Duggar trial updates Day 1. Breaking this down one day at a time to make it easier to follow. update 2, several posts down. Last update below.

[Faith-manor]

 

The person posting this is in the audio room of the trial. The courtroom is not large and seating is limited so general members of the public have an overflow room where they are seated, and the sound is piped in. They do not see, just hear. This person is taking notes. Even in the audio room, they are not allowed recording devices, so people have to take notes, leave the courthouse on the breaks, and then post.

I too, like the judge, am startled that the parent of a spouse of a Duggar son was in the jury pool, and it failed to be caught by the jury pool processing folks prior to this. 

I am sad that Jill will have to testify and relive all this crap, but I am giving her big PROPS for doing it, and potentially helping to take this perp down.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Faith-manor

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I was in a jury pool a couple years ago over a rape case.  Someone was dismissed because he was the brother in law of the accused party.  They had different last names, so I expect that’s why it wasn’t caught in that case.  I think the jury canvas is just the mailing canvas and nobody is vetted until they come to court. 

[Pawz4me]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I was in a jury pool a couple years ago over a rape case.  Someone was dismissed because he was the brother in law of the accused party.  They had different last names, so I expect that’s why it wasn’t caught in that case.  I think the jury canvas is just the mailing canvas and nobody is vetted until they come to court. 

I think that's true. We had a highly publicized murder trial here a few years ago and one of the paramedics who responded to the scene and attempted to treat the victim was in the jury pool.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

9 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I think that's true. We had a highly publicized murder trial here a few years ago and one of the paramedics who responded to the scene and attempted to treat the victim was in the jury pool.

That too happens here frequently.  I don’t think the jury canvas is even crossed with the witness list; I know a couple paramedics and police officers who got a jury summons and turned out to be a case they were involved in.  
 

Also JimBob Duggar is a schmuck. I just wanted to say that.

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I was in a jury pool a couple years ago over a rape case.  Someone was dismissed because he was the brother in law of the accused party.  They had different last names, so I expect that’s why it wasn’t caught in that case.  I think the jury canvas is just the mailing canvas and nobody is vetted until they come to court. 

That must be. Here on local cases, they try to catch them before they enter the courtroom. There is a questionnaire, specific to the case, the you fill out and hand back. Some folks get dismissed before the even get to the courtroom. I guess the feds and other courts do not have a last minute thinning of the pool like that.

[Faith-manor]

10 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

 

Also JimBob Duggar is a schmuck. I just wanted to say that.

You are much more diplomatic and no evil far than I would be with that label. Good on you. My filter has been pummeled!

[cbollin]

12 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

That must be. Here on local cases, they try to catch them before they enter the courtroom. There is a questionnaire, specific to the case, the you fill out and hand back. Some folks get dismissed before the even get to the courtroom. I guess the feds and other courts do not have a last minute thinning of the pool like that.

Juries where I was in the pool, that kind of thinning questionnaire was not done until we were in courtroom to be questioned (voir dire)  They didn't know which case you'd be on until it happened.  Judge asked us all at once to raise hands if we knew anyone on the list that was called.  We weren't on a specific case for most of the time but in a big waiting room.  when case was needing jury, that's when thinning happened.

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by cbollin

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, cbollin said:

Juries were I was in the pool, that kind of thinning questionnaire was not done until we were in courtroom to be questioned (voir dire)  They didn't know which case you'd be on until it happened.  Judge asked us all at once to raise hands if we knew anyone on the list that was called.  We weren't on a specific case for most of the time but in a big waiting room.  when case was needing jury, that's when thinning happened.

 

Yes I am getting the impression that this can be courthouse specific. Ours is an old courthouse with out any really big rooms other than actual trial rooms. So I have to wonder if just for the sake of saving space, they do that pre-thinning of the pool. My mom once served on a federal jury here in Michigan, and she said the courthouse had a lot of rooms, very very large and comfy, and huge bathrooms some of which were designated for jurors only. We don't have that in our 150+ year old courthouse. Tight quarters probably makes it harder to keep everything sequestered, and proper. Sending people home definitely helps.

[Faith-manor]

I am posting a second update. This one is a release of notes related to yesterday's evidentiary hearing. I am posting a LINK not embedding it. Too triggering you are forewarned.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/r5u98e/summarythoughtsbad_analysis_of_the_supplemental/?sort=new

 

[Faith-manor]

A non horrific synopsis of the above. Bad bad things were done to Jane Does 1-3, and extra bad bad things to Jane Doe 4. These things took place over a period of years not months, and Jbob and Chelle knew and did nothing to protect their daughters other than build the new house, change bedroom access, and locks on the girls' doors. Josh copted to it in front of Bobye and Jim Holt and JB. None of the admitting to it was done in a "confessional" way and Jim Holt is not a licensed counselor or ordained clergy so the prosecution believes clergy privilege for him cannot be invoked especially as it was not a part of a treatment plan discussion, and Bobeye admitted it was part of a larger discussion of Josh and JB wanting to reinstate the courtship/betrothal with their daughter. No props personally given to Holts, but as the rock bottom level of parenting in any measly way, they opted NOT to allow a courtship to begin anew. Defense thinks pretty much everyone who has ever taught a Sunday school class or said a prayer at church is "clergy" for the purpose of their argument. 

So all of the court document notes linked above in the 2nd post are related to what the judge is expected to rule on by the end of the day or at least before opening arguments.

[Annie G]

I’m baffled that Jim Holt fell asleep and his wife continued talking to JB and Michelle.  That just seems so….weird. Also interesting that she remembers that her husband fell asleep  but JB cannot remember any details about what Joshie did to his sisters.

Faith-manor, thanks for continuing to provide updates. Additionally, your experiences have been eye opening. 

 

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Also JimBob Duggar is a schmuck. I just wanted to say that.

I can think of far stronger terms that would fit him . . . . 

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

That must be. Here on local cases, they try to catch them before they enter the courtroom. There is a questionnaire, specific to the case, the you fill out and hand back. Some folks get dismissed before the even get to the courtroom. I guess the feds and other courts do not have a last minute thinning of the pool like that.

 

2 hours ago, cbollin said:

Juries where I was in the pool, that kind of thinning questionnaire was not done until we were in courtroom to be questioned (voir dire)  They didn't know which case you'd be on until it happened.  Judge asked us all at once to raise hands if we knew anyone on the list that was called.  We weren't on a specific case for most of the time but in a big waiting room.  when case was needing jury, that's when thinning happened.

 

Questions are submitted by the lawyers in the case.

i've done both types in the same courthouse - size of jury pool differed substantially.  One was maybe? 18? (maybe 15)  the other was 40+? 60+?.  (it received major local news coverage) The cases were quite different too. - one was a car accident; the other was fraud/conspiracy/first degree theft of a mentally ill person. (it ultimately forced the business to close even though I don't think the owner was involved.)

the larger jury pool we filled out the questionnaire before we ever entered the courtroom.  There was nothing to indicate what the case was except it had to do with mental disability and abuse.  Or if we'd ever had a bad experience dealing with this type of business.)  Later, we had more specific questions inside the courtroom about having any dealing with the defendants or their employer.  A smaller group was dismissed before a jury was seated than i would have expected.  (the rest of us were then sent home.  And since it all took a day and a half just to seat a jury, we didn't have to come back.)

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I’m baffled that Jim Holt fell asleep and his wife continued talking to JB and Michelle.  That just seems so….weird. Also interesting that she remembers that her husband fell asleep  but JB cannot remember any details about what Joshie did to his sisters.

Faith-manor, thanks for continuing to provide updates. Additionally, your experiences have been eye opening. 

 

Josh is the apple of his eye.  Josh was his golden child. . . . . yeah, I can believe he'd sacrifice his daughters to protect his creepy son.  JB gives me the creeps - since before I learned any of this.

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

. Defense thinks pretty much everyone who has ever taught a Sunday school class or said a prayer at church is "clergy" for the purpose of their argument. 

 

No - they don't "think" that, they're just using it as a ploy.  They know they don't' meet the legal definition of clergy.

[Faith-manor]

12 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I’m baffled that Jim Holt fell asleep and his wife continued talking to JB and Michelle.  That just seems so….weird. Also interesting that she remembers that her husband fell asleep  but JB cannot remember any details about what Joshie did to his sisters.

Faith-manor, thanks for continuing to provide updates. Additionally, your experiences have been eye opening. 

 

Yes, and that JB after saying he doesn't remember what his son said, then said he remembered that whatever it is he can't remember was definitely said a confessional, protected way. 😯🙄

I mean, if I were to just describe that statement alone in non legal terms, I would say "dry that out and you can fertilize the lawn with it."

And of course what Gardenmom says about narcissism and the golden child is 100% true here. 

And as to the fell asleep? This I can believe. IBLP really conditions men to believe that no matter what a woman brings up and or thinks about or expresses is exactly nothing to be concerned about, by all means snooze if tired. Her staying away and being really upset and Josh being awake wondering how to escape is totally within the norm of IBLP. It is so hard for regular people to imagine. I mean my husband would be awake for nights on end if something like this happened in our family, if he had to have a discussion about it with people in church, with friends,... Well, and he would be fighting the urge to not beat the crap out of perp. The adrenalin alone would not allow him to nap in the midst of that conversation. That is a normal, mentally healthy, father response by someone who has not been conditioned to believe his wife and children are irrelevant. I wish I could report that even with IBLP this is an aberration. I cannot.

[Faith-manor]

It should also be noted that on the sub reddit forum, the person posting updates who is attending the trial, posted 22 minutes ago that the jury pool had not yet been given lunch. That would be 4:06 pm CST if Arkansas is CST. I am not sure if Fayetteville is CST or Rocky. Anyone know? Even if it was 3:06, these folks reported to the courthouse by 9am, 8 am if memory serves. The reporter finally left to get lunch.

And they wonder why absolutely everyone dreads a jury summons! Well no joke. There has been only one, 20 minute potty/water break. Uhm. Hungry, dehydrated, low blood sugar, needing to pee. Have we not learned anything about human behavior, emotions, concentration and focus lo these many years? Judge Brooks, this is not acceptable!

I hope it turns out that some court officer took a Subway order for everyone, dismissed them individually for the bathroom, and they just kind of "working lunched" their way through the day. It isn't right, but better.

[Annie G]

16 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Josh is the apple of his eye.  Josh was his golden child. . . . . yeah, I can believe he'd sacrifice his daughters to protect his creepy son.  JB gives me the creeps - since before I learned any of this.

 

We have four kids and different relationships with each, but I cannot fathom stepping on children to protect their sibling who abused them. It’s just so sick.   Like you, I always felt that something was off with JB, but had no idea he was this awful. And to know that his behavior is accepted among his fellow Gothardites is just nauseating. 

[gardenmom5]

43 minutes ago, Annie G said:

We have four kids and different relationships with each, but I cannot fathom stepping on children to protect their sibling who abused them. It’s just so sick.   Like you, I always felt that something was off with JB, but had no idea he was this awful. And to know that his behavior is accepted among his fellow Gothardites is just nauseating. 

Yes it is sick - narcissists will step on children to protect the golden child.

(there's a reason I was the scapegoat.  If she admitted the truth, she'd have had to admit her golden child wasn't very golden . . . . and that SHE was a fool for lavishing gifts on someone who felt entitled to them.  In her mind, I was the guilty one.)

Edited November 30, 2021 by gardenmom5

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

Bobye Holt has a public Facebook post, and in the comments she’s said several times that she is testifying for all the voices that can’t be heard.  And she insinuated that she did report, but could not make the authorities do anything.

There’s clearly no love for Josh or the Duggars anymore from her side.  And Amy Duggar posted on IG that she hopes the judge hands down the ultimate sentence.

After reading JB’s remarks though and how he acted toward the judge, I think they’re 1000% convinced Josh will be found not guilty.

[Faith-manor]

One last update of the day.

The jury had been seated, 12 jurors and 4 alternate jurors. A small group of potential jurors did indicate that they were victims of CSA. Judge Brooks took them to his chambers for a private talk, no lawyers, no idea if a clerk or bailiff was present. So far, no journalist has reported one more word on that or whom may or may not have been dismissed. I am glad and hope it remains that way. Let's be protecting as many people as possible. 

28 potential jurors indicated that they had watched the show. When asked for anyone to stand who felt they could not be impartial due to having watched the show or hearing about them on social media, no one stood. The judge then gave the pool a frank, but apparently very careful, concerned run down of what they can expect to see and hear in a case like this. He did not pull any punches, and yet, according to a court reporter, he seemed to care about the fact that these poor folks have to witness this freaking awful crud. He then asked if anyone felt that they would not be able to be a juror. No one stood. I am VERY impressed with that pool of adults! I wish we did more for jurors. These people should be given tax payer funded counseling afterward and a trip to Hawaii all expenses paid.

There is no word yet on the evidentiary ruling concerning the testimony of Bobbye Holt. Since the judge said the trial begins tomorrow, my guess is that he can give his ruling to counsel in the morning before the jury is seated by the baliff. But, I am not a lawyer and do not play one on T.V. I am allowing myself to speculate on that.

[Ottakee]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

No - they don't "think" that, they're just using it as a ploy.  They know they don't' meet the legal definition of clergy.

My neighbor who is a pastor mentioned that he was really upset that they are trying to get clergy privilege for a woman....when in reality they would have never considered a woman as clergy....until now, and likely only if it helps their case.  

My neighbor doesnt like the way they change things to fit their needs at the time.

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

My neighbor who is a pastor mentioned that he was really upset that they are trying to get clergy privilege for a woman....when in reality they would have never considered a woman as clergy....until now, and likely only if it helps their case.  

My neighbor doesnt like the way they change things to fit their needs at the time.

This is very true. I don't think it will work. iBLP and the church itself have "women can't be in leadership" statements on their websites. She isn't clergy, and Judge Brooks seems to be logical and rational, down to earth. The question is how he interprets rule 414 which does allow for allegations of past acts to be admissible if the defense makes character statements. So essentially where is the threshold at which the prosecution can rebut the defense on the basis of them trying to paint Josh as a good person. So depending on where he falls with this, depends on how useful Bobbye and Jill will be.

Dwain Swanson was listed as a witness for the prosecution back in mid-November. No one knows why. He is Lauren's dad, and Josiah's father in law. Josh tried to throw Josiah under the bus by pointing fingers at him as well as one of the other brothers. Possible alibi for Josiah I'd the defense tries to drive the bus over him? Not sure. 

Arkansas clergy privilege law, which is pretty broadly worded, doesn't apply because this is a federal case. The federal statute seems to be stricter so I do not think that helps the defense. But who knows. Strange nonsensical things happen all the time in our justice system.

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

My neighbor who is a pastor mentioned that he was really upset that they are trying to get clergy privilege for a woman....when in reality they would have never considered a woman as clergy....until now, and likely only if it helps their case.  

My neighbor doesnt like the way they change things to fit their needs at the time.

I hope your neighbor realizes this is who that group is.  It's what benefits them.

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This is very true. I don't think it will work. iBLP and the church itself have "women can't be in leadership" statements on their websites. She isn't clergy, and Judge Brooks seems to be logical and rational, down to earth. The question is how he interprets rule 414 which does allow for allegations of past acts to be admissible if the defense makes character statements. So essentially where is the threshold at which the prosecution can rebut the defense on the basis of them trying to paint Josh as a good person. So depending on where he falls with this, depends on how useful Bobbye and Jill will be.

Dwain Swanson was listed as a witness for the prosecution back in mid-November. No one knows why. He is Lauren's dad, and Josiah's father in law. Josh tried to throw Josiah under the bus by pointing fingers at him as well as one of the other brothers. Possible alibi for Josiah I'd the defense tries to drive the bus over him? Not sure. 

Arkansas clergy privilege law, which is pretty broadly worded, doesn't apply because this is a federal case. The federal statute seems to be stricter so I do not think that helps the defense. But who knows. Strange nonsensical things happen all the time in our justice system.

My understanding is the feds have a very high conviction rate.   Part of me is glad he didn't take the plea bargain.  He will hopefully being going away for a long time.

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I hope your neighbor realizes this is who that group is.  It's what benefits them.

My understanding is the feds have a very high conviction rate.   Part of me is glad he didn't take the plea bargain.  He will hopefully being going away for a long time.

Yes. That is my understanding as well. Federal D.A.'s appear to be the rockstars of the lawyer world, and they take a long time to build their cases so that they have a high conviction rate. It was two years from the raid on the car dealership until the arrest. So I would imagine they have a very damning case.

[Resilient]

I'm kind of relieved that the relationship between accused and potential juror was not discovered early.  It means that we are not tracked and "coded" to the Nth degree.  They caught it in the selection process.  Good enough.

 

[Faith-manor]

9 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I hope your neighbor realizes this is who that group is.  It's what benefits them.

My understanding is the feds have a very high conviction rate.   Part of me is glad he didn't take the plea bargain.  He will hopefully being going away for a long time.

My hope is that the case is so slam dunk that Judge Brooks gets really p.o.ed with Josh and gives him the maximum, and the maximum fines as well. $500,000.00 of JBobs TLC money would be an assist with the cost of trying him when he was too stupid to take the plea deal. I think, if memory serves, the absolute max on each count is 20 years. So if Brooks stacked them and required them to be served consecutively and not concurrently, he would be away for 34 years because federal crimes require serving 85% of the sentence before being eligible for parole.

And none of that stops Arkansas from going after him because the crimes were federal, but also committed in the state. So if the local D.A. is not satisfied with the sentence given or if Josh got off on a technicality, the state can go after him. Usually the state doesn't bother if the perp is convicted on the federal charges and gets a hefty sentence, but they have been known to do it if the federal case bombs out.

The other thing is that Jill should get her sisters together and go after JB and Josh in civil court. Like the O.J. case where he got off on the criminal charges, he lost big in the civil case because civil suits only require a preponderance of the evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt. Josh's admissions in public along with JB and Michelle's Megan Kelly interview, and calling Bobbye Holt to the stand would be enough to bankrupt JB's empire. Josh is the perp, but he was a minor and the parents truly did nothing to protect their girls from him and punished them with an abusive camp for being victims. He put them on t.v. and destroyed their privacy while still minors in order to make money on reality t.v., something they could not consent to as minors, and then kept the money they earned forcing Jill to have to sue him for it. 

[Farrar]

In terms of vetting the jury pool, it's not just jurisdiction specific, it seems to be judge and trial specific. I've been called several times (never seated) and every single time they've used a totally different system to figure out who they're going to dismiss. It's wild. You'd think this would be relatively standardized in the same courthouse, but nope.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

My hope is that the case is so slam dunk that Judge Brooks gets really p.o.ed with Josh and gives him the maximum, and the maximum fines as well. $500,000.00 of JBobs TLC money would be an assist with the cost of trying him

of the sentence before being eligible for parole.

And none of that stops Arkansas from going after him  

The other thing is that Jill should get her sisters together and go after JB and Josh in civil court.  Josh's admissions in public along with JB and Michelle's Megan Kelly interview, and calling Bobbye Holt to the stand would be enough to bankrupt JB's empire. Josh is the perp, but he was a minor and the parents truly did nothing to protect their girls from him and punished them with an abusive camp for being victims. He put them on t.v. and destroyed their privacy while still minors in order to make money on reality t.v., something they could not consent to as minors, and then kept the money they earned forcing Jill to have to sue him for it. 

I would love to see the JB lose his empire.  It might shut him up.  I'm glad to see some of the kids breaking away as they realize what their parents are.

It would be quite the karma for the girls to get control of the money.

[Ottakee]

23 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I hope your neighbor realizes this is who that group is.  It's what benefits them.

My understanding is the feds have a very high conviction rate.   Part of me is glad he didn't take the plea bargain.  He will hopefully being going away for a long time.

Oh, he knows.   He is just mad that this group who all along says women can't be pastors suddenly tries to claim that this woman is clergy just to try to cover their butts.  It makes Christians look bad.

[gardenmom5]

6 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Oh, he knows.   He is just mad that this group who all along says women can't be pastors suddenly tries to claim that this woman is clergy just to try to cover their butts.  It makes Christians look bad.

Makes me mad - for many reasons.  just two - their utter contempt for women, unless it's to their advantage to claim they "respect them" - and they make Christian's look bad.

They are ravening wolves in sheep's clothing.

[Ottakee]

18 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Makes me mad - for many reasons.  just two - their utter contempt for women, unless it's to their advantage to claim they "respect them" - and they make Christian's look bad.

They are ravening wolves in sheep's clothing.

Exactly.  That way my neighbors point.