Fascinating article in The Economist about Detransitioners

[NewIma]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

This is a hard subject for me.  I have (a statistically unlikely) number of friends who are definitely, clearly trans and whose bodies that they were born with were simply wrong.  These people’s dysphoria was immediately and completely relieved by physical and social transitioning. Being trans genuinely was the source of their distress that had begun early on and been insistent and consistent despite social environments that were incredibly hostile towards trans folx. Frankly, @Mrs Tiggywinkle’s kid sounds like he’s in this category. 
 

I also think that somewhere around 2010 the social environment changed, and while greater acceptance of trans people was WONDERFUL, the pendulum swung too far.  Gate keeping for treatment went from far too stringent to, at least in some areas, nonexistent.  Any sense of not fitting into society or artificially strict gender roles became evidence of being on the trans spectrum.  My non binary kid does seem to have some real dysphoria around having breasts, but the claim to identity appears to be that when think about themselves, gender is not a central part.  They are “just them.”  Which, holy hell, if that’s the definition, I am nonbinary and about 70% of the people I know are.  I am so confused about how my kids who were raised with “every color is for everyone,” and “there are no boy toys or girl toys,” came to this belief that only wanting to wear makeup sometimes means you aren’t a woman. My youngest kid, who never really fit into strict gender roles but never questioned their identity, is fine with being female, but my kid who was all ballet, Barbies, frilly dresses, pink and purple (and still loves these things) is non-binary?  I am truly not transphobic, I don’t think, but I feel like the zillion categories that now exist create issues as well. 
 

I don’t think we’re going to get away without top surgery for my oldest, and I am worried about it because it’s so permanent.  I say this as someone who would have been perfectly happy to have had my own removed when I had a breast reduction.  I am worried that my oldest’s dysphoria is more related to fear of growing up than gender.  They have said they just want the body they had at ten.  And…that ship has sailed.  And the psychological therapists and doctors don’t want to explore any of that because they are terrified of being labeled transphobic if they don’t rubber stamp physical transition even for young teens, even if that’s not what is recommended by even trans health advocates.  
 

So, yeah. I think @ktgrok is right that both genuine trans people who need access to services and support exist and also that things have swung too far in terms of identity and gender roles.  There seems to be far less space for butch women and femme men than there used to be, and I think that’s really problematic.

All of this is on my mind A LOT.  We recently moved to another state (as you know Terabith) and I'm glad we did. Almost all of my 14dd's friends where we lived before identified as being somewhere on the LGBTQ spectrum, mostly with gender identity. I would say 70% of the conversations the kids would have with each other were about gender identity. We have trans friends. Being transgender is real. I don't think though that more than half of DD's friends that I've know since they were 5 are all biologically non-binary, gender fluid, or trans. It has to be cultural and I think a large part of it is that what it is to be a woman or a man has become even more rigid and limiting.  That is a big step back as a culture.

Our dd10 came out to us as a lesbian recently. This isn't a surprise to dh or I. I have a feeling she is going to be a more traditional butch lesbian. I'm so glad we moved, so she is not overhearing all of the gender identity conversations all the time. I worry that would make her think that because she is more masculine,  that means she must be trans. Women can be masculine and men can be feminine! 

 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, NewIma said:

All of this is on my mind A LOT.  We recently moved to another state (as you know Terabith) and I'm glad we did. Almost all of my 14dd's friends where we lived before identified as being somewhere on the LGBTQ spectrum, mostly with gender identity. I would say 70% of the conversations the kids would have with each other were about gender identity. We have trans friends. Being transgender is real. I don't think though that more than half of DD's friends that I've know since they were 5 are all biologically non-binary, gender fluid, or trans. It has to be cultural and I think a large part of it is that what it is to be a woman or a man has become even more rigid and limiting.  That is a big step back as a culture.

Our dd10 came out to us as a lesbian recently. This isn't a surprise to dh or I. I have a feeling she is going to be a more traditional butch lesbian. I'm so glad we moved, so she is not overhearing all of the gender identity conversations all the time. I worry that would make her think that because she is more masculine,  that means she must be trans. Women can be masculine and men can be feminine! 

 

EXACTLY!

My oldest was also 10 when they came out as a lesbian, and it also wasn't a surprise.  The gender identity stuff though was.  And frankly, it just seems statistically unlikely that so many kids are trans.  Something like 40% of the kids at my oldest's artsy high school are trans or nonbinary.  That just seems unlikely from a mathematical standpoint.  And I really hate that my kid is suffering from hating their br*asts so much, but I'd really prefer they waited a couple years into college before having them removed.  People's identities change so much during college, and it seems prudent to wait until the brain is more fully developed.  I'm not sure we can put it off longer though.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

4 hours ago, maize said:

What do you mean by this?

Is the person somehow different from their body?

Do you believe, say, that a pre-existing soul that was a male soul ended up in a female body? 

Or do you mean that part of the body (the brain presumably) has primarily male characteristics while the rest of the body is female (or vice versa) and how exactly would that happen as the same hormones that impact brain development impact physical development?

Aside from religious beliefs about souls (and mine is one of the few religions that does believe souls exist before the formation of a physical body, and also that souls are distinctly male or female) what does it mean to say someone is born in the wrong body? All parts of our body, including our brain, ARE the body.

Honestly? I don’t know.  But I know trans people who legimately believe and have said to me, “I was born into the wrong body.”  They do believe their brain is distinctly one gender and their body is another.  I am not trans, but I trust that that is how they feel.

I personally have a hard time with this, because I have never felt either male or female.  My body is female.  My body also makes more male hormones than other females and not enough female hormones. So I take Aldactone to stop the male hormone production and supplemental estrogen and progesterone that my body doesn’t want to make.  I am stronger than most females and could grow a beard if I wanted, but I also grew three babies.  But honestly I don’t feel like my brain has a gender and my body doesn’t seem to want to take sides. I don’t feel the need to label myself non-binary or female or male; I’m perfectly comfortable as I am. 

I am really hesitant about medical transitioning.  If DS6 grows up and wants that, it will have been a steady desire for his whole life and I will Support that, once he’s an adult. I’m hesitant before then.  I have an ex boyfriend who came out recently as a trans woman. She was able to get on hormones within weeks and is now planning both top and bottom surgery, which she hasn’t had difficulty obtaining. She’s married to a woman and there was never, ever any sign(we seriously dated for two years) that she thought of herself as anything but a man.  I do kind of think this is rushing it and she should take a few years to be sure that living the rest of her life as a female is a true desire.   But my own feelings about all the meds I take, which all have side effects, colors my view. 
 

My biggest thing is that I don’t want DS6 to think he must be a girl because he loves dresses and glitter.  His sister wouldn’t touch a dress with a ten foot pole, and I point out that some girls want pants and some boys want dresses and it’s all just a cultural construct.

[HS Mom in NC]

26 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I don't have a ton of experience; I just. joined a couple of asexuality facebook groups when I discovered that there were other people who were possibly like me, but holy crap.....not really.  Maybe it's partly a generational divide, but I'm like, "Dude, I was literally asking about this identity before the word even existed, so for you to tell me I don't belong because I have made different choices is seriously weird."  It really feels like identity politics and groups are mostly pretty toxic, whether online or in real life.  

I think that's another version of fundamentalist style thinking on an issue: there's only 1 narrowly defined, acceptable way to be a/an (insert type of person here.) Any other variation is heresy.

The US is plagued by that kind of thinking in all aspects of society and controversy sells, so media focuses on the most extreme views on either end of the spectrum. That's why it's so important to push back when we see or hear it.

[HS Mom in NC]

6 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

My biggest thing is that I don’t want DS6 to think he must be a girl because he loves dresses and glitter.  His sister wouldn’t touch a dress with a ten foot pole, and I point out that some girls want pants and some boys want dresses and it’s all just a cultural construct.

And men wore what we now call dresses all over the world for millennia (especially in Ancient times) and some still do while holding to extremely traditional views of gender roles.

[SanDiegoMom]

Some of the resources I have found helpful, many that link to studies and research, are:

 

https://gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/ Sasha Ayad and Stella O'malley, therapists to mostly gender questioning teens

https://genspect.org/  A worldwide support group for parents, which has a new statsforgender.org page linking to studies

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

https://www.genderhq.org/  "A RESOURCE & COMMUNITY FOR PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT SAME-SEX ATTRACTED YOUNG PEOPLE HARMED BY MEDICAL TRANSITION FOR GENDER DYSPHORIA"

Transparency Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/transparency/id1583333120   put out by two transmen Aaron Kimberly and Aaron Terrill, who also helped found the Gender Dysphoria Alliance in Canada  as a response to the increased medicalization of teens and young adults.   

---

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

Documentaries: 

https://archive.org/details/TransKidsItsTimeToTalk by Stella O'Malley

The Trans Train  Investigative journalists in Sweden have now produced three reports looking at the treatment given to those who seek gender transition, and who later regret their decision. All three parts are in Swedish with English subtitles.

Transmission: What's the Rush to Reassign Gender  

Dysphoric: A Four Part Documentary documenting the rise of gender identity ideology and it's affect on women and girls, especially in developing countries. 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

Books:

Trans by Helen Joyce about the ideology and the activism behind it

Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism by Kathleen Stock (and google Kathleen Stock to see what happens when activists go after people deemed transphobic) 

Gender Dysphoria: A Therapeutic Model for Working with Children, Adolescents and Young Adults by Susan Evans  who left the Tavistock Clinic in Britain because of safeguarding concerns surrounding the catastrophic rise in referrals (see Kiera Bell case vs the Tavistock)  

[ktgrok]

I also think it is possible to be both supportive of trans people, and also sad to see the diminishing diversity within each gender. 

[KSera]

@SanDiegoMomThanks for sharing resources. One thing that is frustrating to me is weeding through to figure out who’s trustworthy and who isn’t. Some of those are ones I am familiar with, but there are some others that seem to also be mixed up with certain right wing ideologies that make them unpalatable not just to me, but certainly it will cause many of those you recommend them to to throw the baby out with the bath water. If, for example, they read the Twitter feed of a trans man who is (sensibly) speaking out against early medicalization of kids, and then the next post is a pro DeSantis, anti vax tweet, many, many people are going lump the whole package together, and throw it all out. Which makes it counter productive to sharing new information that people might otherwise be open to learning. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

@maize I’m not the one you asked - and maybe her views are different - but I think in cases of what I call true transgenderism, it is likely that something having to do with inter-uterine hormones (I think it is called the hormone wash) can cause/promote a bunch of variations which include homosexual (eventual) orientation and gender dysphoria (“I’m in the wrong body”), as well as intersex genitalia. 
 

*Not a scientist or doctor*

I'm pretty sure the latest theory is to do with the perception areas of the brain. 

Hormone washes are not really evidenced. Someone told me about that theory when dd had dysphoria and it doesn't really make sense - a hormone wash that completely feminises the body but masculinizes the brain? No. That sort of relies on a brain-body split, which doesn't exist. 

The most recent study I read about desistance in childhood onset dysphoria shows what we already know - if you don't interfere with the natural processes of growth and sexual maturation, the majority desist, and of the desisters, a majority are gay or lesbian or sometimes bi. 

Hence why some of us don't want to engage in what we see as anti-LBG conversion therapy. For me to consider my dd at that time male, would have meant considering her straight  (female attracted).  Ethically, I could not engage in that. 

It's a concern being taken seriously  (along with the other downsides of pediatric transition). In my country, the main body of psychiatrists has just issed a position paper stating that they no longer recommend affirmation-only treatment for children and teens. 

Anyway, the woman in the article is very brave. Detransitioners get a lot of abuse when they speak up.

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

And frankly, the asexual community seem to be complete asshats who eat their own

One of my four children is asexual, and they would tell you, you are not wrong! It is very, very sad to me as their mom, by of course worse for them.

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

@SanDiegoMomThanks for sharing resources. One thing that is frustrating to me is weeding through to figure out who’s trustworthy and who isn’t. Some of those are ones I am familiar with, but there are some others that seem to also be mixed up with certain right wing ideologies that make them unpalatable not just to me, but certainly it will cause many of those you recommend them to to throw the baby out with the bath water. If, for example, they read the Twitter feed of a trans man who is (sensibly) speaking out against early medicalization of kids, and then the next post is a pro DeSantis, anti vax tweet, many, many people are going lump the whole package together, and throw it all out. Which makes it counter productive to sharing new information that people might otherwise be open to learning. 

Stock is a left wing philosophy professor. 

Joyce is a centre-left journalist at The Economist. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Stella O Malley is an Irish feminist psychotherapist. 

Sasha Ayad is a psychotherapist. 

All four are reliable resources who are politically 'safe' to consume if one votes D. 

I don't like to see them smeared as right wing because they're not. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, Dynamite5 said:

At face value, this is extremely offensive and dismissive. Perhaps you'd like to retract? 

It's a double mastectomy. It may or may not be 'horrible' but it is major surgery on a (usually) healthy part of the body. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[SanDiegoMom]

14 minutes ago, KSera said:

@SanDiegoMomThanks for sharing resources. One thing that is frustrating to me is weeding through to figure out who’s trustworthy and who isn’t. Some of those are ones I am familiar with, but there are some others that seem to also be mixed up with certain right wing ideologies that make them unpalatable not just to me, but certainly it will cause many of those you recommend them to to throw the baby out with the bath water. If, for example, they read the Twitter feed of a trans man who is (sensibly) speaking out against early medicalization of kids, and then the next post is a pro DeSantis, anti vax tweet, many, many people are going lump the whole package together, and throw it all out. Which makes it counter productive to sharing new information that people might otherwise be open to learning. 

Editing to this section: Yes, it is very frustrating, I agree.  A lot of people attempting to speak out have tried so many times to go to mainstream media sources and have been rejected, and so are forced to go to right leaning media to at least get the word out.   To be clear, most speaking out are left leaning -- it is just that the left leaning sources are not platforming them and so they have to resort to less mainstream and right leaning sources.  

Bari Weiss, who I don't agree with on many issues, published Abigail Shrier's article about Erica Anderson and Marci Bowers signalling their worries about trans care moving too fast and needing better evidence base in the US.  They are both top trans doctors (both trans themselves AND working in trans medicine).   They submitted it to the New York Times but it was refused.  There are plenty of affirmative trans articles in the NYT, but this one which is pretty darn important (these are some big name doctors) and it was passed over.  

They mention that the guidelines in the WPATH are being rewritten and hopefully will be released in a couple of months. (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) .   Dr. Anderson is the outgoing head and Dr. Bowers in the incoming one.  They seem to imply that stricter guidelines will be coming, and hopefully exploratory talk therapy will be at least equally platformed with affirmative therapy.  One can only hope. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by SanDiegoMom

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

To the first point, it was easily fully covered by insurance here. Many insurance companies consider “gender confirmation” treatments to be essential medical care and pay accordingly. I think this is problematic in the cases of treatments that introduce many new health problems that didn’t exist before the treatment, but that’s currently how it is. (And I don’t think “gender confirmation” as terminology has any scientific basis. This is treatment for gender dysphoria, not a confirmation of anything.) My own kid had a surgery letter within a couple months of seeing a therapist to get one and a hormone prescription was written by a doctor met only once, on the first appointment. Everything but deductible covered by insurance.

To the second point, if gender doesn’t go hand in hand with genitalia, that would seem to indicate there is no medical need to make genitals match gender. There seems to frequently be circular reasoning there. 
 

@Terabith’s posts resonate most strongly for me, as our experience is extremely similar with the issue not presenting in any way until after puberty, in a spectrum kid who mostly just didn’t want to have an adult body.

Insurance where you are may cover it. That is not the way it is every where. And for those on medicaid, access is heavily regulated at the state level. Point two I will take under advisement as I am still learning. However, I still think some of this is culturally made - ie penis means typical male societal things etc. - and wonder if some suffering could be eliminated by not gender sorting everything in our society, and if that in turn would help folks feel more comfortable with the bodies their bodies, not everyone of couse, but some. Again, I am willing to admit I am just learning. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, Terabith said:

I also am frustrated and somewhat frightened that in support groups for parents of trans kids, it is completely unacceptable to question anything your child says.  When people come and say, "I'm a little concerned that my kid, who never expressed any challenges with their gender until age 15, when they made a whole bunch of trans friends and started immersing themselves in youtube videos about various isms has suddenly decided that they must immediately transition," those parents are SHUT DOWN hard and told that if they question even to themselves whether this is genuine, that their child will commit suicide and that they are terrible, horrible, transphobic people.  There is absolutely no space (other than here) where reasoned, nuanced concerns can be addressed.  

I hate that we changed my kid's name.  I mean, I cannot express how much I hate it.  It is a source of major grief that I can no longer refer to them as daughter.  I hate that things like old pictures are incredibly fraught, and that I can't hang Christmas ornaments with their old name or put out the plates that they drew on with their old name.  I feel like not only was their entire childhood erased, but that my own experience as a mother was eliminated.  I hate that my understanding of how they experienced the world has been completely wrong.  I mean, not gender related, but when we sent my oldest to school in fourth grade, we took them to tour all of the options.  They picked the school to attend.  They repeatedly told everyone who would listen how much they loved their school.  They made up a song and a dance about how much they loved their school.  They got their little sister insanely jealous, so we sent her to school the next year.  They got up eagerly and excitedly to go to the school that they proclaimed they loved.  They seemed confident, competent, and comfortable in their skin the entire time they attended that school.  We offered the opportunity to change schools at least once while they were attending, but they turned us down.  But now they say they were miserable and it was the worst school ever. Like, how was I supposed to know???  I feel the same way about their gender identity.  You gave us NO SIGNS.  

And I hate that there is nowhere I can grieve that.  I cannot talk about it with my husband, who is terrified if we, even to ourselves, question the reality, because he is so terrified it will lead to fatal consequences.  I hate that I cannot even talk about it with my own therapist, because to do so is politically incorrect.  Weirdly, the only person in my real life who makes space for that is a trans friend, who is like, "Doctors sending you out of the room to ask your 15 year old if they want hormones against your will is wrong and contrary to trans affirming guidelines."  

I feel this. 

The LBGT group here absolutely destroyed me with their immediate 'oh you have a son now, you bigot, better change his name asap', a metaphorical two minutes after a female child with zero history of dysphoria in childhood was suddenly, and despite all observable evidence to the contrary,in the middle of a first mental health presentation, 'a man'. Wtf? Those posters will never know the damage they did. 

Luckily, the actual psychiatrists and social workers we saw were way, way better. Mostly because they didn't tell me to disbelieve my.lying eyes.

But yeah, peers are not where to find support, ime. 

My personal opinion is that if your therapist cannot deal with you expressing any ambivalence on this topic, you need a better therapist. 

You would probably like the podcast linked - Gender: A Wider Lens. 

A final point - suicide, which is what you are scared of, needs to be brought into the open. It can't be an axe over your head. As we both know, suicidality is painful to live with, but we have responsibities to ourselves and others to find ways of managing it. The same is true for our children. The suicide stats in this area are poor, and seem to be correlated to female + bi - though the rates are no higher than in any other mental illness in children and teens. 

 

 

[Dynamite5]

4 hours ago, EKS said:

So you don't like Quill calling it a mastectomy but don't mind me calling it and other gender affirming surgeries "mutilation"?

I called Quill out because she said 

9 hours ago, Quill said:

we in society politely call “top surgery” so it will not sound so horrible

and that, from my point of view is wrong (I posted a link to a very interesting and respectful article above, which discussed the nuances) and by saying "we in society politely" as though she doesn't really respect anyone transitioning, but she's going to pretend to, but using air quotes, perhaps when she says it, or rolls her eyes, perhaps behind the person's back. 

We do this all the time with words. We no longer call people retarded or Negro--but we certainly don't roll our eyes and say, "We in society politely say "special needs" or "black"" when discussing one of those populations without knowing we've crossed a line. I think Quill is dismissing transgender folks and I'm calling her out. 

As for you @EKS saying that I don't mind you calling surgeries mutilation, I have no idea where you got that idea. I said:

5 hours ago, EKS said:

My MIL and SIL and several friends I know have had breast reduction surgery. I would never refer to that as mutilation. It was something they needed to do to be comfortable in their own bodies. 

I clearly said I would NEVER call that mutilation. Perhaps I'm not seeing what you are seeing? 

[Dynamite5]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

That is the discussion that informed my view on calling it “top surgery,” yes. I do not see how it is offensive to call it a double mastectomy. That is what it factually is. What purpose is served by calling it “top surgery,” other than minimizing the seriousness and removing an association with removing *diseased* tissue? 

I posted a link above that helps explain much better than I can. There are nuances involved. The purpose, to most allies, in using respectful terms, is just that, respect. 

It's clear you don't approve. I get that. I'm sorry. But I don't have the emotional energy today to help you see that it is, indeed, offensive. 

[maize]

So, a bit of a side-trail but one of my kids reported to me recently that in their peer-group "gay" and "straight" are being defined by gender stereotypes. So, a girl who doesn't like pink must be gay, and a boy who doesn't like football must be gay, and to be straight you have to fit the most stereotypical presentation for your gender.

Which makes me wonder just how very confusing being immersed in sexuality and gender identity stuff at an age when they really have no context for most of it must be.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Dynamite5 said:

I posted a link above that helps explain much better than I can. There are nuances involved. The purpose, to most allies, in using respectful terms, is just that, respect. 

It's clear you don't approve. I get that. I'm sorry. But I don't have the emotional energy today to help you see that it is, indeed, offensive. 

Ok. 🤷🏻‍♀️ You started this dust-up, but if you don’t have the energy to continue with it, you’re excused. 
 

It is not the same as your examples. You don’t spare someone’s feelings by failing to give them actual medical information that affects their body permanently. I think saying “top surgery” is an intentional attempt to make it seem like no big deal, like having a mole lasered off. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Stella O Malley is an Irish feminist psychotherapist. 

Sasha Ayad is a psychotherapist. 

All four are reliable resources who are politically 'safe' to consume if one votes D. 

I don't like to see them smeared as right wing because they're not. 

Oh, totally. I didn’t mean everyone was. But there is a mix in there. I happened to follow one of the links above and saw some interesting posts I agreed with, but then the same person was posting wacko anti vac stuff, and while I’m grounded enough in where I am on both issues that it doesn’t change my mind on either, for people who have thus far been in the affirm at all costs group and are just exploring other viewpoints, I expect for most, that kind of pairing would just reaffirm their existing views. 

55 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Editing to this section: Yes, it is very frustrating, I agree.  A lot of people attempting to speak out have tried so many times to go to mainstream media sources and have been rejected, and so are forced to go to right leaning media to at least get the word out.   To be clear, most speaking out are left leaning -- it is just that the left leaning sources are not platforming them and so they have to resort to less mainstream and right leaning sources.  

Bari Weiss, who I don't agree with on many issues, published Abigail Shrier's article about Erica Anderson and Marci Bowers signalling their worries about trans care moving too fast and needing better evidence base in the US.  

I agree this is a major issue. Probably one of the main things preventing an honest look at this issue, and that is really distressing and disappointing. Hopefully new WPATH standards will make this an allowable topic for unbiased reporting. 

50 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

However, I still think some of this is culturally made - ie penis means typical male societal things etc. - and wonder if some suffering could be eliminated by not gender sorting everything in our society, and if that in turn would help folks feel more comfortable with the bodies their bodies, not everyone of couse, but some. Again, I am willing to admit I am just learning. 

I think maybe I’m saying the opposite of what you thought, or something. I agree that the gender stereotypes are making this worse. On the bolded, I’m saying the physical body shouldn’t indicate anything about what kind of person someone is supposed to be, which would mean for most people, there would be no need to have damaging surgeries to try to make the body match with a gender stereotype. People should be who they are. It shouldn’t require changing their body in order for them to be who they want to be. Obviously, there will be some people with body dysphoria so great that they require medical treatment for relief of that. But it would be great not to shuttle so many people down the medical path by normalizing other options rather than normalizing medicalization as a first choice. 

[SanDiegoMom]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Ok. 🤷🏻‍♀️ You started this dust-up, but if you don’t have the energy to continue with it, you’re excused. 
 

It is not the same as your examples. You don’t spare someone’s feelings by failing to give them actual medical information that affects their body permanently. I think saying “top surgery” is an intentional attempt to make it seem like no big deal, like having a mole lasered off. 

I'm quoting you, Quill, as I can see Dynamite5 might be coming from a place of pain that might not be helped by this discussion....

but here is an example of what I feel is not only damaging euphemisms but also deliberate targeting of a younger population.  This doctor uses instagram and tiktok to post short informational videos about her surgeries.   She uses music, medium and verbiage that is deliberately chosen to appeal to a young demographic.  She calls mastectomies "teetus deletus" .

https://twitter.com/i/status/1360643229465468932

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by SanDiegoMom

[Jenny in Florida]

6 hours ago, Quill said:

No, I do not retract. As a breast cancer survivor who was advised it was unnecessary for me to have a double mastectomy to improve my prognosis, I do believe it is euphemized as “top surgery” for FTM transitioners so as to minimize the *fact* that both breasts are being surgically removed. Words serve purposes. The medical term for the surgical procedure of removing both breasts is a double mastectomy, it is not “top surgery”. 

For what it's worth (which may be nothing, since everyone's experience with their own body is different), I am also a breast cancer survivor, but I had a double mastectomy. I have no problem at all with the term "top surgery," largely because I know it is the preferred term for the individuals I know who have had the procedure.

For their own bodies, they get to choose their own terminology.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, maize said:

So, a bit of a side-trail but one of my kids reported to me recently that in their peer-group "gay" and "straight" are being defined by gender stereotypes. So, a girl who doesn't like pink must be gay, and a boy who doesn't like football must be gay, and to be straight you have to fit the most stereotypical presentation for your gender.

Which makes me wonder just how very confusing being immersed in sexuality and gender identity stuff at an age when they really have no context for most of it must be.

Yes, I had to go over and over the facts with my kids.  They kept mixing up sexual orientation with gender identity.  That on top of the fact that their sources are using 1950s stereotypes to define genders.  And any time I addressed their confusion, I was dismissed as being "transphobic."  So if I say girls don't have to like make-up and boys can, I'm transphobic.

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Ok. 🤷🏻‍♀️ You started this dust-up, but if you don’t have the energy to continue with it, you’re excused. 
 

It is not the same as your examples. You don’t spare someone’s feelings by failing to give them actual medical information that affects their body permanently. I think saying “top surgery” is an intentional attempt to make it seem like no big deal, like having a mole lasered off. 

Look, I don't know anyone who has gone through surgery who hasn't been informed by their doctors just how serious a decision this is. It's not about "sparing someone's feelings," but about respecting their choices that affect their own bodies.

[Melissa Louise]

43 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, totally. I didn’t mean everyone was. But there is a mix in there. I happened to follow one of the links above and saw some interesting posts I agreed with, but then the same person was posting wacko anti vac stuff, and while I’m grounded enough in where I am on both issues that it doesn’t change my mind on either, for people who have thus far been in the affirm at all costs group and are just exploring other viewpoints, I expect for most, that kind of pairing would just reaffirm their existing views. 

I agree this is a major issue. Probably one of the main things preventing an honest look at this issue, and that is really distressing and disappointing. Hopefully new WPATH standards will make this an allowable topic for unbiased reporting. 

I think maybe I’m saying the opposite of what you thought, or something. I agree that the gender stereotypes are making this worse. On the bolded, I’m saying the physical body shouldn’t indicate anything about what kind of person someone is supposed to be, which would mean for most people, there would be no need to have damaging surgeries to try to make the body match with a gender stereotype. People should be who they are. It shouldn’t require changing their body in order for them to be who they want to be. Obviously, there will be some people with body dysphoria so great that they require medical treatment for relief of that. But it would be great not to shuttle so many people down the medical path by normalizing other options rather than normalizing medicalization as a first choice. 

Joyce, Stock, Ayad and O'Malley are not anti vax. Or right wing. Or anything else nice people don't like. 

Stock and Ayad are very moderate on trans issues, also...for lurkers. Joyce and O'Malley more forthright. 

Random people with tweets, yeah, sure. Wild mix. 

 

[Terabith]

More thinking about top surgery in particular, but applicable ramblings to other forms of medical and surgical transitions....

I find myself wondering what is the difference between body modification to deal with dysphoria, such as top surgery, and other body modification for aesthetic reasons?  I had a breast reduction surgery eight years ago because my (very) large boobs were actually causing significant spinal deformity.  Doctors had started recommending a reduction to me when I was 12 years old, and I put it off until my late 30's, because nursing my children was very important to me, but I did absolutely hate them, and I do have lasting damage from their weight.  The surgeon flat out refused to make my boobs as small as I would have liked (I argued for a C cup; I'm still slightly larger than a DD), but I no longer look like a circus freak.  Having boobs that large and looking like a circus freak really did cause psychological damage for me.  How is it different for my kid whose boobs cause them significant discomfort?  They aren't a size K like I was, but a DD on a 120 lb frame is large enough that sports bras and binders don't work.  

It seems like there is a line between bodily modification that is psychologically driven and should be addressed by therapy versus bodily modification that just changing the body alleviates the discomfort, but I honestly don't know where that line is.  

[Jenny in Florida]

It occurs to me, also, that the whole mastectomy/top surgery vocab thing may involve making a distinction between the goals. A person undergoing gender confirmation may not relate to the term "mastectomy," because it implies (for many people) removal of breast tissue due to cancer. "Top surgery" makes it clear why the person is having the breasts removed.

[Faith-manor]

47 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

I think maybe I’m saying the opposite of what you thought, or something. I agree that the gender stereotypes are making this worse. On the bolded, I’m saying the physical body shouldn’t indicate anything about what kind of person someone is supposed to be, which would mean for most people, there would be no need to have damaging surgeries to try to make the body match with a gender stereotype. People should be who they are. It shouldn’t require changing their body in order for them to be who they want to be. Obviously, there will be some people with body dysphoria so great that they require medical treatment for relief of that. But it would be great not to shuttle so many people down the medical path by normalizing other options rather than normalizing medicalization as a first choice. 

I am relatively new to all of this and still learning. So I probably do not communicate well. No worries. I may bow out of the discussion and just read the thread to try to learn more of the nuances. That said, my asexual child who is actually comfortable with sex identity assigned at birth just not interested in actual sexual relationship has not found a home at all with the LGBTQ community nor other asexuals because it isn't acceptable in that community on that college campus to be asexual and not also come out as transgender. It is very frustrating and isolating for my child.

[Melissa Louise]

I have always been ethically consistent on elective cosmetic surgery* - I don't believe it can be justified in terms of using health resources, and I think it harms us as a society. Elective double mastectomies, undertaken for cosmetic reasons, fall into the same category for me. I'm not a huge believer in fixing things from the outside in, anyway. It's personal - I rejected a cosmetic surgery for an issue I have at ten - because part of me knew it was better to learn to live with the body I had. 

*Not the same as reconstructive surgery or surgery taken to avoid b/cancer or for reasons of health (reduction). 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

I am relatively new to all of this and still learning. So I probably do not communicate well. No worries. I may bow out of the discussion and just read the thread to try to learn more of the nuances. That said, my asexual child who is actually comfortable with sex identity assigned at birth just not interested in actual sexual relationship has not found a home at all with the LGBTQ community nor other asexuals because it isn't acceptable in that community on that college campus to be asexual and not also come out as transgender. It is very frustrating and isolating for my child.

My long time lesbian dd has no place in the LGBT groups on campus. She's not a TERF like her mom, but she is also same sex, not same gender, attracted. That's not cool anymore, apparently; pan is the sexuality approved of. 

She gets way more support from her straight friends, sadly - or luckily. 

[MEmama]

9 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I am relatively new to all of this and still learning. So I probably do not communicate well. No worries. I may bow out of the discussion and just read the thread to try to learn more of the nuances. That said, my asexual child who is actually comfortable with sex identity assigned at birth just not interested in actual sexual relationship has not found a home at all with the LGBTQ community nor other asexuals because it isn't acceptable in that community on that college campus to be asexual and not also come out as transgender. It is very frustrating and isolating for my child.

I think asexuality is slowly becoming more accepted in the LGBTQ+ community; unfortunately there are always gatekeepers (even bisexuality isn’t always accepted) but overall I’m seeing it have a bit of a moment as more people are finding the language.  Has she explored the subreddits on Reddit? Some of the communities there are very open and accepting. Truthfully it’s hard for most queer people to find their tribe, but that’s a place I’d recommend for commaderie and support.

Edited November 9, 2021 by MEmama

[HS Mom in NC]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have always been ethically consistent on elective cosmetic surgery* - I don't believe it can be justified in terms of using health resources, and I think it harms us as a society. Elective double mastectomies, undertaken for cosmetic reasons, fall into the same category for me. I'm not a huge believer in fixing things from the outside in, anyway. It's personal - I rejected a cosmetic surgery for an issue I have at ten - because part of me knew it was better to learn to live with the body I had. 

*Not the same as reconstructive surgery or surgery taken to avoid b/cancer or for reasons of health (reduction). 

My husband had purely elective cosmetic surgery for a "wandering eye" that was just noticeably misaligned both at age 5 and then at age 30 as an adult when it got noticeable again. He was perfectly comfortable with it as an adult, but got tired to having to hold people's hand emotionally through dealing with him because they weren't sure where to look, they awkwardly avoided  using the word eye around him, they would panic if they caught themselves staring at it trying to figure out what to say and do. It was particularly annoying in a professional setting. We don't live in a fantasy world where people shouldn't care or worry about it-we live in the real world where even in the better case scenarios people make it weird being overly cautious out of good intentions.  It's absolutely justified in terms of using health services to take that burden off of people with abnormalities.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

My husband had purely elective cosmetic surgery for a "wandering eye" that was just noticeably misaligned both at age 5 and then at age 30 as an adult when it got noticeable again. He was perfectly comfortable with it as an adult, but got tired to having to hold people's hand emotionally through dealing with him because they weren't sure where to look, they awkwardly avoided  using the word eye around him, they would panic if they caught themselves staring at it trying to figure out what to say and do. It was particularly annoying in a professional setting. We don't live in a fantasy world where people shouldn't care or worry about it-we live in the real world where even in the better case scenarios people make it weird being overly cautious out of good intentions.  It's absolutely justified in terms of using health services to take that burden off of people with abnormalities.

For me, it isn't. 

As I said, this is not a hypothetical for me. 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have always been ethically consistent on elective cosmetic surgery* - I don't believe it can be justified in terms of using health resources, and I think it harms us as a society. Elective double mastectomies, undertaken for cosmetic reasons, fall into the same category for me. I'm not a huge believer in fixing things from the outside in, anyway. It's personal - I rejected a cosmetic surgery for an issue I have at ten - because part of me knew it was better to learn to live with the body I had. 

*Not the same as reconstructive surgery or surgery taken to avoid b/cancer or for reasons of health (reduction). 

I feel the same way. 

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

She's not a TERF like her mom, but she is also same sex, not same gender, attracted. That's not cool anymore, apparently

Isn’t that an understatement. It’s super disturbing to me when I read people lashing out against those for whom biological sex is part of their same sex attraction (usually always people who think lesbians are bigots if they won’t have sex with people who have male genitalia). Most recently in response to a BBC article on the subject. I’m pretty sure we all remember gay people fought long and hard for it to be accepted that their attraction to the same sex was innate and not a choice and now they’re being told that they are wrong if they’re not willing to have sex with people of any biological sex, Which basically erases that which they fight for. And people get so aggressive about it! It’s seriously distressing. 

13 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

 It's absolutely justified in terms of using health services to take that burden off of people with abnormalities.

But we weren’t talking about abnormalities. That’s a different thing entirely. We were talking about surgeries which actually decrease function. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by KSera
Bad typo!

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

It occurs to me, also, that the whole mastectomy/top surgery vocab thing may involve making a distinction between the goals. A person undergoing gender confirmation may not relate to the term "mastectomy," because it implies (for many people) removal of breast tissue due to cancer. "Top surgery" makes it clear why the person is having the breasts removed.

Yes, I understand that, but I also think that is what allows people to conflate “it’s not the same thing” with “it’s not as serious a thing.” I think young people in particular are prone to selectively not hearing warnings about what they are actually doing by removing functional organs and the implications of that for the rest of their lives - if they are actually advised to begin with. 
 

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Yes, I had to go over and over the facts with my kids.  They kept mixing up sexual orientation with gender identity.  That on top of the fact that their sources are using 1950s stereotypes to define genders.  And any time I addressed their confusion, I was dismissed as being "transphobic."  So if I say girls don't have to like make-up and boys can, I'm transphobic.

Yes!!! I showed my kids recently some photos of the "hair" metal bands I listened to as a teenager and they were blown away that men were wearing makeup, had long hair, wore pink, etc. 

I hate that we may lose that - that guys won't feel comfortable exploring say, eyeliner or frilly clothes or whatever makes them happy without having to identify as trans. 

And I HATE that one of my kids whot doesn't fit the gender stereotype may feel pressured to identify as trans, vs just their own self. 

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

*Not the same as reconstructive surgery or surgery taken to avoid b/cancer or for reasons of health (reduction). 

I'm curious about why reconstructive surgery meets your standard but "top surgery" does not? Don't both relate to the person's view of/relationship with their body?

(And, in the interest of full disclosure, this is also "not theoretical" for me. I opted for a double mastectomy, although only one of my breasts was affected, for a mix of reasons having to do with long-term medical concerns and my personal comfort. And I chose not to have reconstructive surgery.)

Edited November 9, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[maize]

14 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

 

Nevermind I misread.

Edited November 10, 2021 by maize

[Carrie12345]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yes!!! I showed my kids recently some photos of the "hair" metal bands I listened to as a teenager and they were blown away that men were wearing makeup, had long hair, wore pink, etc. 

I hate that we may lose that - that guys won't feel comfortable exploring say, eyeliner or frilly clothes or whatever makes them happy without having to identify as trans. 

And I HATE that one of my kids whot doesn't fit the gender stereotype may feel pressured to identify as trans, vs just their own self. 

Part off me doesn’t want to go off on a tangent, but the other part does, lol.

I also recently went through hair band education 😆 with my young adult daughters. Zero reaction to the style, 100% disgust with the misogyny those pretty men housed.  

In all my child rearing years, there have been so few issues of gender norms brought to my attention by my kids (and they all would have divulged that by now if they had noticed it in their earlier years.) So, is that a regional issue? An individual social circle issue? Aside from, say, Old Uncle Bob commenting on a boy’s nail polish, I have not witnessed rabid gender stereotypes since somewhere around 1996/7. But I haven’t really ventured out of NY/NJ/PA/ATL in that time. Even for the Uber religious families I know, who intentionally live normative gender roles, they’ve never expressed disapproval of the many “non-normative” kids in our circle.
 

Some comments make me wonder if I’m walking around with blinders on or something. 

[Lecka]

We moved recently and my high school son was involved in drama/theater.  
 

Where we used to live, it’s fair to say it’s likely there were several gay boys involved in drama/theater, at minimum.  But it was not this pervasive thing.

 

Where we have moved to, every single person involved in drama/theater is non-binary. 

 

We foolishly thought our son might meet a potential girlfriend in drama/theater.  Forget that here — it’s all non-binary.

 

He is not doing drama/theater this year, and neither are his friends in it from last year, except for one boy who — when I have given him rides I would not be surprised if he is gay.

My son has just moved on, there is no place for him.  And it’s not only that, in our new town the teacher is a lot bossier and more rigid, and the practices run later at night.  They demand a greater commitment than he is going to make when he is doing stage crew and he cares about other things going on in school.

 

Still for that one boy we gave rides to last year, I could see it being the only place he fit in in the entire school.

 

And my son has gotten involved now in a STEM club and a frisbee golf club, and they are both 90%+ male, so same difference as far as having potential for a girlfriend.

 

It is just less surprising to us as parents, because we can see they are heavily male clubs.  Theater/drama had a lot of girls but they were all non-binary (according to my son).  
 

It was a good experience for him though, even though he didn’t totally fit in.  But we are glad he is trying different things, even though if we hadn’t moved we are sure he would have stayed involved with drama/theater.  It is just different with moving.  
 

My husband’s best friend from high school is trans-gender but it was a different experience for her.  They went to a hard-core unaccredited Christian school.  

[Terabith]

So, I brought up with my nonbinary teen that it seems to me like gender roles are more fixed than they were 20 or 30 years ago, and that there is less space for butch women and femme boys, and my kid was like, "That is absolutely not true at all."  They say there are no gender roles, that gender roles have nothing to do with gender identity (which, good, but I thought was obvious?) but they said that people who are trans no longer feel like they have to "be" butch or femme boys.  Which, probably is true in some instances, but I am still skeptical, given percentages of trans and non binary people I'm seeing.  

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, I brought up with my nonbinary teen that it seems to me like gender roles are more fixed than they were 20 or 30 years ago, and that there is less space for butch women and femme boys, and my kid was like, "That is absolutely not true at all."  They say there are no gender roles, that gender roles have nothing to do with gender identity (which, good, but I thought was obvious?) but they said that people who are trans no longer feel like they have to "be" butch or femme boys.  Which, probably is true in some instances, but I am still skeptical, given percentages of trans and non binary people I'm seeing.  

Our non binary kids finally diverge 😁. Mine has a pretty different take than that. They feel that for themself at least, they would have to be a certain girly way to be a girl. And they don’t feel they can do that well, so then they wouldn’t be doing a good job at being a girl, which would make them feel badly about themself (this is a perfectionist kid). They have said they would actually have liked to be butch, but they “can’t” because they are bi and not lesbian, and only lesbians can be butch apparently 🤷‍♀️. 

[Terabith]

Just now, KSera said:

Our non binary kids finally diverge 😁. Mine has a pretty different take than that. They feel that for themself at least, they would have to be a certain girly way to be a girl. And they don’t feel they can do that well, so then they wouldn’t be doing a good job at being a girl, which would make them feel badly about themself (this is a perfectionist kid). They have said they would actually have liked to be butch, but they “can’t” because they are bi and not lesbian, and only lesbians can be butch apparently 🤷‍♀️. 

That's incredibly sad that they feel that way.  Wow.  And that had to be so hard for you to hear!

[1234]

Just now, Terabith said:

So, I brought up with my nonbinary teen that it seems to me like gender roles are more fixed than they were 20 or 30 years ago, and that there is less space for butch women and femme boys, and my kid was like, "That is absolutely not true at all."  They say there are no gender roles, that gender roles have nothing to do with gender identity (which, good, but I thought was obvious?) but they said that people who are trans no longer feel like they have to "be" butch or femme boys.  Which, probably is true in some instances, but I am still skeptical, given percentages of trans and non binary people I'm seeing.  

This is definitely true in my circles. Ds is trans but has no desire to be masculine in appearance. Sometimes I feel he’s trying to go out of his to not be masculine to prove a point but he’s just being himself. We honestly don’t see the explosion in trans and non binary kids/young adults others are seeing as my two ds don’t know many others here like them. They have many LGBTQ+ friends but not that many are trans or nonbinary. My two definitely don’t feel a need to fit any mold and say they are just being who they feel they are. 

I mentioned in another thread that Ds no longer feels that top surgery is a given. He may change his mind but for now, six years after coming out and at 22, this is where he’s at. I’ve talked with him about detransitioners but he still feels solid on who he is. Honestly, even if he did, I wouldn’t regret the last six years because he’s still here. 

IDK, my dc are happy and healthy now at 20 and 22. It’s been a really hard road but things are good now so I just don’t get so caught up in all this stuff now. 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

That's incredibly sad that they feel that way.  Wow.  And that had to be so hard for you to hear!

Yes. They are awesome just as they are and I just want them to know that. On the other hand, the trans community is where they have been able to find friends, which I’m really glad they have. They pull off the butch look fantastically though, so I wish they hadn’t felt that was off limits due to being bi (and ace). 

[maize]

20 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, I brought up with my nonbinary teen that it seems to me like gender roles are more fixed than they were 20 or 30 years ago, and that there is less space for butch women and femme boys, and my kid was like, "That is absolutely not true at all."  They say there are no gender roles, that gender roles have nothing to do with gender identity (which, good, but I thought was obvious?) but they said that people who are trans no longer feel like they have to "be" butch or femme boys.  Which, probably is true in some instances, but I am still skeptical, given percentages of trans and non binary people I'm seeing.  

This is what I am seeing. For some kids at least this all seems to be about a kind of "finding the right box"--like there are a bunch of identity boxes out there and they feel a need to fit into one of them, with a nice tidy label and a set of characteristics they are comfortable conforming to.