This video is being labeled as CRT

[Guest]

Tangentially, I just think seahorse evolution was the *best* idea, even better than marsupial pouches, which really, non-marsupial mammals should have worked that pouch idea out ages ago. 
 

There are no deadbeat dad seahorses. Dad holds the babies in the pouch while mom goes off and gets her Master’s degree. 

[ktgrok]

On 11/24/2021 at 10:22 PM, Junie said:

I get it that slow change is not desirable.  But, there is also the tendency in our country to double-down and make things worse if people think they are being treated unfairly.  That is what I meant about changing a little bit at a time, perhaps by focusing on the egregious war paint.

I know a lot of white people feel like they're being ganged up on and now they feel like their Thanksgiving holiday is being stolen from them.  They don't want to be reminded of the brutality to the Native Americans.  They just want to keep celebrating the way they always have.

I think Native American history should be taught separate from Thanksgiving.  Yes, we were taught the Thanksgiving Lie that the Pilgrims and Indians were such great friends.  I think that we can get rid of that narrative without introducing all of the brutality that happened later.

 

PRoblem is that they freak out over small changes too. 

On 11/24/2021 at 10:45 PM, Junie said:

 

OK, so I apparently am misunderstanding something or not explaining myself clearly.  And I want to understand -- I'm honestly not sure what I'm missing?

I'm assuming that the guy raising the outrage is white.  There has been a lot of outrage in the white community -- January 6th was a big part of it.  And masks.  And vaccine mandates.  And then CRT.  And books in the school libraries.  For some white people, they feel like they're being ganged up on.  They know that minorities will soon be the majority in our country.  They are racist and scared.  So now when they feel like Thanksgiving is being attacked, they are outraged.

It's not right and I disagree with it, but it's what I'm seeing.

That some will be upset by the truth is not a reason to hide the truth. 

[Guest]

You know, just so perhaps @Junie does not feel alone, I should say I thought some of the details of the cartoon were just not necessary for children to learn in conjunction with thanksgiving. I definitely think it’s *bonkers* that someone flips out about it, however, I did not teach my children the whole heavy tale on Thanksgiving, just as I didn’t teach them Christmas and Easter were pagan holidays “Christianized” by the Catholic Church. I always taught them Thanksgiving was a time to specifically remember to be grateful for all the wonders of life: family, friends, plenty. I kinda don’t care why the pilgrims had a feast. To me, it has always represented a time for all people to reflect on the many blessings we enjoy. 

[goldberry]

Re: seahorses, I dunno, the one where their tummies touch is 🔥🔥🔥😄
 

Edited November 27, 2021 by goldberry

[Roadrunner]

I do wonder though if somebody actually did a good statistical study on what percentage of population actually objects to mating seahorses or brain pop thanksgiving video, or Ruby Bridges book what we would come up with? I would be shocked if it’s more than a fringe group despite all the noise. 1%? 2%? 5%? Can’t be more. Just can’t. 

[Terabith]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Actually, if I wanted to get offended by it, I'd find it relies a bit heavily on noble savage tropes, and that's offensive, imo. 

It's actually a really interesting video, because the facts are fine- telling the untold story - but it does reveal several storytelling  elements that people could reasonably be uncomfortable with.

As mentioned above, and with the addition of the noble savage myth:

1. Settlers are stripped of context - no mention of factors propelling them other than generic 'didn't  agree with government'. More factually, they left the UK due to a combination of religious and economic reasons. 

2. Images of Thanksgiving today are race segregated. No imaging of mixed families. 

3. Noble savage tropes re Squanto. 

If I wanted to connect these aspects of the video to the most egregious examples of racial essentializing seen in educational settings, 1 and 2 would do it. 

3 is ugh. Ironically, it reveals a kind of racism, where the other is seen as not human in the way the standard European is. But instead of the not-human being demonised, the not-human is purified. Same coin. 

 

 

 

I mean, is it perfect?  No.  But it's a seven minute video aimed at seven year olds.  That's trying to cover a pretty wide diversity of topics.  It seems pretty okay to me.  I've watched a lot of Brainpop Jr, and there are certainly other videos that have racially mixed families.  I'm not sure how much context on settlers or how much nuance into the story of Squanto you can put into a seven minute video (for seven year olds).  

[Melissa Louise]

15 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I mean, is it perfect?  No.  But it's a seven minute video aimed at seven year olds.  That's trying to cover a pretty wide diversity of topics.  It seems pretty okay to me.  I've watched a lot of Brainpop Jr, and there are certainly other videos that have racially mixed families.  I'm not sure how much context on settlers or how much nuance into the story of Squanto you can put into a seven minute video (for seven year olds).  

Sure. I'm just saying, it can be deconstructed, and like every text under the sun, it has its own biases. 

As I also said, I learned a lot from it. 

[Sneezyone]

I feel like I should make my kids watch Footloose with me. So much to unpack. All in the name of teaching, of course.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I feel like I should make my kids watch Footloose with me. So much to unpack. All in the name of teaching, of course.

I went through a summer where I kept trying to show my kids 80's movies, and I kept getting halfway through and going, "Oh my, this is so incredibly problematic, and I did not realize or remotely remember it as being so."  It was pretty depressing, honestly.  The only movies of my childhood that held up at all well were Dead Poet's Society and Star Trek 4.  

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

2. Images of Thanksgiving today are race segregated. No imaging of mixed families.

I didn't recall it being that way, but figured you were probably right since that was one of your two main issues. It was bugging me that I would have missed that though (it tends to stick out to me, as my own family is mixed), so I went back and viewed it again. In rewatching, I saw three images that depicted modern families celebrating Thanksgiving, and the only one that doesn't appear mixed race to me is the one depicting the Guatemalan family, sharing what some Guatemalan families might eat on Thanksgiving. The first family (shown around 0:30) and the third modern family (shown at 6:38) both appear to be of mixed heritage to me. The third one is very varied.

There was one other family that was shown when they were talking about Thanksgiving first being established (05:22) that looked all white which would be historically typical for that time.

eta: In finding time stamps, I did see one other family, that looked similar to eachother.  I don't see anything problematic in that. Some families all share the same racial background, and some families don't. It's appropriate to show both.

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I went through a summer where I kept trying to show my kids 80's movies, and I kept getting halfway through and going, "Oh my, this is so incredibly problematic, and I did not realize or remotely remember it as being so."  It was pretty depressing, honestly. 

QFT

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I do wonder though if somebody actually did a good statistical study on what percentage of population actually objects to mating seahorses or brain pop thanksgiving video, or Ruby Bridges book what we would come up with? I would be shocked if it’s more than a fringe group despite all the noise. 1%? 2%? 5%? Can’t be more. Just can’t. 

Well, that’s what, IMO, is so destructive about outrage culture. There are a bunch of news stories that Trump up (pun intended, though it was happening before 2016) whatever the outrage-de-jour is supposed to be and then there are a bunch of people who adopt that whole “horrors!” Mentality without having ever asked themselves what they are so torqued up over. 
 

I watched a certain news channel for several years in the early 2000’s through to the early 2010’s. I quit when I started to see how this whole pattern played out *constantly*. It didn’t matter what the social tenor actually was; manufactured outrage could be drummed up over any stupid thing: “holiday” cups instead of Christmas cups; Jingle Bells at the school choir recital rather than O Holy Night; removing “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance. It is still like this. There are people freaking out about CRT who don’t know a thing about it except what they have heard on FB or FN. Same people who freaked out bathrooms and who is in what bathroom. Same people who went bananas when Target said they would not have a “girl” and “boy” toy aisle, which, I *never, ever* looked for toys that way; I looked for Lego’s or Cars or dolls or stuffies or puzzles or board games. I never once asked where they “boy” aisle is or the “girl” aisle is. Manufactured outrage. 
 

I do wonder who was bothered about the seahorses but I can tell you, I have been in a group before who had ONE person like that and she made up 99% of the complaints about every cotton-picking thing. She *would* be the one complaining about an animal mating book. One vocal complainer can make it seem like there’s a lot of noise surrounding something. 

[Roadrunner]

22 minutes ago, Quill said:

Well, that’s what, IMO, is so destructive about outrage culture. There are a bunch of news stories that Trump up (pun intended, though it was happening before 2016) whatever the outrage-de-jour is supposed to be and then there are a bunch of people who adopt that whole “horrors!” Mentality without having ever asked themselves what they are so torqued up over. 
 

I watched a certain news channel for several years in the early 2000’s through to the early 2010’s. I quit when I started to see how this whole pattern played out *constantly*. It didn’t matter what the social tenor actually was; manufactured outrage could be drummed up over any stupid thing: “holiday” cups instead of Christmas cups; Jingle Bells at the school choir recital rather than O Holy Night; removing “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance. It is still like this. There are people freaking out about CRT who don’t know a thing about it except what they have heard on FB or FN. Same people who freaked out bathrooms and who is in what bathroom. Same people who went bananas when Target said they would not have a “girl” and “boy” toy aisle, which, I *never, ever* looked for toys that way; I looked for Lego’s or Cars or dolls or stuffies or puzzles or board games. I never once asked where they “boy” aisle is or the “girl” aisle is. Manufactured outrage. 
 

I do wonder who was bothered about the seahorses but I can tell you, I have been in a group before who had ONE person like that and she made up 99% of the complaints about every cotton-picking thing. She *would* be the one complaining about an animal mating book. One vocal complainer can make it seem like there’s a lot of noise surrounding something. 

Exactly right. It makes it look like the entire country has gone bonkers, but really, it’s just a small segment. 
I can tell you watching things out of CA makes it seem as if I live in a different country altogether. 
 

I am glad we don’t have TV. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Melissa Louise]

27 minutes ago, KSera said:

I didn't recall it being that way, but figured you were probably right since that was one of your two main issues. It was bugging me that I would have missed that though (it tends to stick out to me, as my own family is mixed), so I went back and viewed it again. In rewatching, I saw three images that depicted modern families celebrating Thanksgiving, and the only one that doesn't appear mixed race to me is the one depicting the Guatemalan family, sharing what some Guatemalan families might eat on Thanksgiving. The first family (shown around 0:30) and the third modern family (shown at 6:38) both appear to be of mixed heritage to me. The third one is very varied.

There was one other family that was shown when they were talking about Thanksgiving first being established (05:22) that looked all white which would be historically typical for that time.

eta: In finding time stamps, I did see one other family, that looked similar to eachother.  I don't see anything problematic in that. Some families all share the same racial background, and some families don't. It's appropriate to show both.

I didn't see any white/Black or white/brown families, but I literally watched it once. 

They're not 'my main issues' -my issue is the noble savage stuff - and it's not even an issue! Because I was literally playing around with the video, squinting my eyes to see if it could be seen from another direction, my first response being, cool, I learned some stuff. 

Thinking about something for fun isn't the same as being outraged by it but of coursez as usual I regret opening my mouth. 

[MercyA]

55 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Star Trek 4.  

I ❤️ Star Trek IV. So quotable. Plus, whales!

One of my favorite quotes. "Computer? Computer?" 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by MercyA

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Exactly right. It makes it look like the entire country has gone bonkers, but really, it’s just a small segment. 
I can tell you watching things out of CA makes it seem as if I live in a different country altogether. 
 

I am glad we don’t have TV. 

It’s a small segment that’s gone bonkers to be sure but they have outsize impact and, now, the force of law on their side. Moms For Liberty is a national organization with chapters all over the country. It’s so grassroots, it simultaneously began being quoted and listened to just within the last four-six months in a dozen or more states.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Sneezyone

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

You know, just so perhaps @Junie does not feel alone, I should say I thought some of the details of the cartoon were just not necessary for children to learn in conjunction with thanksgiving.

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Thinking about something for fun isn't the same as being outraged by it but of course as usual I regret opening my mouth. 

Can I just say that I like to hear everybody's perspective on these topics? (Everybody here. Not everybody in the world. Because we rock.) It gives me a lot to think about.

[KSera]

19 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Thinking about something for fun isn't the same as being outraged by it but of coursez as usual I regret opening my mouth. 

Maybe my post came across differently than intended? I think my writing style is a little blunt/abrupt and maybe that makes me sound upset or something when I'm not? 🤷‍♀️ I was interested also, which was why I went back and looked. I agree with you on Noble Savage tropes. And they are everywhere.

[Fritz]

If the only issue the school systems were trying to push is "teaching historically accurate history" we would not being having the issue of privlege walks etc. where they are purposefully dividing students by race. They would not be injecting race into every subject like math. We have seen this over and over. 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/stop-dividing-children-by-race-its-harmful-and-divisive-opinion/ar-AARaAd5

We are a Black-Jewish woman, a Chinese woman, and a Jewish man of Middle Eastern descent. One might think we would celebrate this identity exercise in the name of "diversity." But nothing could be further from the truth. Such racially segregated groups are harmful to the participants' sense of self and highly divisive. Public schools in particular have no business holding them.

What's wrong with school-imposed racially segregated affinity groups?

First, the majority of segregated affinity groups are exercises in indoctrination. Racial affinity groups may differ, but the majority of them task kids with "owning" their level of "privilege" or "complicity," based on where they fall on a hierarchy of racial privilege.

Students of color are asked to examine their internalized racial inferiority. School officials pretend to know who has power and how much of it. Apparently, school officials are equipped with a special 23andMe radar that allows them to see how much power a student is endowed with!

While reflecting on one's own fortunes and showing gratitude are healthy human endeavors, telling people how much power they have based on their skin color or other any other immutable characteristic is, putting it charitably, an act of coercion. And it is opinion masquerading as fact. Many parents understandably do not want their children to go through such humiliation or indoctrination.

Second, these exercises force children to identify in ways that may be uncomfortable and inconsistent with their personal identities. What if a child chooses not to identify as a specific race? Who is the school to say that a child needs to be racialized at all?

[Dmmetler]

My representative today posted his support for a proposed "parent bill of rights". The thing is that everything in that bill, and I mean everything, is already available to guardians of students attending public schools, and most to the community as a whole, in my state. And has been since at least the early 1990's, when I started teaching. I suspect that this is the case in most states. Parents have a right to review educational materials, a right to talk to teachers and administrators directly, a right to have outside advocacy and support in school matters, a right to opt their kids out of objectionable materials (the reason why you'll have Jingle Bells vs O, Holy Night, BTW-the goal is always to have something that will raise the fewest objections. As a music teacher, I have a less than happy relationship with winter holidays because of past such experiences)...and so on.

 

So, they're willing to give up state level control to get something they already have. 

 

 

[Pam in CT]

I've been mulling all weekend about this thread, and how Thanksgiving conflates gratitude and being mindful of our blessings (who's opposed to THAT?) with the telling of a particular version of our national origin story.  And it occurs to me that a rather high percentage of American holidays *do* have a telling-of-our-national-story component to them. Columbus Day,  Independence Day. Presidents' Day. Memorial Day. Veterans' Day. Recently: MLK.  Arguably: Christmas.  Really about the only holiday that is truly distinct from a particular version of the story of who we are, is New Years.  I don't know that we're terribly different from other nations / societies in this regard, but I've never really thought about it.

 

re percentages of people who actually are Outraged!!! by noting less-noble episodes in our national history like seizure of native land and schools segregated by race

21 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I do wonder though if somebody actually did a good statistical study on what percentage of population actually objects to mating seahorses or brain pop thanksgiving video, or Ruby Bridges book what we would come up with? I would be shocked if it’s more than a fringe group despite all the noise. 1%? 2%? 5%? Can’t be more. Just can’t. 

I wonder too; and concur that (as in so many other realms) it is very likely to be a small segment of the whole.

But I concur as well that since the former POTUS chose to plant his 1776 Commission marker in the ground after 1/6 failed to keep him in power; and the likes of Rufo and Tucker using their platforms to amplify repeatedly and with escalating urgency in the ensuing months, and with dark money pouring into PACs (another, there are several others) supporting the copycat legislative bans sweeping the south last spring and underwriting state and local candidates running on anti-CRT platforms this fall...

20 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s a small segment that’s gone bonkers to be sure but they have outsize impact and, now, the force of law on their side. Moms For Liberty is a national organization with chapters all over the country. It’s so grassroots, it simultaneously began being quoted and listened to just within the last four-six months in a dozen or more states.

... while the number of real students who have actually encountered Privilege Walks are very few -- the same handful of episodes seem to be recycled on loop in the outrage articles -- and the number of real parents who actually  are outraged over stuff like the Brainpop in the OP here are likely also few...

... the impact of the outrage-fueled brouhaha belies the numbers.  That is the point of the outrage fuel: to leverage small numbers into punching above their weight.

 

Texas' anti-CRT legislation  precludes any classroom covering any materials that could result in

Quote

an individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress on account of the individual’s race or sex

(bottom of p. 5)

...which in turn inspired state Rep Matt Krause, chair of "General Investigating" committee, to issue this directive to the deputy commissioner of school programs and "selected" school superintendents, giving them a rather short timeframe in which to identify any of an attached list of 850 books and articles (including the Ruby Bridges picture book we evidently agree is not objectionable, along with the Confessions of Nat Turner,  Isabel Wilkerson's Caste, and Michele Alexander's New Jim Crow, and etc)

Quote

1.Please identify how many copies of each book in the attached Addendum your District possesses and at what campus locations including school library and classroom collections.

2.Please identify the amount of funds spent by your District to acquire the books identified in request No. 1 above. 3. Please identify any other books or content in your District, specifying the campus location and funds spent on acquisition, that address or contain the following topics: human sexuality, sexually transmitted diseases, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) or acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS), sexually explicit images, graphic presentations of sexual behavior that is in violation of the law, or contain material that might make students feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress because of their race or sex or convey that a student, by virtue of their race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.

Your prompt attention to this request is appreciated, and I request a written response via email by November 12, 2021.

That is:

• A handful of extremely powerful folks recognized the enormous potential of tapping into (white) irritation that the dewy-eyed version of "1776" hagiography was eroding; which led in quite rapid-fire succession into
• Ratings
• Fundraising
• Copycat bills simultaneously introduced in 15+ states
• Mobilization of -- I concur -- only a handful, but an extremely LOUD handful, of actual parents
• Actual legislation which now actually is resulting in legislators demanding that school libraries "account" for copies of, and funding used to purchase, content that might "contain material that might make students feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress."

That is: less than a year after folks carrying the 1776 flag, along with the Confederate, broke into the Capitol in a sustained effort to overturn by force the results of an election they did not like, that is where we actually are.

So yeah: the numbers may be few. The fewness of their numbers is in large measure what fuels the deep fear that drives them.  They *know* they are soon to become just another minority.

But we can't afford to discount their effect.

[Dmmetler]

I honestly cannot think of a book that has had any impact whatsoever that hasn’t caused some discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any form of psychological distress, except for maybe some early picture books. The ones which don’t also tend to be about as deep as a mud puddle.

 

Not to mention that if you abolish discomfort, you could make a strong case for abolishing every school subject. I mean, a lot of kids are more disconcerted with having to read, do math, study, etc than over any content! 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

I honestly cannot think of a book that has had any impact whatsoever that hasn’t caused some discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any form of psychological distress, except for maybe some early picture books. The ones which don’t also tend to be about as deep as a mud puddle.

 

Not to mention that if you abolish discomfort, you could make a strong case for abolishing every school subject. I mean, a lot of kids are more disconcerted with having to read, do math, study, etc than over any content! 

No joke! P.E. we should eliminate P.E. it caused me incredible discomfort as a child!

Life is pretty uncomfortable a lot of the time. Part of the purpose of childhood is to learn to deal with that by being guided through it by responsible adults. This CRT pearl clutching is just ridiculous. Why bother teaching them to read? If they can read at all, they are going to end up uncomfortable and distressed. There are billboards and bumper stickers that are downright awful, disgusting, you name it. Good grief. Ya, if some teacher is ignorant enough to do something truly stupid like a Privilege Walk, by all means call it out and demand action. But freaking out and banning books because kids might have their feelings hurt is perpetuating ignorance and doesn't benefit those children one bit.

[Wheres Toto]

29 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

No joke! P.E. we should eliminate P.E. it caused me incredible discomfort as a child!

Life is pretty uncomfortable a lot of the time. Part of the purpose of childhood is to learn to deal with that by being guided through it by responsible adults. This CRT pearl clutching is just ridiculous. Why bother teaching them to read? If they can read at all, they are going to end up uncomfortable and distressed. There are billboards and bumper stickers that are downright awful, disgusting, you name it. Good grief. Ya, if some teacher is ignorant enough to do something truly stupid like a Privilege Walk, by all means call it out and demand action. But freaking out and banning books because kids might have their feelings hurt is perpetuating ignorance and doesn't benefit those children one bit.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me if some people wanted to get to this point.  Where only certain people are taught to read, and masses are kept ignorant.  The anti-intellectualism we are seeing all over the place, that seems like a possible eventual end point.  

[TechWife]

9 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me if some people wanted to get to this point.  Where only certain people are taught to read, and masses are kept ignorant.  The anti-intellectualism we are seeing all over the place, that seems like a possible eventual end point.  

I think this is possible as well. IIRC, literacy is tied to labor movements. Did you know that Sunday School was started by churches in order to teach people to read? 

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

I honestly cannot think of a book that has had any impact whatsoever that hasn’t caused some discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any form of psychological distress, except for maybe some early picture books. The ones which don’t also tend to be about as deep as a mud puddle.

 

Not to mention that if you abolish discomfort, you could make a strong case for abolishing every school subject. I mean, a lot of kids are more disconcerted with having to read, do math, study, etc than over any content! 

Yes. Because that’s the point of education. Otherwise what is a point of reading literature or history if it doesn’t stir emotions and rise serious thoughts. 

[Melissa Louise]

9 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

I honestly cannot think of a book that has had any impact whatsoever that hasn’t caused some discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any form of psychological distress, except for maybe some early picture books. The ones which don’t also tend to be about as deep as a mud puddle.

 

Not to mention that if you abolish discomfort, you could make a strong case for abolishing every school subject. I mean, a lot of kids are more disconcerted with having to read, do math, study, etc than over any content! 

I will regret replying, but I think the point is less about discomfort, and more about inculcating discomfort re an unchangeable aspect of the self.

I just finished Ruth Ozeki's latest book and wept. It caused a storm of emotion for me. I agree that's often the sign of a great work of art. But I was moved by the compassion of the author - the reaction was available to all readers - it was deeply humanistic. 

To be moved by art is a long, long way from reading/hearing that your whiteness (either literal or cultural) is a type of original sin. That's just propaganda. 

Great literature never particularizes in this way. It is always universal. It always allows the reader to freely identify with and between different aspects of the text. It never binds readers by race or sex or class.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I will regret replying, but I think the point is less about discomfort, and more about inculcating discomfort re an unchangeable aspect of the self.

Great literature never particularizes in this way. It is always universal. It always allows the reader to freely identify with and between different aspects of the text. It never binds readers by race or sex or class.

 

I'm glad we finally agree! To hell with Huck Finn once and for all!

[Terabith]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I'm glad we finally agree! To hell with Huck Finn once and for all!

Yeah, I am glad I did not read Huck Finn until college.  As an English major, I think it made perfect sense there.  But not in high school.  

Honestly, I am truly confused about the CRT/ discomfort narrative.  I mean, I went to majority African American schools, where all my junior high social studies teachers were African American, in a time where there was no real prescribed curriculum.  And I did learn all about red lining and the Tulsa massacre and what not.  I definitely grew up understanding the role of institutional racism, but at no point did anyone make me feel guilty in a personal way for being white.  And I'm about as neurotic and prone to guilt as you can get.  I certainly learned about how I benefit from privilege, but that's very different from what I hear discussed.  

I really do think there is a strong anti-intellectual movement connected with CRT.  I think that's an important realization.  

[Roadrunner]

My understanding was the opposition was to curriculum that is apparently being developed/piloted to introduce anti racist training. Apparently curriculum is being implemented that teaches kids not to be racist. And that is what parents are calling CTR (rightfully or wrongfully). Having seen none of it, but having heard anecdotal evidence of its existence through highly publicized stories (like Megan Kelly on Maher), my understanding is original outrage was targeted at those things. I could absolutely see how well intentioned people can create utter garbage of a curriculum. So I am not surprised that parents are finding things they don’t like. 

 This book/literature banning business is just bizarre.  

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

My understanding was the opposition was to curriculum that is apparently being developed/piloted to introduce anti racist training. Apparently curriculum is being implemented that teaches kids not to be racist. And that is what parents are calling CTR (rightfully or wrongfully). Having seen none of it, but having heard anecdotal evidence of its existence through highly publicized stories (like Megan Kelly on Maher), my understanding is original outrage was targeted at those things. I could absolutely see how well intentioned people can create utter garbage of a curriculum. So I am not surprised that parents are finding things they don’t like. 

 This book/literature banning business is just bizarre.  

I am not familiar with any such curriculum in my community but I live in the coastal south. If you're unfamiliar with such a thing in your 'liberal' west coast environs, how do you suppose these anecdotes received so much attention and why do you suppose they are being amplified by conservative media? And, as an aside...is being anti-racist a bad thing? When/how did it become so? Isn't that what color-blind ideology aspires to create, a world that is the antithesis of racist? I am completely befuddled as to what Megyn Kelly and her 'Jesus and Santa were white' commentary have to do with what is happening in public school classrooms. Her kids attended/attend ridiculously expensive PRIVATE schools, not public, as do (presumably) most of the children Bill Maher is cognizant of. How does *HER* or *HIS* experience justify changes to STATEWIDE systems of PUBLIC education? To borrow a pet issue...why should the problems of the rich get to infect/affect my kids' educations?

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Terabith said:

really do think there is a strong anti-intellectual movement connected with CRT.  I think that's an important realization.  

Yes; it’s the same people who are trying to convince parents their kids should all “go to trade school” instead of college. In practice what I see most often is this translates to not going to college AND not learning a trade. I think the political purpose of telling people their kids can do a trade and not obtain a degree is entirely so that the public will not demand tuition free access to college. It goes with the whole anti-intellectual package. 

[TechWife]

13 hours ago, Terabith said:

…

I really do think there is a strong anti-intellectual movement connected with CRT.  I think that's an important realization.  

I agree. It comes out when the objectors are engaged with the professionals or even those who have a basic understanding of what CRT really is. There’s a lack of willingness to acknowledge others’ expertise, or expertise in general. I’ve observed that the “death of expertise” and anti-intellectualism are closely correlated among the people that I know. 

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Yes; it’s the same people who are trying to convince parents their kids should all “go to trade school” instead of college. In practice what I see most often is this translates to not going to college AND not learning a trade. I think the political purpose of telling people their kids can do a trade and not obtain a degree is entirely so that the public will not demand tuition free access to college. It goes with the whole anti-intellectual package. 

This gets the trophy. In our area trades are not offered through on the job training or apprenticeship. They are licensed fields which require first, "book learning" and state testing. Guess where this is offered? Community College. The notable exceptions are Paramedic School which is of course state regulated and is usually offered through EMS itself although it can be offered through CC. The other three are house painting drywall, and cosmetology.  Even the electrical journeyman path is through CC. I.T. certifications? CC.

So because of the bias against formal education beyond high school, against (in the case of the many local fundamentalist protestant churches) "the devil's school", in the end, they don't go into trades either. The end result is we have an awful lot of young adults around here going through their twenties unqualified to do anything which means yea, they can cashier for Wal-Mart or the gas station, work fast food, etc. However, they have no room for advancement. These are totally dead end jobs. The managers of these places all have two year business management degrees from CC because that is what owners/corporate want.

What I always find so mystifying about this is the sheer number of these kida.whose parents are educated post high school, thinking about the ones I know, a dentist, two vetetinarians, three dada with multiple contracting licenses that required easily two years of CC study and test taking, the one with the bachelor's degree in automotive engineering, several RN's, two pastors with master's in divinity degrees from Asbury of all places, another with a four-year criminal justice degree working for the probation/parole department, ... and their financial stability is based on their educations opening job opportunities for them. Yet they seek to restrict this for their children. The only thing I can think of is they live in very big fear that an education will and job opportunities will allow their adult kids to move away, become independent have an original thought and this is unacceptable.

We have also had a huge resistance to any kind of quality high school education much less posts high school from the group of workers who all got jobs in the 60's and 70's in manufacturing with the big three automakers or their subsidiaries. These folks had great jobs, great benefits, and pensions and retired young leading a very comfortable retirement life. They honestly thing this is coming back to America! I mean, they really think their kids will still find jobs like that without post high school education and training. It's crazy! I have said before at school board meetings when parents get upset because Buford has to take algebra 2 and biology in order to graduate with a regular diploma, "Go look at the job postings for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Go look at the job postings for Walbro. You will not find jobs that do not require at minimum a 2 year degree plus professional licensing or certifications (or the equivalent in many years of experience) and all of those certifications and licenses require some level of college coursework in order to pass the tests. Your kid can take Algebra now or later, but unless he is content at minimum wage, 30 hours a week, no health benefits no 401K at Dollar General for the rest of his life, your kid cannot avoid going to CC or Paramedic School." Well, okay, they can work on one of the local dairy farms. But not only are the pay and hours awful, the local farmers are down right abusive to employees which is a topic for another day. The local farm culture here is NOT healthy.

So there is quite a LOT of living with heads in the sand going on around here. I am not saying that this is everywhere or is the source of the anti-intellectual stance in other places. I am just referring to local culture. They seem to think that without the effort of getting more than a very basic childhood education at our not very stellar public schools, employers should be throwing their kids fantastic, high paid jobs with benefits and room for future advancement. Oy!

I think our county tech center for public school does not help. It used to be really good and did help prep kids for further training and education in trades. However, in the quest for making sure all the kids graduate on time regardless of what they have or have not achieved, has been dumbed down to an unholy level of stupid and is a half day of just babysitting teenagers while doing a few fun projects. No real education is going on there now. But the parents are under the delusion that their kids are being prepped for marvelous jobs. Given that the vast majority of those in cosmetology do not pass their board licenses, and the vet tech kids have a high rate of failing out of the first semester of vet tech, and ......you can see a running theme here....I think people need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Locally, is a very large group of parents that would be happy with their kids never reading anything in literature in school never taking a math based science class, never having a history class that required one to think and read above a 7th grade ish developmental level, never take algebra or accounting, never have a fine arts class....just don't touch football and cheerleading. Those are sacrosanct.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

What I always find so mystifying about this is the sheer number of these kida.whose parents are educated post high school, thinking about the ones I know, a dentist, two vetetinarians, three dada with multiple contracting licenses that required easily two years of CC study and test taking, the one with the bachelor's degree in automotive engineering, several RN's, two pastors with master's in divinity degrees from Asbury of all places, another with a four-year criminal justice degree working for the probation/parole department, ... and their financial stability is based on their educations opening job opportunities for them. Yet they seek to restrict this for their children. The only thing I can think of is they live in very big fear that an education will and job opportunities will allow their adult kids to move away, become independent have an original thought and this is unacceptable.

Yes, yes, yes! That is what I see as well. 99 out of 100 times, the people I see saying they want their kids to “go to trade school” are people who themselves have *at least* a bachelors. My attorney boss says this and his son did not even complete an AA. He isn’t a tradesman, either. So he’s (my boss, the attorney) sitting with his JD, and the earning capacity to pull down a very high six figure income, but he doesn’t see that his son will likely never have one tenth of that earning capacity. 

And I say this as the wife of a tradesman who has made a good living. But the good living is because he is a Master plumber which *also requires* thousands of hours of instruction, passing multiple tests and usually at least six years of work under a Master. 
 

Anyway…this is a big soapbox issue for me and I could rant about it for hour…

Edited November 29, 2021 by Quill
Add clarity

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Quill said:

Yes, yes, yes! That is what I see as well. 99 out of 100 times, the people I see saying they want their kids to “go to trade school” are people who themselves have *at least* a bachelors. My attorney boss says this and his son did not even complete an AA. He isn’t a tradesman, either. So he’s sitting with his JD, and the earning capacity to pull down a very high six figure income, but he doesn’t see that his son will likely never have one tenth of that earning capacity. 

And I say this as the wife of a tradesman who has made a good living. But the good living is because he is a Master plumber which *also requires* thousands of hours of instruction, passing multiple tests and usually at least six years of work under a Master. 
 

Anyway…this is a big soapbox issue for me and I could rant about it for hour…

Right. I have to laugh at the college educated parents who suggests a trade and somehow thinks this is "easy" to get like the test is "what is the difference between a Philip's head and Flat head screw driver?" Uhm. Nope. A master electrician, a master plummer, a solar contractor, the diesel mechanic for those John Deere tractors, etc. these all require coursework, tons of study, nasty exams, and experience gained by apprenticeship/internship with those already qualified and working in the field, and those things are arranged by the program director of, most of the time, a community college. They are entirely ignorant of the very thing they are recommending to their young adult!

Apparently they still believe the old adage, "Ignorance is bliss!"

[TechWife]

30 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This gets the trophy. In our area trades are not offered through on the job training or apprenticeship. They are licensed fields which require first, "book learning" and state testing. Guess where this is offered? Community College. The notable exceptions are Paramedic School which is of course state regulated and is usually offered through EMS itself although it can be offered through CC. The other three are house painting drywall, and cosmetology.  Even the electrical journeyman path is through CC. I.T. certifications? CC.

So because of the bias against formal education beyond high school, against (in the case of the many local fundamentalist protestant churches) "the devil's school", in the end, they don't go into trades either. The end result is we have an awful lot of young adults around here going through their twenties unqualified to do anything which means yea, they can cashier for Wal-Mart or the gas station, work fast food, etc. However, they have no room for advancement. These are totally dead end jobs. The managers of these places all have two year business management degrees from CC because that is what owners/corporate want.

What I always find so mystifying about this is the sheer number of these kida.whose parents are educated post high school, thinking about the ones I know, a dentist, two vetetinarians, three dada with multiple contracting licenses that required easily two years of CC study and test taking, the one with the bachelor's degree in automotive engineering, several RN's, two pastors with master's in divinity degrees from Asbury of all places, another with a four-year criminal justice degree working for the probation/parole department, ... and their financial stability is based on their educations opening job opportunities for them. Yet they seek to restrict this for their children. The only thing I can think of is they live in very big fear that an education will and job opportunities will allow their adult kids to move away, become independent have an original thought and this is unacceptable.

We have also had a huge resistance to any kind of quality high school education much less posts high school from the group of workers who all got jobs in the 60's and 70's in manufacturing with the big three automakers or their subsidiaries. These folks had great jobs, great benefits, and pensions and retired young leading a very comfortable retirement life. They honestly thing this is coming back to America! I mean, they really think their kids will still find jobs like that without post high school education and training. It's crazy! I have said before at school board meetings when parents get upset because Buford has to take algebra 2 and biology in order to graduate with a regular diploma, "Go look at the job postings for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Go look at the job postings for Walbro. You will not find jobs that do not require at minimum a 2 year degree plus professional licensing or certifications (or the equivalent in many years of experience) and all of those certifications and licenses require some level of college coursework in order to pass the tests. Your kid can take Algebra now or later, but unless he is content at minimum wage, 30 hours a week, no health benefits no 401K at Dollar General for the rest of his life, your kid cannot avoid going to CC or Paramedic School." Well, okay, they can work on one of the local dairy farms. But not only are the pay and hours awful, the local farmers are down right abusive to employees which is a topic for another day. The local farm culture here is NOT healthy.

So there is quite a LOT of living with heads in the sand going on around here. I am not saying that this is everywhere or is the source of the anti-intellectual stance in other places. I am just referring to local culture. They seem to think that without the effort of getting more than a very basic childhood education at our not very stellar public schools, employers should be throwing their kids fantastic, high paid jobs with benefits and room for future advancement. Oy!

I think our county tech center for public school does not help. It used to be really good and did help prep kids for further training and education in trades. However, in the quest for making sure all the kids graduate on time regardless of what they have or have not achieved, has been dumbed down to an unholy level of stupid and is a half day of just babysitting teenagers while doing a few fun projects. No real education is going on there now. But the parents are under the delusion that their kids are being prepped for marvelous jobs. Given that the vast majority of those in cosmetology do not pass their board licenses, and the vet tech kids have a high rate of failing out of the first semester of vet tech, and ......you can see a running theme here....I think people need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Locally, is a very large group of parents that would be happy with their kids never reading anything in literature in school never taking a math based science class, never having a history class that required one to think and read above a 7th grade ish developmental level, never take algebra or accounting, never have a fine arts class....just don't touch football and cheerleading. Those are sacrosanct.

Yes, exactly. My son is not able to go to college & likely never will be. It’s been impossible so far to find a trades job that is a fit for him. The few things that are a fit are impossible to find apprenticeships for that don’t require someone already have an associates degree. A tech certificate isn’t the minimum. Additionally tech certificate programs in his areas of interest & ability are full of people already working in the field who need the credential for professional reasons.  Anyone who thinks tech programs are widely available hasn’t looked into it too much. 

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Yes, exactly. My son is not able to go to college & likely never will be. It’s been impossible so far to find a trades job that is a fit for him. The few things that are a fit are impossible to find apprenticeships for that don’t require someone already have an associates degree. A tech certificate isn’t the minimum. Additionally tech certificate programs in his areas of interest & ability are full of people already working in the field who need the credential for professional reasons.  Anyone who thinks tech programs are widely available hasn’t looked into it too much. 

I am sorry things are so tough for your son! People have no idea just how difficult it is to get going in a career path, and yet make recommendations based on that ignorance. So frustrating! Best wishes to your son.

[Roadrunner]

7 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I am not familiar with any such curriculum in my community but I live in the coastal south. If you're unfamiliar with such a thing in your 'liberal' west coast environs, how do you suppose these anecdotes received so much attention and why do you suppose they are being amplified by conservative media? And, as an aside...is being anti-racist a bad thing? When/how did it become so? Isn't that what color-blind ideology aspires to create, a world that is the antithesis of racist? I am completely befuddled as to what Megyn Kelly and her 'Jesus and Santa were white' commentary have to do with what is happening in public school classrooms. Her kids attended/attend ridiculously expensive PRIVATE schools, not public, as do (presumably) most of the children Bill Maher is cognizant of. How does *HER* or *HIS* experience justify changes to STATEWIDE systems of PUBLIC education? To borrow a pet issue...why should the problems of the rich get to infect/affect my kids' educations?

My kids aren't racist and don’t need reprogramming since K. I guess that’s a sentiment of many parents. 

I am not familiar with such pilot programs because I don’t have kids in early grades to know. 
 

And Meagan Kelly story had nothing to do with Santa. You can look it up if you are interested. My bigger point is it’s the sort of stuff she saw that people are likely to object. How widespread such curriculum is in schools is another question. I also suspect it’s not. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Pam in CT]

re links between CRT brouhaha and growing movement to Defund Education

14 hours ago, Terabith said:

...I really do think there is a strong anti-intellectual movement connected with CRT.  I think that's an important realization.  

Yeah. I was pretty baffled on the prior thread when "school choice" and "teacher unions" were suddenly injected as part of the problem -- what do they have to do with Privilege Walks? -- but eventually worked out that a segment of Cato/AEI type analysts were discussing the potential of "school choice" and voucher policies to enable choosy parents to choose comfy curricula that protected their kids from the prospect of distress. 

I believe this by JD Tucille * was the seminal argument, or at least one of them, back in June.  His own kids attend private school; and he lays out why all parents should similarly be able to curate what their kids are exposed to:

Quote

The Critical Race Theory Debate Wouldn't Matter if We Had More School Choice

Guide your children’s education and let your opponents teach their own kids.

...families that choose how their children learn—my own included—rather than defaulting to government-run institutions don't have to lose anything because we have largely escaped these battles. By homeschooling, or micro-schooling, or picking private or charter schools, we can avoid curricula permeated with ideas we find toxic and select those that present ideas of which we approve or, even better from my perspective, that encourage open debate among opposing perspectives...

..My wife and I aren't worried that the school will suddenly turn into a CRT seminary. We like and trust the administrators and teachers, but we also pay tuition. If the school abandons its open embrace of discussion and debate, we'll stop those payments and educate our son elsewhere...

Parents that reject liberalism and support CRT also have alternatives to battling over the content of schoolroom lessons. They can introduce their tykes to Ibram X. Kendi's Antiracist Baby Picture Book, marinate their kids in CRT-infused homeschooling, or send them to one of many private schools that offer willing families an education steeped in the ideology. That sounds like a tour through hell, to me, but if that's what they want their kids to learn, let them do so in peace, and without zero-sum arguments about what children are taught in shared institutions.

Then our kids can engage with each other's ideas in a society of diverse viewpoints. 

The curriculum wars were nasty enough when they were over competing editions of textbooks spun for conservative school boards in Texas and liberal educators in California, or about whether to call the United States a "democracy" or a "republic." Now that the debate is escalating over more fundamental differences involving the value of liberal ideas, individualism, and rationality, it's difficult to see how Americans of opposing viewpoints can share tax-funded schools that fall on one side or the other of the ideological divide. So let's not even try when we can encourage the growing exodus from public schools to alternatives of all sorts.

We don't need to wage the curriculum wars at all. Instead, let's pick where and how our children are educated, and encourage others to do the same. Then they can hash out their ideas in a society that remains open to disagreement and debate.

1776 over here, 1619 over there!  Advocates of Freedom over here, Collectivist Identitarians over there!  Let the Sorting Games begin.

Separate but Equal.

And it's a twofer really, because simultaneous to the ideological sorting, the privatization of charters and vouchers puts tax funds into profitmaking corporations and Christian academies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

* son of the Trump/ Murdoch/ Koch biographer / NY gubernatorial wannabe / infamous Lady Godiva stuntman, alas; not the original, who at least had a flair for the comic

[Terabith]

I think anti-intellectualism is a big part of all this, but I also wonder if the skyrocketing cost of college tuition also plays a role?  I mean, when I went to college, I was really big on "education for education's sake."  I felt like a liberal arts education would be enriching and broadening and make me a better citizen.  That's what my parents had told me, and they said that career education could wait for graduate school.  

But I'm looking at the costs of college tuition and the fact that I have no idea how to get my kids through college without loans, which absolutely petrifies me for them, and I'm thinking, "Maybe we should aim for self education of the liberal arts and focus college on what they want to do after they graduate?"  

[fairfarmhand]

22 minutes ago, Terabith said:

"Maybe we should aim for self education of the liberal arts and focus college on what they want to do after they graduate?"  

This is where we landed. No college just for college's sake any more. The $$$ aspect makes that impractical. College for career preparation because the investment is so great. 

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

This is where we landed. No college just for college's sake any more. The $$$ aspect makes that impractical. College for career preparation because the investment is so great. 

Right, and especially if you have a kid who is not tippy top stats and who isn't going to qualify for a lot of merit aid?  If she had ANY interest in any trade, I would be working hard towards that.....which would almost certainly involve a trades program at the community college.  But she wants to be a librarian.  A dyslexic librarian who struggles majorly with alphabetical order.  Trying to support that, but I have real questions as to whether or not it's a realistic career path, but she's surprised me so many times, so....

[fairfarmhand]

5 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Right, and especially if you have a kid who is not tippy top stats and who isn't going to qualify for a lot of merit aid?  If she had ANY interest in any trade, I would be working hard towards that.....which would almost certainly involve a trades program at the community college.  But she wants to be a librarian.  A dyslexic librarian who struggles majorly with alphabetical order.  Trying to support that, but I have real questions as to whether or not it's a realistic career path, but she's surprised me so many times, so....

And that career path is frustrating because it doesn't pay all that well, and yet, so many library systems want a MASTER'S degree. So, yeah, thousands in loans/college costs because aid is NOT what it used to be, especially if you are middle class (make too much for lower income scholarships, but not enough to cash flow the whole thing) to take a job that makes 50 to 60K.

 

ETA: We did look into this path for my second dd and it just felt silly to spend so much time and effort to barely make ends meet in our area. She chose something differnt. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by fairfarmhand

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

And that career path is frustrating because it doesn't pay all that well, and yet, so many library systems want a MASTER'S degree. So, yeah, thousands in loans/college costs because aid is NOT what it used to be, especially if you are middle class (make too much for lower income scholarships, but not enough to cash flow the whole thing) to take a job that makes 50 to 60K.

 

ETA: We did look into this path for my second dd and it just felt silly to spend so much time and effort to barely make ends meet in our area. She chose something differnt. 

Right.  I mean, she's only in tenth grade now, so our current plan is get a bachelor's in a field that you can be successful in.  Probably biology for her.  Start off at the community college because you have three free years, and work with one of the local liberal arts colleges to know what will transfer to them.  Live at home for undergrad.  And then see where you are.  I THINK there are some basically one year MLS degrees that can be completed online.  But, we will see.  

[Roadrunner]

Yes, here as well. It’s not anti intellectualism but finances. Why does anybody need a college diploma to work as a secretary? 
I am all for college but only for kids who actually want to  spend four years learning,  and not for kids who don’t really want to be there but see no other options.
 It’s a shame that we have inflated this system so much. 
If you are a learner, you can get real education for almost nothing (look at all those free courses from colleges). Sadly many kids aren’t interested in learning but just want a paper. There has to be an alternative path for them that doesn’t require their parents spending $$$$$. 

[Faith-manor]

The problem of costs is entirely the fault of politics on both sides. Here in Michigan, our state schools are basically private schools. They receive so little funding from the state, that they are not state schools, and their tuition/room/board reflect that as the inch closer and closer to being just as expensive as many of the better private schools in the state. The congress on the federal level did not adjust the FAFSA income levels to reflect the fact that tuition had outpaced wage increases by 500%. Thus tuition can be $15,000-16,000 a year at a regional not particularly well ranked "state university" and at an income level of $50,000 gross, financial aid falls off into the ditch! Nothing was ever adjusted to reflect this nor the fact that interest rates on savings accounts that were safe middle income and low earners were crap. Even if someone faithful saved for their entire child's life, at an income below six figures, there was no chance in hell of keeping up with tuition/room/board/fees and books. Minimum wage was kept artificially low so students could not work their way through school, thus the proliferation of the private student loan industry, and endless years of eating ramen and not entering the economy in a way that benefited the wild west capitalism that this country worships.

And of course the banking industry, friends of politicians everywhere, managed to make sure student loans could not be discharged in bankruptcy. They charge 8-24% interest on those loans and hound graduates to death. We need regulation, a lot of regulation, and colleges need their asses kicked about things running the academics on a skeleton crew of adjunct professors, and not offering coursework in a timely manner. I know tons of students at our state universities who are waiting an entire year to graduate for ONE class because, just one because the university refuses to offer it if it has less than 12 students, or hire someone to teach it, or waive the requirement, or substitute with a different class. The only programs that can be counted on to provide the coursework on a regular basis, in a timely manner, regardless of how many students sign up for it is engineering programs that are ABET certified because this kind of nitwit financial flim foam can cause them their certification causing a mass exodus of students, and nursing and nursing related medical programs which are regulated by medical boards and have to be timed with graduation and taking state board exams. Students get caught. If they drop out of school and go to work, their student loans come due and they haven't yet graduated. If they stay in school at least half time in order to keep their student loans deferred, they are paying a lot of extra money and likely their scholarships if they have them do not extend into that fifth year. And the interest is growing the whole time....banks love that!

Mostly we need to fire every yahoo in public office. Every one of them. But that is never going to happen. Sigh. And a subject for the political social group.

That sad at some point some of the retail, real estate, hospitality lobby are going to get pretty darn mad. As baby boomers who hold the bulk of the wealth die off, their kids who aren't as well off and become the primary spenders. Gen X is winding down their spending because savings for retirement hasn't kept pace with inflation and housing costs. Millennial don't have it, and Gen Z is just plain poor and has a long time to go before they have money to spend beyond survival except for those that went into tech and adopt a different lifestyle. Many of them do have jobs with good earning potential and benefits. But they also look at the world for what it is, how the top 2% is looting and pillaging the country, and they aren't buying into the same old same old. They aren't buying new cars even though they might be able to afford them. They are not getting in line to buy their first homes, and nice furniture, and having kids, and ....they are doing life differently and that differently does not produce never ending commodities growth for the wealthy elite like the Waltons. I guess maybe when that fur really hits the fan 10 years from now, someone might think, "Well duh, if we don't do anything to help these two generations, the economy is going to really bust and I'm only going to have a few hundred million dollars instead of billions." 😠

But mostly, in my area, anti-intellectualism is tied to "head in the sand" ideas about what is really out there for good jobs and how to become qualified for them, and hating "experts", hating having to say to their kids, " You really do have to study for your math test and read that novel." They are also very, very afraid that education will change their very narrow view of life. They are not willing to have that thinking challenged so the fewer people who read something different and might say, "Hmmmm.I don't think that is accurate" the better including their own kids. 

[Faith-manor]

51 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes, here as well. It’s not anti intellectualism but finances. Why does anybody need a college diploma to work as a secretary? 
I am all for college but only for kids who actually want to  spend four years learning,  and not for kids who don’t really want to be there but see no other options.
 It’s a shame that we have inflated this system so much. 
If you are a learner, you can get real education for almost nothing (look at all those free courses from colleges). Sadly many kids aren’t interested in learning but just want a paper. There has to be an alternative path for them that doesn’t require their parents spending $$$$$. 

Well, for one thing, a high school education isn't what it used to be and a lot of kids are not functionally or numerically literate. The employer cannot count on the person to be able to do even basic functions like writing a decent memo, quick report, scheduling appointments, anything. A good portion of students have been passed on without any learning in order to keep graduation rates tied since so many states tied school funding to graduation rates and high pass rates. I don't blame employers for choosing a higher level of education for the cut off. It shouldn't have to be that way, but my dad when he was in business was offering on job training in heating and air conditioning, and tuition reimbursement for licensing classes and exams but only two people with an A.A. or higher because most of the high school grads coming to him to apply couldn't even fill out the application without significant help. Older adults who camr to him still with no college nor no already attained trades licenses were viewed as likely somewhat illiterate thus their circumstances or lazy. No one likes it, but that is the employer bias that is there.

[Roadrunner]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Well, for one thing, a high school education isn't what it used to be and a lot of kids are not functionally or numerically literate. The employer cannot count on the person to be able to do even basic functions like writing a decent memo, quick report, scheduling appointments, anything. A good portion of students have been passed on without any learning in order to keep graduation rates tied since so many states tied school funding to graduation rates and high pass rates. I don't blame employers for choosing a higher level of education for the cut off. It shouldn't have to be that way, but my dad when he was in business was offering on job training in heating and air conditioning, and tuition reimbursement for licensing classes and exams but only two people with an A.A. or higher because most of the high school grads coming to him to apply couldn't even fill out the application without significant help. Older adults who camr to him still with no college nor no already attained trades licenses were viewed as likely somewhat illiterate thus their circumstances or lazy. No one likes it, but that is the employer bias that is there.

It’s obvious that the answer is fixing K-12 system and not pushing the problem down to colleges. Everybody benefits from this - kids, parents. 
I don’t understand why a kid who isn’t functionally or numerically literate (to use your words) is getting a high school diploma. 

[Faith-manor]

F or what it is worth, students have to be 24 in order for their parents' income to not count against them. There is NO recourse for any student whose parents are living but refuse to fill out FAFSA and many schools will not offer financial aid or grants to students whose parents failed in this regard. The only other ways to be independent are get married, have a child, be an orphan, age out of foster care. That's it.

I just read an article on CNN about a couple from UNC who really aren't a couple. They were friends who got married for financial aid. Their parents did not financially support them or assist them with college, but the EFC calculated from their parents' income meant they got zero financial aid. They went to college for two years on student loans, many tens of thousands of dollars in loans. Then they hit on getting married and sharing housing expenses. They got a boat load of financial aid and grants saving them, probably between the two $75,000-150,000 maybe more. They have graduated and are in the process of working out their divorce. Now that would NOT be palatable to many religious folks. I get that. But if you are not religious, this is something for your kids to consider. It is not illegal, like it is for immigration. There is NO statute of any kind against it. It really isn't unethical, and especially stacked against the "ethics" of a system that penalizes students for having parents who are not rock bottom poor and which created this financial nightmare to begin with. It is a very viable option and the couple can share living expenses just like roommates. They have no need to prove they have a romantic relationship.

So just saying.