Great books colleges like St. John’s?

[staceyobu]

My oldest is considering applying to St. John’s College. Any ideas of similar schools she should look at? We are in Texas and I’d love something sorta close to home. I’ve seen a few recommendations for University of Dallas. We aren’t Catholic, but that wouldn’t necessarily be a deal killer either. 

[Bootsie]

DD graduated from University of Dallas (and we are not Catholic).  We thought she received an excellent education; their Rome semester that most students do their sophomore year is a great experience.  There has been a change in president since she was there, but if you have any questions about UD I will see if I can answer them.

[Lecka]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Science_and_Arts_of_Oklahoma
 

USAO is in Oklahoma and has a liberal arts core curriculum.  

[Katy]

A few people in my family went to a local (to them) Catholic university as Protestants. There were a few moments of confusion in religion or ethics classes, but they were happy with their educations and walked away with a higher opinion of Catholicism.

Catholics are more social and more likely to drink than many (at least American) Protestants, which was also surprising for people raised around Southern Baptists.

[chiguirre]

If she wants to stay in Texas, maybe the U of H's Honors program minor Phronesis would fit the bill.

https://uh.edu/honors/Programs-Minors/honors-minors/phronesis/

 

UT Austin also offers Plan II Honors, that's a whole four year program which includes a lot of great books.

https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/plan2/

They also offer a major and minor in Core Texts and Ideas

https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/coretexts/Academics/Certificate.php

 

Out of state, Thomas Aquinas College is a Catholic Great Books school in California. It's much less expensive than St. John's.

https://www.thomasaquinas.edu/

[Janeway]

Hillsdale. And if you are not Catholic, you might not wish to include Catholic colleges, as they generally want to convert their non-Catholic students. UD is big on converting non-Catholics.

[Janeway]

Also, look at the University Scholars program at Baylor. That is what my son did. Also, the Great Books program at Baylor.

[Katy]

I forgot to say that I knew someone who transferred to St Johns 20+ years ago. He was excited about switching between campuses.  He went on to become a literature professor and lacrosse coach and seems happy enough in his annual family photo Facebook post. 

[Calizzy]

Torrey Honors Institute at Biola University.

[ScoutTN]

Clemson Lyceum program

New College Franklin (TN)

 

[Bootsie]

43 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Hillsdale. And if you are not Catholic, you might not wish to include Catholic colleges, as they generally want to convert their non-Catholic students. UD is big on converting non-Catholics.

This has not been my experience.  DD felt no pressure to conver to Catholicism at UD.  I did a Masters in Theology at a Catholic Univ.  DS did dual enrollment at a Catholic University.   I taught at a Catholic university for about 15 years and DH taught at one for over 30 years.   We never saw any attempt to convert non-Catholics.  DH and I had colleagues who were atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and never heard a single person comment that there was an attempt to convert them.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

A few people in my family went to a local (to them) Catholic university as Protestants. There were a few moments of confusion in religion or ethics classes, but they were happy with their educations and walked away with a higher opinion of Catholicism.

Catholics are more social and more likely to drink than many (at least American) Protestants, which was also surprising for people raised around Southern Baptists.

Oh yeah. My sister and several high school friends went to a Catholic college and drinking was a huge part of the culture. And this was a fairly conservative Catholic college. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Frances

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

Hillsdale. And if you are not Catholic, you might not wish to include Catholic colleges, as they generally want to convert their non-Catholic students. UD is big on converting non-Catholics.

I really, really don’t think this is true in general. Now I can’t speak to UD specifically, but this is really not the case at the majority of Catholic colleges or k12 schools. 

[gardenmom5]

St. John's has a campus in Santa Fe as well. (they do encourage students to do at least one semester at "the other" campus.)  Languages are French and "classical studies Greek".

 

They solicited 1dd, and we considered it.  Ultimately she didn't apply there. She ended up at a high ranked liberal arts college and majored in Classics. (attic Greek and classical Latin.)   She'd already studied French for six years.

She went into computers.   Classics transfers more than you'd think.  (re: logic, discipline, evolution of language  . . It was noteworthy a CS major came back after working for a couple years  - common at this school - and said the elective "History of English" was THE most useful class he took as a computer programmer - despite being a CS major. )

Edited November 4, 2021 by gardenmom5

[Moonhawk]

Thomas Aquinas College is a great books college similar to St. John's. They have a campus in California and a new campus in New England. So, not closer to Texas, but the campi are beautiful.

It is Catholic, I can't speak for "Catholic colleges", but can share my perspective of that particular college at that particular time I was there: a few students really wanted to convert their friends (especially when they were dating) but it wasn't a goal of the college nor the professors, and Catholic students who were rude about their approach on this were shut down by other Catholics. I'd say ~7/11 of the non-Catholic students in my class converted by senior year (one became a priest). The year above me around 3/10 converted. It didn't affect popularity or anything like that.

[Katy]

50 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 It was noteworthy a CS major came back after working for a couple years  - common at this school - and said the elective "History of English" was THE most useful class he took as a computer programmer - despite being a CS major. )

That’s interesting.  Did he go into why?

I read recently that classics majors are consistently the best performers in law school. 

[Janeway]

On 11/4/2021 at 5:36 PM, Frances said:

I really, really don’t think this is true in general. Now I can’t speak to UD specifically, but this is really not the case at the majority of Catholic colleges or k12 schools. 

It was staff member there, who thought I was Catholic due to the group I was with, who said this.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Janeway

[MercyA]

On 11/4/2021 at 4:47 PM, Katy said:

Catholics are more social and more likely to drink than many (at least American) Protestants, which was also surprising for people raised around Southern Baptists.

I was once doing some work with an elderly Catholic friend, outside for a couple hours on a snowy day. I asked him if he was going to have some hot chocolate when he got home. He said, "No, rum!" 🙂 

Edited November 6, 2021 by MercyA

[MercyA]

I have had several Catholic friends try to convert me. However, they were very gentle about it and not all pushy.

I'd be fine with my DD going to a Catholic school.

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

That’s interesting.  Did he go into why?

I read recently that classics majors are consistently the best performers in law school. 

per CS - the student didn't, but dd works in very male dominated computers (her last job was head of tech for a small local bi-national company. dd jokes it was her grad program.  It really did prepare her for the job where she is now - which she absolutely loves.  (and has a lot more opportunity.  and shiny toys. and they take security seriously.)  And she doesn't have to pay bridge tolls . . . 

so - from dd. .. the reason the History of English (and classics) was so helpful for computers. . . computer languages are very precise, and errors are not tolerated.  your computer is the ultimate grammar cop.  With classics/history of English, you get a very good understanding of why languages does what it does so you are better prepared to use language to get the computer to do what you want it to do. 

I think I have a good grasp of middle english . . . . if you look at olde English vs middle English vs Modern English . . . . Olde English is a completely different language.  The words that scared her were the ones that LOOKED like middle/modern english.  They meant something completely different. ** because of the background logic from classics, and understanding how language functions - it really helped 1dd with computers.

**  here's an example.  Bird.   I always used to wonder why in 1970s British comedies the guys referred to single young women as "birds". . . . . It's a holdover from Olde English.  Before "the great vowel/consonant shift".  (They don't know why the shift happen - only that it did.)  Bird . . in Olde English . . . . means "bride".  so - a single young woman of marriageable age, was a "Bird".

 

As for classics . . . . I kept trying to get through to her to think about what she planned on doing with it.  (JRR Tolkein had a classics degree, that's all she cared about. thunk. )  "Mother, don't bother me with details.".   I suggested contract law, she loves nuance, language is a toy to her. She loved Latin  (she went over the libretto for Carmina Burana to help with the "grammar". It is cool seeing middle-latin German,)  I came across one tax lawyer who had done his senior project on the Athenian Tribute lists. After that project, he found the tax code to be easy in comparison.

I had an english teacher in jr high, I really think had a classics background. It *really* showed.  She had a far better understanding and ability to explain of why English does what it does compared to every other english teacher I ever had.   

[Janeway]

On 11/4/2021 at 4:39 PM, Bootsie said:

This has not been my experience.  DD felt no pressure to conver to Catholicism at UD.  I did a Masters in Theology at a Catholic Univ.  DS did dual enrollment at a Catholic University.   I taught at a Catholic university for about 15 years and DH taught at one for over 30 years.   We never saw any attempt to convert non-Catholics.  DH and I had colleagues who were atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and never heard a single person comment that there was an attempt to convert them.

I heard it from staff member at UD who assumed I was Catholic. Same exact staff member had met me before but forgot me (I was in a group) and had acted all open minded to other religions.

[Farrar]

There is such a huge range of Catholic colleges. Some are, indeed, very religious and attract mostly Catholic students. Others might as well be secular. Georgetown is technically a Catholic college. Trust me, no one is working hard on any converting there. Really, any time you're investigating a "religious" college from any denomination, you have to dig a little to see what the vibe is. Are there religious requirements for students? What about for professors (because that sets a big tone)? Are the students predominantly from that religion? Are there student groups for different religions? Is there a culture of attendance at religious events that a student would feel left out of if they didn't attend? These things could be pluses or minuses, depending.

As for Great Books, I don't think anyone has mentioned St. Olaf.

[Fritz]

On 11/4/2021 at 3:49 PM, staceyobu said:

My oldest is considering applying to St. John’s College. Any ideas of similar schools she should look at? We are in Texas and I’d love something sorta close to home. I’ve seen a few recommendations for University of Dallas. We aren’t Catholic, but that wouldn’t necessarily be a deal killer either. 

You might be interested in this. It is not written by Bari Weiss (who is doing phenomenally well and hiring others to post on her platform) but rather Pano Kanelos the former president of St. John's College. He is building a new university in Austin.

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/we-cant-wait-for-universities-to/comments

[Resilient]

Something to find out about, both from the university and from your own expectations... 

I have 7* personal acquaintances who have graduated from Great Books schools, some 30+ years ago and some more recent.  All of them have loved the experience. All of them had to return to university to get either a master's or another BA to find employment.  I'm glad to read the experiences upthread where this has not been the case, but it has been uniformly my experience.  It's worth knowing about so you/the student can be realistic about the costs of the education.

*One electrical engineer, one software engineer, three teachers, one financial planner, one nursing student.

I have 2 other acquaintances who left St. John's after 2 years because they did the math and saw that they would be crushed by the debt for many years to come.  They graduated from another university and now have jobs in the finance field.

 

[cintinative]

On 11/4/2021 at 4:49 PM, Janeway said:

 UD is big on converting non-Catholics.

UD=?
 

[chiguirre]

On 11/8/2021 at 4:01 PM, cintinative said:

UD=?
 

University of Dallas. It's a small, Catholic liberal arts college in Irving, TX. They do a semester abroad at their campus near Rome and also offer summer programs for high school students. Dd did their Latin program and loved it. There were many non-Catholics on her trip.  

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, chiguirre said:

University of Dallas. It's a small, Catholic liberal arts college in Irving, TX. They do a semester abroad at their campus near Rome and also offer summer programs for high school students. Dd did their Latin program and loved it. There were many non-Catholics on her trip.  

Thank you!

[bibiche]

4 hours ago, chiguirre said:

University of Dallas. It's a small, Catholic liberal arts college in Irving, TX. They do a semester abroad at their campus near Rome and also offer summer programs for high school students. Dd did their Latin program and loved it. There were many non-Catholics on her trip.  

Haha! They were non-Catholics *then*. But what are they now?! 😈 😈 😈 😉