Duggar Trial starts today

[Katy]

Apparently Jim Bob committed perjury in a pre-trial hearing by claiming he didn’t remember the abuse multiple times…. If Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to a Federal investigator, please tell me they’ll put JB in jail for lying while under oath. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Katy

[WildflowerMom]

He claimed he didn't remember the abuse of his daughters?  
 

Anyone have a guess at how long this trial should last?   I can't keep up with it, too much emotion for me right now.   I'd just like to check in at the end and see that he's headed to the slammer. 

[Annie G]

I wonder how the four daughters who were abused by Josh feel about dear daddy bending over backwards to protect Josh.   What a complete jerk. And if Michelle condones his testimony…just ugh!

[Katy]

One of the commentators said how many days the prosecutors thought it would take.  I think it was Emily the YouTube lawyer. And I think their side alone was 8 days. And the judge was surprised by that… actually it might have been the lawyer from Tampa who took a paralegal to watch for fun. It was linked on Pickles Facebook page.  If anyone goes to find it, beware there’s a lot of drinking and swearing (as there are in all legal/law enforcement circles IME), just a warning because I know a lot of conservative Christians used to comment on Duggar News. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

31 minutes ago, Katy said:

Apparently Jim Bob committed perjury in a pre-trial hearing by claiming he didn’t remember the abuse multiple times…. If Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to a Federal investigator, please tell me they’ll put JB in jail for lying while under oath. 

Are you serious? I've been in class and couldn't check. Headed to duggarssnark . . .

[Katy]

He didn’t recall what Josh said, no. 

Here’s a local news source covering the case, and a timeline of events. 

https://www.nwahomepage.com/northwest-arkansas-news/josh-duggar-trial-a-timeline-of-events/?fbclid=IwAR1IwZFc4s-4i4zgx8siqfOO6tzXFAURb55b3ONEYhHJD6wplSw8GMWFxzI

[Faith-manor]

I was reading a lawyer's take on this, and he thought 1-2 days for jury selection,.3-4 days of testimony and then whatever length of time it takes for the jury to deliberate. The feds have a very high conviction rate for this and all but a couple of the laundry list of defense motions to suppress this, that, or the other thing were dismissed. He also says because they are not brining actual molestation/rape charges against him, and he doesn't have a long rap sheet, that the sentence if guilty is likely to be 5-15 years, 10 being average. The fines can be up to $500,000 in addition.

But it is all speculation. What isn't speculation is that Bobye Holt was subpoenaed to testify today. She was the one who Josh was taken to in order to confess for church discipline. She was not the pastor and has no clergy standing so she can get off on NOT reporting except the defense argued that she was clergy and it should fall under clergy/counselor privilege. That is problematic for her. The prosecution and defense have until noon tomorrow to write their briefs on why it should or should not be allowed before the jury. The thing is, IBLP and all their subsidiary churches have published materials about women not being allowed to serve as clergy or in any position of leadership. She had no ordination and apart from teaching a small group Sunday School, no leadership. I don't think they can make a case for clergy privilege. But if the defense manages to make a clergy privilege stick, she could then still face charges in Arkansas because they will have her testimony from today on record, and the victims were minors 12 and under. There is pretty much no clergy privilege that circumvents mandatory reporting for something like this with child victims. Protestants do not have a "sacredness of the confessional" thing, and protestant seminaries and bible schools are not out there actively preaching that doctrine.

So Jim bob or Bobye could go down with this ship.

And then there is the fact that Jbob and Shells and the by then adult victims plus Josh all admitted to it in public, and Megan Kelly's interview is A matter of public record. Lying about it is about as Narcissistic as someone can get. His attorney better hope a test for Alzheimers comes back positive. I just hope all the people in his voting district are listening and paying attention. Dingdong and company were out acting like nothing was wrong with a campaign float in the weekend Christmas parade! 😠

[WildflowerMom]

I'm not going to check links, I'm just going to trust yall's judgement here.    I hope JB and his POS son go down.  

[busymama7]

Sorry I fell behind on the other thread.  Was Jim Bob successfully given the supena? (Ugh how do you spell that?!?) I assume since they've been out in public but I didn't hear the end of it. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

3 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Sorry I fell behind on the other thread.  Was Jim Bob successfully given the supena? (Ugh how do you spell that?!?) I assume since they've been out in public but I didn't hear the end of it. 

Yes, he testified in the evidentiary hearing. Jury selection will hopefully still happen tomorrow.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Sorry I fell behind on the other thread.  Was Jim Bob successfully given the supena? (Ugh how do you spell that?!?) I assume since they've been out in public but I didn't hear the end of it. 

Yes. I don't know how they got to him, but it may have been at that parade for all we know. He is running for office so at some point with due diligence they were bound to stalk him successfully. I would imagine that some legal analyst somewhere will request the paperwork on that in the coming days and answer that fateful question. Plus, one his adult kids may have caved and given it to him. I did read somewhere on the sub reddit forum that a PDF download of the process server report was that it took 15 hours of work to serve him. Sigh. Nice use of tax payer dollars. Can we fine him for it? I, a tax paying citizen, would like my money back on that one.

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Yes, he testified in the evidentiary hearing. Jury selection will hopefully still happen tomorrow.

I don't know about federal law, but in Michigan they can begin jury selection without that ruling because no evidence or testimony is heard for selection. The judge just has to make a decision prior to opening arguments.

[gardenmom5]

47 minutes ago, Katy said:

Apparently Jim Bob committed perjury in a pre-trial hearing by claiming he didn’t remember the abuse multiple times…. If Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to a Federal investigator, please tell me they’ll put JB in jail for lying while under oath. 

His "I can't recall" isn't quite the same as MS's lies (she claimed she didn't do something a paper trail demonstrated she did.). Was it that the girls were abused, or what Josh said?

Is he lying about remembering the girls were abused? 99.99% probability - but given his disrespect for females, he might be telling the truth.

 

28 minutes ago, Annie G said:

I wonder how the four daughters who were abused by Josh feel about dear daddy bending over backwards to protect Josh.   What a complete jerk. And if Michelle condones his testimony…just ugh!

It seems like these girls are breaking away from him and M anyway.  I'm not sure JB can surprise them.  His behavior since it happened was pretty dismissive of their well-being, in favor of Josh, from the beginning.

Calling him a jerk - is an understatement.

M will likely support him.  She's a good little quiverful wife.

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

IThe feds have a very high conviction rate for this and all but a couple of the laundry list of defense motions to suppress this, that, or the other thing were dismissed. He also says because they are not brining actual molestation/rape charges against him, and he doesn't have a long rap sheet, that the sentence if guilty is likely to be 5-15 years, 10 being average. The fines can be up to $500,000 in addition.But it is all speculation.

What isn't speculation is that Bobye Holt was subpoenaed to testify today. She was the one who Josh was taken to in order to confess for church discipline. She was not the pastor and has no clergy standing so she can get off on NOT reporting except the defense argued that she was clergy and it should fall under clergy/counselor privilege. That is problematic for her. The prosecution and defense have until noon tomorrow to write their briefs on why it should or should not be allowed before the jury. The thing is, IBLP and all their subsidiary churches have published materials about women not being allowed to serve as clergy or in any position of leadership. She had no ordination and apart from teaching a small group Sunday School, no leadership. I don't think they can make a case for clergy privilege. But if the defense manages to make a clergy privilege stick, she could then still face charges in Arkansas because they will have her testimony from today on record, and the victims were minors 12 and under. There is pretty much no clergy privilege that circumvents mandatory reporting for something like this with child victims. Protestants do not have a "sacredness of the confessional" thing, and protestant seminaries and bible schools are not out there actively preaching that doctrine.

So Jim bob or Bobye could go down with this ship.   I'd be OK with both . . . . 

And then there is the fact that Jbob and Shells and the by then adult victims plus Josh all admitted to it in public, and Megan Kelly's interview is A matter of public record. Lying about it is about as Narcissistic as someone can get. His attorney better hope a test for Alzheimers comes back positive. I just hope all the people in his voting district are listening and paying attention. Dingdong and company were out acting like nothing was wrong with a campaign float in the weekend Christmas parade! 😠

These people really surround themselves with scum.

I don't think JB cares if he's elected or not (I'm sure he'd enjoy the narcissistic supply if he won, but the money is a bigger thing) - he gets to keep any "leftover" campaign funds.   They lost the income from the show, and they grew accustomed to the lifestyle it gave them.

[Faith-manor]

Yes, Anna will not leave nor will Michelle. They have been conditioned to be good IBLP wives. It should also be noted that if convicted, Anna will probably have to go under church discipline for not being "joyfully available" enough. IBLP teaches that men do not do such things unless women drive them to it. I don't have a puke emoji or I would place it right here.

I suppose if JB intends on living off campaign funds, he is going to be running around running for any office he can find and appealing to IBLP'ers to pony up. Gothard is still kicking and worth millions, maybe that pedo creep will continue bankrolling JB.

Dwain Swanson is on the witness list for the prosecution. He is Josiah's father in law. No idea why.

Also, just a reminder, Gislaine Maxwell's trial is also this week. That one though is going to take a lot longer because there are so many more charges.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Faith-manor

[gardenmom5]

42 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Yes, Anna will not leave nor will Michelle. They have been conditioned to be good IBLP wives. It should also be noted that if convicted, Anna will probably have to go under church discipline for not being "joyfully available" enough.  BLP teaches that men do not do such things unless women drive them to it. I don't have a puke emoji or I would place it right here.

I suppose if JB intends on living off campaign funds, he is going to be running around running for any office he can find and appealing to IBLP'ers to pony up. Gothard is still kicking and worth millions, maybe that pedo creep will continue bankrolling JB.

Dwain Swanson is on the witness list for the prosecution. He is Jordan's father in law. No idea why.

Also, just a reminder, Gislaine Maxwell's trial is also this week. That one though is going to take a lot longer because there are so many more charges.

🤮  (there's one in the site's emojis.  but this calls for something bigger.)

 

[Faith-manor]

Here is a link to a screen shot of an exchange between JB and the judge. JB was apparently narcissistic enough to believe he would go into court and run the show. The judge had to set him straight. In the Webster dictionary for the word "Pompous" it has a picture of JimBob. Just wow.https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/r57oku/im_so_here_for_this_judge_i_love_his_snark/

 

What kills me is he lied to protect his pedophile evil son. In that moment, he threw his daughters right under the bus. 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Annie G said:

I wonder how the four daughters who were abused by Josh feel about dear daddy bending over backwards to protect Josh.   What a complete jerk. And if Michelle condones his testimony…just ugh!

They literally designed their house with “safety guards” to make it hard for the boys to visit the girls at night. Like, you had to walk through the parents bedroom to get there. 

[Faith-manor]

If you hop over to the sub reddit rugged shark they also have the video clip of him discussing this in the Megan Kelly Interview. I could link it, but honestly for some folks, it could be really upsetting so I aim going to let others find it if they want to watch it. That was 2015 if memory serves. So if he can't remember an interview he gave on Prime Time with Morgan Kelly where they talked about it for 90 minutes then I would imagine the prosecution is smelling blood! Then again, maybe they don't care that much about nailing him on federal perjury charges. Hard to say.

[Katy]

People's coverage is the best I've seen so far:

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/

ETA:  The friend testified it started at age 12, not the two incidents at age 14 & 15.  So it literally went on for years.  She also went into details that have been gossiped about before regarding Jill & Joy, but never previously confirmed.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Katy

[Annie G]

45 minutes ago, Quill said:

They literally designed their house with “safety guards” to make it hard for the boys to visit the girls at night. Like, you had to walk through the parents bedroom to get there. 

And yet some instances happened outside the bedroom- one on his lap, and one in the laundry room. They did not protect anyone, and are clearly showing that Josh is more valuable to them than their daughters. Or granddaughters.  

It makes me sick to know that Anna is expected to be ‘joyfully available’ to him.  And that she is likely teaching her daughters to do the same. 
 

 

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

People's coverage is the best I've seen so far:

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/

It is. I would summarize it but it is very triggering. So I think people should read with caution. I am not a sex abuse survivor, but Bobye's testimony still got might heart rate up and a wave of stomach nausea that thankfully passed quickly. Suffice it to say, the CSA went on for a longer period of time than JB and Meech ever copted to, and when confronted by Bobye about new revelations of what Josh had been up to responded that they did not want to hear it. But I refuse to give more description of the testimony than this

So I am wondering if someone should track down lowlife Doug Phillips and tell him to take his "Mother of the Year" award back! 😠

I feel really sad already for every person who has to serve on the jury. 

[gardenmom5]

so Josh is the golden child - so of course the narcissistic parents don't want to hear how badly their judgment is off.   Plausible deniability.  They are beyond disgusting.

They still have little kids at home.

[Laurie]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

They literally designed their house with “safety guards” to make it hard for the boys to visit the girls at night. Like, you had to walk through the parents bedroom to get there. 

    I've watched a house tour video on you tube, and it doesn't look like this is possible.  There's a small prayer room between the parents' room and the girls' bedroom so it doesn't seem like the rooms are connected.  The boys' room is, however, is on the other side of a catwalk from the parents' and girls' bedrooms.   

It's awful to watch the video now knowing what he did to his sisters.  

 

 

[Tanaqui]

Isn't committing perjury one of The Big Ones that even us atheists have heard of? Thou shalt not bear false witness?

I know that the man has no moral compass to speak of, but does he not even have any standards?

[HomeAgain]

6 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Isn't committing perjury one of The Big Ones that even us atheists have heard of? Thou shalt not bear false witness?

I know that the man has no moral compass to speak of, but does he not even have any standards?

When you can sin and be immediately "forgiven", it doesn't do much to curb sin.  Especially if you don't believe good works are a part of living a Christ-centered life, saying that the only part that matters is your faith in God.

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Isn't committing perjury one of The Big Ones that even us atheists have heard of? Thou shalt not bear false witness?

I know that the man has no moral compass to speak of, but does he not even have any standards?

Well no. A moral compass is NOT what IBLP is about. And lying for the cause is 100% a.okay. All the "lost and going straight to hell" folks are supposed to have a mortal compass imposed on them, the IBLP moral compass. But the cult members themselves, not so much...they are extra special, and well, their moral issues can be overlooked and explained away.

I was subjected to the IBLP Advanced Institute of Basic Youth Conflicts back in the 80's, lead by none other than Bill Gothard the deviant scam bag himself. Thousands of men in the audience and the "sell" is that women caused all the sin in the world, and you humans with dangling participles for reproductive organs are god's chosen, perfect little snowflakes who would have perfect lives perfect families, and the shine of god's good will on your live, health, wealth, and prosperity if you just "get your women under control". And then it goes on from there. Basically, Jbob and Josh can blame ALL OF IT on Michelle, Anna, and the sisters. I am not jesting. It goes like this, " Did Michelle or one of the sisters change a diaper in front of Josh when he was growing up?" Then he is a monster because they were immoral harlots who did not protect his soul by keeping the baby modest. Did one of his sisters fail to lock the bathroom door and he walked in? Then his sister is a whore who tempted her brother causing him to fall into sin. Did Anna ever allow one of the children to be seen not fully dressed? Was he chaperoning his sister and an immodest woman stepped into view and sister didn't yell "Nike" as a warning to him to look down soon enough? Then the immoral woman and the lazy sisternare to blame for his behavior. The shes in his life caused him to fall into sin by being sexually tempted by a child. And this goes on and on. Gothard is a perv who is obsessed with young girls and sex and created a religion that is nothing more than a sex cult in which men get a free pass to be perverts.

And Jbob is absolutely allowed to lie to the secular authorities they despise in order to protect the "brand" and IBLP. The lies are again all Michelle, and Anna, and the victim's faults. I would not be shocked if 12 year old McKynzie has not already been sent to IBLP camp, Journey of the Heart (puke, puke, puke, puke, puke) where there are special counseling rooms for basically torturing girls into accepting responsibility for their perp's sin. I am not saying that M has been sexually abused. Not at all. I would not speculate on that. But in particular 12 is a magical age in IBLP in which girls become "women" and especially now part of the "you did this to me" scapegoats. So daddy having problems and her being 12 could absolutely mean Jbob has decided she shares in the blame and needs to be "counseled". We are talking about a place where Gothard has his own bedrooms, in the girls' dorm mind you, and gives personal counsel, and one of his favorite mind games is to tell these girls they have to be pretty and in a certain way (the way that floats his boat) in order to attract a good, godly husband, and then blames them for being too pretty which tempts men to sin. They can't win. And the staff engages in sleep deprivation, food withdrawal, and other means of breaking down the "offender" such as hours and hours on knees in prayer position with whacks to the back from a staff member with a stick if they faulter or hours standing on a chair on their tip toes with a tomato or egg under the arch that cannot be broken. Ask me how I know? This was done to me at an IBLP school for being caught with a book of Shakespeare Sonnets. I peed on the altar. IBLP girl camp is where Josh's sisters were sent while he went to boy camp at ALERT where they get to do cool stuff like take CPR and fire safety, search and rescue, while the spiritual curriculum teaches them that "dude, it ain't your fault you are a deviant pervert. Girls man. They be twisted little sluts out to snatch your soul for satan."

I am not exaggerating. I am actually being protective of the hive and anyone here who has been abused by not telling you more of it.

So Jbob gets to lie on the stand after taking an oath and then go blame the women in his life for doing it. No sin for him!

Oh, and if anyone is wondering. The Holts are the people JB sent Josh to for a few months after round two of teen Josh is a deviant. Josh lived there while Holt was running for public office. Holt blamed his election loss on "sin in the camp" which was essentially IBLP makes people so stupid that they do dumb things like let a 16 year old teen pedo sex freak do I.T. work for the campaign and then are shocked when they find him glued to porn online. That was the sin in the camp. Holts were furious with Josh and kicked him out of the house. Now, don't go thinking these people are decent humans. They aren't. They had young children in the house, young daughters, and they took a child molester into their home knowing what he had been up to. So they are a bunch of evil scum too. 

Oh, and they have a big obsession with first born sons. So believe me, if JB could figure out a way to pin the CSAM from the dealership on Josiah or John David or one of the other brothers, he would absolutely do it and not even blink. Eldest sons are extra special snowflakes in IBLP.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Faith-manor

[WildflowerMom]

8 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Isn't committing perjury one of The Big Ones that even us atheists have heard of? Thou shalt not bear false witness?

I know that the man has no moral compass to speak of, but does he not even have any standards?

As a Christian, I think they are pretty appalling people.    The Bible I read is not the same one they’re reading, evidently.  
There must be a separate one for fundies.  Who knew? 

And no, he has no standards.    Him, nor his wife. 

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

As a Christian, I think they are pretty appalling people.    The Bible I read is not the same one they’re reading, evidently.  
There must be a separate one for fundies.  Who knew? 

And no, he has no standards.    Him, nor his wife. 

Well, they don't really follow the Bible. Gothard claims to have special, additional revelation from god which is provided prophetically through the conferences, wisdom booklets, and newsletters to the membership. Many people do not realize that though they claim they are following the Bible, they actually study and follow Gothard only with a sprinkling of Bible here and there like a coating of glitter to make it seem "christian".

But that would be a topic of discussion in a different thread since most modes of Christianity do this to some degree. Nearly every single denomination has a book of discipline/doctrine, and in order for a church to belong, they have to elevate that above the Bible even though it is all interpretation which is subjective and can contain many not in the Bible rules. So the book of discipline becomes more important than the Bible itself. Therefore, it is not logical for one group of Christians to claim another group is NOT Christian because x,y,z is man-made doctrine or practice or not how they interpret the same scripture or.....yet they engage in the same practice, albeit to some degree unknowingly because a lot of members don't read the book of discipline for their denomination nor sit on church boards and in elder positions in which book of discipline comes into play for decision making.

The " No true Scotsman" thing is alive and well. I think probably the only group who might have a leg to stand on would be one, if it existed, in which the ONLY doctrine espoused as true and every other possible thing is left up to individual conscious would be one for whom the Apostles Creed is the "book of discipline/doctrine". I am not aware of such a group who has restricted required beliefs and obedience to only that, and restricts preaching to only those tenants. That creed boils things down to a pretty basic bedrock for the religion. I am not sure in 2021 that such a group exists.

 

[WildflowerMom]

I did not realize Gothard set himself up as a prophet.   Hmmm.    
🤢🤢🤢

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I did not realize Gothard set himself up as a prophet.   Hmmm.    
🤢🤢🤢

Yes, back in the 60's he claimed to have special revelation from god about marriage and family. So he is revered as a prophet. But IBLP'ers maintain they don't do it because they know that would rile up other groups of Christians. This is one reason that IBLP materials are very, very expensive to buy, and no one can have them without first paying for the basic conference and then the advanced conference. Only those that commit get to receive the written materials. When my dad pulled out of IBLP, a nutter from the camp came and demanded dad's collection of wisdom booklets and newsletters. He refused to surrender them. They do go around trying to secure them from being released to the public. But occasionally one escapes. A few years ago a collection was selling for several hundred dollars on Amazon marketplace. A journalist managed to go undercover well enough to write an exposed biography of Gothard. 

[TravelingChris]

12 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

As a Christian, I think they are pretty appalling people.    The Bible I read is not the same one they’re reading, evidently.  
There must be a separate one for fundies.  Who knew? 

And no, he has no standards.    Him, nor his wife. 

Most fundies aren't like this at all.  They may not play cards, or drink or something like that but not what FaithManor is describing.  That seems like a sex cult.

[Faith-manor]

6 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Most fundies aren't like this at all.  They may not play cards, or drink or something like that but not what FaithManor is describing.  That seems like a sex cult.

It is a sex cult. If you follow the life of Gothard and his henchmen, you see a BIG common thread in it. Women and girls groomed to be victims, and the men are deviants. But they use the Bible as a base for it in a way that is difficult to just say "they aren't christians". That is very uncomfortable for more mainstream protestants because it forces a lot of discussion of what is doctrine, who gets to decide, how is the Bible interpreted, who should be interpreting matters of personal conscience vs. collective application, and well a host of not easy topics that no one can agree upon except at this point, except for FLDS (another sex cult) just about everyone agrees that IBLP and its followers are pretty screwed up and not to fond of following anything Jesus says. Whether or not they are christians is not anything I care about. I don't have a dog in that fight anymore. Maybe my big beef is " what is human, and do we have to call Josh and Jbob humans????" I would prefer they were not members of my species!

[Faith-manor]

It should be noted that both Vision Forum/Boerne Christian Assembly, and Christchurch of Doug Wilson/Moscow Idaho fame are also sex cults that predicate their family values on abusing women, grooming females and children to be victims, and defend rape and pedophilia or at least their leadership does. So IBLP is NOT the only sex cult within extreme fundamentalism.

[Katy]

Any sort of fundamentalism is problematic when you look at it. Even from a Biblical perspective.  Jesus wasn’t thrilled with the Pharisees and they had a very similar love of precise, compassionless rules. 

When you look at Galatians 5, this is exactly the sort of thing Paul was railing about. Not doing something because it makes YOU feel guilty is not a sign that your history of sin needs to be applied like a wet blanket to the rest of society. And all of these extra-biblical rules are exactly that, when we should be teaching Christians the far more difficult path of understanding scripture and listening to the Holy Spirit. 

Even when it comes to matters of abortion or birth control, which both existed in the Bible (some of the plants used for those purposes in the time were hunted to extinction) yet were not discussed. Why not, you may ask? I once read a very compelling argument from a Jewish woman that said that in that era women weren’t pregnant until they said they were pregnant- when they announced they felt movement. She said it was assumed that most women wanted children, and if they didn’t it was a sign something was very wrong and they were in a special circumstance and shouldn’t have them. That wasn’t something men were supposed to interfere with. 

[HomeAgain]

7 hours ago, Katy said:

Even when it comes to matters of abortion or birth control, which both existed in the Bible (some of the plants used for those purposes in the time were hunted to extinction) yet were not discussed. Why not, you may ask? I once read a very compelling argument from a Jewish woman that said that in that era women weren’t pregnant until they said they were pregnant- when they announced they felt movement. She said it was assumed that most women wanted children, and if they didn’t it was a sign something was very wrong and they were in a special circumstance and shouldn’t have them. That wasn’t something men were supposed to interfere with. 

There is a recipe for abortion in the bible: Numbers 5:11.  It's the test for an unfaithful wife.  Mix this up, have her drink it, if she miscarries because of it then she has been unfaithful and should be shunned.

You are correct on the rest - there was no value in an unborn life in the bible.  It was expendable.

[ktgrok]

The judge decided that J's past bad acts can be introduced, via witness testimony. 

 

[ktgrok]