Work-related Question

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm not feeling great about my job, for a variety of reasons. I have been with the company for a little over two years and have said for a while that the primary reason I stay is because my boss is the best one I've ever had. Then, a couple of weeks ago, she made a decision that I felt was pretty disrespectful of my role. I know it's only one thing, but it's one thing on top of a bunch of other things, and it was enough to make me feel more serious about the extremely casual job hunting I had already been doing.

(One issue is that our entire department has been seriously underpaid. I raised this with our HR department last month and was assured that the new HR director is aware and will be tackling this, but the reality is that I simply can't imagine the company being willing to bump my salary the 25-50% that would be necessary to bring me into line with market rates in this area.)

Two of the people who have left recently have gone to the same company, where they are getting paid boatloads more money. So, on a whim the day I felt really frustrated, I applied to the same company. Earlier this week, they reached out about a possible fit. I did the phone screen yesterday and have been moved onto the next round of interviews. The role sounds like one for which I am well qualified and which I would like as much as what I do now. And the company has defined paths for career growth.

The recruiter I spoke to disclosed the salary this role would offer, which is, indeed, over 40% more than I currently make. The role would offer other advantages, including a hybrid work schedule (split between home and office), which would be significantly better for my mental health that the 100% remote situation I have now. The benefits are excellent, and the employee reviews on Glassdoor and similar sites are very positive. 

A few months ago, when the first person left our team, I spoke with my boss about the salary issue, and she acknowledged it and asked that, if I happened to be contacted by recruiters and could get any actual information about what salaries are being offered for similar positions, I pass it along to her. She semi-jokingly suggested that the next time someone contacted me I should "string them along" long enough to get this information. 

Well, now I have information. However, the picture looks a little different for me now that I am more inclined to be receptive to an offer, rather than just "stringing someone along" for research purposes. 

If the salary issue and a couple of other things (that I don't want to specify in public) could be resolved, I would just as soon stay where I am. So, one part of me wants to go ahead and, in a carefully worded and seemingly casual way, let my boss know that I have spoken to a recruiter for another company and found out exactly how much more I could make, to see if it might help shake loose a pre-emptive counter offer.

I'm thinking that comment would go something like:

"Hey, remember how you asked me to let you know if I got any real information about salaries for comparable jobs? Well, I chatted with a recruiter the other day who told me straight up that the range for a position at my level there would be $X - Y. I don't know yet whether I have any interest in pursuing it, but I figured I'd let you know."

The other part of me, though, doesn't want to tip my hand or make it clear that I am looking around. In a lot of ways, my current employer has been good to me, and I don't want to risk making them feel like it's not worth investing in me because I am considering leaving. 

Thoughts? What would you do?

[MooCow]

I would not tip your hand. I would do what is best for you and that is getting a fair wage and it sounds like this new job would be better for your mental health. I have come to the realization for myself, that sometimes God makes things so difficult for us because He wants us to change and we're fighting Him because change is scary.

[happi duck]

I'm positive if your boss really wanted to know salary comps she could get them herself.

[Katy]

When you get the offer ask for some time to think about it, and make sure you have the offer letter in hand. Then tell her you’ve been offered a more than 40% raise to leave, if you want to stay.  I might tell her 50% because the working conditions are likely better at the other job.

She likely can’t meet the demand, and if she can you might ask yourself if you want to work for someone who could have raised your salary to a fair wage all along but didn’t because you didn’t force her. To some, that’s business.  To others, that’s annual salary negotiation stress they want no part of. 

[Tap]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

When you get the offer ask for some time to think about it, and make sure you have the offer letter in hand. Then tell her you’ve been offered a more than 40% raise to leave, if you want to stay.  I might tell her 50% because the working conditions are likely better at the other job.

She likely can’t meet the demand, and if she can you might ask yourself if you want to work for someone who could have raised your salary to a fair wage all along but didn’t because you didn’t force her. To some, that’s business.  To others, that’s annual salary negotiation stress they want no part of. 

This is exactly what I would do too. And…they need to make sure you benefits match. At the new job, if you would have 3 weeks vacation at 2 years, they need to match that. In writing!!!!!!

[catz]

No way would I tip your hand in this situation if you think the entire situation at the other company would be a better fit for you.  I would personally be willing to disclose salary if I gave notice though.  If they are hemorrhaging employees, that may be helpful for them in the future. 

However, if you were open to staying, I'd wait until I have a written offer ready to accept to discuss.  I personally would not be feeling a ton of loyalty to someone who asked me to do reconnaissance on salaries for them as a way to pretend they are thinking about it.  Especially if they've already had people leave.  That info is readily available via google no doubt.  Some jobs are meant to be a stepping stone.  

Edited November 5, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[JumpyTheFrog]

If your current company wanted to give you a raise they would have already. You already know they aren't serious about raising your pay. The new job sounds like it's worth serious consideration. You don't owe loyalty to a company who has been underpaying its employees.

[Faith-manor]

36 minutes ago, happi duck said:

I'm positive if your boss really wanted to know salary comps she could get them herself.

This. HR and the boss know full well what the market value of your work, educstion, and experience is. They are "stringing people along" saying they will tackle it, but then do not. They will do that until all their good people jump ship, and they are left unable to continue without hiring at what the market will bear. They are apparently willing to let it come to this.

They are not treating you right. You do not need to volunteer information that could end up hurting you. Take care of you and your family. Businesses that do not take care of employees are in danger of losing them, and that is as it should be.

[Jenny in Florida]

So, I do think this has kind of caught everyone by surprise. My boss has never had another professional job. She joined the company about a decade ago in the equivalent of a mailroom position, with a BA she didn't really know what to do with and no clear idea of a career path. She is smart and capable and a natural leader and sort of accidentally discovered she loves what we do. Until fairly recently, when the company has grown exponentially through both hiring and acquisitions, this was a pretty small organization that has been willing to make decisions on the fly, including creating positions and promoting people in an ad hoc way. Consequently, my boss ended up in a position of some authority, but she isn't super connected to the industry outside of our employer. 

She was genuinely surprised when the last person who left shared their new salary with her, and it turned out to be more than my boss makes. She is also frustrated about our department being undervalued, but I will admit to a certain amount of skepticism about how hard she is fighting to change things, based on some comments co-workers (and former co-workers) have passed along. 

All of that said, I really would prefer to stay, not least because at my age I would very much like to just dig in and know I am settled until retirement. Because I took a "break" of almost two decades to raise my kids, I am in the odd position of attempting to build a career that will last me only another 10-12 years, and I don't want to spend that time hopping from employer to employer. 

On the other hand, I just cannot justify giving up what could a few hundred thousand dollars in salary (and the resulting bump in retirement savings) that I could be earning over that same 10-12 years just because it feels safer to stay put.

Thanks for your thoughts, all. I was leaning in the same direction, more or less. I guess I just wish things were different.

[Faith-manor]

16 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

So, I do think this has kind of caught everyone by surprise. My boss has never had another professional job. She joined the company about a decade ago in the equivalent of a mailroom position, with a BA she didn't really know what to do with and no clear idea of a career path. She is smart and capable and a natural leader and sort of accidentally discovered she loves what we do. Until fairly recently, when the company has grown exponentially through both hiring and acquisitions, this was a pretty small organization that has been willing to make decisions on the fly, including creating positions and promoting people in an ad hoc way. Consequently, my boss ended up in a position of some authority, but she isn't super connected to the industry outside of our employer. 

She was genuinely surprised when the last person who left shared their new salary with her, and it turned out to be more than my boss makes. She is also frustrated about our department being undervalued, but I will admit to a certain amount of skepticism about how hard she is fighting to change things, based on some comments co-workers (and former co-workers) have passed along. 

All of that said, I really would prefer to stay, not least because at my age I would very much like to just dig in and know I am settled until retirement. Because I took a "break" of almost two decades to raise my kids, I am in the odd position of attempting to build a career that will last me only another 10-12 years, and I don't want to spend that time hopping from employer to employer. 

On the other hand, I just cannot justify giving up what could a few hundred thousand dollars in salary (and the resulting bump in retirement savings) that I could be earning over that same 10-12 years just because it feels safer to stay put.

Thanks for your thoughts, all. I was leaning in the same direction, more or less. I guess I just wish things were different.

I think you really need to do what is best for retirement. If you only have 10-13 years left in this career, then your have more years ahead of that to think about living off savings and fixed income of social security. That should take precedence. And if the next job is good, you could stay with it for those remaining 10-12 years. I truly do not believe you will see any substantial pay raise where you are, and that is a big detriment to your family finances and retirement plans.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Social Security is calculated on your highest paid 35 years of work. If you take the job, each year left you have in your career will have your new, higher wage replace a year with a lower wage (or a zero if you haven't worked for 35 years) in the calculation. 

(All of this ignores being able to claim half a spouse's Social Security instead of taking your own.)

[JumpyTheFrog]

44 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Because I took a "break" of almost two decades to raise my kids, I am in the odd position of attempting to build a career that will last me only another 10-12 years, and I don't want to spend that time hopping from employer to employer. 

Moving to a job with a significant raise doesn't obligate you to continue to do so for the next 10-12 years. Even a one time jump in salary will help your financial situation. Would you advise your daughter to just settle for a lower salary when another job that looks good was offering more?

[JumpyTheFrog]

2 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Two of the people who have left recently have gone to the same company, where they are getting paid boatloads more money. So, on a whim the day I felt really frustrated, I applied to the same company. Earlier this week, they reached out about a possible fit. I did the phone screen yesterday and have been moved onto the next round of interviews. The role sounds like one for which I am well qualified and which I would like as much as what I do now. And the company has defined paths for career growth.

The recruiter I spoke to disclosed the salary this role would offer, which is, indeed, over 40% more than I currently make. The role would offer other advantages, including a hybrid work schedule (split between home and office), which would be significantly better for my mental health that the 100% remote situation I have now. The benefits are excellent, and the employee reviews on Glassdoor and similar sites are very positive. 

Let's simplify things:

1. The new job would offer 40% more, without even negotiating.
2. The new job has a hybrid schedule that is better for your mental health.
3. The benefits would be better.
4. Employees like working there.
5. You already know people working there, so you could pump them for information that nobody else would tell you otherwise.
6. Your current employer is content to underpay everyone, while pretending they "hope" to fix it.
7. The new job is work you like.
8. The current employer has other unspecified problem.

Changing jobs sounds like a no-brainer to me. Considering you were out of the work force for a long time, could it be you feel you owe your current employer more than the work they have paid you to do?

 

[Forget-Me-Not]

57 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

Let's simplify things:

1. The new job would offer 40% more, without even negotiating.
2. The new job has a hybrid schedule that is better for your mental health.
3. The benefits would be better.
4. Employees like working there.
5. You already know people working there, so you could pump them for information that nobody else would tell you otherwise.
6. Your current employer is content to underpay everyone, while pretending they "hope" to fix it.
7. The new job is work you like.
8. The current employer has other unspecified problem.

Changing jobs sounds like a no-brainer to me. Considering you were out of the work force for a long time, could it be you feel you owe your current employer more than the work they have paid you to do?

 

This. If your employer genuinely wanted to know what a competitive salary for the field is, they could easily find that out. They’ve watched at least two employees move on, and that has not motivated them to improve things for the remaining employees. You do not owe your employer loyalty or information (and in fact, asking you to “string along” recruiters and then report was such an unprofessional thing to ask of you). 
 

Do what is right for *you*, because in the end, they will continue to do what is best for the company and themselves. 

[Emba]

19 minutes ago, Forget-Me-Not said:

Do what is right for *you*, because in the end, they will continue to do what is best for the company and themselves. 

Yes. I have been sort of where you are before, knowing that an employer was taking advantage but giving the benefit of the doubt because I liked her and she told me in the future there would be added benefits. 
 

Guess what? Those benefits didn’t materialize before my employment ended, and I was left with a massively bad taste in my mouth and a lot of resentment.  Never again.  Never settle for less than you know you should be getting for the work you do. Your employer may talk a good game, and be very like able, but they’re not backing that up with action on your behalf. in the end, you are the only one looking out for you. 

[Carol in Cal.]

It has sometimes been the case in my direct experience that the only way to get an out of plan raise is to scare management into thinking you might leave and for roughly what increase, and armed with that information they can make the case for 'something special'.  That rachetts up your income from then on.  So I would not discount the clout that that can give you, nor the likelihood that it would work out just fine if you really want to stay where you are.  That manager may or may not know what the going rates are in the area, and if she does know, may or may not be able to champion you to get them for you without a little more ammunition that you could provide.

Having said that, 40% is a lot for an initial offer.  I'm guessing that at this point if you asked for 50% instead it would be doable.  It's always best to get a high starting salary because that is what they give you raises from in the future.

You can always go back to your current company down the road if you really want to, and probably at a much more reasonable salary at that point.

It sounds like you like the new job and some of the people quite a bit, so I don't honestly see any compelling reason to try to stay where you are.  Honestly, if I were you I would negotiate a bit with the new place and then take that job.  Better pay, better working conditions, the inside scoop--sounds like that job has it all.  If you stay there for 10-12 years not only will you save much more but will have much high social security, assuming your contributions are not already pegged at the current job.  That's very significant in establishing a comfortable retirement.

[TechWife]

Don’t disclose the info to your current boss. It is incredibly unprofessional. If you do so and the company you are interviewing with finds out, you won’t get any more interviews or an offer. Pay is considered privileged corporate information and you don’t share it with outsiders, ever. Companies usually also have policies that employees aren’t supposed to tell each other what they make. Doing so is grounds for termination.
As others have said, if she wanted the info she would have it. I’ll add to that she may very well already have it. That type of info is available through HR consulting groups and HR management groups.  
A 40% pay bump in house to stay in the same position would be pretty rare. Most people who are getting paid below market value don’t get that kind of pay bump unless they change employers. Keep interviewing and wait until you have an offer in hand. Once you do you can make a decision, but do so without mentioning the amount to your boss. 
 

[footballmom]

75% of people who accept a counteroffer are back in the job market within 3 months.  Counteroffers rarely work out.  Do not put the positive happy energy that can be directed toward a seemingly wonderful employer by giving the company that didn’t value you the benefit of that energy trying to get a counteroffer.  Your boss showed you who she was with whatever happened a couple of weeks ago.  There’s a lot to be said for feeling settled / secure, but the new company doesn’t sound risky, just an unknown being new to you.

[KungFuPanda]

I think it’s sketchy and/or incompetent that your boss is pretending not to know the going rate for your job. I’d wait for an offer then tell her “I’ve been offered x. If you can beat it, I’ll stay.”

[prairiewindmomma]

Don’t disclose you are interviewing.

Take the new job if offered.

The above advice about counteroffers is good advice. 

[ikslo]

In my experience, even if the current employer bumps you up in pay to get you to stay, they will more than likely block you from further raises for a time if not permanently.  And they will probably also pile more work on you. I’ve seen it happen over and over.  If you move on, that’s your starting point, with yearly raises along with everyone else (if the company is doing well).  Based on what you said about your current job knowingly pay a low rate, it behooves you to move on imo.

[katilac]

19 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

 All of that said, I really would prefer to stay, not least because at my age I would very much like to just dig in and know I am settled until retirement. Because I took a "break" of almost two decades to raise my kids, I am in the odd position of attempting to build a career that will last me only another 10-12 years, and I don't want to spend that time hopping from employer to employer. 

On the other hand, I just cannot justify giving up what could a few hundred thousand dollars in salary (and the resulting bump in retirement savings) that I could be earning over that same 10-12 years just because it feels safer to stay put.

Bolding by me: this may not be realistic. In general, companies change at a much more rapid pace than they used to (change goals, change leadership, change ownership) and employees change jobs at a much more rapid pace. There's a better-than-fair chance that you will be changing jobs even if you choose to stay at your current one for now.  

We're close in age, based on your years to retirement. I know lots of people in their 50s (and not just early 50s) who have made one or more recent job changes. My husband worked for the same company for 25 years - and then made several changes in the following ten years, lol. It's a different world. 

Also, changing jobs seems to very much be the way to increase one's salary exponentially, rather than by slow increments. 

A good boss is very valuable, but that is a lot of money. You're not beholden to stay if you don't like the new job (I know you don't want to switch, but again, I don't know that 10-12 years at one place is a practical goal, you at least can't count on it). I also think the hybrid model will be a huge plus for you, as opposed to fully remote.