Fascinating article in The Economist about Detransitioners

[Lecka]

When we moved it went from zero non-binary kids to all the Juniors and Seniors in drama/theater.  My son has been involved because he likes building sets with power tools so he’s on the traditional male side in ways.  Here there is a theater teacher who does a lot of set-building who is non-binary, and my son got along really well with that person (they/them I don’t know how to use that pronoun in this sentence).  That person was very knowledgable with set design and stuff my son does like.  
 

But the drama program here requires a massive time requirement and my son is looking at other interests.  Where we moved from it was possible to participate in other things or take harder classes and also participate in drama.

 

Here — I could understand it for performers, but it’s a ridiculous level of commitment for stage crew and my son is taking 2 AP classes instead, and there is no way he could take them and also be in stage crew here (bc the time commitment is so great).

 

I still think his one friend benefits greatly, he did not seem like he could care less about any academic class and only did well with stage crew.

 

His other friend is going to vo-tech for carpentry, which connects in a huge way with stage crew, but our high schools’ block at vo-tech overlaps with drama/theater so he is not doing drama/theater anymore either.  If he had stayed in, my son probably would have also.  But our high school has the PM block at vo-tech.  
 

Edit:  anyway, if we hadn’t moved, I think my son would have done stage crew all the way through high school, he has done lights and he was the lead on sound booth as a Sophomore, but his favorite is set building and (basically) using power tools and painting things.  Now that we have moved — there is a STEM club here doing a project with power tools and my son likes that and is good at it.  And since we have moved to my hometown — he is doing some woodworking projects with my step-dad and my step-dad has also helped him join a club for model airplanes that he likes.  But the drama/theater here turns out to be way too demanding and also 100% non-binary (according to my son) and it’s just not as welcoming as the program we moved from, which was truly very welcoming and concerned with keeping kids in high school more than anything else (because it was a high-poverty district and now we are in a more wealthy district).  

Edited November 10, 2021 by Lecka

[Dynamite5]

13 hours ago, Quill said:

Ok. 🤷🏻‍♀️ You started this dust-up, but if you don’t have the energy to continue with it, you’re excused. 
 

It is not the same as your examples. You don’t spare someone’s feelings by failing to give them actual medical information that affects their body permanently. I think saying “top surgery” is an intentional attempt to make it seem like no big deal, like having a mole lasered off. 

Yes, I did start this and I'm sorry I backed out so early because I'm very passionate about this, but my very dear friend's husband died yesterday and it has taken all my energy. I typed and retyped answers to @HS Mom in NC but I couldn't say what I wanted to say to her and stay nice because of the other stuff swirling in my head. It was clear to me when I came back to the thread and she had accused me of having only a fundamental understanding of LGBTQ+ issues and you were proclaiming you were proud to have informed yourself about top surgery from a thread on a homeschooling forum that I wasn't even going to get you to listen and I needed to direct my emotional energy toward my friend and her children. I'm feeling like a terrible ally to have backed out, but I do only have so much emotional energy, sadly.

 

The last thing I will say is that you keep repeating that people are not receiving "actual medical advice" because of the use of the term top surgery. That is false. The use of the term top surgery does not prevent people from getting medical advice. 

[regentrude]

12 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have always been ethically consistent on elective cosmetic surgery* - I don't believe it can be justified in terms of using health resources, and I think it harms us as a society. Elective double mastectomies, undertaken for cosmetic reasons, fall into the same category for me. I'm not a huge believer in fixing things from the outside in, anyway. It's personal - I rejected a cosmetic surgery for an issue I have at ten - because part of me knew it was better to learn to live with the body I had. 

*Not the same as reconstructive surgery or surgery taken to avoid b/cancer or for reasons of health (reduction). 

I have a similar stance on cosmetic surgery, but was curious: what, for you, puts reconstructive surgery into a different category from elective cosmetic surgery? It does not restore function, and the purpose is solely for external appearance. (Not wanting to start an argument, just trying to understand. )

[Melissa Louise]

27 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I have a similar stance on cosmetic surgery, but was curious: what, for you, puts reconstructive surgery into a different category from elective cosmetic surgery? It does not restore function, and the purpose is solely for external appearance. (Not wanting to start an argument, just trying to understand. )

Recon prob the wrong term. I'm thinking of the kind of surgery a burns victim might have etc. 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Recon prob the wrong term. I'm thinking of the kind of surgery a burns victim might have etc. 

oh that makes sense.  (I had been thinking of breast recon after mastectomy)

[Melissa Louise]

New case study of a detransitioner by a psychotherapist.

May be of interest. 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-5922.12711

 

[GoodnightMoogle]

Reading this thread just adds to my anxiety of raising my one year old son. I’m only 26 - yet I feel like in such a short amount of time the entire world has changed for children. This stuff just was not talked about when I was in high school. No one came out as trans, non-binary, gender fluid, or anything like that. 

Now so many kids in the same school I went to are calling themselves non-binary. It’s exploded. Not sure if my head was under a rock or if something major was taking place behind the scenes and I missed it.

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

Reading this thread just adds to my anxiety of raising my one year old son. I’m only 26 - yet I feel like in such a short amount of time the entire world has changed for children. This stuff just was not talked about when I was in high school. No one came out as trans, non-binary, gender fluid, or anything like that. 

Now so many kids in the same school I went to are calling themselves non-binary. It’s exploded. Not sure if my head was under a rock or if something major was taking place behind the scenes and I missed it.

Honestly, I don't think there's any reason to worry about it at all if you have just one child who is a year old. I think this situation is very much in flux and hopefully will have settled in a more reasonable place by the time he is old enough for it to have any relevance to him. The fact that he's a boy also means it's much less likely to be directly relevant.

Actually, if trans identification continues to explode, maybe that alone will have an impact on medicalization. Surely there's a point when the medical profession will say, "wait a minute, we can't sterilize such a huge percentage of the current generation of young people before they're even out of college. We're going to have to take a different approach"

[Terabith]

20 minutes ago, KSera said:

Actually, if trans identification continues to explode, maybe that alone will have an impact on medicalization. Surely there's a point when the medical profession will say, "wait a minute, we can't sterilize such a huge percentage of the current generation of young people before they're even out of college. We're going to have to take a different approach"

My kids have said since they were about six that that is exactly what is needed, since climate change will make life hell and it would be cruel to bring more children into that world.  They've joked since elementary school that their generation was going to be the one to sterilize everyone.  

Maybe they meant it?

[Dmmetler]

38 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My kids have said since they were about six that that is exactly what is needed, since climate change will make life hell and it would be cruel to bring more children into that world.  They've joked since elementary school that their generation was going to be the one to sterilize everyone.  

Maybe they meant it?

I know far more teens who have no plans of ever having children than who want them, and I do wonder if that plays into it. If you believe that you never want kids and that having kids is downright immoral, taking hormones or even undergoing surgery that causes sterility might be less a bug and more a feature in your mind-and potentially easier to get than for a cis woman who has not had children yet than to get a tubal. 

And if women are "supposed" to want kids, that might contribute too. The single woman who gets pressured by family and friends about marriage and children is a pretty common trope. 

 

 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

My kids have said since they were about six that that is exactly what is needed, since climate change will make life hell and it would be cruel to bring more children into that world.  They've joked since elementary school that their generation was going to be the one to sterilize everyone.  

Maybe they meant it?

This has occurred to me. My asexual adult child has been maintaining since the age of thirteen that it is immoral to have children so long as no major steps to reverse climate change are being enacted. I can't rule out that it is a factor.

[KSera]

7 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

If you believe that you never want kids and that having kids is downright immoral, taking hormones or even undergoing surgery that causes sterility might be less a bug and more a feature in your mind-and potentially easier to get than for a cis woman who has not had children yet than to get a tubal. 

You may be right here. My dc is annoyed that they can’t get a hysterectomy just for sterilization (actually, even more because periods are a painful pitb) reasons at their age. However, they could have it done as part of a transition (and paid for even).

[Melissa Louise]

Hysterectomies are not risk free for young people. There are other forms of long-actimg contraception more suitable. 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Hysterectomies are not risk free for young people. There are other forms of long-actimg contraception more suitable. 

Oh, absolutely. It’s just an interesting thing that if a young person transitions, they can get one, but they can’t otherwise. For someone ambivalent about their gender who is beyond done dealing with painful periods, it’s a check in the transition column. 

[Dmmetler]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Hysterectomies are not risk free for young people. There are other forms of long-actimg contraception more suitable. 

I would agree 100%-but I could see it figuring in, even subconsciously. Similarly, I've seen parents on online forums talk about putting their kids on hormonal birth control so their trans sons don't have periods, or at least have them less frequently, even if they're doing nothing else as far as physical transitioning, and I do wonder if they would be as comfortable putting a cis young teen girl on birth control, even if she has utterly miserable periods (I know I didn't get the pill until after I was 18, even though I had hormonally triggered migraines bad enough to regularly land me in the ER, and even then my mom was rather unhappy at it being prescribed, feeling that it basically gave a license to be active). 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

21 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, absolutely. It’s just an interesting thing that if a young person transitions, they can get one, but they can’t otherwise. For someone ambivalent about their gender who is beyond done dealing with painful periods, it’s a check in the transition column. 

Sexism.

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Sexism.

 

Yup. 
 

***
Separately, not wanting kids could be another way a teen is myopic about transitioning. I mean, *I* didn’t really want kids as a teen. I was actually puzzled by people who were like, “All I want to be is a mom.” I was not very interested in kids until I had my own.

Now that I have a married daughter, I can see how there’s even a weird vicarious pressure to have kids, as friends of *mine* talk about when my daughter “gives [you] grandchildren.” Can we just talk about how much I hate this phrasing? If my dd and her husband decide to have a child, awesome, but they wouldn’t be doing it to “give me” anything. Actually, if they asked me for my opinion, I would say wait several years before having a kid; there’s a lot to be said for the DINK stage. 

[RootAnn]

16 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

New case study of a detransitioner by a psychotherapist.

May be of interest. 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-5922.12711

This was an interesting read. I have no idea if this is a minority of cases or if transitioning/gender disphoria is often rooted in some unrelated & unworked-out psychological trauma. I found myself shocked and unhappy with the therapist's feelings, reactions, and opinions throughout the article. Kind of mad at her for "blaming" (my word) the patient's mom for the patient's every problem. I can only imagine the (additional) trauma on moms of trans kids if they were told it was their "fault" (again, my word) their kid felt they did not match the body they were born in.

Plus, thinking it was good for a daughter to anonymously troll her mom on social media to purposefully get the mom to lose her cool? Nope. Not a fan of this psychotherapist. But it was an interesting read and likely at leaat some of her points had merit for the mental health professionals to think about and possibly debate.

[livetoread]

34 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

This was an interesting read. I have no idea if this is a minority of cases or if transitioning/gender disphoria is often rooted in some unrelated & unworked-out psychological trauma. I found myself shocked and unhappy with the therapist's feelings, reactions, and opinions throughout the article. Kind of mad at her for "blaming" (my word) the patient's mom for the patient's every problem. I can only imagine the (additional) trauma on moms of trans kids if they were told it was their "fault" (again, my word) their kid felt they did not match the body they were born in.

Plus, thinking it was good for a daughter to anonymously troll her mom on social media to purposefully get the mom to lose her cool? Nope. Not a fan of this psychotherapist. But it was an interesting read and likely at leaat some of her points had merit for the mental health professionals to think about and possibly debate.

The therapist had a very heavy psychoanalytic approach which is not as common in the US (don't know if the therapist is US based but I'm guessing not). Many therapists here in the US hold psychoanalytic theory as loosely informative but their approach is more practical. Not to dis psychoanalytic theory but to use it as your basis for tx takes a highly engaged and self aware client with money, and even then, the results are mixed. Few therapists here would talk so openly about their psychoanalytic lens unless they were associated with a psychoanalytic institute. 

[HS Mom in NC]

36 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

Kind of mad at her for "blaming" (my word) the patient's mom for the patient's every problem. I can only imagine the (additional) trauma on moms of trans kids if they were told it was their "fault" (again, my word) their kid felt they did not match the body they were born in.

I agree with the psychologist in the assessment of severe attachment and grief issues, but I was very frustrated that there weren't adequate explanations that those are severe issues, not general significant personality conflicts in normal, healthy parent-child relationships.  I have an internationally adopted child and have a basic knowledge of trauma informed care and related attachment issues, but most readers won't and it will be easy for them to dismiss it as "just blame the mom" which isn't what the psychologist did, but it can look like it to people without the necessary background knowledge.  Aristotle warned us to know our audiences, and the author (or the source posting the article) should've known it wasn't for general audiences. They should've clarified and didn't.

[SanDiegoMom]

26 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

This was an interesting read. I have no idea if this is a minority of cases or if transitioning/gender disphoria is often rooted in some unrelated & unworked-out psychological trauma. I found myself shocked and unhappy with the therapist's feelings, reactions, and opinions throughout the article. Kind of mad at her for "blaming" (my word) the patient's mom for the patient's every problem. I can only imagine the (additional) trauma on moms of trans kids if they were told it was their "fault" (again, my word) their kid felt they did not match the body they were born in.

Plus, thinking it was good for a daughter to anonymously troll her mom on social media to purposefully get the mom to lose her cool? Nope. Not a fan of this psychotherapist. But it was an interesting read and likely at leaat some of her points had merit for the mental health professionals to think about and possibly debate.

Hmm, I didn't have quite the same reaction, though I did feel the trolling on social media wasn't the best outlet.  But I am probably drawing from my own past working through my eating disorder --  I was the same age and I definitely needed to work through my relationship with my mom.   It took working through that and blaming her to separate myself from her, then allowing me to come back as an adult and have an adult relationship with her.  We are very close now and I have no problem seeing her as a person who struggled to be a mom.

I have heard, in reference to the field of psychology, that there is "nothing new under the sun" -- ie that when there is a very new, shall we say, malady, that is affecting a large proportion of a population (in this instance as in many other time periods teen girls) then there it is just the same problems manifesting themselves through a new disorder.  

Teens have so many different ways to express a need for attention, or a cry for help.  I was listening to a podcast just yesterday with someone talking about his experience growing up, having his dad abandon him, his mom going to jail for drugs, time in foster care, eventual adoption and then rejection by his adoptive dad.  He went off the rails in high school with drugs and fighting -- he says now he realizes he was acting out in those ways to try to get his father to step back into his life.  In fact, Gender: A Wider Lens podcast has an episode with a detransitioner Helena who talks about her relationship (or lack thereof) with her parents and how identifying as trans was part of trying to get their attention.  

There is a new study of detransitioners giving their reasons for detransitioning. 70 percent said they detransitioned because they realized their gender dysphoria was related  to other issues. 

https://segm.org/first_large_study_of_detransitioners  

 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

There is a new study of detransitioners giving their reasons for detransitioning. 70 percent said they detransitioned because they realized their gender dysphoria was related  to other issues.

I agree that there are very often other issues underlying, but in the groups I know, it’s a very different presentation than in the article and I would expect vanishingly few of them to have serious parental issues like that young woman did. The kids dealing with this that I know most closely are all very close with their parents and their parents support them heavily, including through transition. The majority of those I know have neurodiversity and/or anxiety as comorbid issues.

[freesia]

41 minutes ago, KSera said:

I agree that there are very often other issues underlying, but in the groups I know, it’s a very different presentation than in the article and I would expect vanishingly few of them to have serious parental issues like that young woman did. The kids dealing with this that I know most closely are all very close with their parents and their parents support them heavily, including through transition. The majority of those I know have neurodiversity and/or anxiety as comorbid issues.

That’s what I am seeing, too. 100% of the kids have GAD or are autistic. 

[SanDiegoMom]

11 minutes ago, freesia said:

That’s what I am seeing, too. 100% of the kids have GAD or are autistic. 

Yeah, I don't know anyone irl other than my own kid, who last year probably would have been dx'ed GAD and got dx'ed ASD last January.   Thankfully the anxiety and depression are under control here and he's got so much else going on in his life that's positive.  And a new hyperfixation of chess, which is all consuming at the moment! 

[livetoread]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

I agree that there are very often other issues underlying, but in the groups I know, it’s a very different presentation than in the article and I would expect vanishingly few of them to have serious parental issues like that young woman did. The kids dealing with this that I know most closely are all very close with their parents and their parents support them heavily, including through transition. The majority of those I know have neurodiversity and/or anxiety as comorbid issues.

Me too. Close, supportive families, neurodiverse, and anxiety from childhood. 

[Terabith]

Weirdly, my oldest had no signs of anxiety all throughout childhood, despite both parents and a younger sister with severe anxiety disorders.  The anxiety hit when the gender dysphoria did.

What they did have, as a toddler, was sensory processing issues and a speech delay, but no signs of autism, and because of those two facts, we had them evaluated.  They had early intervention through toddler years, and we did a TON of physical activity to keep the sensory issues at bay until about age seven, when they seemed to go away until they came roaring back at 15, with the anxiety and gender stuff.  

I didn't see signs of ADHD or ASD growing up.  They had excellent executive functioning, but have started identifying as neurodiverse and saying they have less control over their focus.  I kinda lost it the other night and said, "And yet you had no trouble doing those things when you were in 8th grade."  Probably not great parenting, but I'd have felt like they could handle independent living and attending a mid range liberal arts college when they were 13, minus not having gotten through enough math yet.  I have a lot more doubts about them having the skills now.  

The sensory issues do seem to be a big part of everything though.  I've long thought they were tied up in all this in a major way.  And yet, OT for teens with sensory issues is completely nonexistent.  

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, RootAnn said:

This was an interesting read. I have no idea if this is a minority of cases or if transitioning/gender disphoria is often rooted in some unrelated & unworked-out psychological trauma. I found myself shocked and unhappy with the therapist's feelings, reactions, and opinions throughout the article. Kind of mad at her for "blaming" (my word) the patient's mom for the patient's every problem. I can only imagine the (additional) trauma on moms of trans kids if they were told it was their "fault" (again, my word) their kid felt they did not match the body they were born in.

Plus, thinking it was good for a daughter to anonymously troll her mom on social media to purposefully get the mom to lose her cool? Nope. Not a fan of this psychotherapist. But it was an interesting read and likely at leaat some of her points had merit for the mental health professionals to think about and possibly debate.

Psychotherapy is confronting. 

Idk. I've been in the position you mention (mom of a dysphoric kid) and to me, it's a relief when someone can locate the dysfunction in something that exists in the real world (family dynamics) and stop insisting on a metaphysics (soul in wrong body) that is nonsensical.

I don't know what my ds discussed in psychotherapy. I do know that he went into it blaming me for not affirming his sudden onset trans ID and came out of it returned to his functional, non-dysphoric, loving self, albeit with an anxiety + ADHD diagnosis. 

If he wanted to explore his feelings of blame towards me in the therapy room, that was ok with me. Therapy doesn't work if some emotions or attitudes are off-limits. 

The therapist's room is sometimes the only place we can feel authentically towards family members, particularly mothers. We can't drag the mother's potential feelings in with us. 

Point to note. This is n = 1. Just because, in this case study, family dynamics focused on the mother, were implicated in the dysphoria, doesn't mean that in all cases, mothers are to 'blame' for dysphoria. 

Anyway. I found it relieving to read, as a mother who has had dysphoric children.

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

I agree that there are very often other issues underlying, but in the groups I know, it’s a very different presentation than in the article and I would expect vanishingly few of them to have serious parental issues like that young woman did. The kids dealing with this that I know most closely are all very close with their parents and their parents support them heavily, including through transition. The majority of those I know have neurodiversity and/or anxiety as comorbid issues.

The heavy support + closeness, particularly with older teens/young adults, can be an issue, and can sometimes indicate that attachment is stuck somewhere. 

Almost any family relationship, good or bad, can be an avenue for psychotherapeutic investigation. Because family influences us, shapes us. 

 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

The heavy support + closeness, particularly with older teens/young adults, can be an issue, and can sometimes indicate that attachment is stuck somewhere. 

It can also be pretty typical for kids on the spectrum or with ADHD who tend to take longer to reach maturity. They tend to get there, but it can take a few more years. I also don’t mean they’re all super dependent (though some are), just that I see a very different profile by and large than in the article with the very dysfunctional/detached mother. The article seemed to suggest that as a common presentation. Maybe it is, it’s just not the one I’m seeing in those I know. 

[Catwoman]

On 11/10/2021 at 5:20 AM, Dynamite5 said:

Yes, I did start this and I'm sorry I backed out so early because I'm very passionate about this, but my very dear friend's husband died yesterday and it has taken all my energy. I typed and retyped answers to @HS Mom in NC but I couldn't say what I wanted to say to her and stay nice because of the other stuff swirling in my head. It was clear to me when I came back to the thread and she had accused me of having only a fundamental understanding of LGBTQ+ issues and you were proclaiming you were proud to have informed yourself about top surgery from a thread on a homeschooling forum that I wasn't even going to get you to listen and I needed to direct my emotional energy toward my friend and her children. I'm feeling like a terrible ally to have backed out, but I do only have so much emotional energy, sadly.

 

The last thing I will say is that you keep repeating that people are not receiving "actual medical advice" because of the use of the term top surgery. That is false. The use of the term top surgery does not prevent people from getting medical advice. 

@Dynamite5 — I’m very sorry to hear about your friend’s husband.  😞 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

It can also be pretty typical for kids on the spectrum or with ADHD who tend to take longer to reach maturity. They tend to get there, but it can take a few more years. I also don’t mean they’re all super dependent (though some are), just that I see a very different profile by and large than in the article with the very dysfunctional/detached mother. The article seemed to suggest that as a common presentation. Maybe it is, it’s just not the one I’m seeing in those I know. 

 

The case study suggests that there can be complex experiences, feelings and attitudes underneath sudden onset dysphoria. And that it's worth exploring those complexities, which will differ according to the individual. 

 

 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

The case study suggests that there can be complex experiences, feelings and attitudes underneath sudden onset dysphoria. And that it's worth exploring those complexities, which will differ according to the individual. 

 

 

I totally agree with exploring the feelings and attitudes underlying. That's one of the elements that I have found woefully unexplored by many therapists (I do know one transboy who seems to have a medical team who is doing all this work before any medicalization takes place. This seems by far the exception over the rule where I am, though.) I do see a tendency here for therapists to do the same dividing the young person from their family that is prevalent amongst the trans community as well.

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I totally agree with exploring the feelings and attitudes underlying. That's one of the elements that I have found woefully unexplored by many therapists (I do know one transboy who seems to have a medical team who is doing all this work before any medicalization takes place. This seems by far the exception over the rule where I am, though.) I do see a tendency here for therapists to do the same dividing the young person from their family that is prevalent amongst the trans community as well.

One thing I do appreciate about my oldest is that they don't like the LGBT support groups because they're all gripe fests about parents being awful.  I appreciate that they don't feel like that's their situation.  

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I totally agree with exploring the feelings and attitudes underlying. That's one of the elements that I have found woefully unexplored by many therapists (I do know one transboy who seems to have a medical team who is doing all this work before any medicalization takes place. This seems by far the exception over the rule where I am, though.) I do see a tendency here for therapists to do the same dividing the young person from their family that is prevalent amongst the trans community as well.

Affirmation only is cheaper, quicker and easier. Gets you short term 'successes'. Psychotherapeutic support is harder, slower and more costly to provide.

We were extremely fortunate in being able to access psychotherapy for ds through a psychiatrist, meaning we were reimbursed for most of his treatment.

My own psychotherapy is with a psychologist and is minimally reimbursed. I'm far from wealthy, and spend a good % of my income on therapy.

The cheaper, more superficial therapies (time limited CBT) don't work for everyone. I wish every child with a sudden onset dysphoria could access at least 12 months of psychotherapy. 

[1234]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

One thing I do appreciate about my oldest is that they don't like the LGBT support groups because they're all gripe fests about parents being awful.  I appreciate that they don't feel like that's their situation.  

This is what both of my dc have said as well. Youngest particularly hated their club in high school because it was just two hours of kids ranting about their parents and they couldn’t relate.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Joker2

[1234]

Oldest did two years of therapy after he came out. We had many sessions that included Dh and I because there were definitely issues. Most issues though pertained to us not being accepting enough in Ds’ eyes of him being trans. Fortunately the therapist wasn’t one that always took Ds’ side on that. We were all given the time we needed and it helped us all a great deal.

[KSera]

22 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

I know far more teens who have no plans of ever having children than who want them, and I do wonder if that plays into it. If you believe that you never want kids and that having kids is downright immoral, taking hormones or even undergoing surgery that causes sterility might be less a bug and more a feature in your mind-and potentially easier to get than for a cis woman who has not had children yet than to get a tubal. 

This is only very tangentially related, but I thought of this discussion when I read this thread about parents with fertility-related vaccine concerns. I was actually disturbed by so many of the comments suggesting it was bizarre for parents to give any thought to their child’s future fertility, as if that was inappropriate in some way. It made me think of this conversation and also about many parents putting their kids on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones without regard for what that means for their future sexual function. I actually find it more disturbing that parents think they can make decisions that affect those things for their children (fertility and/or sexual function), but that it’s inappropriate for them to think in any way about what those effects might be.

I would be very upset if my parents had discounted my future fertility as unimportant/inappropriate in making decisions for me as a child (which has nothing to do with Covid vaccines, which there is zero reason to expect fertility effects from, while the disease itself may well have such effects).