Thoughts on Logic of English

[Fun in the Son]

I was lurking on the Logic of English Facebook page and saw a post where a mom was saying that she has gone through to D foundations and their child was still not reading well. 

She was given loads of advice but there are two things that stood out to me:

1. A few people on the group mentioned that their children were struggling through reading ( I don't know if the post just attracted that sort of  traffic).

2. Someone mentioned that LOE is actually not a great curriculum for teaching reading and that they had to change and that's when they saw a change.

My question is, what has been your experience with LOE, I have began A with my son, but haven't gone far, but already we are doing phonograms. We did kick off with a bit of jolly phonics. 

Do you think its worth the investment. Do children really need to get to D in order to begin reading decently?

[EmilyGF]

I did A and B (I think?) with one of my kids and then resold it. 

I find it meh. I already knew how to use Spalding (WRTR) and SWR and think those systems are much more flexible. It might be useful for someone who hasn't learned to use Spalding. 

What really helped my bad speller was Apples and Pears. And their reading program, Dancing Bears, is wonderful, easy, low-overhead, etc. That is my favorite all-purpose, easy, get-it-done reading and spelling curriculum.

That said, oldest son did great with Spalding as a spelling program. Oldest daughter, who is quite gifted, hated it and couldn't learn from it; she needs to intuit things for herself or she forgets them. Spalding (and LOE) doesn't let kids build their own systems. I bought LOE for middle daughter, who tends to have a hard time spelling. It didn't really help her, but Apples and Pears did.

Emily

[Ellie]

9 hours ago, Fun in the Son said:

I was lurking on the Logic of English Facebook page and saw a post where a mom was saying that she has gone through to D foundations and their child was still not reading well. 

She was given loads of advice but there are two things that stood out to me:

1. A few people on the group mentioned that their children were struggling through reading ( I don't know if the post just attracted that sort of  traffic).

2. Someone mentioned that LOE is actually not a great curriculum for teaching reading and that they had to change and that's when they saw a change.

My question is, what has been your experience with LOE, I have began A with my son, but haven't gone far, but already we are doing phonograms. We did kick off with a bit of jolly phonics. 

Do you think its worth the investment. Do children really need to get to D in order to begin reading decently?

2. I don't know why LOE wouldn't be considered a "great curriculum for teaching reading," as that is exactly what it does: teaches reading by teaching spelling. Some children will not like it, and a different approach might be better, but that doesn't mean that LOE isn't a "great curriculum for reading."

I will say that you will have more success with LOE if you follow it as closely as possible instead of making modifications that you think might be better. I promise you they are not. 🙂 If you feel the need to make modifications, or to add in something else, then maybe LOE isn't the right method for *you.*

Personally, I prefer Spalding over LOE; it teaches everything that LOE does but with less fanfare, and with fewer moving parts, and for much less money.

[kirstenhill]

I taught my middle two kids to read using Logic of English primarily.  I was a beta tester for Foundations when DS14 was in K, but we didn't start with it until a few months into the school year (as I recall, I was in a late batch of beta testers).  We did a few months of another program before I got LOE Foundations.  Level D had not yet been completed at this time, so he went through what became A-C after some changes were incorporated from feedback.  I wouldn't say he was a fluent reader after C  at the end of Kindy, but he was a decent reader and just needed more practice. DS12 went through A-C by the end of K as well, and then did D in 1st grade.  He was a more skilled reader than DS14 was at the same age, and we did D more because it was fun than because he needed it to improve in reading.  

DS10 was another story all together.  He didn't progress very much after level A, despite going through level B twice and the first part of C at least twice.  He was diagnosed with dyslexia (after this time of using LOE for 2+ years) and LOE was just too fast paced for him and not explicit enough.  Learning all the phonogram sounds all at once for each phonogram did not work at all for him, and he needed to practice each sound one at a time to learn all the sounds.  

I think some of the people you see in the facebook user group with struggling kids probably have students who are dyslexic or have other learning difficulties (whether they realize it or not) and these kids probably need more intense intervention. (Some people make LOE work with mildly dyslexic kids, but for kids with more moderate to severe dyslexia, it's probably not going to be a good fit.)  Also, like everything, not every program is a good fit for every kid.   And some parents don't implement it will or are inconsistent in actually doing the program.  

I think it's a great program that people should consider, as it definitely provides solid instructions and is fun for kids! If you are already doing it and liking it, I wouldn't say that other people having kids that struggle despite using it is a reason to quit.  See how your child does...especially once you get into Level B, when the reading instruction really takes off.

Edited November 9, 2021 by kirstenhill
clarification

[Fun in the Son]

Thank you for this.

I guess my struggle is that it is not a low cost curriculum and I wouldn't want to invest big bucks into something that works soso. This is a helpful comment though. I really appreciate it.

[EmilyGF]

15 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

I think it's a great program that people should consider, as it definitely provides solid instructions and is fun for kids! If you are already doing it and liking it, I wouldn't say that other people having kids that struggle despite using it is a reason to quit.  See how your child does...especially once you get into Level B, when the reading instruction really takes off.

So true! The more something isn't working for you, generally, the more you talk. The people who are having lots of success generally just use the program and go on with their lives. 

[BusyMom5]

I have A, B, and C and have used them with 3 kids, and plan to use it my littlest in the next year or so.  She is currently 4, and while she loves school and says she wants to learn to read, I know she isn't quite ready yet.  She does do letter sound recognition,  we started rhyming, a tried syllables but that was confusing.  Sometimes parents start a reading program before the child is really ready brain-wise, so read upon pre-reading skills and be sure he's ready before you start. 

Now, how did I use LOE?  I start A snd we do allow it (usually can get through it by Christmas if child is ready and already knows basic letter sounds).  I can do about 2 lessons a week, and we play phonics card games every day.  Once we get to the end of the book, we work on fluency.  I have not scene z program that gives you enough material for this (tried AAR, too).  You will need to look at your library, check for used anthology sets on Ebay or Amazon, printable cvc word booklets, etc.  Lots of ways to work on fluency the second half of the year.  Once your student is reading those types of books fluently (that means no sounding out,  steady pace), start book B and go until you get to cvc-e words.  Pause a few months (yes, again) and work on fluency again.  Usually in these books the child will be picking up a few sight words, thats good!  Once you have fluency on both cvc and cvc-e words, finish up book B.  Pause for fluency amy time you find your kiddo is stuck.  Just keep playing games with the phonogram cards or the game ideas in the book (there are lots!). My kids all went through C faster than B, and I think that's bc they were becoming stronger readers from all our fluency stops 😉 they were already passingly familiar with the harder phongrams.  I never had mine use level D.  I did try AAR 3 and 4.  My kids hated it,  much preferred LoE,  but by the end of book C, they were able to read about anything.  Those fluency stops are critical IMO.

I do have 1 kid that I pulled from public school in 3rd grade, so she did not learn to read with phonics.   I tried LoE with her, but it was too clunky.  She has a slight learning issue and had the most success with Apples and Pears Spelling.  I don't think LoE is a good choice for a kid with a learning disability bc it moves too fast.  I think there are a lot of parents teaching kids to read who don't recognize learning disabilities or differences.  Even in public schools, kids go undiagnosed and teachers just pass them along.  

 

[Terabith]

I taught Spalding to a third grade class at a private school that used Spalding, and the school had great results.  I took the Spalding teacher training.  But I could not figure out how to teach my own kids to read with Spalding.  

I LOVE Spalding.  But it throws ALL THE RULES at the kids at once.  It requires massive amounts of working memory and executive functioning.  And it's predicated on the idea that kids can't learn to read until they are ready to write, and while I totally get the theory of that.....it was not at all true for my own personal children at ages 4 and 5.  

I like how LOE Foundations incorporates phonemic awareness really well, and I like the physical games.  And it doesn't throw quite so many rules at kids all at once to the extent that Spalding does.  But I have some doubts that it would have worked super well, though if it had existed when they were the right age, I probably would have tried it.  

[PeterPan]

On 11/10/2021 at 12:29 AM, Fun in the Son said:

Thank you for this.

I guess my struggle is that it is not a low cost curriculum and I wouldn't want to invest big bucks into something that works soso. This is a helpful comment though. I really appreciate it.

You probably already know this, but many kids will learn to read no matter what curriculum you use. Now you might be enthusiastic and start too early and go through a few, hehe. Or they might have some developmental vision issues, ADHD, language issues, phonological processing issues, whatever that glitch and slow things down. But if there are not these additional factors, in general it won't matter what you use. You could go to the library and borrow a free copy of whatever and the dc will probably learn to read. You could spend $17 and get WRTR and the dc will learn to read. You could spend $100 for SWR and the dc will learn to read. You could spend $$$$ for AAS and the dc will learn to read.

LOE was developed by someone who trained under Sanseri (of SWR, which itself is a spinoff of WRTR) and she brought her own theories to the table. I don't think it's problematic or bad. It just isn't going to be a cure-all for every challenging situation that can crop up when you teach reading. If people on that FB group were using LOE and realized they needed to move on to something else to meet *their* dc's needs, that doesn't mean the program failed. It just means it wasn't bringing all the tools they needed.

I used a $250 per level curriculum (Barton) to teach my ds to read and I bought 5 of the 9 levels. Does *your* dc need something that detailed, that thorough to learn to read? Probably not, hopefully not, lol. Like we said, in general most kids will learn to read with ANY of the programs we talk about around here. They're ALL FINE.

If you think there's a family history of dyslexia or your dc had speech/language problems or if you have other red flags (difficulty with phonological processing, complaints about vision fatigue or visual processing, etc.) then obviously you want to be attentive to those red flags and see if you need some extra tools. If you have concerns like that, you can post on LC and people can give simple suggestions on ways to screen to determine if you should be doing something more. 

Don't feel like you have to buy the MOST EXPENSIVE things to do a good job homeschooling. It's good to pay more when you have a time crunch, when you need the extra features a very fleshed out program brings.

On 11/9/2021 at 4:20 AM, Fun in the Son said:

Do children really need to get to D in order to begin reading decently?

It's usually a misnomer with these approaches to say they aren't reading. Doubtless your dc is *reading* from Day 1, reading back words he has spelled, whatever. What they're waiting on (and many programs do this, not just LOE) is forced reading. By waiting on longer texts till you have accurate decoding and some fluency, you eliminate bad habits like guessing and negative experiences of difficulty slogging through books. I STILL remember being forced to read from McGuffey readers when I was 5. I clearly didn't have the skills, and it was an unpleasant memory. Both of my dc have done an approach where we were reading the words, phrases, or sentences from our instructional material but waiting till the reading came together to do books. Works fine and can be better.

This is such a stressful stage, because it's the first thing you're really WORRIED about with homeschooling. But you can acknowledge this and tell yourself that it probably will work fine and that if it doesn't it's probably because your dc had needs beyond what the program was designed to address. That happens with any program and is fine. You'll know if that's happening and you'll get some help.

Edited November 12, 2021 by PeterPan

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I taught Spalding to a third grade class at a private school that used Spalding, and the school had great results.  I took the Spalding teacher training.  But I could not figure out how to teach my own kids to read with Spalding.  

I LOVE Spalding.  But it throws ALL THE RULES at the kids at once.  It requires massive amounts of working memory and executive functioning.  And it's predicated on the idea that kids can't learn to read until they are ready to write, and while I totally get the theory of that.....it was not at all true for my own personal children at ages 4 and 5. 

Huh. The first rule I teach is Rule 4. I don't teach the others until we meet words that use them. I don't require the dc to memorize those rules, either. We just quote them altogether each time, and eventually they learn them. Also, it would not occur to me to try to teach a 4yo how to read, so there's that. At the most, I would begin teaching a 4yo how to write circles beginning at 2 on the clock, and horizontal lines and vertical lines, by writing in the air, and with chocolate pudding and whatnot. Introducing the phonograms would be a very, very gentle thing.  And also, I did Spalding with my dc the same way I did in a classroom, for the most part.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Ellie

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Also, it would not occur to me to try to teach a 4yo how to read, so there's that. At the most, I would begin teaching a 4yo how to write circles beginning at 2 on the clock, and horizontal lines and vertical lines, by writing in the air, and with chocolate pudding and whatnot.

Despite not being a family that does formal academics in preschool, half my kids have started reading by 4 of their own volition. I'm not going to prevent them, so I need appropriate ways to teach them what they are asking to learn. My current 4yo loves to write and has self taught writing the letters and spells words out using his own sense of letter sounds, but he doesn't know any phonograms beyond the consonants' primary sounds and the vowels' short sounds, so now I'm teaching him what he wants/needs to know to do the things he is doing. I think that's not an uncommon presentation in a young child growing up in a homeschooling family

[Dianthus]

Don't have time to read other responses.  I've used it for 3 children.  First child (12) was excellent early reader and for years I have had to drag her away from her books.  2nd child was slower because he lacked interest,  but certainly always above the average even when uninterested, and now loves to read at 10. My 3rd is nearly done with level D, at about lesson 148.  He just turned 7 this week and reads with expression and perfect comprehension at about 130 wpm. 

My 2nd child had some minor speech issues also (saying R and sh, ch), and I really liked how LOE explained sound formation and that awareness helped him to correct those speech issues.

I like how it teaches spelling, but don't like how there is a new list for every lesson. I think the other issue is that there is sometimes so much extra designed for a classroom,  so you just have to learn to filter what your child needs. I'm happy with our results and will use it again when my baby learns to read.

ETA: I have only used Foundations and used for PreK/ K and grade 1. My child currently using it will finish halfway through grade 1.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Spirea

[Terabith]

11 hours ago, Ellie said:

Huh. The first rule I teach is Rule 4. I don't teach the others until we meet words that use them. I don't require the dc to memorize those rules, either. We just quote them altogether each time, and eventually they learn them. Also, it would not occur to me to try to teach a 4yo how to read, so there's that. At the most, I would begin teaching a 4yo how to write circles beginning at 2 on the clock, and horizontal lines and vertical lines, by writing in the air, and with chocolate pudding and whatnot. Introducing the phonograms would be a very, very gentle thing.  And also, I did Spalding with my dc the same way I did in a classroom, for the most part.

My oldest started sounding out words at 4, and at that point it occurred to me that they really were ready to learn to read and that if they could read, they could operate the tivo in the mornings and I could get an extra half hour of sleep.  So that was my reasoning to teach my first 4 year old to read.  Both my kids knew the single letter phonograms with most of their sounds by 18 months and could orally segment and blend words by their second birthday.  Oldest had no difficulties learning to read pretty much anything at 4, with like 15 minutes a day of instruction, but was not ready to write at all, though we did do the working on an easel with clock circles and what not in preparation, although now that I really think about that, I don't think I did even that until their formal kindergarten year at 5.5.  But yeah, I didn't start out to do preschool academics, but child was teaching themselves and coming up with some erroneous rules, so I did decide to spend 15 minutes a day teaching them formally to prevent that and also to facilitate a few extra minutes of sleep.  

My youngest had known single letter phonograms by 18 months, had excellent phonemic awareness, but by 4, I was incredibly aware that she had some serious learning disabilities that were weird and hard to figure out.  I had an inkling that it was going to be very, very hard for her to learn to read despite off the charts intelligence and solid pre-reading skills because she had NO working memory.  She could not remember how old she was.  I didn't really start trying to teach her to read until she was five, but I made a big gamble that I'm not sure was the right call or not.  I figured it was going to take several years of instruction to get her reading no matter how old she was when she started, and that I'd rather start her at 5 than start her at 7 and have her still not be reading till 10.  I used the Webster's speller with her for reading, and later, we used All About Spelling for spelling, because it taught the rules but it spaced them out more than Spalding did and gave more practice with each rule rather than trying to analyze 20 words a day that all follow a bunch of different rules.  

Because the Spalding lists are comprised of a lot of high frequency words, they are not the most regular, and it was just too many things for them to remember to figure out how to apply all at once, but again, my youngest had major memory issues.  

Edited November 12, 2021 by Terabith

[Ellie]

12 hours ago, KSera said:

Despite not being a family that does formal academics in preschool, half my kids have started reading by 4 of their own volition. I'm not going to prevent them, so I need appropriate ways to teach them what they are asking to learn. My current 4yo loves to write and has self taught writing the letters and spells words out using his own sense of letter sounds, but he doesn't know any phonograms beyond the consonants' primary sounds and the vowels' short sounds, so now I'm teaching him what he wants/needs to know to do the things he is doing. I think that's not an uncommon presentation in a young child growing up in a homeschooling family

If my little 4yo person was determined to read, then of course I'd do what I can, and that would include teaching the phonograms as he asked for them/needed to know. And that would be all sounds of each phonogram. I'd be helping him hold his writing implement correctly, and practicing writing circles and lines correctly, first with his finger, then with with a crayon/pencil/whatnot. In fact, the fourth edition of the manual addresses teaching children younger than six. 🙂

I would never expect little 4yo children to automatically learn to read at a young age just because they live in a homeschooling family, but that's just me.

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Ellie said:

I would never expect little 4yo children to automatically learn to read at a young age just because they live in a homeschooling family, but that's just me.

Yeah, that's not what I said. You said it would never occur to you to teach a 4 year old to read, and I explained that it's not uncommon for it to start happening with kids that age (and I think particularly in households where they are present for older siblings being taught) and that I then provide the tools and instruction they need.

[Ellie]

20 hours ago, KSera said:

Yeah, that's not what I said. You said it would never occur to you to teach a 4 year old to read, and I explained that it's not uncommon for it to start happening with kids that age (and I think particularly in households where they are present for older siblings being taught) and that I then provide the tools and instruction they need.

Well, ok. I don't know why you feel the need to reply to me like this, but ok. Have a nice day.

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

I used LOE Foundations with DS from age 3-5. The content was engaging, playful, & thorough. The materials were high-quality. It was a great fit for my DS & we both loved using the program. 

I also want to note that I have a great deal of respect for Dr Eide herself. I reached out after completing Foundations because I had conflicting thoughts on using Essentials with such a young child. She responded very thoughtfully, ultimately concurring with my concerns & recommending that I turn my attention to a program expressly designed for gifted learners, because she didn’t think Essentials would be a good fit for him at that time. It would have been fairly easy to dismiss my concerns. Instead, on her advice I sought out another curriculum that allowed us to move quickly & deeply while keeping output requirements developmentally appropriate - another curriculum we absolutely love. I’ve always appreciated her candor in that moment. 

[KSera]

On 11/13/2021 at 7:29 AM, Ellie said:

Well, ok. I don't know why you feel the need to reply to me like this, but ok. Have a nice day.

That’s okay. Sounds like we’re both misreading each other. Sorry if I came across rudely. 

3 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

I used LOE Foundations with DS from age 3-5. The content was engaging, playful, & thorough. The materials were high-quality. It was a great fit for my DS & we both loved using the program. 

I also want to note that I have a great deal of respect for Dr Eide herself. I reached out after completing Foundations because I had conflicting thoughts on using Essentials with such a young child. She responded very thoughtfully, ultimately concurring with my concerns & recommending that I turn my attention to a program expressly designed for gifted learners, because she didn’t think Essentials would be a good fit for him at that time. It would have been fairly easy to dismiss my concerns. Instead, on her advice I sought out another curriculum that allowed us to move quickly & deeply while keeping output requirements developmentally appropriate - another curriculum we absolutely love. I’ve always appreciated her candor in that moment. 

Could you share what you ended up using next?

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

7 hours ago, KSera said:

Could you share what you ended up using next?

We moved on to Michael Clay Thompson LA. We’ve only used Island & half of Town so far, but we really enjoy it. We split each level across 2yrs to allow us to add in other composition: CAP Writing & Rhetoric, IEW, & DS participates annually in NaNoWriMo as well.

For spelling we use AAS. He completed books 1-3 in 1st, thanks to the similarity with LOE. Now we do one book per year, then spend the remaining time on other topics. 

[TheAttachedMama]

We have dyslexia in our family.   I have used just about EVERY reading (and or spelling) program created by mankind.  (I am not even kidding.  Name something and I am probably intamately familar with it. ).  I finally discovered and used Logic of English Foundations A-D with my youngest son, and let me tell you....I LOVE the program.    My son (who has dyslexia by the way) can read anything and everything I put in front of him fluently and with ease.    And, he loved LOE.  He called it "dragon school" and would cheer and clap when it was time to do a lesson.   How cool is that?

Am I saying that *every* child will love LOE and learn to read easily?  No.   All kids develop and learn at their own pace.  But am I saying it is one of the MOST complete, MOST thorough, EASIEST to teach, and MOST fun programs out there.  YES.  Without a doubt.

---

(That being said, we attempted to do Logic of English Essentials this year, and I do not like it at all.   I have tried and tried to make it work, and at this point, I am about to throw in the towel and replace it with another OG spelling program + reading aloud practice + ELTL.)

[barnwife]

10 hours ago, TheAttachedMama said:

(That being said, we attempted to do Logic of English Essentials this year, and I do not like it at all.   I have tried and tried to make it work, and at this point, I am about to throw in the towel and replace it with another OG spelling program + reading aloud practice + ELTL.)

I clicked this thread accidentally. I haven't used LOE so I am no help there. But I saw this post and wanted to say that I am using Apples & Pears spelling with our kid with dyslexia as well as ELTL. (We use AAR for reading for him.) I use AAS for spelling with our other kids. We are just finishing AAR1.  He is now to the point that he could start AAS. I started Apples & Pears a bit ago, because I wanted something to incorporate more writing for him. I knew he wasn't ready for AAS. Long story short, I think either AAS or Apples & Pears goes well with ELTL. 
 

[TheAttachedMama]

11 hours ago, barnwife said:

I clicked this thread accidentally. I haven't used LOE so I am no help there. But I saw this post and wanted to say that I am using Apples & Pears spelling with our kid with dyslexia as well as ELTL. (We use AAR for reading for him.) I use AAS for spelling with our other kids. We are just finishing AAR1.  He is now to the point that he could start AAS. I started Apples & Pears a bit ago, because I wanted something to incorporate more writing for him. I knew he wasn't ready for AAS. Long story short, I think either AAS or Apples & Pears goes well with ELTL. 
 

Yeah, I own and have used both AAS and Apple & Pears with other kids.   I think I am going to use AAS -OR- a modified version of Spelling Plus (taught using OG methods) instead.  🙂.   Thanks so much!

[Terabith]

My youngest has dyslexia.  She learned all the AAS/ OG rules and follows them but invariably picks the wrong phonogram for each spelling.  So, for example, she'll write Bible as Bibull.....which follows the rules but is wrong.  

Apples and Pears from Sound Foundation was actually the most effective program.  She likes knowing the rules, but for her, the AAS rules are more of a linguistics exercise than a tool to get to correct spelling.  

[8filltheheart]

On 11/18/2021 at 2:06 PM, Terabith said:

My youngest has dyslexia.  She learned all the AAS/ OG rules and follows them but invariably picks the wrong phonogram for each spelling.  So, for example, she'll write Bible as Bibull.....which follows the rules but is wrong.  

Apples and Pears from Sound Foundation was actually the most effective program.  She likes knowing the rules, but for her, the AAS rules are more of a linguistics exercise than a tool to get to correct spelling.  

I have multiple dyslexic children.  OG rules were definitely not helpful for my dyslexics for learning how to spell.  For learning to read, yes, but spelling, like your kids they would invariably opt for an appropriate phonogram sound but not the correct one.

It takes more than learning rules for dyslexics to learn to spell.  Spelling has to make it into their long term memory.  Apples and Pears is the only program that helped improve their spelling.  Their spelling is still awful (2 are now adults and successful professionals), but at least A&P did help some.  

Typing and spell check are ultimately the best tools once they are in their later teens.  But in order for those to work, their spelling has to at minimum be identifiable by the software.