How do you teach the truth about beloved American holidays?

[Terabith]

My niece and nephew are three, and my sister just posted a video of them in their day care's Thanksgiving pageant, with children dressed up in the traditional construction paper Pilgrim and Indian and turkey costumes.  It was cute and also sort of horrifying that in 2021, we still have construction paper feather Indians at Thanksgiving depictions.  So I've been thinking about how do you talk about "tricky holidays" with young children?  I mean, they're three.  I think cultural genocide is probably not the right approach.  I struggled with this when I was homeschooling my own children, and when they were really little, I just said it was "a day of giving thanks." When they were around kindergarten/ first grade age, I tried to get books that were respectful and historically accurate.  But I've been reading about books recommended by American Indians in Children's Literature, and apparently I did fairly poorly, but in my defense, there are very few books about Thanksgiving that have been deemed acceptable.  My take away is really that honestly, Thanksgiving should be a day of lament and fasting, that it should be called Thanks Taking, and that any literature that imagines what a historical figure might have thought or said is not acceptable.  Which....I mean, I feel seriously conflicted about Thanksgiving, but if we can't use books or ourselves imagine what it was like to live in another time or culture, it feels sorta like we might as well give up trying to teach at that point.  

So how do we do this?  How do we balance hard historical truths with beloved American folktale holidays that have developed mythology around them?  

I mean, I can imagine doing something like saying:  We have two groups of people, the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag tribe.  Here's how both of them might have experienced this.  And explicitly talk about history being written by the winners.  I don't know if that would go over in a public school first grade classroom though.  

How do you guys handle this?  Obviously, Thanksgiving is on my mind, but it's certainly not the only situation like this, where the American folklore does not mesh with historical reality.  

Edited November 15, 2021 by Terabith

[fairfarmhand]

We watched the Squanto movie. It portrays some of the yucky parts of that part of our history. There's tons of artistic license, but the truth is there. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I think it’s reasonable and valid to teach the ideals that this story should give us to strive for.  So, for instance, the ideals of peace, plenty, sharing, commonalities being emphasized in the breaking of bread, hospitality, gratitude to God.

And then later when kids are older to point out how those ideals were not realized at inception, and that people of good will should work toward them.  

That’s pretty much what Martin Luther King did in pointing to the Declaration of Independence, and it’s both effective and positive while not covering up the whole truth.  

[Faith-manor]

I taught my kids that the original pilgrim harvest feast was a day of thanks for those settlers who made it through the year and were able to put food away for the next winter, a major feat in a land that was new to them, a celebration of survival. But it is a day of sorrow also because it very much marked the beginning of colonialism that would cause great harm to other peoples for whom this land was already their home. Then when they were mature enough, we talked about genocide. For our family, we have kept the holiday only as a time when everyone is off work and able to be together. We have not always done a traditional Thanksgiving meal. We are also people who despise Columbus Day, and instead believe in Indigenous People's Day which should be celebrated by learning more, listening, and doing better.

I would be fine with the disappearance of Thanksgiving if there was ever a federal will for it. But, we can imbue it with a lot of other meaning. As for the pilgrim/indian trope dressup/skit/etc. it is just disturbing to me that people continue to perpetuate it. Hopefully my children's generation can make that go the way of the dodo.

[prairiewindmomma]

With little kids, we made sure to include native voices in our narrative. Squanto's Journey isn't my favorite, but it's one of the few pk-2 books out there.  We also pulled out other books and talked about storytelling.  For that age, we are doing the personal timeline in SOTW, and we talk about perspective taking---what happened, how we know what happened, what we might guess about---and how that shapes things. We also talk about symbols--what symbols are and so forth.  

When they are a bit older, we circle back to symbolism and we pull out books like 1621: a new look at Thanksgiving which is great for that grades 3-6 crowd, and also 1620: Mayflower and talk about how some of our symbolism traditional (black hat, silver buckle) is off, and what really happened. At that age, kids are able to perspective take a bit better, and so we also talk about who writes history and why.  We talk about dominant narratives and why some voices are heard and others are silenced. We talk about why that matters.

I honestly don't think my kids have really been ready to hear the deep details until somewhere high school aged. Columbus was brutal. Horrific. Columbus sold girls into sexual slavery, mutilated a lot of native peoples, ordered the beheading of others.  Some people committed mass suicide rather than be subjected to him.  Some things I speak of only in generalities with my kids, but I have source material available if they need to see it.

For me, there is a parallel to my own experience in Mormonism and with Mormon history. There was a dominant narrative that glossed over a ton of atrocity. There were lies told to whitewash misdeeds. I want my kids to recognize the pattern, learn to check primary sources, and look for personal bias--ask WHY a story is told this way and what else there may be to tell. I also think it's important to look at historical context. Columbus, as an example, was brutal not only to native peoples, but also to Spainards. That doesn't excuse his behavior, but it helps put some context around it. 

[MEmama]

I always emphasized the Great American Myth. That much of we learn as history is just stories that are written by the “winner” and usually without regard to the “loser”. That we learn these stories to create a sense of pride, false as it is, to instill some sort of national cohesion that has never existed. It’s tidy and neat and unabashedly false. 
 

Thanksgiving was an easy one for us. When DS was in grade 1 we lived in Canada and his teacher read them the same pilgrim stories American kids hear. When I asked her about it she responded, “oh, the stories of both countries are the same”. I mean even 6 year old DS knew that was BS. Yeah, we pulled him out soon thereafter in favor of homeschooling. Lol He’s always remembered that incident though— lies good enough for 2 countries! 
 

eta it helps that our family has never had “beloved” holidays. We explain and celebrate what feels important to us, but we don’t do blind faith or sentimental annual traditions just because. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by MEmama

[Pam in CT]

Harvest festivals are a good deal wider than American Thanksgiving. If you widen the lens just a little, and put the modern-day American holiday into that context, it opens up space to up the emphasis on all sorts of true and developmentally appropriate gratitude -- for plentiful food, for the bounty of the earth, for the changing of the season, for time with family and friends, for the blessings of tradition and repetition, that we're able to celebrate this year in a way we were were unable to celebrate last year -- and dial back the emphasis on the construction-paper-feathers story.

I mean, there's really no particular reason why three year olds have to master the Plymouth Rock story in all its ambivalent nuance before they master the alphabet, or the Pandora's Box story, or the wonder of leaves falling in autumn and growing anew again in the spring.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Pam in CT
omitted word

[marbel]

12 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

If you widen the lens just a little, and put the modern-day American holiday into that context, it opens up space to up the emphasis on all sorts of true and developmentally appropriate gratitude -- for plentiful food, for the bounty of the earth, for the changing of the season, for time with family and friends, for the blessings of tradition and repetition, that we're able to celebrate this year in a way we were were unable to celebrate last year

This is how we have approached Thanksgiving since our kids were, well, I don't know how old. We did also read to them about the more problematic parts of the Thanksgiving story and history of early America as they got older. 

I actually think that Thanksgiving is a beautiful holiday if one focuses on gratitude as Pam says above. It is not generally associated with consumerism (though of course no holiday has to be, but too often they are), except for anticipation of Black Friday, which always makes me rather sad -- that's the part I wish would go away.  The idea of setting aside a day to express gratitude for whatever one feels grateful for - I think that is a wonderful thing. 

[Terabith]

58 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Harvest festivals are a good deal wider than American Thanksgiving. If you widen the lens just a little, and put the modern-day American holiday into that context, it opens up space to up the emphasis on all sorts of true and developmentally appropriate gratitude -- for plentiful food, for the bounty of the earth, for the changing of the season, for time with family and friends, for the blessings of tradition and repetition, that we're able to celebrate this year in a way we were were unable to celebrate last year -- and dial back the emphasis on the construction-paper-feathers story.

I mean, there's really no particular reason why three year olds have to master the Plymouth Rock story in all its ambivalent nuance before they master the alphabet, or the Pandora's Box story, or the wonder of leaves falling in autumn and growing anew again in the spring.

 

 

 

 

I agree that this is a good take with the preschool set.  Frankly, the idea of doing Plymouth with three and four year olds is shocking to me.  
 

I am also thinking ahead to looking for a job teaching elementary school, and teaching the great American myths, including Thanksgiving, are a prescribed part of the curriculum.  And with school wide festivals, an individual teacher has a LITTLE wiggle room to bring in different voices and talk about different parts of the narrative, but not enough to not do it.  Hence, multi pronged ponderings. 
 

Columbus is definitely all kinds of problematic, but I am always fascinated by him because yes, he committed horrific atrocities.  But I’m also fascinated by the fact that he was so darn determined to sail west looking for the Indies despite EVERYONE knowing the ocean  was too big. I always wonder what gave him such determination to do something so senseless.  But I have never really had trouble talking with even pretty young kids about individual people having flaws (and quite a number of American heroes have not at all minor foibles), even if they also did great or amazing things. I think even pretty little kids can understand individuals….but systematic issues are harder for me to explain.  

Edited November 15, 2021 by Terabith

[MEmama]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I agree that this is a good take with the preschool set.  Frankly, the idea of doing Plymouth with three and four year olds is shocking to me.  
 

I am also thinking ahead to looking for a job teaching elementary school, and teaching the great American myths, including Thanksgiving, are a prescribed part of the curriculum.  And with school wide festivals, an individual teacher has a LITTLE wiggle room to bring in different voices and talk about different parts of the narrative, but not enough to not do it.  Hence, multi pronged ponderings. 
 

Columbus is definitely all kinds of problematic, but I am always fascinated by him because yes, he committed horrific atrocities.  But I’m also fascinated by the fact that he was so darn determined to sail west looking for the Indies despite EVERYONE knowing the ocean  was too big. I always wonder what gave him such determination to do something so senseless.  But I have never really had trouble talking with even pretty young kids about individual people having flaws (and quite a number of American heroes have not at all minor foibles), even if they also did great or amazing things. I think even pretty little kids can understand individuals….but systematic issues are harder for me to explain.  

I mean, there’s quite a bit well founded speculation that the Portuguese were in North America before Columbus, and of course the Vikings were here some 1000 years earlier. And Cabot just a few years later. It wasn’t undoable. What is more astonishing to me about Columbus is that he insisted to his dying day that he’d discovered the East Indies. The dude literally had no idea where he was.

I believe ocean travel was far more prevalent in early times than the Winners (ie wealthy white European men with something to prove) preserved. So many exciting discoveries are coming out about ocean travel to South America displacing some of the Land Bridge theory; I suspect as certain Powers That Be continue to have less influence over writing history, the better an understanding we will have. And it isn’t likely to look like what we’ve been taught to accept.

[Terabith]

12 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I mean, there’s quite a bit well founded speculation that the Portuguese were in North America before Columbus, and of course the Vikings were here some 1000 years earlier. And Cabot just a few years later. It wasn’t undoable. What is more astonishing to me about Columbus is that he insisted to his dying day that he’d discovered the East Indies. The dude literally had no idea where he was.

I believe ocean travel was far more prevalent in early times than the Winners (ie wealthy white European men with something to prove) preserved. So many exciting discoveries are coming out about ocean travel to South America displacing some of the Land Bridge theory; I suspect as certain Powers That Be continue to have less influence over writing history, the better an understanding we will have. And it isn’t likely to look like what we’ve been taught to accept.

Oh, definitely!  There's some fascinating stuff about Pacific Islanders in California, too.  I think travel was definitely more common than it has oft been presented, but the timing of the pandemics that wiped out, what 99% of the population?  Makes me think it wasn't all THAT prevalent yet.  But....I don't know.  

[HomeAgain]

We've done it differently each year.

For Thanksgiving, we start with Thank You Sarah! followed by Molly's Pilgrim when we start getting into history. Thank You, Sarah! is the story of why Thanksgiving is a national holiday.  We use Molly's Pilgrim to address the changing and static needs of people, but then we're able to do things at that point like listen to Wampanoag history, understand the variety of people coming, the good and the bad actions they took, and the impact on other societies.  Little by little, we add some each year.  Then we start adding in history-within-history: how specific tales were told to encourage mindsets and what was going on in the country at that time.  How Norman Rockwell changed how we thought about the day, for example, with his Four Freedoms series in 1943, when the U.S. was in the middle of WWII.  We compare that to Thank You, Sarah, when the country was gearing up for the civil war.

Of course, Addams Family Values is also my kids' favorite approach to T-day, so...... 😆

I don't like to sugar coat, but I like to keep it age appropriate. 

[Katy]

I discuss it very loosely, I make the focus on being thankful to God for the harvest that allows us to eat and for everything else.

I prefer to discuss the reality of the horrors of colonialism and the fact that the Pilgrims were in a cult that was chased out of multiple countries when kids are much older.  In fact readiness for ideas like that used to be considered college or graduate level work, so typically for me it's at least 8th grade.  Will I turn it off if I'm watching something about it and a 10 year old walks in?  Probably not, but it depends on the 10 year old.  Some are ready for this, and some aren't.

I also have some reservations about the way, for example, Zinn conceptualizes the world. I prefer colonialism to the Taliban, for example.  I am not so sure that the Osage, for example (and as told to me by a tribal member), weren't more brutal in their pre-colonial reign of the Midwest than the Taliban is today.  People are people and war brings out the worst of us, and it doesn't matter which group is part of the grab for power.  The reality of that isn't something young children need to know.  They need to be taught they are safe and they are loved, by their families and by God, and that is all.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

As for the pilgrim/indian trope dressup/skit/etc. it is just disturbing to me that people continue to perpetuate it. Hopefully my children's generation can make that go the way of the dodo.

On a sort of side note, my son attended a brick and mortar school in K, and the yearly tradition included a lot of this, but they also had a Native American interpreter come and speak. I don't remember if she spoke about NA traditions or Thanksgiving or what, but she spoke (presumably yearly) to a big group of kids dressed like this! 

I make a lot of broad disclaimers for my kids (this is not the whole story, so and so also did a lot of bad stuff, and more specific things if I know them), but I am not as good at following up on the details because I don't always know them, or it feel like the information keeps changing (as in, more information comes to light, or what I find is also very basic vs. a fully parallel retelling). I primarily try to make sure that my kids hear from more up-to-date sources like documentaries or podcasts, but it's not always neatly lined up with their history lessons. I try to make sure they know that some things are overly simplified (in addition to being biased) and that people are continuing to research these things to tell history from other points of view, and these are some people who work hard to bring out angles to stories that aren't usually covered or tell stories that were just not told or emphasized. 

[Elizabeth86]

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

We watched the Squanto movie. It portrays some of the yucky parts of that part of our history. There's tons of artistic license, but the truth is there. 

What ages is this good for?

[MEmama]

https://www.pressherald.com/2021/11/14/chris-newell-pens-books-about-the-plimoth-thanksgiving/
 

This is by a local author, but there must be more out there that are similar. It’s geared toward elementary school kids.

Edited November 15, 2021 by MEmama

[fairfarmhand]

10 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

What ages is this good for?

Probably school aged kids. At least thats how old my kids were when they saw it. (5 or 6 and older) very sensitive kids might need a year or two more, because there are soem hard things there.

[Melissa Louise]

Not American, obv, but for our big national holiday, I just went for straight up bluntness. 

"We call it Invasion Day. White settlers invaded this country and stole the land. Many Indigenous people died of diseases we brought with us, or in battles with the invaders. It's a very sad day, and that's why we don't celebrate it."

Later I filled in context - lots of those first settlers were convicts - their invasion was involuntary. Responsibility lay with the British crown. Nevertheless, many convicts later benefited from invasion. 

I mean, just straight up tell the truth. It's easier when your kids aren't in school getting brainwashed into falsehoods. 

 

[Farrar]

For us, from the time my kids were little, I focused on the harvest festival aspects of the holiday and was really blunt that it was a holiday that told a lie and that we were celebrating the good aspects (food, family, togetherness, gratefulness) and being aware of the issues (the Native Americans and the early European settlers did sometimes join together, but emphasizing that the way Thanksgiving does gives the wrong impression about the exploitation, germ warfare, violence, and crime that settlers inflicted on indigenous groups). And I was usually pretty blunt, even for 3 yos. I think little kids understand unfairness pretty well. I would start with language like that - the settlers were unfair and stole and didn't treat the Native Americans very well most of the time. As they grow, you add nuance. The joined together sometimes. The first Thanksgiving was one of those moments and isn't it sad that they didn't continue to do that. And more nuance. And so forth.

I know at some point, we did the story of Sarah Hale - there's that Laurie Halse Anderson longish picture book Thank You, Sarah! Her story is interesting and I think Thanksgiving's role as a holiday to unite the country as part of Reconstruction is a legacy that most people don't consider. Not that that makes it fine that they mythologized this glossy version of the American founding, just that that's more nuance as well.

Part of me wishes we could divorce the holiday from its history completely and just have a harvest festival. 

[jen3kids]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I always emphasized the Great American Myth. That much of we learn as history is just stories that are written by the “winner” and usually without regard to the “loser”. That we learn these stories to create a sense of pride, false as it is, to instill some sort of national cohesion that has never existed. It’s tidy and neat and unabashedly false. 
 

Thanksgiving was an easy one for us. When DS was in grade 1 we lived in Canada and his teacher read them the same pilgrim stories American kids hear. When I asked her about it she responded, “oh, the stories of both countries are the same”. I mean even 6 year old DS knew that was BS. Yeah, we pulled him out soon thereafter in favor of homeschooling. Lol He’s always remembered that incident though— lies good enough for 2 countries! 
 

eta it helps that our family has never had “beloved” holidays. We explain and celebrate what feels important to us, but we don’t do blind faith or sentimental annual traditions just because. 

I grew up in Canada (and taught elementary school for a short time) and I don't remember hearing or telling stories about pilgrims.  We just talked about it being harvest time and coloured cornucopias.  When I moved to the US as an adult we never celebrated American Thanksgiving, only Canadian Thanksgiving and when my friends here asked about pilgrims, the Mayflower, and such, I responded with, 'No.  It's a harvest celebration.'  I don't think I had any idea about pilgrims or the Mayflower and such until my kids were in pre-school here.   I thought it was weird that it was on a Thursday and was followed by a big shopping holiday.   Americans were also fascinated that we eat (pretty much) the same food for Canadian Thanksgiving as they did for American Thanksgiving.  

 

As for teaching it, I agree with telling it like it is, in an age-appropriate way.  

[Lawyer&Mom]

I like This First Thanksgiving Day by Laura Krauss Melmed, because it puts the focus equally on the Pilgrims and the Wampanoags and the illustrations are lovely.  I talk about it being nice that these groups were able to celebrate the harvest together, but that unfortunately this was rare (for all the reasons.)

Columbus is easier.  Columbus Day has no particular meaning to my kids, so it’s easy to say “Hey this guy did this one remarkable thing, but he also did a lot of bad things.  Its important to know about him because the European discovery of the New World is a big event in history, not because he was a good person.”    

[Tanaqui]

When they were little, we focused on everything that is NOT Pilgrims and Indians or even remotely "historical". Handprint turkeys? Check! A diverse picturebook list of family dinners and holidays? Check! Emphasis on family fun? Check!

Aaaaaand then when the older one was in the first or second grade they brought home a homework assignment on "The real first thanksgiving" which was about white settlers somewhere else, like, Quebec or someplace, and - well,  let's just say that the whole day ended with a scathing letter to the teacher. Which I didn't send, but I still wish I had.

[Clarita]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

When they were little, we focused on everything that is NOT Pilgrims and Indians or even remotely "historical". Handprint turkeys? Check! A diverse picturebook list of family dinners and holidays? Check! Emphasis on family fun? Check!

That's what I do with my 3 and 5 year old. We do US history because I found just plain social studies to be really boring. I just use the US history stories like a science demo to talk about where we live or some other thing they should know. If I remember correctly when we did the Pilgrim unit we talked about boats. (Since when we did some stuff on "explorers in America" my 5 yr old put a bunch of plane stickers down for how do you think people arrived in North America.) 

My 3 year old we are still trying to teach her that oceans, swimming pools and puddles are not all oceans. So, my kids are definately not ready for all the nuances of history.

[Eos]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

t's easier when your kids aren't in school getting brainwashed into falsehoods. 

This.  Much easier, though it was still hard to peel away the layers from community spaces like the library story hour.  But those were all teachable moments.  I often felt like the Mom Who Ruined Everything because I wouldn't just let my kids do all the crafts.

 

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

just have a harvest festival. 

This is what we did.  Our whole year's garden is focused on stuff to eat for Thanksgiving.  We forage cranberries and buy a turkey from a friend but otherwise it's always been the goal to grow everything else.

I have been thinking a lot about truth and reconciliation as a way to work with Thanksgiving.  This is from Canada  https://www.facinghistory.org/stolen-lives-indigenous-peoples-canada-and-indian-residential-schools/historical-background/truth-and-reconciliation

This is in my area: https://www.mainewabanakireach.org/

 

[JennyD]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

there's that Laurie Halse Anderson longish picture book Thank You, Sarah! Her story is interesting and I think Thanksgiving's role as a holiday to unite the country as part of Reconstruction is a legacy that most people don't consider. Not that that makes it fine that they mythologized this glossy version of the American founding, just that that's more nuance as well.

We have that book, too, and it does lend some valuable context to the holiday.  I also recently read that Columbus Day was established in response to anti-italian American sentiment.

My religion has a LOT of holidays, and some of them can be . . . complicated, when you really drill down. (Looking at you, Chanukah).  But that's okay.  Complicated is okay.   We can revel in the lights and the fun and also debate the merits of the Maccabees. 

Separately, NOT with respect to homeschooling but strictly as a matter of political strategy, I think it is a bad idea to try and raise awareness of Native or any other difficult issues by focusing on holidays.  Americans get so few days off, and Protestant Christianity seems to have hardly any holidays.  I am all in favor of gentle reframing to gradually move away from dubious origins, but holidays are popular and fun and America should have more of them.

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by JennyD

[MEmama]

2 hours ago, jen3kids said:

I grew up in Canada (and taught elementary school for a short time) and I don't remember hearing or telling stories about pilgrims.  We just talked about it being harvest time and coloured cornucopias.  When I moved to the US as an adult we never celebrated American Thanksgiving, only Canadian Thanksgiving and when my friends here asked about pilgrims, the Mayflower, and such, I responded with, 'No.  It's a harvest celebration.'  I don't think I had any idea about pilgrims or the Mayflower and such until my kids were in pre-school here.   I thought it was weird that it was on a Thursday and was followed by a big shopping holiday.   Americans were also fascinated that we eat (pretty much) the same food for Canadian Thanksgiving as they did for American Thanksgiving.  

 

As for teaching it, I agree with telling it like it is, in an age-appropriate way.  

Yeah, it was weird. She honestly seemed to think it was normal to read stories about pilgrims in funny hats and pointy shoes to a classroom of Canadian kids. And she was extremely defensive when I asked. 

[alisoncooks]

6 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Of course, Addams Family Values is also my kids' favorite approach to T-day, so...... 😆

Ha! We just watched this (again) the other day and officially labeled it a Thanksgiving movie. (It made an easy slide from Halloween to Thanksgiving…)

(“We won’t stay fresh for very long — so eat us before we finish this song!”)

[Carrie12345]

I honestly don’t know how the average parent does this while there are still schools/programs that perpetuate the same stuff we were shovel-fed in the 70s and 80s!
I remember finding it very challenging when my eldest was in school from pre-to 4th. (My only kid to have gone to school.) I did deconstruct so many things at home but, even at that age, and even as an aspie, he knew he needed to play along in class in order to be “a good student”, which was of utmost importance to him.  A few years of homeschooling and a passion for reading non-fiction seem to have helped him iron things out in the long run.

I haven’t found it all that challenging with my always-homeschooled kids. Especially in a household that has always given 100% (well, MY 100%, which is nowhere near the intended 100%,lol) to the ancient period and burned out before hitting the rest, lacking the same enthusiasm, lol. They had a solid feel for all the ills of “civilization” long before we put our modern celebrations into context, and it all checks out to them.
(As atheists, this also worked out in religious education.)

Personally, I found the most complicated part to be keeping my kids from being unnecessarily rude in conversations with others. I doubt there’s a single person who responds well to an 8yo telling them they’re ignorant. Not that they’d put it exactly that way, but it’s what they might convey.

I do not believe that one bad performance at 3 or 4 years old will mess up a kid’s ability to learn better over time, but I can’t for the life of me understand why grown adults continue to make them do it! I was going to say, “This is not 1981” and then realized how many preschool teachers probably weren’t even alive in 1981, so now I understand it even less.

[Faith-manor]

15 hours ago, JennyD said:

We have that book, too, and it does lend some valuable context to the holiday.  I also recently read that Columbus Day was established in response to anti-italian American sentiment.

My religion has a LOT of holidays, and some of them can be . . . complicated, when you really drill down. (Looking at you, Chanukah).  But that's okay.  Complicated is okay.   We can revel in the lights and the fun and also debate the merits of the Maccabees. 

Separately, NOT with respect to homeschooling but strictly as a matter of political strategy, I think it is a bad idea to try and raise awareness of Native or any other difficult issues by focusing on holidays.  Americans get so few days off, and Protestant Christianity seems to have hardly any holidays.  I am all in favor of gentle reframing to gradually move away from dubious origins, but holidays are popular and fun and America should have more of them.

 

There is a lot of truth to this. Protestantism is a work to death type thing. Having a holiday for down time and not having it be mentally heavy is very important. Mostly, we talked about TDay history in the context of world and American history so very much covered in the education M-F stuff. It helped that we viewed Tday as simply a day off work to spend time with family, stuff our faces, and relax. We tend to be that way about other holidays as well! 😁

[marbel]

9 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Protestantism is a work to death type thing.

What about that one day in seven set aside for rest?   

I mean, I like holidays and I am not great about observing the Sabbath, but it seems pretty clear that we are not meant to work ourselves to death with no down time. 

[Faith-manor]

46 minutes ago, marbel said:

What about that one day in seven set aside for rest?   

I mean, I like holidays and I am not great about observing the Sabbath, but it seems pretty clear that we are not meant to work ourselves to death with no down time. 

That might be, but when you consider the amount of work that church staff, worship teams etc. do in order to put on services, then lock up after the last chatty people leave, and especially for churches with two services, It is at most a half day of rest. On top of that, in America, this is not observed by a ton of employers so like my husband in IT, if something happens, he is expected to work. Retail, gas, EMS, medical, and many of them have weeks that they work seven days a week. There isn't a lot of influence from Protestantism for it to be any different compared to say Judaism which does try harder to preserve this.

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

That might be, but when you consider the amount of work that church staff, worship teams etc. do in order to put on services, then lock up after the last chatty people leave, and especially for churches with two services, It is at most a half day of rest. On top of that, in America, this is not observed by a ton of employers so like my husband in IT, if something happens, he is expected to work. Retail, gas, EMS, medical, and many of them have weeks that they work seven days a week. There isn't a lot of influence from Protestantism for it to be any different compared to say Judaism which does try harder to preserve this.

Most church workers that I know take a different day to Sabbath. 

If they don't, they definitely SHOULD take a day to rest each week. That's Biblical.

Sidebar:

Our church was very traditional with its service times. Sunday School, Morning worship, Choir practice 5:30, Evening worship 6 p.m. 

During the pandemic they swapped things up. Now there's Sunday school and 2 services, but they;re at 9 and 11 am. Church stuff is done by noon. 

I never knew that Sundays could be so restful. My dad was a pastor and Sundays were so tiring for our family. I really feel that our new normal for our church is much more in keeping with what was intended. We feel rested after Sunday.

It seems that so often the "church" is modeled for extroverts. And the rest of us who don't get our jollies by hanging out with others are left in the dust.

 

[Terabith]

9 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I honestly don’t know how the average parent does this while there are still schools/programs that perpetuate the same stuff we were shovel-fed in the 70s and 80s!
I remember finding it very challenging when my eldest was in school from pre-to 4th. (My only kid to have gone to school.) I did deconstruct so many things at home but, even at that age, and even as an aspie, he knew he needed to play along in class in order to be “a good student”, which was of utmost importance to him.  A few years of homeschooling and a passion for reading non-fiction seem to have helped him iron things out in the long run.

I haven’t found it all that challenging with my always-homeschooled kids. Especially in a household that has always given 100% (well, MY 100%, which is nowhere near the intended 100%,lol) to the ancient period and burned out before hitting the rest, lacking the same enthusiasm, lol. They had a solid feel for all the ills of “civilization” long before we put our modern celebrations into context, and it all checks out to them.
(As atheists, this also worked out in religious education.)

Personally, I found the most complicated part to be keeping my kids from being unnecessarily rude in conversations with others. I doubt there’s a single person who responds well to an 8yo telling them they’re ignorant. Not that they’d put it exactly that way, but it’s what they might convey.

I do not believe that one bad performance at 3 or 4 years old will mess up a kid’s ability to learn better over time, but I can’t for the life of me understand why grown adults continue to make them do it! I was going to say, “This is not 1981” and then realized how many preschool teachers probably weren’t even alive in 1981, so now I understand it even less.

Oh, I definitely don't believe that these children are being directly harmed by the construction paper Pilgrims and Indians performance in a way that permanently prevents them from later understanding the truth of the holiday.  I'm more just aghast that anyone thinks it's a GOOD IDEA.  (Those feathered Indian construction paper head dresses genuinely shocked me.  Like, who thinks that is okay???). 

[Faith-manor]

6 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Most church workers that I know take a different day to Sabbath. 

If they don't, they definitely SHOULD take a day to rest each week. That's Biblical.

Sidebar:

Our church was very traditional with its service times. Sunday School, Morning worship, Choir practice 5:30, Evening worship 6 p.m. 

During the pandemic they swapped things up. Now there's Sunday school and 2 services, but they;re at 9 and 11 am. Church stuff is done by noon. 

I never knew that Sundays could be so restful. My dad was a pastor and Sundays were so tiring for our family. I really feel that our new normal for our church is much more in keeping with what was intended. We feel rested after Sunday.

It seems that so often the "church" is modeled for extroverts. And the rest of us who don't get our jollies by hanging out with others are left in the dust.

 

Church workers here do not tend to get another day ofd.because the churches schedule activities for Friday nights and Saturdays, expect the staff to be in the office Mon-Fri. No rest for the weary. Usually they have 5 Sundays out of the entire year, and five other days to claim as sick or vacation days. Otherwise, it is on the clock 7 days per week at least five full days and two half days or longer.

I personally do not think the Bible prescribes the Sabbath in the way it is done in modern times. At best, a small gathering for communion, prayers, sharing, and singing as described by Paul. Nothing else. I don't think it was supposed to be an entity that programmed everyone to death. Add in Wednesday night church after a long work day, and Sunday night again after Sunday morning plus Bible studies, youth and children's activities, Advent services, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, Easter Sunrise, Easter Service,....no rest. And when I was a church pianist, I was on for Christmas Eve and Christmas Noon services, every Thursday evening Advent services, and rehearsals during the weekly evenings with singers and choirs (adult and children plus conducting bells) while also working a regular job during the day. It is one reason I hated holidays.

I have seen this a lot. The volunteers work more hours a week than the paid staff because they have their six day a week job, and then work Sundays and evenings for the church. It has all become too complicated for workers to rest.

[marbel]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

I don't think it was supposed to be an entity that programmed everyone to death. Add in Wednesday night church after a long work day, and Sunday night again after Sunday morning plus Bible studies, youth and children's activities, Advent services, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, Easter Sunrise, Easter Service,....no rest.

Yeah, I don't hang out in churches that have constant activity like that. The most I've had in a church I belonged to or regularly attended is Sunday morning with optional Sunday evening prayer meeting, and other activities such as small groups, Bible studies that people may or may not choose to participate in, and then periodic social-type events. I think if people find church exhausting it's time to find another church - which may be easier said than done; I'm not discounting the difficulty in finding a good church - I'm going through that right now. 

American Protestantism is a big and diverse group. I'm sure many churches have strayed from their origins in a lot of ways. 

[Reefgazer]

Well, regarding Thanksgiving, if you find the traditions offensive, just give thanks and call it done.  It doesn't need a narrative at all, really.