Help give me a reality check re student and work

[Farrar]

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone and letting me double check with a more anonymous audience. Removing info since it's not my kid to share about.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Farrar

[Pam in CT]

Are you able to reach out to any of his prior teachers, who might be able to shed light on whether this has been the case for him in prior terms / years? 

If so, there could well be unmet learning needs.

If not... and this is materially different from what he's produced in similar circumstances in the past... I'd be concerned about possible mental health problems. 

 

[Farrar]

np

Edited November 20, 2021 by Farrar

[Acadie]

Have you ever tried specifying a minimum number of sentences or lines, say 4 or 5, to see what happens? Freewriting opens up most writers, but there may be some who need more explicit guidelines. I'm guessing that won't make much difference, but it could be worth a try. 

I'm not sure if this is a homeschool class, but when we were homeschooling I met a few kids who clearly had developmental or learning challenges that needed diagnosis and support while the parents perceived no issue and no need to do anything. It's painful to see a kid not getting what they need. 

 

[Acadie]

Do you need to grade or otherwise evaluate student work? Or do students simply get out of each class whatever they put in? 

[TheReader]

It could be a combination of things. 

--undiagnosed/unadmitted learning challenge (dyslexia, dysgraphia, processing speed issues, etc.)
--fear of putting things down on paper
--not able to think of anything worth writing (have you tried giving a writing prompt, with some level of direction to it, and see if he does better with that?)
--just plain goofing off
--feels like since the grammar/etc isn't graded, and this is just "free writing" with no limits/guidelines/requirements, feels like he is meeting the minimum and doing what he must, but otherwise uninterested in the assignment so just doesn't put forth effort since none is (seemingly, according to him) required

My 16 yr old has dyslexia, but could write more than 2 sentences in 20 mins, BUT works much better if/when given a topic, subject, prompt, etc. to start him off. If and when I've had him do "free writing" I get things like "well, I am writing in my journal. That is what I'm doing. It's boring. I hate writing in my journal. Also, I just lost The Game, which, if you don't know what that is, well, too bad. But now that I lost it once I will lose it every time I write in this thing. Okay, that is all." 

If given a prompt, he could do a better job BUT then he also will need time to think/plan before just putting pen to paper (so I guess I'm contradicting myself there.....what he writes will be better quality, but he'd likely use up most of the 20 mins trying to think of something/how to answer the prompt). 

His spelling won't be good; his grammar will be okay.  (and when I say he has dyslexia.....he didn't read at all until 10.5 yrs old.....he is now reading novels, though)

On the flip side, his oldest brother used to require someone literally sitting over him and forcing him to write, talking him through every.single.step. before he could get stuff down -- in his case it was perfectionism and not wanting to do anything badly, so he'd wait until he had it thought out enough in his head to be able to produce final draft quality writing before even starting. It was maddening. That does not sound like the case with the student you mentioned though. 

If mom insists it's not a learning disability, I think you are in the clear to start expecting more of him and grading accordingly. That will either push him to start taking it seriously, OR give you data to show mom that *something* is going on. 

 

[Farrar]

np

Edited November 20, 2021 by Farrar

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, TheReader said:

My 16 yr old has dyslexia, but could write more than 2 sentences in 20 mins, BUT works much better if/when given a topic, subject, prompt, etc. to start him off. If and when I've had him do "free writing" I get things like "well, I am writing in my journal. That is what I'm doing. It's boring. I hate writing in my journal. Also, I just lost The Game, which, if you don't know what that is, well, too bad. But now that I lost it once I will lose it every time I write in this thing. Okay, that is all." 

If given a prompt, he could do a better job BUT then he also will need time to think/plan before just putting pen to paper (so I guess I'm contradicting myself there.....what he writes will be better quality, but he'd likely use up most of the 20 mins trying to think of something/how to answer the prompt). 

There is always a prompt. Very clear, related to class discussion and readings. No penalty for going off topic, but there's always a directed topic that everyone else has plenty to say about.

[mumof6]

When my son was 14 he took 3 hours to write a sentence, but it was perfectly formed. By the end of the year it was one hour per sentence. He’s good at math/science and really struggles with writing. Poetry was better - amazing the quality of work he produced. At 16 he handed in only 3 paragraphs of a 5 paragraph essay. They were good, he was just sick of it and wanted to be done as it takes so long. Of course getting 40% on a 5 paragraph essay didn’t help and solidified his thought that he’s a failure. Life would be good right now if not for the torture of the compulsory English class.

[PeterPan]

To me the conspicuous thing is that when you try to talk to him he "defers." Language issues could cause a scenario like this. 

It's pretty obvious SOMETHING is going on and that the ostrich parents aren't catching on. They're used to him and they know he's doing his best. 

If this is a free write, does the length matter? 

Is there any step within your reach (not requiring intervention services, more like tech or accommodation or EF supports or whatever) that would make the task more accessible for him? For instance, receiving the questions and writing prompts AHEAD of time would be a normal 504 type accommodation for low processing speed. So if you give him the free write prompt a week ahead to let him prethink, does it go better? If he's allowed to use dictation software or type, does it go better? 

[Farrar]

np

Edited November 20, 2021 by Farrar

[Farrar]

np

Edited November 20, 2021 by Farrar

[MEmama]

Free writing was torture for my DS. He would have been that student at the beginning of high school. He wouldn’t have been able to complete the assignment nor articulate the root of his struggles. 

I do suspect he has ADD and his there is no question to me that his thought processes aren’t as linear as most, which can make writing difficult/ impossible, particularly if he is disinterested in the subject or if the assignment is too loose. At the same time, he shines at coding and has been given high praise for his unique approaches. 
 

I will say by the end of high school he had turned into a pretty good and sometimes very strong writer. In assignments with strict parameters, he comes into his own. His voice comes through and his passion is clear. But in assignments with fewer boundaries— share your feelings about/ what do you think the author…/ etc, he struggles to understand what information or position he is supposed to convey.
 

Perhaps your student would be better served assigned a modified version of your prompt, if at all possible?

[hshibley]

I think I would try talking to the mom mom to mom and put the teacher hat aside. If the boy is 16 in 2 years he’s an adult and needs to get along in the adult world. What are their goals? What are they planning for him to do after he’s 18? Work? College? Either way he needs help to function as an adult in two years. If he’s the oldest in the family they may really be completely clueless as to how atypical he is. If that’s the case is there a way to show her his work compared to other students work in your class while keeping the identity of the other students private. 

[MEmama]

3 minutes ago, hshibley said:

I think I would try talking to the mom mom to mom and put the teacher hat aside. If the boy is 16 in 2 years he’s an adult and needs to get along in the adult world. What are their goals? What are they planning for him to do after he’s 18? Work? College? Either way he needs help to function as an adult in two years. If he’s the oldest in the family they may really be completely clueless as to how atypical he is. If that’s the case is there a way to show her his work compared to other students work in your class while keeping the identity of the other students private. 

That’s a good idea if it’s possible.

I often wished we could have compared DS’s writing with that of his peers. I think it would have helped us and him identify where in the process something was missing, and whether or not our expectations were off track.

[prairiewindmomma]

Free writing is a crazy thing. I think I would reframe expectations and provide clear examples and framework so that you can provide objective feedback to parents.

I hate IEW for a variety reasons but one very good thing it does is provide a framework of expectations. If you are wanting something done in a set timeframe, I would provide a checklist of what you want done and see if he can meet that. If he can’t, then you have a very clear checklist you can staple to the top of the assignment with the grading and provide that to mom. Mom can then choose to keep her head in the sand, but she has been put on notice specifically as to what is going on.

ETA: framework would include things like introductory sentence, transition words, three supporting ideas, conclusion that reflects the introduction, etc. I hate how formulaic that is, but it sounds like that may be needed here for this kid.

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by prairiewindmomma

[busymama7]

My kids for the most part do not do well with free writing.  I don't know what kind of class this is exactly, but my hesitant writers, including those with diagnosed dyslexia, have THRIVED with IEW.   Yeah I've heard all the arguments about formulated, stilted writing but the reality is many kids need that kind of support. I use it for 2-3 years max and have much success including a daughter with a creative writing college degree who started publishing books at age 15.  Used for longer I think can be a problem but as a method for teaching HOW to write for kids who just can't sit and produce writing, it's fabulous.   I would personally want to try that style with him first to see if it's just the open assignment that's the problem but I don't know if that's possible.  

[Lecka]

I think it sounds like there might be an ethical question of if you can continue with him thinking he has not made progress?

 

Here is my thought on that — I have a child with special needs and sometimes parents get into a deep denial.  
 

They also may truly not be aware of what other kids the same age are doing.  Or, they perceive basic expectations as really advanced and high-achieving.

 

My opinion is — you can’t make someone not be in denial.  It’s just not possible.  There is no way to do it.  
 

I think to me it would be ethical to continue with this student, because you can’t make the parents do other things.  
 

I think to me the feedback you have provided sounds fine. 
 

I don’t think it’s a good situation but I don’t think it sounds like he is being poorly served by you.  
 

Right now my special needs child does work that he is happy with and he’s not aware it is not the same level of work.  He has the opportunity to know it but he doesn’t know it, or he doesn’t know it yet.  For him that is part of having special needs, but in its way it’s good because he puts in a good effort and doesn’t have the self-esteem issues that his peers have who are aware that they are working on a lower level.  
 

Edit:  I have also known people who pulled their kids from public school when a teacher had concerns or there was talk of an eval.  Some people just do not want any part of this and/or can’t handle it.  And there are pros and cons to everything, and life is unpredictable.  Kids in this situation can do well!  Or — it can seem like they are not in a horrible situation compared to the other path.  I used to doubt that, but I have seen it.  

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Lecka

[MooCow]

Does the student involved like you? I only ask because if it had been one of my sons and they didn't like the teacher, neither one of them would have put out hardly anything. 

[prairiewindmomma]

One more thought…my kid with a writing disability does get graded to grade level expectations. He has an accommodation that allows him to be graded for content, and not length, but it’s not like he can turn in 4th grade level work for high school English. That’s not how grading with a learning disability works.

If in fact he could only produce 4th grade level work, credit would not be issued for the class, or it would go on his diploma with a modification notification, which is kind of the same thing as far as colleges are concerned in accepting high school level work. 
 

My point is that the ethical issue Lecka is bringing up and your point about grading is handled elsewhere in the world with a pretty common pattern. I think you have good grounds for not continuing him on if you choose to do so.

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, MooCow said:

Does the student involved like you? I only ask because if it had been one of my sons and they didn't like the teacher, neither one of them would have put out hardly anything. 

How would that have functioned if your son was in public high school?

[MooCow]

Well my youngest is in public high school now. He also has a 504. So, if he did that now, his super amazing wonderful guidance counselor would probably take him out separately from the class and do a writing session with him. 

However, if it happened when he was new to public school, the teacher probably would get nothing out of him. Even when I  homeschooled he detested writing. Of course, we had him privately tested before he was put back into public education. I knew there was something wrong. It kind of does sound like maybe this Mom is just clueless......my dh didn't really believe me until he had the report in his hand.

Edited November 19, 2021 by MooCow
Fixed a word

[EKS]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but is he using a keyboard or a pencil to generate this work?  

Have you explained to the kid that what he is turning in is unacceptable and given an example of the sort of thing you expect?

Another possibility is that you could sit with him and talk him through the assignment (after showing him the sort of thing you expect).  I don't mean for you to do this in front of others or every single time, but maybe once or twice after class or whatever.  Doing this may help you understand better where the hang up is.

[MooCow]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but is he using a keyboard or a pencil to generate this work?  

Have you explained to the kid that what he is turning in is unacceptable and given an example of the sort of thing you expect?

Another possibility is that you could sit with him and talk him through the assignment (after showing him the sort of thing you expect).  I don't mean for you to do this in front of others or every single time, but maybe once or twice after class or whatever.  Doing this may help you understand better where the hang up is.

Yes this. My youngest has horrible penmanship and typing on a computer definitely helped him.

[cintinative]

I don't have any real advice but just wanted to thank you for caring about this kid and trying to help.

I want to echo the "parents don't know what they don't know" sentiment.  I agree that showing a comparison of his work with another "average" student might help the parent see what you are seeing.  Since there is no grading, all you can really do is demonstrate that his work is not typical.

A few years ago I had several non-neurotypical kids in a co-op class and the parents just weren't providing adequate support.  After many emails and exhortations I had to just let it be what it was going to be. I wasn't paid, and I only had so much time to give to the class.  I tried to be as kind and encouraging to the kids as I could, but as I wasn't the parent, there wasn't a lot I could do in a once a week 50 minute class.

 

[SoCal_Bear]

I'm not a professional teacher. I have only taught co-op classes as a volunteer. What I did was redact samples and showed the parent what the question was, what their student submitted and what were examples of what what other students have submitted that met your expectations. I redacted the examples. I also have said a typical response would be in paragraph form with intro, conclusion, X of supporting paragraphs with a minimum of X number of sentences with would have X number of supporting points.

That being said, I don't think that it is appropriate for parents to enroll students in classes where there is a huge mismatch for the minimum abilities required. I would be curious to know if said parent says about what is being produced versus what the expectations are. I think it would make a huge difference for the parent to actually see in black and white the discrepency in what is being submitted.

Edited November 19, 2021 by calbear

[Acadie]

Sorry, double post. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Acadie

[Corraleno]

32 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Struggles to follow directions and complete all parts of an assignment, even with a grade is involved.

This, in addition to all the other info, makes me think there is definitely some kind of LD going on. Dyslexia and/or ADD often come in a "package" with slow processing speed and poor working memory. My son has the whole package, and it's a function of the fact that he thinks in images not words — his processing speed and working memory are fine for visual/spatial information, but words are not his "first language" so he really struggles with writing. He is an incredibly slow writer — like he will literally spend 4-5 hours writing a one-page summary of the week's readings for a college class. He would be paralyzed by a free-writing assignment. The more structured the assignment is, the easier it is for him to write. He is actually an extremely good writer, as judged by the finished product, and he always gets high As on written assignments. But the amount of time he spends on them is insane, and he only invests that time because he's extremely motivated and cares about doing well. If he didn't care about grades, and he was sitting in a co-op class as a teen, he'd probably be turning in 2 sentences in 20 minutes.

If I were in your shoes, I would provide the kid with much more structure, and I would really urge his parents to get him a proper evaluation. A lot of parents have no idea what LDs look like, especially if they're subtle and not causing behavior problems, and they're just in denial that anything could be "wrong" with their kid. I've even heard parents say they "don't want to put a label" on a kid with LDs — as if having the kid label himself as stupid because his LD is unacknowledged is better. It's unkind and unfair to refuse to evaluate a student who may have an LD, because it deprives them of the right to accommodations, the right understand how their own brain works, and the ability to develop work-arounds that will allow them to be successful adults in the real world.

 

[maize]

Sounds to me like executive function and/or learning disability of some kind. I would drop the grading, and offer feedback with at least twice as much positive as constructive feedback.

Edited November 19, 2021 by maize

[maize]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Length doesn't matter, but using the time does. I can't tell if he's using the time or just jotting down the absolute minimum he thinks he can get away with.

No supports. Homeschooled kid, informal family run co-op. 

I've suggested dictation software and parents scribing. Crickets.

My kid with dysgraphia wouldn't benefit from dictation software or scribing because he actually has even more trouble expressing himself verbally than he does with writing. There's some complex issue there tangled up in language processing and anxiety. The anxiety is not expressed in any way that looks like anxiety to most people, but it is very real and gets in the way of so much in his life.

[theelfqueen]

Not that this addresses the specifics which I agree are concerning.... but from my experience in homeschool co-ops, parents who choose to homeschool are often pretty intuitive learners...Has he been taught pre-writing skills like brainstorming techniques, listing, Webs/clustering or mind mapping , outlines ...  perhaps the parents can be encouraged to explore some more basic writing skills? A lot of people find writing a fairly easy extension of speech and don't realize that some of these things need to be explicitly taught - maybe his parents fall into that category? (Thank you @susanwisebauer for teaching my kid outlining more explicitly in WWS1 -- made a huge difference!) Maybe share some videos or articles on that ? Or nudge the class in the direction of the Crash Course Study Skills videos? Maybe just seeing what falls within the norm from such sources will make them more aware that his output isnt there? 

Edited November 19, 2021 by theelfqueen

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

One of my issues here is that I don't want to play armchair psychologist.

Ironically, a free write is one of the things a psych will do to assess writing difficulties. 

What you're really asking is what you do when it's glaringly obvious a co-op student is discrepant from the others. If it were the ps you'd refer for evals, no biggee. I don't see where "grading' makes much difference. Is this a *let it go* kinda thing? ie. hard to watch but not your problem? Is this a kick him out because he's not able to do the work? The co-op has a policy on referrals or how to handle suspected disabilities?

It almost sounds like a hard to watch, let it go kinda scenario. What would you do if this were an acquaintance/friend? I'm pretty hard in the make evals happen camp, so this happens to me regularly where I'm seeing stuff and can do nothing. We just had a situation come up and the lack of evals was making extreme stress in the family. I didn't have the standing to say much, tried, and just had to let it go. It's really hard, because we know where that goes. But sometimes, if we have no standing, that's all that happens, we just let it go and let them sort it out eventually for themselves.

I would politely and clearly mention something (here are your resources, here is the data on the ways he's struggling) and then go you know like go out to eat, take a cruise, brain bleach.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I can't tell if he's using the time or just jotting down the absolute minimum he thinks he can get away with.

I would assume there's a disability because the peer pressure alone would be pretty motivating. Assume he would if he could. Don't overthink it. If he could, he probably would.

[Emba]

38 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

How would that have functioned if your son was in public high school?

I imagine like it did for my daughter last year - classes in which she liked the teacher were A/B grades, and she was always on the brink of failing classes in which she didn’t like the teacher . Not even dislike, just that she didn’t care to put any effort into impressing them.

[PeterPan]

22 minutes ago, calbear said:

That being said, I don't think that it is appropriate for parents to enroll students in classes where there is a huge mismatch for the minimum abilities required. I would be curious to know if said parent says about what is being produced versus what the expectations are. I think it would make a huge difference for the parent to actually see in black and white the discrepency in what is being submitted.

You're actually bringing up the bigger point that allowing a student in, if he's not able to grow through the class, allows the parents to *delay* getting appropriate intervention and actually harms the dc. Op can look at how much of the class is a fit. To me it's perfectly fine to say you know, Johnny isn't able to access most of what is in this class and it's not turning out to be a good fit, here are resources. But if it's only the free writes, I'd try some strategies (prompts ahead, etc.) and see what happens.

[Acadie]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I actually don't give grades in the class. But as a requirement for his return to the class this year I told the mom I wanted to try giving him a grade. Because he typically would do an essay assignment and give me two unreadable sentences and then mark it complete. I told the mom, I've had this kid for two years, I think I've failed him. We have to try something else. This has upped his effort a good bit, but he's still struggling across the board. D in class overall. He has done every assignment on time. Struggles to follow directions and complete all parts of an assignment, even with a grade is involved.

Basically, I'm second guessing the grading thing. What if I'm just penalizing him for a learning disability? In fact, that's really what I believe. But mom refuses to see that there's any issue. Kid seems oblivious to the possibility that there's anything wrong too. I just don't know what else to do. I thought maybe sending grades would help. Would say, look, kid is not at the same level as everyone else. But now I'm like... maybe this is just cruel.

I think there are a few issues that are worth treating separately. The number one issue is he getting what he needs, and what's in your power to support him and his family in this regard? Ultimately the choices his parents make and how his challenges may impact his adult life are not under your control, so I think all you can do is make another good faith attempt or two, then let it go. 

Separate issues are whether you continue to grade him and whether you advance him in the class. I agree with you that if the feedback of a grade is not doing what you hoped, and other students aren't being graded, I'd stop giving him grades. Does he contribute positively to the class, and do you think it's a good experience for him in some ways, even though you're not seeing much growth in his writing? If it's not a problem for you and the other students to have him in the class and he wants to stay, I'd advance him. It's possible that he's learning valuable things about discussion, social interaction, language, ideas and arguments that aren't reflected in his writing. You may be doing more good than you realize, just not in ways you can see in his writing. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Right, it was a rhetorical question. Of course there is a consequence for not writing for a teacher you don’t like. My point is that you shouldn’t pass a kid who isn’t writing in a class just because he doesn’t like you—there are consequences to choices like that.

 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

I don't want to penalize him

I clearly should have read more before I posted. I am replacing my original post. 

I think that, at 16 in a situation where parent denial is a big problem, giving accommodations without a diagnosis is really problematic. While strategies like scribing might help with the immediate goal of showing what he knows, they also can mask the issue.  The reality is that 16 - 18 isn't long enough to remediate this big of a gap, so documenting things now so that he can be eligible for accommodations in further education, or employment is critical.  Accessing supports after high school, without documented support in high school is much more difficult.  

I think that if you stopped holding him to age appropriate expectations, and grading him based on those expectations, you'd be doing him a disservice, because helping him and his parents gain clarity about the situation needs to be the highest priority.  

Edited November 19, 2021 by Baseballandhockey

[Lecka]

One, I also think it would be ethical to not continue with this student.  I think it would be ethical either way.  
 

Two, for those people who think that it is possible to share information with a parent to cause them not to be in denial, this is not always possible.

I have seen times where I know something was shared, and it’s like — they just end up thinking that something else happened that wasn’t what happened.

 

For example — the teacher says “I’m concerned, here’s examples.”  And then maybe for a few hours or a day the parent has heard this information.  And then it just goes back to “the teacher said something really minor and everything is really okay.”  
 

This is just something I have seen happen.

 

Giving someone evidence can’t “make” them see it and not be in denial.

 

And it’s not even always exactly denial, it can also just be a very different idea about things.

 

But it is truly something some parents just do not deal with.

 

There are also people who will just get mad at the person who shares the information and thinks this person is just mean or “doesn’t know anything about kids” or various other things.  
 

And these are all things that can happen and it is a problem with the person sharing information (in various situations) so there are always people to say “how dare someone say that to you.”  
 

So the bottom line is — I think it is ethical to share what it is appropriate to share!!!!!!!!

 

But sharing the information does not mean that the parent will take it in and change actions according to the information.  That is just not something that always happens.  
 

It’s hard too when a person wanting to bring something up starts a conversation with “do you have an concerns about such-and-such,” which is a common way to bring it up tactfully, and the parent does not see any concerns whatsoever.  
 

And this does happen!

 

And it is just — I don’t think there is anything that an outside person can “do” about it because it is the parents’ decision.  

[Dmmetler]

This sounds like C. In his case, he can produce pretty well if he can dictate it first and either use text to speech or have someone scribe an outline, and then he fleshes it out, but he simply can't seem to produce on paper without that intermediate step. He is in his first year of public school and was placed in a special RTI group for writing as a precursor to an IEP. I'm not surprised that's where it ends up, because honestly, I've known, and his mom has known, that his writing skills are way below where they should be for years. Vision therapy and intensive phonics got him reading at grade level, but writing just isn't there. It really feels like his writing mechanics didn't start developing at all until he got reading down, and since he's only gotten reading down in the last couple of years, he hasn't had time to catch up yet. 

[Lecka]

I also think that in a public school, there are some responsibilities assumed by the school, that in homeschooling are assumed by the parent.

A public school would be remiss in many ways for a situation, that I do not think is equivalent for someone teaching outsourced classes to a homeschool student.

I also think a teacher for outsourced homeschool classes has many freedoms in providing feedback that would be more regulated by a public school.

So overall — I don’t think it’s appropriate to equate too much to a public school.  
 

I do think it is good to know how things are handled in other situations, though!

 

But the fact is the homeschooling parent has not selected those situations.  
 

And I think that is okay!

[Lecka]

I also think — if there has been communication, and the communication hasn’t gotten through as desired, then somehow a grade is going to be the thing that works?

I think it could, it is possible, sometimes it is the time when something will click with people for various reasons.

But a low grade can just mean the parents say “wow, she is a hard grader,” and it doesn’t *mean* what it is supposed to mean if the intention is — see that there is something going on that needs to be addressed or changed or acknowledged. 

 

Parents who may not have had good grades in school are a lot more likely to think “a D is passing, so that’s good” or things like that.  There is no agreed-on standard where a D means a parent thinks something is wrong and wonders what it is.  
 

It is just — while I hope it would be effective, there is no guarantee that it will be effective.

 

Edit:  I mean, I think it is a good suggestion.  I do think it’s a good suggestion.  

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Lecka

[Drama Llama]

8 minutes ago, Lecka said:

One, I also think it would be ethical to not continue with this student.  I think it would be ethical either way.  
 

Two, for those people who think that it is possible to share information with a parent to cause them not to be in denial, this is not always possible.

I have seen times where I know something was shared, and it’s like — they just end up thinking that something else happened that wasn’t what happened.

 

For example — the teacher says “I’m concerned, here’s examples.”  And then maybe for a few hours or a day the parent has heard this information.  And then it just goes back to “the teacher said something really minor and everything is really okay.”  
 

This is just something I have seen happen.

 

Giving someone evidence can’t “make” them see it and not be in denial.

 

And it’s not even always exactly denial, it can also just be a very different idea about things.

 

But it is truly something some parents just do not deal with.

 

There are also people who will just get mad at the person who shares the information and thinks this person is just mean or “doesn’t know anything about kids” or various other things.  
 

And these are all things that can happen and it is a problem with the person sharing information (in various situations) so there are always people to say “how dare someone say that to you.”  
 

So the bottom line is — I think it is ethical to share what it is appropriate to share!!!!!!!!

 

But sharing the information does not mean that the parent will take it in and change actions according to the information.  That is just not something that always happens.  
 

It’s hard too when a person wanting to bring something up starts a conversation with “do you have an concerns about such-and-such,” which is a common way to bring it up tactfully, and the parent does not see any concerns whatsoever.  
 

And this does happen!

 

And it is just — I don’t think there is anything that an outside person can “do” about it because it is the parents’ decision.  

I agree that it's possible that nothing @Farrar says or does will change the parental behavior during the time that he's in her class.

But I can also say, as someone who works with kids with disabilities in this age group, that when kids or young adults "hit a wall" so to speak, it's important to have an accurate paper trail to look back on.  In many states, the differences in supports for adults whose disabilities were evident before 18, and those whose disabilities were acquired after 18 are substantial.

[BusyMom5]

If in your shoes, I would ask myself what my role was, and then decide how he fit into that.   It sounds like you teach a course,  but you aren't an official grader or transcript writer for the course,  its not accredited in any way.  That's how our co-op works.  I would provide assignments and structure,  but grades were given by parents and the level of participation varies by family.  It can be really frustrating to watch how some families homeschool (or rather DON'T).  In my homeschool,  my goal is college readiness or whatever my kids plan for after high school.  I know some families that barely teach Algebra- and I cannot count how many times I've heard that all they really need to know us how to balance a checkbook - as if interest rates are too confusing so why bother.   The boy may get a lot out of the instruction you give and the conversation,  even if its not coming across on his writing. 

I agree that he probably has an undiagnosed LD, but if moms not on board with testing or even exploring that, I don't see how you get him the right kind of help.  Rethink what your role is- do you just want to be available for support?  As the parent of a kid who suffered for years with an undiagnosed LD, getting a diagnosis and knowing she wasn't  "dumb" was so empowering for her.   Really think about how you want him to see his writing ability.  Can he converse about the topic?   Is it just writing, comprehension, lack of ability to focus in the classroom?  So many variables.  If it were me, at 16 I'd want to focus on what he can do vs what he can't.  I'd want to talk directly to him about ways to work around writing.   What about having them write an e-mail or other type assignment that would be more direct and business related?  

If his goals include college, he's going to have to get more help.  If his goals are more hands-on careers, then he may not need extra help.  Either way, I think its a good idea to let him know lots of people struggle with writing.  

[MEmama]

40 minutes ago, Lecka said:

One, I also think it would be ethical to not continue with this student.  I think it would be ethical either way.  
 

Two, for those people who think that it is possible to share information with a parent to cause them not to be in denial, this is not always possible.

I have seen times where I know something was shared, and it’s like — they just end up thinking that something else happened that wasn’t what happened.

 

For example — the teacher says “I’m concerned, here’s examples.”  And then maybe for a few hours or a day the parent has heard this information.  And then it just goes back to “the teacher said something really minor and everything is really okay.”  
 

This is just something I have seen happen.

 

Giving someone evidence can’t “make” them see it and not be in denial.

 

And it’s not even always exactly denial, it can also just be a very different idea about things.

 

But it is truly something some parents just do not deal with.

 

There are also people who will just get mad at the person who shares the information and thinks this person is just mean or “doesn’t know anything about kids” or various other things.  
 

And these are all things that can happen and it is a problem with the person sharing information (in various situations) so there are always people to say “how dare someone say that to you.”  
 

So the bottom line is — I think it is ethical to share what it is appropriate to share!!!!!!!!

 

But sharing the information does not mean that the parent will take it in and change actions according to the information.  That is just not something that always happens.  
 

It’s hard too when a person wanting to bring something up starts a conversation with “do you have an concerns about such-and-such,” which is a common way to bring it up tactfully, and the parent does not see any concerns whatsoever.  
 

And this does happen!

 

And it is just — I don’t think there is anything that an outside person can “do” about it because it is the parents’ decision.  

Sometimes all of that is true, but sometimes parents simply don’t know what they don’t know.

It took until the hellscape that was public high school during Covid for me to realize DS might have ADD. Looking back, it seems really clear— I did always feel that something was off or different, but DH was having none of it and DS was thriving in most ways so I never pursued it. I’m kicking myself now, of course, because now he will need to seek out help on his own as an adult and that’s…well.. really hard for him to do. 
 

I very much wish a teacher or anyone credible had mentioned it as a possibility. I’ve never seen ADD in a highly functional kid— it’s nothing like his friends who were diagnosed with ADHD— so I couldn’t have known to look for it (Aspergers had been mentioned by a librarian when he was young so I did go down that rabbit trail but it didn’t seem to quite fit—ADD of course shares many of the same traits, but I didn’t know about it). 
 

All that to say, is that if Farrar has suspicions it wouldn’t be out of line to share them. The parents might very well reject them,  but  equally it’s possible they might open their eyes. 

[kbutton]

On 11/19/2021 at 10:18 AM, Farrar said:

I actually don't give grades in the class. But as a requirement for his return to the class this year I told the mom I wanted to try giving him a grade. Because he typically would do an essay assignment and give me two unreadable sentences and then mark it complete. I told the mom, I've had this kid for two years, I think I've failed him. We have to try something else. This has upped his effort a good bit, but he's still struggling across the board. D in class overall. He has done every assignment on time. Struggles to follow directions and complete all parts of an assignment, even with a grade is involved.

(Removed for privacy since we've moved on.)

On 11/19/2021 at 10:24 AM, PeterPan said:

To me the conspicuous thing is that when you try to talk to him he "defers." Language issues could cause a scenario like this. 

It's pretty obvious SOMETHING is going on and that the ostrich parents aren't catching on. They're used to him and they know he's doing his best. 

I agree.

On 11/19/2021 at 10:25 AM, Farrar said:

One of my issues here is that I don't want to play armchair psychologist. I'm not qualified to diagnose this kid. I have all kinds of suspicions every which way to Sunday. (Like, is he on the Spectrum? I sure think it's possible... among a lot of other things! But do I know? I have no clue. None.) But if the parents are saying, what, no, not our kid, kid is fine, kid just needs a bit more academic practice, we've had an overwhelming few years (they have - nothing massive, but there's some busy family stuff happening where they know he's maybe fallen through the cracks). And it's like... maybe I'm wrong. In which case... I don't even know. Sigh.

You're not likely wrong. You aren't responsible to fix it or even pinpoint it, but if you can put words to it, HE might be relieved, which is why I wrote a small book about my son. Feel free to steal my words if any of it seems applicable. 

23 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Free writing is a crazy thing. I think I would reframe expectations and provide clear examples and framework so that you can provide objective feedback to parents.

I hate IEW for a variety reasons but one very good thing it does is provide a framework of expectations. If you are wanting something done in a set timeframe, I would provide a checklist of what you want done and see if he can meet that. If he can’t, then you have a very clear checklist you can staple to the top of the assignment with the grading and provide that to mom. Mom can then choose to keep her head in the sand, but she has been put on notice specifically as to what is going on.

ETA: framework would include things like introductory sentence, transition words, three supporting ideas, conclusion that reflects the introduction, etc. I hate how formulaic that is, but it sounds like that may be needed here for this kid.

People are providing lots of advice like this that could be good. I would note that the problem could be deeper still, like it was for my son. But trying things like this gives data, and data leads to identifying the actual problem. It's possible that the parents aren't seeking help because they can't articulate what's wrong, don't know where to get it, can't afford it, have been burned, etc.

23 hours ago, busymama7 said:

My kids for the most part do not do well with free writing.  I don't know what kind of class this is exactly, but my hesitant writers, including those with diagnosed dyslexia, have THRIVED with IEW.   Yeah I've heard all the arguments about formulated, stilted writing but the reality is many kids need that kind of support. I use it for 2-3 years max and have much success including a daughter with a creative writing college degree who started publishing books at age 15.  Used for longer I think can be a problem but as a method for teaching HOW to write for kids who just can't sit and produce writing, it's fabulous.   I would personally want to try that style with him first to see if it's just the open assignment that's the problem but I don't know if that's possible.  

My son wouldn't have done well with IEW, but I agree that it can work for some kids. A dyslexic-ish young lady I know was helped greatly by it. She needed to play with other people's words and thoughts before trying to come up with her own and then manipulate them. It really made things click to do that.

23 hours ago, EKS said:

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but is he using a keyboard or a pencil to generate this work?  

Have you explained to the kid that what he is turning in is unacceptable and given an example of the sort of thing you expect?

Another possibility is that you could sit with him and talk him through the assignment (after showing him the sort of thing you expect).  I don't mean for you to do this in front of others or every single time, but maybe once or twice after class or whatever.  Doing this may help you understand better where the hang up is.

This would be generous, but if it helped, what a relief. And again, it gives data. Trying to describe something you can't quite see is maddening! It's not your job, but if you can help something become clear, that's a gift.

22 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I clearly should have read more before I posted. I am replacing my original post. 

I think that, at 16 in a situation where parent denial is a big problem, giving accommodations without a diagnosis is really problematic. While strategies like scribing might help with the immediate goal of showing what he knows, they also can mask the issue.  The reality is that 16 - 18 isn't long enough to remediate this big of a gap, so documenting things now so that he can be eligible for accommodations in further education, or employment is critical.  Accessing supports after high school, without documented support in high school is much more difficult.  

I think that if you stopped holding him to age appropriate expectations, and grading him based on those expectations, you'd be doing him a disservice, because helping him and his parents gain clarity about the situation needs to be the highest priority.  

Very valid points, but I do think that if the issue is narrow, and he's bright, it's possible he could do well enough to access additional help and move on to college in a less traditional path with some supports. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by kbutton

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Looking back, it seems really clear— I did always feel that something was off or different, but DH was having none of it and DS was thriving in most ways so I never pursued it.

I’ve never seen ADD in a highly functional kid— it’s nothing like his friends who were diagnosed with ADHD— so I couldn’t have known to look for it

Both of these are extremely typical scenarios. Sub in other LDs/ASD for ADD, and it's all still true. Most of the time, these kids who have flown under the radar turn out to be gifted.

This could be the only area in which the kid *seems* to struggle, but once it's seen, it starts to be obvious in other places in subtle ways.

We need a lot more information out there about what 2e/high functioning _________ looks like to catch these kids earlier. They often are relieved to know that they aren't defective for finding things harder than they should be, and often they respond optimally to intervention.

[elegantlion]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

Free writing was torture for my DS. He would have been that student at the beginning of high school. He wouldn’t have been able to complete the assignment nor articulate the root of his struggles. 

I do suspect he has ADD and his there is no question to me that his thought processes aren’t as linear as most, which can make writing difficult/ impossible, particularly if he is disinterested in the subject or if the assignment is too loose. At the same time, he shines at coding and has been given high praise for his unique approaches. 
 

I will say by the end of high school he had turned into a pretty good and sometimes very strong writer. In assignments with strict parameters, he comes into his own. His voice comes through and his passion is clear. But in assignments with fewer boundaries— share your feelings about/ what do you think the author…/ etc, he struggles to understand what information or position he is supposed to convey.
 

Perhaps your student would be better served assigned a modified version of your prompt, if at all possible?

This was my son as well, who also excels at writing programming code. For my son, it was a combination of anxiety, stubborness, and apathy. If he didn't care about the subject of the assignment, he wouldn't write a thing. He is very logical, great argumentation skills, yet everything thing he writes is super concise. He struggled in college to reach minimum word counts, logic saved him. 

This child your talking about, not discounting learning disabilities, may feel apathetic about these assignments and is polite enough to not say so. 

Writing was the biggest challenge for my ds, plus the biggest challenge of my teaching him. One thing I think he struggled with was audience, too. 

[SKL]

One of my kids will do this.  She is a bright and otherwise decent student, but she finds writing for teachers super stressful.  She has everything and nothing to say.

I can relate to the feeling that this is a big opportunity to be judged.  I took a writing class in college where expectations were pretty open-ended, other than that we had to complete 8 papers.  But we were expected to share our writing with the class.  I was a good writer, and I intended to comply, but I never felt comfortable opening my writing up to class discussion.  So I would write and discard and write and discard.  I ended up submitting all 8 papers on the last day of school and taking a B.

As for what you can do, some suggestions:

• If possible, share a time that it was hard for you to think of something to write.
• Have the kids read a short passage before they start writing.  Reading is often a natural lead-in to the kind of thinking needed for writing.
• Offer prompts that are structured enough to give some guidance as to what to write.
• Require some minimum output quantity that is reasonable for the age/grade.
• Never require this kind of work to be shared with anyone other than you.

[Drama Llama]

46 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

Very valid points, but I do think that if the issue is narrow, and he's bright, it's possible he could do well enough to access additional help and move on to college in a less traditional path with some supports. 

Absolutely!  But having documentation that his disability existed before HS graduation is going to be key, in many places to access those supports in college.