S/O Elderly Care: Has anyone just... not?

[Slache]

There's a thread on the chat board right now and it's kinda killing me because it's very similar to my situation and I'm really just tired of it not being fixed. I am a fixer (Jean told me so).

Anyone who has followed my story for any length of time knows my MIL and I have very serious issues. I have tried multiple times to get her to discuss what happens when she needs help but she will not have it. She says she's moving in with us, I say she's not and needs to make other plans, she says she's just going to show up and I'll be stuck with her. For various reasons we haven't spoken to her in almost a year and we've unfortunately made the decision that she will not be able to see the kids again (the kids were relieved), so there's no way she can live with us.

But something's going to happen. She's going to fall or have a heart attack. She's far too big for any person to physically help her, her house is between 3 and 4 hoarder level, there is no one to deal with her finances and I was wondering what would happen if we just didn't. She says we don't have a choice and my DH is her POA and executor, but he can legally decline both.

Has anyone just let it go? I don't believe anyone else will take the responsibility. She tells everyone she's moving in with us and we're taking care of everything, so there's really no one bothering to. As far as I know most her family is no contact and those that remain are not capable anyway. I know this means no inheritance including family heirlooms.

[Faith-manor]

Yes, my abusive, narcissistic uncle's sons declined POA and executor, and cut off contact. He tried to show up at one of their homes, and they simply did not open the door. Eventually they called community health, explained that they were not responsible for this elder and it was unsafe for said elder to be near them, and police with a social worker were dispatched to pick him up. They decided to have paramedics transport him to the hospital on a psyche hold, and then a nursing home bed was found for him. I do not think the social worker even gave him the option of being transported back to his home. The court appointed a person to oversee his financial affairs which that person promptly mishandled on an epic level. However, no one complained. Uncle earned the position he was in, and the best path forward was to let the legal system deal with him. He died in the nursing home. My dad went once to see his brother the week before he died. I don't think he had seen his sons in years. However, again, he was an abusive person -physically and emotionally - so it had to be this way. It never occurred to him to even attempt not to be verbally abusive so people might be willing to visit. And it wasn't mental illness either. He was a rage monster with vicious mouth from his young adult years forward, and a narcissistic, sneaky weasel as a teen. Very sad situation, but I am thankful my cousins did what was best for them and their children.

My suggestion is that your husband decline the POA and executor thing now ahead of the crisis. Going no contact is good. But if she knows your phone numbers, I would change them now as well so she can't give out those numbers to hospital workers, community social workers, etc. and have them calling you all the time. My cousins had to do that. Believe me, the system will try to wear you down into taking on the responsibility because that is the easiest path for the state. So one good step is for the elder to not know how to reach you by phone, and that is also a signal to the social worker that you are NOT going to take care of this person. I meqn, LEO's can find your number if they want to, but, they do get a clue that this person is not coming to your house when the elder doesn't have a current phone number.

[Kassia]

We've done it both ways.  Nothing with my estranged narcissist mother.  We were no contact and I didn't even know for a while that she died.  I'm the only child and she left everything to charity.  All the photo albums she knew I wanted are gone.  I wanted photos of my dad.  😞  

Situation with my MIL has been a nightmare.  We always swore we wouldn't do anything for her when the time came.  Well, FIL died last year and now MIL needs us all. the time.  It was bad enough at first but then she was diagnosed with colon cancer in the summer and needed surgery and she just found out the cancer spread to her liver and we're waiting to find out what is next.  She has become a HUGE burden and obligation but we don't feel comfortable just abandoning an old woman who is alone no matter how much we resent her and are bitter over how she treated us forever.  Poor DH has basically taken over a second household - her house, car, finances, electronics, etc. and he takes her to all the medical stuff that is necessary.  We do as little as possible but it's still a LOT.  

And she acts like nothing happened in the past.  She just expects this.  She never contacts us unless she needs something.  Every communication fromher starts with "I want.  I need."  On DH's bday she didn't call him until late that night and only because something happened in the house she needed help with.  

And things are only going to get worse now with the liver cancer.  We're trying to take it one day at a time but it feels like there's no end in sight.  That's what makes it so hard.  It's not just temporary.  

 

[mlktwins]

I'm not aware of the issues with your MIL, but I would decline POA and executor responsibilities, even if it means no inheritance or family heirlooms.  It would not be worth it to me.  And...depending on her level of care, she may not have anything left for you/DH to inherit it anyway.

I am caring for my dad, but only because no one else can/would do it.  I now have 24/7 care in there so I am not having to deal with him directly anymore.  He is not very nice, especially as he has gotten older, and yells a lot.  Just not something I'm willing to put up with anymore.  But he is cared for.  He will go in a nursing home when the 24/7 care doesn't work out anymore, but that won't go very well for him I'm afrad.

I'm not sure how all of this works, and this is not directed at you Slache (AT ALL), but I've been curious at what the line is between not taking responsibility for someone (like what Slache is dealing with) and elder abuse.  What would prompt action against someone for elder care abuse?  What happens when people refuse to help?  If this is not appropriate to this thread, please let me know and I'll delete. 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Kassia said:

We've done it both ways.  Nothing with my estranged narcissist mother.  We were no contact and I didn't even know for a while that she died.  I'm the only child and she left everything to charity.  All the photo albums she knew I wanted are gone.  I wanted photos of my dad.  😞  

Situation with my MIL has been a nightmare.  We always swore we wouldn't do anything for her when the time came.  Well, FIL died last year and now MIL needs us all. the time.  It was bad enough at first but then she was diagnosed with colon cancer in the summer and needed surgery and she just found out the cancer spread to her liver and we're waiting to find out what is next.  She has become a HUGE burden and obligation but we don't feel comfortable just abandoning an old woman who is alone no matter how much we resent her and are bitter over how she treated us forever.  Poor DH has basically taken over a second household - her house, car, finances, electronics, etc. and he takes her to all the medical stuff that is necessary.  We do as little as possible but it's still a LOT.  

And she acts like nothing happened in the past.  She just expects this.  She never contacts us unless she needs something.  Every communication fromher starts with "I want.  I need."  On DH's bday she didn't call him until late that night and only because something happened in the house she needed help with.  

And things are only going to get worse now with the liver cancer.  We're trying to take it one day at a time but it feels like there's no end in sight.  That's what makes it so hard.  It's not just temporary.  

 

Gently, I would suggest your husband find a nursing home bed for her and stop doing all of this. It is going to take a toll on his health and potentially his relationship with you. It is one thing to take care of elders who do not go out of their way to make everything worse than it has to be as well as people who were not abusive. It is quite another to be driven into the ground by a historically selfish, narcissistic person who burned every bridge deliberately. Community services exist for a reason.

My mother in law, who is difficult but no where near anything you are dealing with, can no longer afford to pay her once a week housekeeper. She thinks she is going to dump that on dh and I despite all of the other stuff we do including my husband spending tomorrow evening installing a new water heater for her that we paid for! Nope. She will either allow the center for the aging for our county which provides housekeeping services once per week to come to the house or her house is not going to be getting cleaned the way she wants. 

[mlktwins]

5 minutes ago, Kassia said:

She has become a HUGE burden and obligation but we don't feel comfortable just abandoning an old woman who is alone no matter how much we resent her and are bitter over how she treated us forever.  Poor DH has basically taken over a second household - her house, car, finances, electronics, etc. and he takes her to all the medical stuff that is necessary.  We do as little as possible but it's still a LOT.  

 

I'm so sorry about your photo albums 😞 !!!!!

My dad relies on me for everything too and he isn't the nicest person. I'm basically doing what your DH is doing, but just recently placed 24/7 care for him in his apartment. I'm still the one handling all the issues that arise with the caregivers, but at least I'm not with him 24/7, I go to all appointments, all finances, etc. It is the hardest thing I've ever done.  He doesn't care either and I've lost precious time with my boys for the past 3 years, who will be gone in 1.5 years to college.  I will never forgive that.  But...I can't not do it as there is no one else.    

[Spryte]

Here’s what I can see happening: When she falls or has a heart attack or whatever might happen—she will go to the hospital and a social worker will be assigned to her. She will be assessed by PT and OT and they will decide if she needs to go to rehab or can be discharged home. If she can be discharged home or home with help, she will tell the social worker that she is going to live with you, that you will take care of everything. SW will call you to verify. At this point, you say, “No.” say it firmly, over and over. If you give any wiggle room, if you feel any sort of ambivalence, they will view it as a problem to overcome. They will tell you they will send Home Health to help you and train you how to care for her. Don’t go there. Just say no. Over and over. At that point she will go to rehab. You may need to do the same dance with the SW at the rehab facility. Just keep saying no. At that point, they will start her application for Medicaid and try to find her a nursing home bed or possibly send her to a group living situation, whatever they do in your area.

I have lived this twice. The first time I accepted responsibility and—knowing she wasn’t ready to be discharged from rehab—took on her care. I cried, the day I picked her up, knowing I could not manage her level of care. The family support they promised did not materialize. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done, her care. Our whole family suffered for a good eight months, and after that she had gained enough strength to do some self care, but it was still hard for two years or so. The second time, this fall, she went to rehab and I just kept saying, firmly, that unless she was completely independent to the same degree again, we could not manage her care. They tried to convince me to move her into our open-to-the-kitchen living room, using a bedside commode. Feet from our open kitchen. To live there. Forever. I said no, and the SW muttered something guilt-inducing about my “lifestyle choice” but that living room is where we homeschool our kids! Where we cook!  I had to stay firm. I cannot dress her, feed her, help with toileting, etc, 24 hours a day. We don’t have a bathroom on the level where she would be, and I can’t bathe her. I don’t have the time or skills. She’s transitioning to LTC now, and the SW is helping us apply for Medicaid for her.

My advice, if you don’t want to do her care, is to say no. Firmly and often. 

As for responsibility: I do worry that if her Medicaid doesn’t come through, our family will be responsible for the nursing home bills. We will cross that bridge when and if we get there. I hope we don’t get there!

 

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, mlktwins said:

I'm not aware of the issues with your MIL, but I would decline POA and executor responsibilities, even if it means no inheritance or family heirlooms.  It would not be worth it to me.  And...depending on her level of care, she may not have anything left for you/DH to inherit it anyway.

I am caring for my dad, but only because no one else can/would do it.  I now have 24/7 care in there so I am not having to deal with him directly anymore.  He is not very nice, especially as he has gotten older, and yells a lot.  Just not something I'm willing to put up with anymore.  But he is cared for.  He will go in a nursing home when the 24/7 care doesn't work out anymore, but that won't go very well for him I'm afrad.

I'm not sure how all of this works, and this is not directed at you Slache (AT ALL), but I've been curious at what the line is between not taking responsibility for someone (like what Slache is dealing with) and elder abuse.  What would prompt action against someone for elder care abuse?  What happens when people refuse to help?  If this is not appropriate to this thread, please let me know and I'll delete. 

Elder abuse law varies by state. So there isn't any one answer. Locally, if you don't let the elder move in with you - this is often where the legal problems come in because then you have assumed legal charge of and physical responsibility for this person - elder abuse charges have a hard time sticking and are rarely even brought against the adult child. You can't abuse them if you do not care for them. But that is because my state does not have any hard and fast "adult children are required to physically and financially provide for their parents" law.  The key is not accepting the responsibility to begin with. Elder abuse tends to be triggered when the adult child accepts responsibility for care and then can't manage it properly resulting ins something bad happening or actually abuses the elder adult or embezzled their money, denies them medical care etc. 

I did face that though one time. My father refused to be treated for a major health crisis because he did not want to pay his deductible and co-pay. His condition deteriorated - despite the fact that both dh and I, and my brother and his wife offered to pay his out of pocket expenses - into brain hypoxia and paraneoplastic syndrome both of which combined caused him to hallucinate and become suicidal. He attempted to kill my mom. In order to keep him out of jail when he really needed to be in the hospital (Michigan no longer has a not guilty by reason of insanity or mental insufficiency plea so often people in terrible condition are kept in jail, not in hospitals being treated), my brother posted bail and then signed that he and I (never asked me, just put my name down on the form) would be assuming legal and physical responsibility for him, and then my brother promptly did nothing and stuck me with it all!!!! I eventually was at the end of my rope caring for our mother here at my house, and my father at his house. My mental, emotional, and physical health tanked. I was homeschooling a high school senior and trying to go through college application season, keep up with homeschooling the other two high schoolers, etc. and the cops/court in the county very much expected me to care for him and keep him out of trouble because of what my brother put on that form. Interestingly, they never seemed to care that my brother was not involved! 😠 After the third hospitalization, I told the social worker I was done. (And my father was profoundly, verbally abusive to me. I cannot even begin to describe the horror show. I ended up suicidal because of it, and what had been an unbelievably happy, stable marriage nearly ended. I give so much credit to DH for sticking it out with me, and holding us together when I had NOTHING left to give!) The social worker called the prosecutor, and the prosecutor told me if I didn't care for him, he would charge me with elder abuse. I spent $3000 o a criminal attorney with experience in elder care law to put the prosecutor in his place, and when I say put him in his place, I think the DA and state cops felt positively ROASTED when those phone calls and letters came through. That ended it. I did not take care of my dad, and I faced no fall out from then on. My sister came home from France, took care of him for a while, and then he ended up hospitalized for two months, came home on hospice, and died within two days during which I did not provide any care though I did show up at the house to check on mom and sis (mom had been allowed to move back home once he was incapacitated and couldn't hurt her physically), bring them a hot meal, and some other care actions I did on their behalf.

My legal issue was an extreme case. Millie across the street had one son who lives in California. She refused to move there to live with him. She has housekeeping once a week and a driver/ride for medical appointments and once a week grocery pick up. She is not capable of living alone, and won't go to a facility. But her son is not going to face any elder abuse charges. She has the right to die alone in her house.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Faith-manor

[Slache]

34 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

I'm not aware of the issues with your MIL, but I would decline POA and executor responsibilities, even if it means no inheritance or family heirlooms.  It would not be worth it to me.  And...depending on her level of care, she may not have anything left for you/DH to inherit it anyway.

I am caring for my dad, but only because no one else can/would do it.  I now have 24/7 care in there so I am not having to deal with him directly anymore.  He is not very nice, especially as he has gotten older, and yells a lot.  Just not something I'm willing to put up with anymore.  But he is cared for.  He will go in a nursing home when the 24/7 care doesn't work out anymore, but that won't go very well for him I'm afrad.

I'm not sure how all of this works, and this is not directed at you Slache (AT ALL), but I've been curious at what the line is between not taking responsibility for someone (like what Slache is dealing with) and elder abuse.  What would prompt action against someone for elder care abuse?  What happens when people refuse to help?  If this is not appropriate to this thread, please let me know and I'll delete. 

I would argue that the line is that we said no. You are your responsibility, not ours. We're not allowing her to think we're going to take care of her and then abandon her in her time of need.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, mlktwins said:

I'm not sure how all of this works, and this is not directed at you Slache (AT ALL), but I've been curious at what the line is between not taking responsibility for someone (like what Slache is dealing with) and elder abuse.  What would prompt action against someone for elder care abuse?  What happens when people refuse to help?

I would think that elder abuse is typically when you say you will help them (and perhaps even take $$ help from the government to do so or are in charge of the elderly person's money), but not actually take care of the elderly person. Rarely have I heard of a case where the "caretakers" got no monetary benefit and were accused of elderly abuse (usually at the very least they get the elderly's fixed retirement income).  But I don't know what I'm talking about, my grandmother lived in HK when she needed full time care and we opted to tell that government that we no longer wanted to care for her and the governement took over. 

[Katy]

There’s at least one state that requires adult children to care for elderly parents, but most do not.  If you refuse responsibility when they have a medical event, a hospital social worker will find them a nursing home. At least in most places.  I’ve heard some horror stories about California hospitals dropping people off at homeless camps on the street. 

[73349]

We live 12-16 hours from our parents. Happy to talk through things with them/others by phone as desired or Google options for them, but there is no way we can do any physical caregiving. Luckily, nobody seems to expect us to provide major assistance, although that may be partly denial that there will be needs.

I'll be lucky if I can talk my own DH into a smaller, more accessible house in a decade or two.

[MooCow]

 my mom first got sick in California shortly after we moved to Arizona. I was recovering from emergency major surgery and I had a new baby. With a lot of help we moved her to Arizona. Then we moved to the South, and by the time she went to the hospital for the last time she did not have my current phone number. If she needed anything she had to call my husband. I don't want to go into all the details, but it took me years to recover from everything. 

I was poa for everything, with my dh as backup. Luckily I had a good relationship with all of her doctors, we had contacted hospice to help us, and I've told the story before how I got into a huge fight with hospice because she wanted me to take my mom home to my house to die in front of my young son. 

 In the end, I did enough so that I could look in the mirror and not feel guilty, and still be able to live with myself. Honestly I think that's all that can be done if anyone decides to take on elder Care.

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Gently, I would suggest your husband find a nursing home bed for her and stop doing all of this. It is going to take a toll on his health and potentially his relationship with you.

Thank you.  Unfortunately, she's been independent enough that a nursing home isn't an option.  We couldn't even get the hospital to agree to rehab after her colon cancer surgery (they told us she would be in rehab until the actual morning they released her - then they said she was going home!).  Maybe with the liver cancer it will be different, but I suspect we'll need to arrange for in-home care.  Fortunately, she's fine financially.  I'm having reconstruction surgery on my foot in ten days and will be pretty much on bedrest for at least six weeks so there's no way DH can care for both of us.

We try very hard to not let it get in the way of our relationship.  Sometimes it does but we are very aware of it and try to work together.  It's hard on both of us because of how she treated us and our kids in the past.  

 

 

1 hour ago, mlktwins said:

 

My dad relies on me for everything too and he isn't the nicest person. I'm basically doing what your DH is doing, but just recently placed 24/7 care for him in his apartment. I'm still the one handling all the issues that arise with the caregivers, but at least I'm not with him 24/7, I go to all appointments, all finances, etc. It is the hardest thing I've ever done.  He doesn't care either and I've lost precious time with my boys for the past 3 years, who will be gone in 1.5 years to college.  I will never forgive that.  But...I can't not do it as there is no one else.    

That is so hard.  We are fortunate that our kids are grown now so we don't have that issue to deal with.  They do come home regularly for visits of a week or two but it's not the same as your situation.  And it is tough to keep sacrificing for someone who takes it for granted.  I'm sorry.  

 

12 minutes ago, MooCow said:

 

 In the end, I did enough so that I could look in the mirror and not feel guilty, and still be able to live with myself. Honestly I think that's all that can be done if anyone decides to take on elder Care.

that's where we are now.  I don't think I could have done it with my own mother because she was truly evil and dangerous to me but we are doing it with MIL.  She's bad and has really caused a lot of pain to our family but not nearly as bad as my own mother.  

[teachermom2834]

I don’t know but I am in a similar situation from 700 miles away. Hoarder, no money, no friends or other family, very difficult personality. It is my MIL and I just do not know what is going to happen. 

[wathe]

Haven't read all the responses.  Canadian here, but I think that rules and laws in the US are similar on this issue.  I see a lot of this at the hospital.

Yes, people decline to provide personal care and personal housing to their incapable elders all the time.  Said incapable elders end up in a nursing home.  Either paid for by the elder if they have money, or in a state-funded nursing home space if they don't.

You DH can give up executorship and POA if he wants to (and it might make it easier to cut ties), but he doesn't have to.

I think that keeping POA would actually give your DH more control over where she lives and who cares for her, not less.

POA is about decision making only.  It means that the POA make decisions on behalf of a person who is incapable.  Medical POA for medical decisions, and financial POA for financial decisions regarding their money (not your money).  It does not give the incapable person any entitlement to the POA's personal resources.   And it only kicks in when the person becomes incapable of making decisions for themselves (sounds like she is are not there yet).  POA does not mean that the POA assumes personal financial responsibility to support the person, or a requirement to provide personal care or personally house the person.  It would give DH the power decide, when she's incapable, who provides care.  And to the power to place her in a nursing home.

Executor means responsibility for managing the will and estate after death.  It does not mean any responsibility to house or care for the person in life.

This all sounds very cold and calculated when I type it out, but I think it's important.

People get into trouble for elder abuse/neglect when they have been caring for an elder and then stop (abandonment) or do so negligently, especially if they are taking money for it.  Not for declining to provide care in the first place.

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, wathe said:

This all sounds very cold and calculated when I type it out, but I think it's important.

No, it doesn't. I can go on and on about how I wanted more for her and every heartwarming thing I've tried over the years, but it's gotten to the point where hard choices need to be made and they need to be taken seriously.

[wathe]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

No, it doesn't. I can go on and on about how I wanted more for her and every heartwarming thing I've tried over the years, but it's gotten to the point where hard choices need to be made and they need to be taken seriously.

I think you need to find out what POA obligations are in your state.  Speak to a lawyer.  It sound like that in your case, it will be worth the consult fee.

[mlktwins]

4 minutes ago, wathe said:

People get into trouble for elder abuse/neglect when they have been caring for an elder and then stop (abandonment) or do so negligently, especially if they are taking money for it.  Not for declining to provide care in the first place.

So…this is not an issue for me, as I will continue taking care of my dad until I am not able to do so anymore (then my DH will care for him until he is moved to near my sister in another state).   But…what happens if someone has been caring for an elder, but really can no longer do it?  Say they need to go to work full time, or cannot for health reasons, financial reasons, mental health reasons?  So many people have good intentions to take this on, but realize that it is so much more than they ever thought it would be once they are in it. There is no way out once a person starts providing care?  Honestly, no one has a clue what all is involved until they are actually doing it.  

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, wathe said:

I think you need to find out what POA obligations are in your state.  Speak to a lawyer.  It sound like that in your case, it will be worth the consult fee.

He doesn't want to be POA. He wants to completely walk away.

2 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

So…this is not an issue for me, as I will continue taking care of my dad until I am not able to do so anymore (then my DH will care for him until he is moved to near my sister in another state).   But…what happens if someone has been caring for an elder, but really can no longer do it?  Say they need to go to work full time, or cannot for health reasons, financial reasons, mental health reasons?  So many people have good intentions to take this on, but realize that it is so much more than they ever thought it would be once they are in it. There is no way out once a person starts providing care?  Honestly, no one has a clue what all is involved until they are actually doing it.  

I have seen this go badly. It can take months or even years (or an incident) to get them out.

[wathe]

8 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

So…this is not an issue for me, as I will continue taking care of my dad until I am not able to do so anymore (then my DH will care for him until he is moved to near my sister in another state).   But…what happens if someone has been caring for an elder, but really can no longer do it?  Say they need to go to work full time, or cannot for health reasons, financial reasons, mental health reasons?  So many people have good intentions to take this on, but realize that it is so much more than they ever thought it would be once they are in it. There is no way out once a person starts providing care?  Honestly, no one has a clue what all is involved until they are actually doing it.  

Cynical and real life answer: Go to a hospital emergency department, state that the person cannot be safely cared for in the current circumstances and cannot safety be sent home, and leave them there.

Proper answer:  Arrange for the person to be cared for somewhere else - nursing home placement, assisted living etc.  Involve social services as necessary. Having POA facilitates this - you have the power to make the decision and don't have to worry about an incapable person refusing to leave.  If they aren't incapable and don't want to leave, then it makes it messier because you can't just kick someone out of their residence.

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by wathe

[mlktwins]

2 minutes ago, Slache said:

He doesn't want to be POA. He wants to completely walk away.

I have seen this go badly. It can take months or even years (or an incident) to get them out.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this!!!

Is this only an issue if they are living with you - that it takes a long time to get them out?  

[Slache]

Just now, mlktwins said:

I am so sorry you are dealing with this!!!

Is this only an issue if they are living with you - that it takes a long time to get them out?  

As far as I know it can also be bad if they're living alone. No one wants to help until it's an emergency. Usually a fall, in my experience.

[wathe]

6 minutes ago, Slache said:

He doesn't want to be POA. He wants to completely walk away.

I have seen this go badly. It can take months or even years (or an incident) to get them out.

Then that's probably what he should do.  POA is a big responsibility and a lot of work.

 

 

[Ausmumof3]

Someone is my family signed power of attorney over to the government to take care of.  The government takes any assets to cover costs and provides someone who makes the decisions around care etc.  it was a pretty complicated relationship and probably the best thing for everyone.  They didn’t stop seeing or caring for the person in other ways, but no longer had the burden of making major decisions.

[Faith-manor]

The reality is if you take them in and then your life circumstances change and you cannot care for them, you have a very real problem on your hands and that is where elder abuse or neglect charges can come into play. They are legally tenants in your house even if they don't pay rents once they have been there for a period of time (varies by state). You did accept responsibility for them. So ya, it gets fraught.

Some states will also get after you if you take them to an ER and drop them off, abandonment. But, not all states by any stretch. One of the best ways I have seen is to call for an ambulance if they are in having a mentally altered state moment, have come down sick, fall, etc. Let the paramedics take them to the hospital, and then when the social worker calls, reiterate over and over that you cannot care for them that the situation has worsened, and you no longer have the resources. Even if you are not working full time, let them think you are. Most communities do not have adult day care for medically fragile persons so they can't point you to that to try to get you to take the elder back. Stay firm. Then when they realize you cannot care for the patient anymore, they will usually (not always but it is common) send them to rehab pending a bed opening up in a nursing home or group home.

It is a real problem. These days with so much extraordinary medical procedures and pharmaceutical support, people are far out living their ability to care for themselves by not weeks or months but years and even decades. It is straining families to the breaking point, fracturing a lot of relationships, finances, and community resources. Planning for eldercare, expanding the safety net, problem solving all got kicked down the road and went unaddressed for so long that the US is 20-30 years behind the eight ball in terms of evolving social policy and resources to match the outcomes of expanded life spans coinciding with medical fragility and extended periods of lost mobility.

So I get really leery about people taking in elders when there was no cohesive plan in place that all families enthusiastically embraced long before crisis forced their hands. Multi I generational homes can be a real blessing. But I think they only work when all the planning and transition takes place prior to the elder becoming a high care person so everyone has a chance to integrate their lives under better circumstances and with less stress...iron out the kinks so to speak. Life being quite the evil little pixie, unfortunately doesn't always give us that time!

And I say all of this as someone who owns a home in Alabama, our retirement home, that is actually set up for three/four generations to live there if needed. But that was a long process of planning with my mom and our kids, and then careful execution. Despite all of that, mother in law still will never live with us. My mom absolutely will. Mother in law will end up in a facility here if she continues to deteriorate and then in a facility in Huntsville.

[mlktwins]

This is such a depressing thread -- LOL.  You know that Why is everyone depressed thread?  This would be the reason for me!

I'm so sorry everyone is dealing with/has dealt with so much to help our elderly.  I feel like I would like to enjoy a bit of my life too (I'm 54), but it is all consuming.  And...still having kids to finish raising -- just so much.

[Faith-manor]

24 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

This is such a depressing thread -- LOL.  You know that Why is everyone depressed thread?  This would be the reason for me!

I'm so sorry everyone is dealing with/has dealt with so much to help our elderly.  I feel like I would like to enjoy a bit of my life too (I'm 54), but it is all consuming.  And...still having kids to finish raising -- just so much.

We are what is known as the sandwiched generation. We have been squashed between the two!

[Slache]

29 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

This is such a depressing thread -- LOL.  You know that Why is everyone depressed thread?  This would be the reason for me!

I'm so sorry everyone is dealing with/has dealt with so much to help our elderly.  I feel like I would like to enjoy a bit of my life too (I'm 54), but it is all consuming.  And...still having kids to finish raising -- just so much.

It really is. I spent much of my teen years caring for my grandmother, so I know what it means, and I know with my Lupus that I can't do it. My husband's childhood was ruined because 3 toxic households moved in together so that grandma could be taken care of. So many very bad things came out of that, and now it's being repeated in SIL's family.

Then you have my dad, who should be moving in with us and would be welcomed to, but he knows everything Faith Minor said because he went through it with his dad, and he doesn't want to do it to us.

It's all a mess and none of it has to be.

[mlktwins]

14 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

We are what is known as the sandwiched generation. We have been squashed between the two!

It sucks!!!!

[Slache]

1 minute ago, mlktwins said:

It sucks!!!!

And it has taught a lot of us (I'm 35) NOT TO TAKE OUR PARENTS IN, which is not how it should be. I should be able to offer help as long as I'm able without consequences.

[mlktwins]

16 minutes ago, Slache said:

And it has taught a lot of us (I'm 35) NOT TO TAKE OUR PARENTS IN, which is not how it should be. I should be able to offer help as long as I'm able without consequences.

It really isn’t how it should be.  Would this apply to siblings as well?  Both DH and I have older single siblings that will be alone.

[Slache]

Just now, mlktwins said:

It really isn’t how it should be.  Would this apply to siblings as well?  Both DH and I have older single siblings that will be alone.

I'm sure. I would look at your state. If it's as simple as calling an ambulance to come get them then you have nothing to worry about.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, mlktwins said:

It really isn’t how it should be.  Would this apply to siblings as well?  Both DH and I have older single siblings that will be alone.

It depends on a lot of things like their finances and health. Our political/legal landscape really had not kept up with the complexity of situations so many of us face. Maybe you can find a social worker or community legal aid lawyer who is really experienced with these issues and can ask them some tough questions.

[Wheres Toto]

Our plan for my mother was to build an addition onto our house for her to live in as long as she was able.  No stairs, a nice quiet area (she loves our backyard), we'd be close (obviously), but she'd still have her own space, no worries about snow, or grocery shopping, or finances except her personal vehicle and medical, etc.  She's in her mid-70's.  

Instead she bought a two story townhouse (stairs!, she is not good with stairs and hasn't been in years), about an hour away from us (?!?!), where she has to take care of snow, leaves, etc. herself, and has nobody nearby for anything.   At Thanksgiving she was talking about having Christmas at her house, but oldest dd splits her holidays with her dad's family and the extra 45 minutes of driving will make it impossible for her to join in.   So mom will have to drive the hour to our house or the 45 minutes to dd's apartment in order to be included in any holidays.  

She actually closes on this new house next week so this is a current situation that has me ready to punch something.  She keeps doing group messages on Facebook telling everyone about it and I have to keep leaving the group because every time someone says "congratulations" or "That's great", I want to reply with an all caps "THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING!!!!".    Mom is very aware of how I feel about this.  

So, thanks to this stupid decision I'm sure the next step is going to be a crisis situation where she's fallen down those damn stairs or something else has happened and she can no longer live alone.  But we aren't doing the addition since she isn't moving in with us so we won't have anyplace for her to come and she will have to go into assisted living or something.  We will NOT accept care for her at that point.  

My stepmother is trying to get someone to take in my dad, but hasn't even asked me because she knows we don't have space.  They just ask us for money. 

It's just me and my brother and my brother is in Florida (and kind of useless for any of this stuff).

MIL still lives alone and dh goes down and helps her with things every other weekend.   She lives about 3 hours away so he goes down for the whole weekend.  Her situation is temporary, she was given 6 months to 2 years about a year and a half ago.   Dh does have POA and has for years so it was all in place when situations occurred.  

It's been a big crazy and rough on all of us, especially him, and makes it even more stupid that my mother moved an hour in the opposite direction.  

[Slache]

Good boundaries @Wheres Toto. I absolutely did the "I will do these 99 things" and got the reply "I will only accept this 1 thing" and I. just. can't.

[MooCow]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

We are what is known as the sandwiched generation. We have been squashed between the two!

Yup. The pressure is ridiculous and exhausting. 

[Slache]

1 minute ago, MooCow said:

Yup. The pressure is ridiculous and exhausting. 

I am so sorry. I know it's unrelenting and unappreciated by the world. Thank you for what you do.

[Wheres Toto]

20 minutes ago, Slache said:

Good boundaries @Wheres Toto. I absolutely did the "I will do these 99 things" and got the reply "I will only accept this 1 thing" and I. just. can't.

Yeah, I'm standing firm with decent boundaries at this point but a lot of it is just because I'm royally pissed.   We spent almost a year setting up a plan, helped her pack over the summer, helped her move in with my aunt (temporary while we did the addition), just to have her change the whole plan in the stupidest way possible.  I refuse to help her move, I refuse to offer advice (I would have when she was buying this place if she had let us know before it was a done deal), I refuse to go out of my way to work with the new situation, and I refuse to do a damn thing to help with this insanity.  

I'll call or message her every couple days and if I don't hear from her, I'll call the local police for a welfare check.  

I'm glad that it sounds like your husband is on board with setting firm limits too.  That certainly is helpful.  

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

Yeah, I'm standing firm with decent boundaries at this point but a lot of it is just because I'm royally pissed.   

Whatever works!

[Carrie12345]

We’re in what feels like a weird spot to me, with one parent who has passed, one who’s doing very poorly, one severe narcissist with zero contact, and one person who avoids nearly all talk of end of life planning. 

In the first set, our advice/concerns were ignored for years and authorities eventually forced hands due to home conditions. The VA did help to secure housing. FIL chose to put the rest of the family there, and ride out end stage cancer in another relative’s home. (Who happens to work as a caregiver.) If push had come to shove, I do think we would have brought him here, and it would have felt “right”, but it also would have been a horror show with MIL’s constant interference. There were many incidents between her and the other relatives, including right in the middle of the hospital as well as literally over his dead body. Overall, it would have added to the traumas we’ve already gone through with them. BUT, it wouldn’t have been a long term arrangement.

I don’t know how long my stepdad has. I’m  fairly confident my mom has an idea, but isn’t telling. They moved 12+ hours away years ago, or a 2 hour plane ride with 2 hours driving on one end and another hour or so on the other. They manage their house relatively well, and his son helps with some major home projects (and lives in a 3rd distant state.) But the siblings near them are somewhat newly independent. I worry that they don’t have the resources to be of much help. And my parents DO NOT LIKE having small children around, so I don’t see going back to cohabitating working out well for at least another 5-10 years.  Which one of them probably doesn’t have.

A few years ago, I did try to talk about getting a place where they could fully retire with us, but they didn’t bite. Now we’re building a house that isn’t set up for that, but does have some makeshift potential if absolutely needed. That said, I’d now only consider it for my mom. Age and illness has apparently turned her husband into more of a blatant racist who’s mean to children and a jerk to everyone.  My sister moved out for fear of her kids’ safety.
My mom would be a handful herself, but not to the same degree.

We don’t get to choose our parents or how they turn out. We aren’t all equipped to care for even the “easy” parents. Throw in some major mental health or personality complications, and we simply cannot be expected to destroy ourselves and potentially our children out of guilt or societal expectation. It’s not that black and white.

My aunt and uncle did so much for my grandparents in their later years, and I’m so grateful that they were able to. For the most part, my grandparents were wonderful people with “normal” quirks, and it was still difficult for them. The kind of difficult I would embrace for parental caregiving and feel good about.

My family already suffered the ill effects of a nightmare family. We removed ourselves to save ourselves. I feel absolutely zero obligation to throw ourselves back into the fire for anyone happy to see us burn.

 

[Arcadia]

As for being executor of your MIL’s will, that would depend more on how toxic the other relatives are. I am the executor for my parents will even though I am in a different country because my only sibling is often “bullied” by authorities. My sibling and I doesn’t have any issues and my parents only have cash assets so that is easy. 
My in-laws on the other hand is going to be nasty when it comes to the execution of their will. One of my husband’s siblings would want more than his fair share. Luckily my husband is not the executor. I have seen siblings harass siblings for more money and even taking them to court.

Healthwise, my parents had long planned for when they need help. If they lose their mental abilities, I have trusted relatives who would help. I have no idea what my in-laws has planned, all I know is they expect their kids to bail them out moneywise if they used up their cash. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

There are professional executors that can be appointed/ paid to do it if a family member doesn't want to do it.