Public school - career tech education?

[SKL]

Hi, it's time for me to help my kids consider career tech education for 11th/12th grade.

Unlike when I was young, the program includes not only career-ready options, but also college prep options.

My eldest wants a career relating to biology/health.  She's long aspired to be a veterinarian, but now she is not sure she can achieve that, so she's thinking, maybe some other animal-related field or sports therapy or something along those lines.

For my eldest, we are thinking about Medical Health Professions I (11th grade) followed by either Biotechnology Honors & AP Biology, or Medical Health Professions II with a sports medicine emphasis.

My youngest is a little more fluid about what she wants to do, but she thinks she wants to be in business (continuing the businesses founded by me and her aunties).  But she also has an engineering bent.  Options for her include Business Administration I and II, or Engineering Technologies; however, she doesn't think she wants to do either of these in high school, and she could learn the information without dedicating herself to these programs.

The programs provide 3 credits each year.  It isn't clear whether or not any of these credits qualify to be treated as, say, science credits (to meet more general graduation requirements for college-bound students).  If the 3 credit CTE course doesn't count for any other requirements, then my kids will also need to take 4-5 other full credits per year (they need 2 more credits each of English, math, science, foreign language, and 1 more credit of social studies.)  If they choose the CTE path while also meeting those other requirements, this could mean no more study halls, and no lunch period in 12th.  (I'm not aware of any summer credit other than "credit recovery" for kids who failed previous classes.  Though, now that I think about it, I wonder if they could do college credit Spanish in the summer ... I could ask about that.)  FTR my youngest already doesn't have nor want a study hall, but my eldest may feel differently about that.

The pros include real-life experiences, possible college credits, certain potentially useful certifications, and relationship building.

What wisdom do you have to share?

[kbutton]

I have one on a different path, but he's at our career center and homeschooling the rest of the time. IIRC, we're both in the same state, and our state is very flexible about these things.

Are you looking at the class offerings and looking at them like electives? Our career center has what they call labs and then academic classes. Lab means career prep, and those classes are half a day at our school. Yours might be larger and have more flexibility. Here, juniors take labs in the AM, and academics in the afternoon. Seniors take labs in the afternoon and academics in the morning (but afternoon really starts late morning because they start and end quite early in the day). Whatever is considered as the lab class, they'll have to be there for the whole thing. I don't think it's a block of individual classes that you can split up. Just a heads up on that.

If it's offered, I highly recommend having your students do interest and aptitude testing with the career center. They don't all offer it, but ours does. It's very good information even if they choose not to attend. The aptitude testing is for coordination, manual dexterity, efficiency at tasks, etc. It's not like IQ aptitude testing. They do include some academics--they know that some programs require a basic level of language or math, and they line the scores up with what levels are required for various careers so that you have a realistic view of whether something is a good fit. We also got some reports on various jobs and what they pay, which ones require additional training or college, etc.

Attend any open houses for parents and/or students. Ours offers sophomores at local schools (and homeschoolers) a chance to spend the day there and see 3 or so of the programs they are most interested in. They eat lunch and whole deal there. Then they follow up with an open house for both parents and students where you can ask tons of questions. My son loved sophomore day, but when he went to the open house, they had actual employers who recruit from the program on hand to talk about the program and what additional training is required. My son changed his mind that night about which program to attend because that information was key for him, and it wasn't part of the sophomore days.''

Graduation--there are a bunch of paths to graduation in our state, and career/technical training gets you points. In our case, we are paralleling the requirements since he won't technically graduate from a local school; he'll have a homeschool diploma and transcript.

They used to offer remediation free scores in math and language on the ACT (or SAT) as one of the paths, but that seems to end in 2022. The flyer does suggest it depends on what year you entered 9th grade vs. the year you graduate (presumably for IEP students who can choose to stay in school until they're 22). 

https://education.ohio.gov/getattachment/Topics/Ohio-s-Graduation-Requirements/Sections/Classes-of-2023-and-Beyond-Graduation-Requirements/GradReq2023.pdf.aspx?lang=en-US

I would contact a guidance counselor at the career center to discuss specific credit options. 

32 minutes ago, SKL said:

It isn't clear whether or not any of these credits qualify to be treated as, say, science credits (to meet more general graduation requirements for college-bound students).  If the 3 credit CTE course doesn't count for any other requirements, then my kids will also need to take 4-5 other full credits per year (they need 2 more credits each of English, math, science, foreign language, and 1 more credit of social studies.)  If they choose the CTE path while also meeting those other requirements, this could mean no more study halls, and no lunch period in 12th.

I have never heard of no lunch, but this is something to bring up with a guidance counselor.

I don't think the credits from a "lab" or "career tech" class count for science, but that might vary by each individual program offered at the career center. 

[regentrude]

I do not think these courses will be useful for kids who could instead take a rigorous college prep course load. I would rather take an actual science course. I cannot imagine this as counting towards any college entrance requirements, and it almost certainly will not impress any selective college.

[Lucy the Valiant]

I have a kid in CTE this year for architecture. She goes 5 days a week for 1.5 hrs each day, and the course earns 2 3-credit classes through our community college system.

Advantages to our kid were proximity (we can get to CTE but not to uni), cost (these are "free" vs $$$  at uni), and student choice. In our state, the courses do transfer directly both to our state flagship and to any of the cc's. 

[catz]

In our state, high schoolers who qualify can do tech or CC classes for free.  My kids have done the DE route toward gen ed college requirements and to fulfill some general high school requirements with some study skills and fun classes mixed in.  So when I talk to people about doing this, if they are interested in having credits that transfer to complete a particular path, you really need to do your homework ahead of time.  If this is a free program and you are fine with your kids changing direction and not every class getting counted for credit down a college or other tech path, then I think it is a great way to explore.  

I've also seen things like a 16 year old who did a 2 year culinary program, dropped a lot of academics those last couple years of high school and is now working in a mediocre chain without good prereqs set up to return to college or the skill set or maturity to branch out.  I know another kid that got a 4 year degree by age 20 in a program he picked at age 14.  But now wishes he had been set up better for possible grad school in a slightly other direction.  I also worked with a couple young college grads over the years that just ended up being kind of mediocre employees for a couple years.   So I'd just want to make sure good college prereqs were in place and keep options open as long as possible. But how to do that may depend on your state colleges, etc.  

[SKL]

Yes, I'm trying to keep options open, because a young 15yo doesn't really know what she is going to want for the rest of her life.  That is why I would rather they not skip any of the requirements of a general college prep path.

There is a particular diploma option for CTE that is not that different from college prep ... the main difference I've noticed is the foreign language requirement.  My kids were not able to take foreign language in 9th grade due to Covid-related course limitations.  So they will only have 1 year of Spanish at the end of this year.  When they made up the CTE diploma requirements, they were thinking all college prep students would take FL in 9th and 10th.  😕

[Arcadia]

Here it counts as a one semester high school elective credit, so 5 credit units. One yearlong high school course is counted as 10 credits. Electives here (other than PE, health, drivers ed) are supposed to be interest led so CTE courses fall under that. 
My kids have taken electives that they could learn themselves so that they could balance the heavier workload subjects. So while it is true that a child who is interested in mechanical engineering could learn computer aided design by himself/herself, its nice to do it as an elective instead of having to choose something less interesting to the child.

[teachermom2834]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I do not think these courses will be useful for kids who could instead take a rigorous college prep course load. I would rather take an actual science course. I cannot imagine this as counting towards any college entrance requirements, and it almost certainly will not impress any selective college.

I agree. I am not a fan of these programs which have become the norm in our local public high schools. We are looking to send our dd, who is going to attend brick and mortar high school, to private school to have the traditional rigorous college prep courses we think are appropriate for her. Sorry to vent on this thread about my frustration with this model of high school education but I just am not impressed by what I have seen of it. 
 

For example, our local school has a course entitled “Biomedical Engineering” as a 10th grade course in their health sciences academy. Parents love to say their children are in biomedical engineering but I can’t see that an admissions officer is going to be impressed. As a parent I am frustrated that my dd’s schedule would have that but not physics. 
 

A couple thoughts after looking at these programs- in our local public schools you can opt out of these programs by choosing “AP Academy” as your concentration. Then you take AP courses instead of the career electives.  There are also some of these courses that will count as science electives. Our local school has a list on the website of courses from the career academies that count as science courses. 
 

If my dd does end up at public school she will opt out of the career courses and do the AP Academy. Which I’m not even crazy about because I’m not thrilled about being tied to completing the specific available AP courses to fill that requirement. 
 

 

 

[Soror]

Ds is in a 2 year long program on computer repair and maintenance. It counts for 3 elective credits per year. His core classes are the same as usual (can be honors, AP, DE, regular, remedial whatever level the student is at) It has been great for him. He can learn more about his area of interest than he could in regular highschool elective classes. Besides just book learning he gets more time doing hands on learning to apply what they are learning in a more in depth way than usual classes. Even de he could only take certain classes (of course as a homeschooler he could do whatever). DE cost us and the career program is free. He will end with various certifications that he can use. There is a possibility of him earning some college credit. After this some kids just use the certifications to get jobs, some continue on with the same field in college, some end up doing something entirely different, some go to the military etc. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Soror

[prairiewindmomma]

This type of program works in a few different ways in our district.

There is the diploma notation option---you still take college prep courses, but you specialize your elective credits to show an interest in a certain area.

There is the trades route--you take coursework and have hands on opportunities, and you do not necessarily have to maintain college prep level coursework, but you do have to meet diploma requirements (which here, with rolling admissions, is kind of a non-issue). The automotive tech, construction tech, and other programs fit here. 

There is the early college route--you apply and are given permission to take dual enrollment courses (some offered at the high school, others offered at the LCC) which are paid for by the district.  These are generally higher level base requirement courses in math, english, etc. but you graduate with a AA and a high school diploma and have jump started your college career.

I've heard tales of an early college route that leads to technical degrees/certificates ( but funding for this is up in the air with covid this year, so not an option this year.

------

I don't know that I highly valued these program options until I had a kid with significant enough learning issues that college wasn't a given.  I actually really, really appreciate them now. We also have a lot of migrant farmworker families who parents keep them in school because they can get degrees and stuff without paying tuition---otherwise they would probably drop out and go work in the wineries and berry farms during their high school years. 

[SKL]

Well I just checked the course catalog, and it indicates that the 12th grade "biotechnology honors and AP biology" is 2 credits and also provides college credit (8 credits + whatever they get if they pass the AP exam).  So that answers part of my question.  I still have questions though.  🙂

[Soror]

22 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I agree. I am not a fan of these programs which have become the norm in our local public high schools. We are looking to send our dd, who is going to attend brick and mortar high school, to private school to have the traditional rigorous college prep courses we think are appropriate for her. Sorry to vent on this thread about my frustration with this model of high school education but I just am not impressed by what I have seen of it. 
 

For example, our local school has a course entitled “Biomedical Engineering” as a 10th grade course in their health sciences academy. Parents love to say their children are in biomedical engineering but I can’t see that an admissions officer is going to be impressed. As a parent I am frustrated that my dd’s schedule would have that but not physics. 
 

A couple thoughts after looking at these programs- in our local public schools you can opt out of these programs by choosing “AP Academy” as your concentration. Then you take AP courses instead of the career electives.  There are also some of these courses that will count as science electives. Our local school has a list on the website of courses from the career academies that count as science courses. 
 

If my dd does end up at public school she will opt out of the career courses and do the AP Academy. Which I’m not even crazy about because I’m not thrilled about being tied to completing the specific available AP courses to fill that requirement. 
 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I do not think these courses will be useful for kids who could instead take a rigorous college prep course load. I would rather take an actual science course. I cannot imagine this as counting towards any college entrance requirements, and it almost certainly will not impress any selective college.

Not all students are suited for or want a selective college or rigorous course load. It isn't great for kids to have everyone encouraged into career programs just as it isn't great for all kids to be pushed into a rigorous schedule. It is Wonderful that schools have different options. The career program makes up just a small portion of our highschool's students. There are also those that do DE classes, AP classes, remedial and various combinations. My son and daughter are now both in easier classes than they could do. There were other considerations that made this the best choice for them at this time. Students can succeed following a variety of paths.

[teachermom2834]

28 minutes ago, Soror said:

 

Not all students are suited for or want a selective college or rigorous course load. It isn't great for kids to have everyone encouraged into career programs just as it isn't great for all kids to be pushed into a rigorous schedule. It is Wonderful that schools have different options. The career program makes up just a small portion of our highschool's students. There are also those that do DE classes, AP classes, remedial and various combinations. My son and daughter are now both in easier classes than they could do. There were other considerations that made this the best choice for them at this time. Students can succeed following a variety of paths.

I agree for sure. I also think the quality of these programs must vary tremendously and some are far better designed than others.

My gripe is when these programs replace the traditional rigorous high school path and kids are pushed to them when not in their best interests. That’s what I see. Flip side of pushing non college bound kids into classes not appropriate for them. 
 

But surely they can be good options for some students. 

[SKL]

FTR the other courses she has to take to complete an honors diploma are:

• Algebra II & probably statistics.  (She's not great at math.)
• Physics (not AP), and maybe Biology II if she doesn't choose the biotechnology/AP bio course.
• Spanish II and III.
• English III and IV.  She did honors in 9th & 10th but probably will not choose AP track.
• Social studies - 2 units - not AP track.

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

Also, some CTE programs allow part-time enrollment. So a kid who is home schooled could do whatever he wanted with the remainder of his time (aka highly-rigorous college prep, more standard high school track, OR strictly career-focused option). 

I view them as a much-desired return to blue collar / voc tech options, at least in our area (and I agree that these programs must vary wildly across the USA).

[SKL]

14 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I agree for sure. I also think the quality of these programs must vary tremendously and some are far better designed than others.

My gripe is when these programs replace the traditional rigorous high school path and kids are pushed to them when not in their best interests. That’s what I see. Flip side of pushing non college bound kids into classes not appropriate for them. 
 

But surely they can be good options for some students. 

I'm not sure whether they are pushing them or not here.  I was surprised that they asked my kid if she wanted to take CTE.  I wasn't previously thinking of it as a serious option for my kids.

Their school does have tons of honors and AP classes, a few free college courses at the high school, and unlimited free dual entry starting in 7th grade for those who pass the entrance exams.  Neither of my kids is chomping at the bit to do college work early, at least not so far.  I had thought of it as a possibility for one or both of them starting in 11th grade.  That reminds me, I should start looking into how to get them tested for DE eligibility.

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Yes, I'm trying to keep options open, because a young 15yo doesn't really know what she is going to want for the rest of her life.  That is why I would rather they not skip any of the requirements of a general college prep path.

There is a particular diploma option for CTE that is not that different from college prep ... the main difference I've noticed is the foreign language requirement.  My kids were not able to take foreign language in 9th grade due to Covid-related course limitations.  So they will only have 1 year of Spanish at the end of this year.  When they made up the CTE diploma requirements, they were thinking all college prep students would take FL in 9th and 10th.  😕

They aren't going to be allowed to skip graduation requirements, but they might not be offered the SAME science classes as at the main school because they have fewer students, teachers, and hours when they are scheduling around the career blocks of time. They will be offered college prep classes, including some CCP classes (DE in our state for those listening in).

I can see the Spanish needing to be made up--that's frustrating.

The career center here has fewer choices, but college prep is definitely still the goal. They can't usually offer band and other extras either.

[kbutton]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

That reminds me, I should start looking into how to get them tested for DE eligibility.

https://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Ohio-Education-Options/College-Credit-Plus

Most schools that offer DE will have reps on campus or have online seminars for parents to help guide them through the process. IIRC, some of the needed hoops are not necessarily sequential, but sometimes people think they are and then get caught up against deadlines.

Each district in the state usually offers the ACT or SAT once for free for all of their students, and I think it's usually junior year. You might need to ask about it and opt in. 

[Soror]

49 minutes ago, kbutton said:

They aren't going to be allowed to skip graduation requirements, but they might not be offered the SAME science classes as at the main school because they have fewer students, teachers, and hours when they are scheduling around the career blocks of time. They will be offered college prep classes, including some CCP classes (DE in our state for those listening in).

I can see the Spanish needing to be made up--that's frustrating.

The career center here has fewer choices, but college prep is definitely still the goal. They can't usually offer band and other extras either.

 

1 hour ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Also, some CTE programs allow part-time enrollment. So a kid who is home schooled could do whatever he wanted with the remainder of his time (aka highly-rigorous college prep, more standard high school track, OR strictly career-focused option). 

I view them as a much-desired return to blue collar / voc tech options, at least in our area (and I agree that these programs must vary wildly across the USA).

Here the CT/TC is only PT. My son has all the same class options as everyone else for his core classes. He only does the tech classes at the center and it is on the same campus as the high school. They pretty much force the 9th and 10th graders to get the required electives done(including Spanish- he did 2 yrs already to keep his college options open). He doesn't have any more electives he needs. He can take whatever level of science, math, English, and history he wants to. Those are all taken at the HS with everyone else. 

My niece is at another school and they didn't have Spanish offered for her in 9th and 10th so she is now doing it DE, she can get it done in 1 yr because the college classes are each equal to one HS credit.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Soror

[SKL]

I should clarify that the CTE programs my kid is considering are located at our regular high school campus, not at a different location.

[kbutton]

42 minutes ago, SKL said:

I should clarify that the CTE programs my kid is considering are located at our regular high school campus, not at a different location.

Ah, in my county, they are separate, so it cuts off some of the options offered at the larger school and makes scheduling tighter. You also have to apply to the school and be accepted--some of the programs are very competitive. 

If they are all on the same campus, and they have access to the same academics classes, it sounds like there are few negatives to considering these classes. As others have said, getting electives out of the way in 9th and 10th is helpful, if not imperative.

[katilac]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

 

There is a particular diploma option for CTE that is not that different from college prep ... the main difference I've noticed is the foreign language requirement.  My kids were not able to take foreign language in 9th grade due to Covid-related course limitations.  So they will only have 1 year of Spanish at the end of this year.  When they made up the CTE diploma requirements, they were thinking all college prep students would take FL in 9th and 10th.  😕

College credit Spanish in the summer could be problematic. It's the equivalent of 2 high school credits, so double the work in a shorter amount of time than even a high school semester.

Also, because it's the same as 2 hs credits, your kids will only be prepared for college Spanish 1 (so they would duplicate their high school Spanish 1 and then also cover high school Spanish 2). That could work, if they only need 2 foreign language credits or if they can take high school Spanish 3 in 11th (I lost track of what they need for each diploma). 

I'm rarely in favor of college-likely kids finishing their foreign language credits by 10th or 11th, because most colleges and majors are going to require at least two semesters of foreign language, and most of them will also let you start at the beginning again even if you have high school credits (not all, I'm sure). When kids struggle with foreign language, won't continue with it beyond the requirements, and/or could really benefit from an easier class, it is best to be fresh in the language from senior year. I've seen this help a lot of GPAs freshman year. 

[theelfqueen]

4 hours ago, katilac said:

 

I'm rarely in favor of college-likely kids finishing their foreign language credits by 10th or 11th, because most colleges and majors are going to require at least two semesters of foreign language

Only 11.5% of colleges surveyed from over 1,000 had a foreign language requirement, according to the 2020 American Council of Trustees and Alumni study. (For graduation, not admission) Some majors require foreign language where the broader university may not but ..many colleges do not require foreign language for many degrees. See 

https://blog.collegevine.com/colleges-with-foreign-language-requirements-for-graduation/#require

Edited November 9, 2021 by theelfqueen

[Soror]

16 hours ago, SKL said:

I'm not sure whether they are pushing them or not here.  I was surprised that they asked my kid if she wanted to take CTE.  I wasn't previously thinking of it as a serious option for my kids.

Their school does have tons of honors and AP classes, a few free college courses at the high school, and unlimited free dual entry starting in 7th grade for those who pass the entrance exams.  Neither of my kids is chomping at the bit to do college work early, at least not so far.  I had thought of it as a possibility for one or both of them starting in 11th grade.  That reminds me, I should start looking into how to get them tested for DE eligibility.

If at all possible it would likely be easier to handle for dd's to do Spanish as DE in a regular semester class. I know our kids have DE classes offered outside the regular HS day. That way it is not as compressed as the summer classes. 

14 hours ago, kbutton said:

Ah, in my county, they are separate, so it cuts off some of the options offered at the larger school and makes scheduling tighter. You also have to apply to the school and be accepted--some of the programs are very competitive. 

If they are all on the same campus, and they have access to the same academics classes, it sounds like there are few negatives to considering these classes. As others have said, getting electives out of the way in 9th and 10th is helpful, if not imperative.

There is still an application process, even with the center on campus. I don't know how competitive the programs are and what percent they admit but I know it is not guaranteed admittance. They only have so many slots and once they are full, that is that. So, I guess it partly depends on how many apply in a given year. 20+ yrs ago dh tried to get into the electrical program and didn't make it, he got put into welding instead. I forgot to mention our center does have a FT option for adults, they do classes all day and finish in 1 year as opposed to half a day and finish in 2 years. 

[katilac]

16 hours ago, theelfqueen said:

Only 11.5% of colleges surveyed from over 1,000 had a foreign language requirement, according to the 2020 American Council of Trustees and Alumni study. (For graduation, not admission) Some majors require foreign language where the broader university may not but ..many colleges do not require foreign language for many degrees. See 

https://blog.collegevine.com/colleges-with-foreign-language-requirements-for-graduation/#require

Sure, but that number goes up hugely when you include major requirements and not university requirements. 

Engineers I don't think ever have that requirement, probably somewhat rare for STEM majors in general. Hugely common for anything considered humanities/liberal arts/social science type majors. Quite common for lots of business majors. In my experience, it's definitely common enough to take into consideration, particularly for students who have no interest in, or aptitude for, languages.  A noticeable percentage of students seem to struggle with the foreign language requirement, to the point of really hurting their GPA and/or having to retake. 

Just a data point to consider. If SKL's kids were mine, I'd be assuming that they would have a FL requirement in college. They're also big into travel as a family, so I think continuing with languages could be a plus, but that's a different consideration. 

 

[SKL]

13 minutes ago, katilac said:

Sure, but that number goes up hugely when you include major requirements and not university requirements. 

Engineers I don't think ever have that requirement, probably somewhat rare for STEM majors in general. Hugely common for anything considered humanities/liberal arts/social science type majors. Quite common for lots of business majors. In my experience, it's definitely common enough to take into consideration, particularly for students who have no interest in, or aptitude for, languages.  A noticeable percentage of students seem to struggle with the foreign language requirement, to the point of really hurting their GPA and/or having to retake. 

Just a data point to consider. If SKL's kids were mine, I'd be assuming that they would have a FL requirement in college. They're also big into travel as a family, so I think continuing with languages could be a plus, but that's a different consideration.

My kids are fine with the language they are learning.  They've been learning it "lite" all their lives, but are finally interested.  They find Spanish class fun socially, and that would be one reason not to sub it out with a community college course.

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kids are fine with the language they are learning.  They've been learning it "lite" all their lives, but are finally interested.  They find Spanish class fun socially, and that would be one reason not to sub it out with a community college course.

Yes, that's a great reason to not sub it out to CC. 

That 'lite' learning has probably helped more than you know!