might pick up even in 2nd grade.  
 

I would also really wonder if there are Covid restrictions on seating or mixing?  Those could be having a negative effect for sure.  They might be doing things that way even without advertising it, who knows.  

[Lecka]

Really there might be something wrong at school you could possibly improve.  It is possible sometimes when you know your child and the teacher doesn’t see what you see at home.  

[lauraw4321]

1 minute ago, Lecka said:

Well — I just never had to adjust to a lot of things my older sisters did.  I could just do things how I wanted.  I had a lot of attention from older siblings and they adjusted to me.  
 

So it is December?  And she has been crying every day?  My first thought is if she is tired.  But then I also think — if this goes on, and it’s always about the same thing — that would make a difference.

 

However I wound also consider, does she think all day could be like the part when all the kids are out playing?  She might not realize that.  My kids have not realized some things like that.  
 

I would also ask the teacher some pointed questions.  
 

It can be worth it to ask the teacher questions, maybe advocate with the teacher, etc.  

 

She sounds like a kid who might love group work in school, which picks up as kids go through the grades — there is probably not much actual group work for her age.  But that is where a lot of the social time and chatting happens, and it might pick up even in 2nd grade.  
 

I would also really wonder if there are Covid restrictions on seating or mixing?  Those could be having a negative effect for sure.  They might be doing things that way even without advertising it, who knows.  

Thanks, I see what you mean about not having to adjust as much. 
 

We have talked to her teacher who had no idea that she was unhappy. She was able to articulate that she didn’t like her table because the two kids she sat with exhausted her. I emailed teacher and teacher moved her. Teacher said “you would have thought she won the lottery.” She doesn’t show any distress at school. Kid said “if I’m sad at school someone might think it’s because I don’t want to see them and that might make them sad.” Seriously, so empathetic. I’m trying to have her start noticing other things that we can maybe improve. 
 

This has been going on for several months. And I talked to her about how all her friends would be at school during the day. She said “I know, and that’s fine. I can just play with my imagination”. 
 

I’m sure we could figure out how to make the hybrid school work, it just exhausts me to add another flipping’ thing. I already know a few families who go there. But I’ll have a freshman and a 6th grader (middle school here) in addition. 

[Lecka]

I am not totally sure this is related to being a youngest child — but as far as seeing through the facade of school — having older siblings means things have move been done before and they have been done in different ways.  There is not so much of an unquestioning acceptance that whatever is being done is just the default way things are done.  They obviously aren’t because siblings have done different things.  Even if something is technically the same — something about it will have changed or be different.  Even if it’s something small and inconsequential, it is enough to show it’s not the same and I feel like I would question that because of just knowing what my siblings had done and remembering things, and I think without that experience it is more like kids are doing something new or the first time.  
 

So I think that might come up — if she knows “well this isn’t just how things are always done” then how can she accept that — while kids who aren’t aware are less likely to question it.  
 

I wouldn’t discount that, but I think it’s also just not possible for everyone in a family to have the same experience.  Even if it’s something like — the dance teacher had recitals one way for years and then it changes, or the piano teacher quits taking beginning students, or just anything — things do change. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Can u hire an au pair and make the 3/2 school work? ITA that if you are building a practice and have other things going on in your life that you are already stretched. I’d brainstorm to see what’s in the realm of feasibility but give yourself some grace if it’s not workable. The decisions you make this year and next don’t have to be forever ones.

[katilac]

20 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

She’s my most extroverted kid. Right now she gets time with kids at school and then immediately goes to play with neighborhood kids when she gets home and usually we have to drag her in when it’s dark. I worry that she’s going to need so much social interaction on top of school that it’s going to take up a ton of time.  Finding and establishing a school-like tribe takes a lot of time and dedication. 

Having a group of neighborhood kids to play with every day is a huge plus!

I think she's old enough to have a conversation about this. "You have to understand you would be working on your own during the school day. You will have park day on Tuesdays (or whatever), and then you can play with the neighbor kids from after school until dinner. How do you feel about not seeing kids all day like you do at school?" 

Personally, I think the social time is pretty limited at most schools, she might not miss it that much. 

And she might not completely understand what it will be like, but the good thing is that it's not a permanent decision. She can always go back. And honestly, if I felt like she wasn't going to let it go, I'd be very tempted to not make a 2nd grader who cries about school on a regular basis finish the year. The early grades are pretty low stakes, you need to keep on top of reading and math skills, and everything else is gravy. There does not have to be a tremendous amount of organizing and overseeing at this age - pick some curricula and roll with it. 

Have you spent some time thinking about homeschooling her might look very different from homeschooling your other kids? Not just outsourcing (which is hard in the early grades unless there is a co-op or lots of random classes), but overall. What are possible ways to homeschool her while still building up your law practice and retaining your sanity? 

• Can you hire some help? This might be a college student willing to oversee some work plus play games with her, maybe at a more reasonable rate because they live close by and you can be very flexible around their school schedule (the flexibility is huge for college students; if they can work one schedule this semester and a different one the next semester, and take off time for finals, that's a big plus). Maybe it looks like a mother's helper who basically plays with her, maybe some educational games, but mostly taking on some of the social aspect. 
• Is there a co-op that could take up a chunk of a couple of days? Park days? A mom you could pay to take her there, and maybe even for a bit before and after? 
• What level of one-on-one and direct teaching/supervision do you feel would be manageable? If the answer is zero, then she has to stay in school unless you have the money to do a mix of the above. But if you feel good about 60-90 minutes every day, with a longer school year or a six day week, and some of the above, that could work extremely well. 
• Maybe something of a Montessori approach, where she has lessons with you for that short period each day, and then independent learning and worthy pursuits the rest of the time. 
• She can do camps in the summer and during holiday breaks. I can't remember if you have a partner who could help out or not, but you could also bribe the older kids for certain things, lol. Homeschool doesn't have to follow a standard school schedule, so yay for science experiments in the evening, and camps can fill in a lot of extras. My kids did Shakespeare camp, wetlands camp, all kinds of things. 

I think it's possible to homeschool her without pumping the brakes on your law practice, as long as it doesn't make the other kids want to come home again. I don't know what resources are available near you (co-ops, classes), but I think it's very solvable in general IF you have some money to throw at the problem. 

Don't be reluctant to include her in the brainstorming. She might have some great ideas! 

[katilac]

26 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

 This has been going on for several months. And I talked to her about how all her friends would be at school during the day. She said “I know, and that’s fine. I can just play with my imagination”. 

I’m sure we could figure out how to make the hybrid school work, it just exhausts me to add another flipping’ thing. I already know a few families who go there. But I’ll have a freshman and a 6th grader (middle school here) in addition. 

If she is able to "play with (her) imagination" then that is a fabulous plus. She sounds like a smart. self-aware kid. My oldest tried kindergarten (for an entire month, lol) and had the same complaint of it taking all of her time.  

I personally always felt like just doing our own thing was easier than managing a school or co-op, but others feel differently. Could you pay for her to ride with any of those families? 

How long does she get for winter break? Is it long enough to do a trial run? Spend an hour with her each day on math and reading skills, set up an independent folder or bin of work, make a list of worthy pursuits, and release her at X time to play with neighbor kids. The kids around here get a pitifully short break, but I know some kids get longer. 

[bookbard]

So is there any chance your husband could take this on, if you've done all the homeschooling so far?

[Lecka]

Would your older kids be getting more independent?  I don’t really see having a student in high school as exhausting at all?  Sixth grade also — not so much. 

Yes it’s two new schools probably, but is this a lot more than getting them on the bus?  

Could something be done in an easier way with them?

Honestly — I think the imagination thing and presence of neighborhood kids say a lot for it not being overwhelming with her? 

IF you think that is an accurate self-assessment.  
 

If you think reality is she would be bored and wanting to be on electronics or needing time with someone (you!) while you would be busy, I think that is a different situation.

 

I also think a pp makes a good point.  Can your husband do something to help you be less flipping exhausted?  Could he do something with the older kids or the younger one?  Is there something else he could do, with household tasks, to help?
 

Or is it time to spend money to help with things you used to do, but you will be working instead?

 

I think it might be an investment to spend some money for you to get started in your work even if you aren’t bringing in as much — I think that is pretty normal.  
 

Also to think of things as household expenses and not “I have to replace what I could be doing myself.”

 

I think all that is worth exploring.

 

But I also think if it’s just not realistic to come up with plans and execute them — it is okay not to.  
 

But if there are things where the older kids could be more independent, money would help, your husband could help, etc, I think that’s all worth thinking about.

But I do think the youngest child is just one person in the family and it doesn’t work to do things to be great for her, if it doesn’t work within the whole family.  Honestly she objectively has got a lot of free time.  She really does.  At least that’s how I look at it.  

 

 

[Carrie12345]

No advice to add to what’s been thrown out there, but I do think “babies” of homeschoolers have their own special edge! My eldest loathed homeschooling. The next two (a near-twinsie group) disliked it for the most part, but were eventually glad to not be in high school. #4 is indifferent to how things are done. But The Baby… He intends to be a homeschool dad. The concept of regular school is ridiculous to him.

I do hope you’re able to find a solution that works for everyone.

 

(Also, I expect to continue hanging out here for a very long time, even if I stop wanting to for myself at some point. I might need to keep my networks strong and wide to help this kid find the right partner eventually. 😉)

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

I casually mentioned to her that we were going to have her do some computer games to see if there’s anything making school harder and she started yelling that I was trying to change who she was.

What's with this?? Why not get an actual qualified psych, someone used to working with gifted kids??? https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm 

1-do personality testing

2-get her talking with a psych (not a counselor) who knows giftedness. They need to tease through whether there's some anxiety going on there.

3-get better tools and words for whatever you're seeing. When you're saying she sees through the facade of the ps, you better watch out. That means she sees through half-.... measures, sees through counselors who aren't qualified to work with her, sees through psychs who don't know how to help her, etc. My dd was like that, and it took multiple phds to sort things out. We used a phd counselor *and* a phd psychologist, both at the same time. 

Then I will tell you what the p-doc told us about my ds. Tears=depression. I was like oh tears are because he's going into puberty, tears are this and that. And the pdoc was like nope, tears=low serotonin. That's not saying put her on an SSRI but when you're having volatile emotional reactions, tears every day, and symptoms of anxiety (that hyper anxious response of "you're trying to change me") then you have chemistry on board. You can do meds. You can decide she's always been this way and it's genetics. You can run 23andme and use those results to target some supplements for things that affect serotonin and see if you can get it up that way. (TPH2, VDR, MTHFR, etc.) It's not as hard as it sounds.

If she has always been this way, you could have genetics being aggravated by a situation. No half measures, no computer games. Go all in. PhDs who can actually answer her questions and addressing the chemistry. Think about the inverse. If it's chemistry and you don't do phds and don't address the chemistry, you're basically saying mind over matter and leaving her frustrated. When my dd was young, I had no clue the intensity of what she was feeling and why, just wasn't my experience. Genetics are a funny thing though. She got *one* of my things where I had more genes that were balancing it out. So my own mix was stable enough that I didn't present the way she did. She got only the one. If she has been this way a long time, I would assume it's genetics/chemistry, not the situation, which means changing the situation is only a patch.

Personally, I would bring her home and homeschool her, probably hiring a tutor, and I would make it very strict contractually. Two hours with the tutor every day, she completes assignments using google classroom or something to keep track, and if she's a pain in the butt she returns. Meanwhile, phds and something for the chemistry. 

Does she have any sensory oddities? If she does, you need to rabbit down that a bit.

[kristin0713]

Homeschooling if you hate it is just miserable. But so is dealing with a kid that fights you and cries every.single.day. I'm wondering if there is something else going on with her. She's a social kid who cries everyday about going to school because it is a waste of time...it doesn't totally fit. Could it be anxiety or OCD manifesting in defiance? The therapist already mentioned ADD.  I very highly suggest getting her tested to rule out any underlying causes. Just as a side note, my DD fought me on so many things when she was younger and I didn't recognize that it was anxiety and OCD. 

She is in second grade this year? 

IMO, kids need the most support and direct instruction in the elementary years. They absolutely need it for math and I also believe that lots of read aloud and discussion time is ideal. When people ask how they can work FT and homeschool, I just cringe. I know you're not asking that, but I don't see how you could continue to build a law firm and homeschool her, and I definitely agree that you should not sacrifice your career in this situation. Mainly because you don't want to and I think you would regret that years down the road. The hybrid school sounds like it could be a good compromise. I agree that the driving sounds like a drag, but it is only two days a week, and maybe you can carpool with the people that you know. Can your DH help with the driving?

I also think that if she is an extrovert, her social needs WILL become a thing for you to manage after she has been home for a while. Right now her needs are met because she is with people all day. It doesn't matter that it is not "social" time - extroverts crave the interaction with other people which she is getting.  It is really, really draining for me to try to meet the social needs of my kids, way more than educating them.  

I hope you find a solution that works for you. 

 

[lauraw4321]

27 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What's with this?? Why not get an actual qualified psych, someone used to working with gifted kids??? https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm 

1-do personality testing

2-get her talking with a psych (not a counselor) who knows giftedness. They need to tease through whether there's some anxiety going on there.

3-get better tools and words for whatever you're seeing. When you're saying she sees through the facade of the ps, you better watch out. That means she sees through half-.... measures, sees through counselors who aren't qualified to work with her, sees through psychs who don't know how to help her, etc. My dd was like that, and it took multiple phds to sort things out. We used a phd counselor *and* a phd psychologist, both at the same time. 

Then I will tell you what the p-doc told us about my ds. Tears=depression. I was like oh tears are because he's going into puberty, tears are this and that. And the pdoc was like nope, tears=low serotonin. That's not saying put her on an SSRI but when you're having volatile emotional reactions, tears every day, and symptoms of anxiety (that hyper anxious response of "you're trying to change me") then you have chemistry on board. You can do meds. You can decide she's always been this way and it's genetics. You can run 23andme and use those results to target some supplements for things that affect serotonin and see if you can get it up that way. (TPH2, VDR, MTHFR, etc.) It's not as hard as it sounds.

If she has always been this way, you could have genetics being aggravated by a situation. No half measures, no computer games. Go all in. PhDs who can actually answer her questions and addressing the chemistry. Think about the inverse. If it's chemistry and you don't do phds and don't address the chemistry, you're basically saying mind over matter and leaving her frustrated. When my dd was young, I had no clue the intensity of what she was feeling and why, just wasn't my experience. Genetics are a funny thing though. She got *one* of my things where I had more genes that were balancing it out. So my own mix was stable enough that I didn't present the way she did. She got only the one. If she has been this way a long time, I would assume it's genetics/chemistry, not the situation, which means changing the situation is only a patch.

Personally, I would bring her home and homeschool her, probably hiring a tutor, and I would make it very strict contractually. Two hours with the tutor every day, she completes assignments using google classroom or something to keep track, and if she's a pain in the butt she returns. Meanwhile, phds and something for the chemistry. 

Does she have any sensory oddities? If she does, you need to rabbit down that a bit.

It is a real PhD and a real evaluation. I was just trying to explain to her what was happening. Obviously it was a serious fail. It’s a full eval.  No odd sensory stuff.  
 

 

[lauraw4321]

27 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

Homeschooling if you hate it is just miserable. But so is dealing with a kid that fights you and cries every.single.day. I'm wondering if there is something else going on with her. She's a social kid who cries everyday about going to school because it is a waste of time...it doesn't totally fit. Could it be anxiety or OCD manifesting in defiance? The therapist already mentioned ADD.  I very highly suggest getting her tested to rule out any underlying causes. Just as a side note, my DD fought me on so many things when she was younger and I didn't recognize that it was anxiety and OCD. 

She is in second grade this year? 

IMO, kids need the most support and direct instruction in the elementary years. They absolutely need it for math and I also believe that lots of read aloud and discussion time is ideal. When people ask how they can work FT and homeschool, I just cringe. I know you're not asking that, but I don't see how you could continue to build a law firm and homeschool her, and I definitely agree that you should not sacrifice your career in this situation. Mainly because you don't want to and I think you would regret that years down the road. The hybrid school sounds like it could be a good compromise. I agree that the driving sounds like a drag, but it is only two days a week, and maybe you can carpool with the people that you know. Can your DH help with the driving?

I also think that if she is an extrovert, her social needs WILL become a thing for you to manage after she has been home for a while. Right now her needs are met because she is with people all day. It doesn't matter that it is not "social" time - extroverts crave the interaction with other people which she is getting.  It is really, really draining for me to try to meet the social needs of my kids, way more than educating them.  

I hope you find a solution that works for you. 

 

Thanks. She is in 2nd grade. I agree it needs hands on and not easy to delegate. 

[Lecka]

The other thing I think about “seeing through the facade” is — when I was the age of this daughter, I shared my home with teens.  Of course I didn’t think the same way as other kids who didn’t have a teen influence.  I was exposed to teens and things they talked about — not in some bad way, but just in the sense that they had their own views that were not the same as my parents, and so I came to that in a way I think kids don’t who are being influenced by someone only a little older.

It is also easy, sometimes, to want to skip ahead to what the older kids are doing.

This is a personal thing with my sister, but she let my younger niece hang out with my older niece during the pandemic, and low and behold, my younger niece spent a lot of time hanging out with college kids who worked and lived on their own, and then she “saw through the facade” of high school.  
 

This is probably pretty obvious!

 

But I had feelings like this a lot and had to learn to like my own stage of life.

 

I don’t think this has direct bearing on this situation, but it is something to keep in mind about younger kids.  They really do idolize their older siblings.  
 

I do also wonder about school?  She does sound like someone who should like school.  And yes in that time that is not needed in homeschool — I think a lot of that time is social on a certain level.  A level that does work for a lot of kids.  But if there are pandemic restrictions that has burdened a lot of kids with a restricted experience that is just problematic.  
 

Or there could be something else going on.

 

There might be something to do as far as checking in with the teacher or school.  
 

If she is finishing the year I think it’s a must.  

[lauraw4321]

Responding to a few things people have brought up. 
 

1. Oldest DD and DH have pretty severe ADHD. Both are medicated, but I still provide a lot of EF for both of them. So high school will definitely be more involved than putting her on a bus. 
2. DH is always an advocate for simplifying rather than taking on more responsibilities and work. So while he supports having DD tested, trying to find how to make school better, he’s not going to be willing to take on HSing. He would be ok if I do, although he’s worried about how I would manage it all. 
3. I think the hybrid school might be a good solution, but it just stretches me even thinner than I already am (which is really dang thin).

4. We’ve had Au pairs before and that worked well when I was making $$$, but we can’t swing it right now. 
5. Finding / managing tutoring or childcare support is a lot of work. 
 

I appreciate the suggestions and ideas. It helps me think about how it could work. I have hired help with my law firm, which will hopefully give me some more margin. I want to get that working well before I jump back into HS. 

[Lecka]

That makes sense with your older kids.  I had not realized that, I was the person who made that comment.  Definitely I see that now!

[City Mouse]

If you can’t do it, you can’t do it.

My DS really wanted to attend a specific school when he started 6th grade. I really wanted it for him too, but there was just no way. I would have had to stop working to make the commute, but then we would not have been able to afford the vehicle to make the daily drive. It was disappointing for us both, but we couldn’t make it work. 

Things changed when he was starting 11th grade and could drive himself and had much better work habits by then, so he was able to attend the desired school for his last 2 years. It still makes me sad that we couldn’t support his preference from 6th grade, but you know what, he survived and was even happy most of the time. There were times when the second choice turn  to be a better option for a time.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with talking to your DD and letting her know that homeschooling just won’t work right now, but when she is older and more independent the choice could be revisited.

Also, don’t think that homeschooling will get rid of all the drama. She is a girl. The drama will just move on to a different focus.

[thewellerman]

Is she gifted?  A strong reader? She might not need a bunch of worksheets and daily tutoring.  You might be able to just tell her the minimums of what she needs to know and give her some books so she can figure it out. Maybe a mix of workbooks and instruction books.  There are a lot of educational books, even for math, that aren't like a textbook. 

If she can stay at least a year ahead of the school on her own, and fill her days with her own pursuits, and a lot of varied reading, then maybe an unschooling approach could work for her.  For my kids, they were motivated to learn the basics when they reached a level in their personal goals that required the knowledge.  It is amazing how quickly a motivated and smart kid can learn all of elementary school math.  

You could try a blend for now.  Tell her she has to stay in school this year, but if she can get a year ahead before school starts next year, then she can stay home.  If you aren't worried about her being behind, then you can be more free to play in to her personality and learning style.  

Next year, she could take outschool classes that appeal to her, and maybe use Duolingo and Beast Academy.  Give her a really long reading list and just require that she be reading something of value, and hour or two a day, at least. You'll just be in a conversational and supportive role with her, making sure she is moving forward in some way.  

I'm not advocating for skipping evaluations or not working through issues that might be causing her stress at school, but if the real issue is that she is bored all day, then maybe you can give her some freedom.  You mentioned she was behind and is learning a lot at school, but that doesn't mean she isn't bored and that she couldn't learn it more quickly.  

[Katy]

I think in your situation I’d keep her in school. If you’re stretched thin capacity wise and don’t have a budget for an au pair the answer is, “Most kids in the world go to school all day.  Your job is school. It’s not possible to homeschool you at this time. It’s time for you to adjust your expectations and plan on being at school for the indefinite future.”

If there’s something else going on like bullying, anxiety, or ADHD, it obviously should be addressed, but it is not an unreasonable expectation for her to go to school all day like most other children just because she knows she likes home school better. It’s time to adjust to reality and focus on the positive. 

[Katy]

Also I don’t think independent learning is a reasonable expectation of a second grader or even third grader. I might consider it for 4th grade & up if they had all the math facts memorized and were unusually responsible in other areas. It would be out of the question for now though.  Everyone does things they don’t love.  That’s life. 

[lauraw4321]

48 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

If there’s something else going on like bullying, anxiety, or ADHD, it obviously should be addressed, but it is not an unreasonable expectation for her to go to school all day like most other children just because she knows she likes home school better. It’s time to adjust to reality and focus on the positive. 

I’ve literally told her that. 🙂 Her response is that she then wants for school to not exist so that no one has to go to school. I’ve tried explaining that we’re lucky to have school. Going down the path of logic with her always leads to yet another place. She’s a smart one. 

[PronghornD]

I wonder if you could find a compatible homeschool family who would enfold her into their homeschool for a reasonable price.

[lauraw4321]

Just now, PronghornD said:

I wonder if you could find a compatible homeschool family who would enfold her into their homeschool for a reasonable price.

That is an interesting idea. 

[Katy]

Can she think of three good things that happen in school each day?  Maybe she can have a small gratitude journal (or you can keep one for her) so she can start to focus on that rather than the free play time she’s not getting. 

[Soror]

I think I'd leave her in too. I hate that school is long for young kids but I don't see a way for it to work with your schedule without immense stress. Maybe in a few years it would be more feasible with your older ones launched, her more able to be independent, and more time to get your practice established.

[theelfqueen]

Ok ... so looking at that Hybrid option - could you and DH split the commute?

Could you make one day a week your homeschool day?

Could DH take on one day a week - maybe only formal school in the AM  or could you hire someone for just one day a week? Could it be school in the woods day?  Could the 5th day be some enrichment and some light schooling (like free read, swim lessons, language class, outschool class, watch documentaries, do a couple of workbook pages?) Could Saturday school be part of an equation? 

What are the standards in your state? What would you feel comfortable with in an outside the box sort of way? 

Edited December 9, 2021 by theelfqueen

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

pretty severe ADHD

An OT eval could turn up stuff. They can help with emotional regulation too. And you probably know this, but at a point "pretty severe ADHD" = ASD. So if she's jumped over the line, that could be why she's presenting a touch farther than everyone else. And in girls, it's wicked easy for it to get dismissed. Again, back to the Hoagies Gifted and making sure you get a 2nd and 3rd opinion. Given the IQ and ability to mask, it's going to look pretty subtle.

3 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

Obviously it was a serious fail.

It wasn't a fail. It was information, a data point, because you're seeing how she responds to things. Sometimes things become more obvious with time and you look back at those data points and realize *why* she responded that way. It had nothing to do with you and was HER and how she responds to things. It's part and parcel of what is bugging you, not some failure on your part. My dd was very much like that, sigh. Ironically, my ds who is ASD2 is much more chilled. 

1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

I’ve literally told her that. 🙂 Her response is that she then wants for school to not exist so that no one has to go to school. I’ve tried explaining that we’re lucky to have school. Going down the path of logic with her always leads to yet another place. She’s a smart one. 

Have you read much about Social Thinking? https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  Try this article, which gives profiles for social thinking rather than strapping you into DSM diagnoses. I'm wondering where her social thinking is on this. Does she acknowledge it's the *law* that you attend school? Does she get that many kids *enjoy* school? Perspective taking and understanding social structures (we're not all equal in our family, who is in charge, how the world works, etc.) are part of social thinking, and you can have issues there with or without a label. (see article)

It sounds like clear, consistent expectations would be good. If you're paying someone to do the tutoring, then it's just very matter of fact (they show up consistently, you do it with them or go back to school). If it's you, you're back to you being hassled. Or just keep her in school. 

Has the school tested her to get her into a gifted program? Does your state have a magnet/gifted school system you could get her into? If you bring her home and have the evals, could you get her into online classes for the gifted, get her a mentor, etc.? 

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

I’ve literally told her that. 🙂 Her response is that she then wants for school to not exist so that no one has to go to school. I’ve tried explaining that we’re lucky to have school. Going down the path of logic with her always leads to yet another place. She’s a smart one. 

but it's not logical for her to want school not to exist nor for her to expect mom to drop her business so she can do what she wants at home. she has to take others into consideration, for school existing and for mom having a business and dad having to work.

So thinking about this after reading a lot of the posts why not tell her the truth from the OP in a kid sort of fashion? there's no way to logic out of the truth of the situation as you lay it out in your original post. it is what you and dh think is best for her to be in school, for you, for him, for her, for the family as a whole. you have just gotten to a point where your business is going well and you cannot homeschool because it takes too many resources that you need for your business right now. there is no logic-trail because what is best is subjective. she might not see it as best for her right now but you're her parents and you can see the whole picture. 

[Carol in Cal.]

She is at an age where she is right—going to school is nutsy inefficient and homeschooling is sure to leave her with a lot more discretionary time.  

If you don’t like homeschooling and would resent her if you had to start doing it, then you have to figure out something else.  If you enjoyed it and could simmer down your career a bit to make it happen, and not resent that, then this sounds like a good time to do it for a while.  Or if you could bring other resources to bear on it, like hiring a great private tutor, that might be a workable compromise.  

[lauraw4321]

15 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

but it's not logical for her to want school not to exist nor for her to expect mom to drop her business so she can do what she wants at home. she has to take others into consideration, for school existing and for mom having a business and dad having to work.

So thinking about this after reading a lot of the posts why not tell her the truth from the OP in a kid sort of fashion? there's no way to logic out of the truth of the situation as you lay it out in your original post. it is what you and dh think is best for her to be in school, for you, for him, for her, for the family as a whole. you have just gotten to a point where your business is going well and you cannot homeschool because it takes too many resources that you need for your business right now. there is no logic-trail because what is best is subjective. she might not see it as best for her right now but you're her parents and you can see the whole picture. 

Yeah money is definitely a really vague concept and above her head. She also wants for work to not exist and for us all to always be together, especially for every dinner and evening (which we are except 1 day a week). I think she’s going to REALLY love heaven. 😂

[Lecka]

I’m just going to comment that I accept that school for this age is not just education, it is also supervision.  I think that is okay.  

[kbutton]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

What's with this?? Why not get an actual qualified psych, someone used to working with gifted kids??? https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/psychologists.htm 

2-get her talking with a psych (not a counselor) who knows giftedness. They need to tease through whether there's some anxiety going on there.

3-get better tools and words for whatever you're seeing. When you're saying she sees through the facade of the ps, you better watch out. That means she sees through half-.... measures, sees through counselors who aren't qualified to work with her, sees through psychs who don't know how to help her, etc. My dd was like that, and it took multiple phds to sort things out. We used a phd counselor *and* a phd psychologist, both at the same time. 

We are a family that has done evals more than once, and it's been beneficial. My kids are 2e, DH is 2e, I think I probably had some auditory processing issues that are much better now. 

OP, I think your DD sounds anxious, bored, and maybe several other possibilities mixed together. I would not be surprised if she has some come of imposter syndrome feelings tucked in there (the bane of many gifted people, especially females). It could be that she has milder ADHD or something else going on that makes her feel like she's on the edge of competence all the time, contributing to something like imposter syndrome. I was that way in school, and I think a lot of it was likely APD knowing what I know now about it. (One of my kids had it and has had therapy, though mine, if it existed, was more straightforward than his.) It's also just not unusual for some types of gifted kids to have things be relatively easy, and then if something is less easy (or just different--less rote, asks them to be more intuitive, etc.), they get anxious about it, even if they gravitate toward challenging themselves with their hobbies and interests.

I think her extreme reaction at that age to evaluations is really striking and might be from anxiety. My kids have been pretty nonchalant about their evals, and they pretty much always enjoy interacting with the person testing them. They have a mix of giftedness, a couple of overt issues, and lots of really narrow but deep problems that cause them to struggle in ways that take people by surprise. 

We also have a connective tissue disorder in the mix, and it's surprisingly the ways it weaves into and out of learning issues in ways you wouldn't expect. I suspect CTDs don't cause learning issues, but I would not be surprised if they exacerbate them. It's an area that comes up in research, they find it's too close of a call to say learning issues are more prevalent, and then the experts drop it for a while in favor of solving comparatively more clearcut medical issues instead.

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

It wasn't a fail. It was information, a data point, because you're seeing how she responds to things. Sometimes things become more obvious with time and you look back at those data points and realize *why* she responded that way. It had nothing to do with you and was HER and how she responds to things. It's part and parcel of what is bugging you, not some failure on your part.

Has the school tested her to get her into a gifted program? Does your state have a magnet/gifted school system you could get her into? 

Yes, on the bolded! Keep a list of this kind of stuff.

You might also find community-based gifted enrichment. This program is near me, and it's excellent. It might give you an idea of what you could look for.  https://www.supersaturday.org/ 

ETA: Here is a class sampling, though it's a little different due to Covid precautions than when my kids were eligible. https://www.supersaturday.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/CurrentClassList.pdf  

Edited December 9, 2021 by kbutton

[catz]

I haven't read all the responses, but I do think the #1 ingredient needed for successful homeschooling is an engaged parent who actually WANTS to do it.  I don't think there is anything wrong with outsourcing subjects, etc.  We did quite a bit of this over the years. But I wouldn't trust a couple tutors/classes on the assumption that I wouldn't need to still be involved as a coordinator and facilator and evaluator on a day to day basis.  

I do have one kid that would have been categorized profoundly gifted and asynchronous and another that is probably highly gifted but more artistically and socially gifted.  Both were definitely quirky especially during the elementary years.  I would spend the money for a full neuropsych eval to get the full picture.  I would look at the available educational options (private, public, charter, atypical, etc) you have open to you. I think it is fine and fair to tell a child that homeschooling isn't going to work for you.  Children this age often don't know all the options on the table or can verbalize why exactly they don't like something.  If you are working with a therapist and working full time and starting to enjoy that, maybe this isn't the time to take on homeschooling if that wasn't your thing.  

For gifted kids in elementary, I think it's key to find them some positive social groups and something to engage them.  In many areas, there are more options for those kids at Middle School and High school level.  Might extracurriculars help with enrichment?  Music lessons, science enrichment, robotics team, circus class, etc etc etc?  This kind of thing was extremely helpful for us during these elementary years.  I do think it is a good idea to have her finish the year if she is learning and you can't take the change right now.  That really gives you some time and space to consider options.  Especially for an extroverted kid.  

But no, I wouldn't homeschool a child this age just because this is what they think they want if it didn't work for the adults in the house.  I would consider other educational options and/or deeply explore enrichment if I really thought my child didn't have a good educational fit.  Though if she is learning a lot but still hates it, maybe the neuropsych eval would give you good info to help you move forward.  I would tell your child you aren't trying to change her, you are trying to find the best possible school situation for her and learning more about how she learns best would help facilite that.  I get that not every kid will cooperate.  I think finding someone who regularly works with young GT/2E/Sensory quirky kids for evals can be helpful, but that can run $$$$.  

Edited December 9, 2021 by FuzzyCatz