I'm so angry I could spit. Update page 2.

[MercyA]

So, I live in a small town in the Midwest, as most of you know. It's been a constant litany here of "masks don't work," "we need to see each other's faces," "the vaccine is experimental"--excuse after excuse for people to do whatever the heck they want, other people be darned. Total lack of understanding of basic science, even among educated, intelligent people.

[deleted for privacy]

We've already had [x] deaths in my own church from COVID, but no one will admit that's what they were from. It was preexisting health conditions and old age.  And now a member has [serious complications from COVID]. If he passes, they will likely say it was from pneumonia (even though he was positive for COVID), and "God knew it was going to happen," as if that absolves us from responsibility. 

[deleted for privacy]

It's literally like *there is no pandemic* in their mind. 

Just needed to vent. Thanks all.

DON'T QUOTE PLEASE.

Edited November 7, 2021 by MercyA

[fairfarmhand]

😔😔😔

 

I'm so sorry.

[ktgrok]

I'm so so sorry. I don't get the "it was pneumonia, not covid" thing that people do. I mean, yeah, it was COVID PNEUMONIA!!!! That's like saying someone didn't die from being stabbed, they died from blood loss. I mean, yes....but the thing that caused the blood loss is the problem. Sigh. 

[scholastica]

I’m so sorry. 

[mommyoffive]

Wow.  There are no words.  I am sorry for your losses.  I am sorry you are living through this in an area like that. 

[bolt.]

I'm sorry this is happening around you. I'm glad you are the kind of stubborn ethical boundaried person that we all know you are, to keep on handling yourself and your loved ones in that kind of scenario. And I'm glad that your daughter still has her faith in spite of the church letting her down. That's your influence helping her too, You matter.

[mom31257]

I'm so sorry!

I get so frustrated when I hear people say things like "well they were overweight". Has that ever been a death sentence from a contagious disease, at least in our lifetime?

[Not_a_Number]

This would make me crazy. Also, it would make me want to move really badly. 

[HSmomof2]

34 minutes ago, mom31257 said:

I'm so sorry!

I get so frustrated when I hear people say things like "well they were overweight". Has that ever been a death sentence from a contagious disease, at least in our lifetime?

No, it hasn’t. Or even hypertension, type 2 diabetes, etc. These are all manageable, treatable conditions that many people can live long, relatively healthy lives with. 

[Starr]

I'm so sorry.

[Spryte]

I’m so sorry, that sounds heartbreaking and maddening and just hard to live through. 

[kiwik]

I get so cross with the existing conditions.  I am not going to die of asthma - it is controlled very well.  If I get Covid though I likely will - for of Covid that is.  Strangely enough if I fall off a tall building and splat on the ground it won't be asthma that kills me either.

[chiguirre]

I'm so sorry Mercy, that's terrible.

 

That said, you need to find a new church. When people tell you who they are, you need to believe them. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I generally think spitting (at least in public) is disgusting, but I'll make an exception in this case. Spit away, @MercyA. It's appropriate in this situation. I'm sorry you're stuck in one of those partisan bubbles. It must be awful.

For those readers disgusted with the state of (I assume in this context) Evangelicalism, The Holy Post podcasts, https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast hosted by the artist formerly known as Bob the Tomato, might be a good fit for you.  It's more chattery than I prefer, but they get it and the end of the podcasts usually have a really good interview. Start with the most recent and work your way backwards or select based on title.

[ktgrok]

23 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I generally think spitting (at least in public) is disgusting, but I'll make an exception in this case. Spit away, @MercyA. It's appropriate in this situation. I'm sorry you're stuck in one of those partisan bubbles. It must be awful.

For those readers disgusted with the state of (I assume in this context) Evangelicalism, The Holy Post podcasts, https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast hosted by the artist formerly known as Bob the Tomato, might be a good fit for you.  It's more chattery than I prefer, but they get it and the end of the podcasts usually have a really good interview. Start with the most recent and work your way backwards or select based on title.

Yes, the Holy Post is a favorite of mine. 

[kbutton]

Russell Moore hosted Beth Moore (not a relative) for the first episode of his podcast relaunch when he moved to Christianity Today. They talk about when to know it's time to move on to a new church, etc. I found it really helpful.

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I generally think spitting (at least in public) is disgusting, but I'll make an exception in this case. Spit away, @MercyA. It's appropriate in this situation. I'm sorry you're stuck in one of those partisan bubbles. It must be awful.

For those readers disgusted with the state of (I assume in this context) Evangelicalism, The Holy Post podcasts, https://www.holypost.com/holy-post-podcast hosted by the artist formerly known as Bob the Tomato, might be a good fit for you.  It's more chattery than I prefer, but they get it and the end of the podcasts usually have a really good interview. Start with the most recent and work your way backwards or select based on title.

Yes! I love the Holy Post. 

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

Russell Moore hosted Beth Moore (not a relative) for the first episode of his podcast relaunch when he moved to Christianity Today. They talk about when to know it's time to move on to a new church, etc. I found it really helpful.

Also listened to this one. And it was great.

[J-rap]

I'm really sorry that's going on with your church.  It doesn't make me angry so much anymore, just super sad and absolutely baffled that people choose to bury their heads.  But then, I can see where churches for a long time have taught that we don't have to listen to science, because they know better!  And they feel like they have to come up with (the strangest) explanations in order to literally support certain things in the Bible which weren't really meant to be literally interpreted.  That, and of course how politics have twisted the church.  This is the result of that.

I saw a video the other day of how both science and faith, if you keep peeling away the layers, will eventually lead to the same truth.  You don't need to deny science to hold on to faith.  That needs to be taught in churches.  God is the creator of science!

All that said, would you consider changing churches?  This type of cognitive dissonance will keep coming up, if not about Covid, then something else.  If I remember correctly, did you say in an earlier thread that your dh is no longer attending the church?

We attend an annabaptist leaning church that is very gospel-centered and accepts science and facts of nature and believes the Kingdom of God lies outside of any political party.   I went to my first in-person service two weeks ago since the pandemic, and everyone was masked, with empty chairs between family units.  It's so refreshing to live in consistency of belief.

I'm sure you have mixed feelings...  Like, maybe if you stay, you can be an example.  Or if you live in a small town, there probably aren't a lot of options.  But I think that's different when you have children who are trying to figure things out, and at some point, the cognitive dissonance might be too much for them to accept.  

Sometimes there are no easy answers.  

I'd recommend reading Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd.  It provides a lot of good answers to people who are caught in the partisan bubble right now, but also, what it means to be a Christian in society today.  (In case you have the energy to engage in conversations with fellow congregants, or even to discuss with your dd.)  Another good book is The Slavery of Death by Richard Beck (kind of a daunting title, but it really has little to do with death!).  He talks about how Christ-like love often means doing things we don't want to do, simply to show others that we care.  And how easy it is for people to get caught up in the systems of this world.

I was thinking the other day of how the main message of Christ is simply to love one another -- no ifs, ands, or buts.  But how often do we actually hear that in churches today?  Anyway, sorry to go on and on.  I just feel so strongly about all of this!

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by J-rap

[MooCow]

I don't have any advice, just want you to know I'm praying for your situation. 

[Tanaqui]

Oh, no, don't spit. Not because it's disgusting (though it is) but because it probably spreads Covid. Also, are you going to take off your mask first or...?

No, don't. But please do change churches if possible. You deserve to be able to worship with people who aren't out to see you dead and then blame God.

[DreamerGirl]

Oh @MercyA. I am so sorry.

I have walked this journey starting at a much older age in the US and it is incredibly hard. 

It is very hard to keep a faith and believe in the teachings of a God when surrounded by his followers seemingly doing opposite in my experience. So please change your church if possible even it is a church you have a lot invested which can be  hard as well.

Also, look for churches in places like online. It does not have to look like a building to be "church" in my experience.

My way was to find community online in my home church in my country of origin. 

I can't say I am 100% successful or my faith is strong, I go through phases, but it is a journey by itself. It is very different than what my parents and even my grandparents practiced. In the end my faith and belief had to be my own and so will my children.

All you can really do is give your child up to God. Her faith journey will be her own and may not look like your own at all. But isn't that what life looks like.

I will keep you and your DD in my prayers ((hugs)).

Edited November 4, 2021 by DreamerGirl

[SounderChick]

I'm so sorry I understand completely.   Our church hasn't had any deaths.  A large portion all got covid last winter and were fine  which just supported their viewpoint that it's a cold.   Of course they are mostly in their 30's thin and healthy. 

I want to leave our church but DH isn't quite there. It's been rough.

Edited November 4, 2021 by rebcoola

[MooCow]

1 hour ago, DreamerGirl said:

 @MercyA

It is very different than what my parents and even my grandparents practiced. In the end my faith and belief had to be my own and so will my children.

All you can really do is give your child up to God. Her faith journey will be her own and may not look like your own at all. But isn't that what life looks like.

I will keep you and your DD in my prayers ((hugs)).

Thanks for this! I'm often amazed that my dad and stepmom have no issue that I'm a totally different religion than them. They're from India too. 

[DreamerGirl]

5 minutes ago, MooCow said:

Thanks for this! I'm often amazed that my dad and stepmom have no issue that I'm a totally different religion than them. They're from India too. 

Thank you.

I grew up with good people of multiple religions who are devout.

So it helps knowing that being a good person does not apply to a particular religion or even having a religion as I have since learned in my journey.

[AngelaR]

7 hours ago, chiguirre said:

I'm so sorry Mercy, that's terrible.

 

That said, you need to find a new church. When people tell you who they are, you need to believe them. 

Not so easy to do in that geographic area. I, also, am in the Midwest, where—amongst Evangelical “Christians”—the thinking and behavior is exactly as Mercy described.  I am also so colossally disillusioned in my fellow “Christians” who refuse to show Christ’s love for others by wearing masks, and are adamantly against vaccinations for “religious reasons.”  We have quit going to church…and I don’t know if we will start back anytime soon.  We are moving to Shreveport, LA, which I assume is going to be a hotbed of “Trump is Savior of the World”  “COVID is a hoax,” “you can’t make me get a vaccine,” “faith not fear” types so I really REALLY don’t see us returning to church anytime soon, unless the Lord works a miracle and allows us to find some genuine, not-crazy lovers of Jesus.  

[MercyA]

On 11/4/2021 at 11:50 AM, J-rap said:

All that said, would you consider changing churches?  This type of cognitive dissonance will keep coming up, if not about Covid, then something else.  If I remember correctly, did you say in an earlier thread that your dh is no longer attending the church?

I'm sure you have mixed feelings...  Like, maybe if you stay, you can be an example.  Or if you live in a small town, there probably aren't a lot of options.  But I think that's different when you have children who are trying to figure things out, and at some point, the cognitive dissonance might be too much for them to accept.  

Not now, no, due to [deleted for privacy].

We do live in a very small town, so not a lot of options. There's an Anabaptist church not too far away that could possibly be a good fit at some point. Pro-peace, pro-immigrants, pro-caring about others during a pandemic, but also theologically conservative. [deleted]

[deleted]

DD has understanding beyond her years about all this, and I am grateful, but it is of course frustrating to her.

***Please don't quote.***

Edited November 6, 2021 by MercyA

[MercyA]

Thank you all so much for the encouragement and prayers. I appreciate them more than you know. You are my peeps.

Edited November 4, 2021 by MercyA

[ktgrok]

35 minutes ago, AngelaR said:

Not so easy to do in that geographic area. I, also, am in the Midwest, where—amongst Evangelical “Christians”—the thinking and behavior is exactly as Mercy described.  I am also so colossally disillusioned in my fellow “Christians” who refuse to show Christ’s love for others by wearing masks, and are adamantly against vaccinations for “religious reasons.”  We have quit going to church…and I don’t know if we will start back anytime soon.  We are moving to Shreveport, LA, which I assume is going to be a hotbed of “Trump is Savior of the World”  “COVID is a hoax,” “you can’t make me get a vaccine,” “faith not fear” types so I really REALLY don’t see us returning to church anytime soon, unless the Lord works a miracle and allows us to find some genuine, not-crazy lovers of Jesus.  

Would you consider a more "mainstream" denomination? They may have different views than you on certain topics, but are not likely to be preaching about those topics from the pulpit anyway, so maybe easier to deal with than blatant stuff? Like, easier to disagree on say, abortion or gay marriage than immigration and health care?

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, AngelaR said:

Not so easy to do in that geographic area. I, also, am in the Midwest, where—amongst Evangelical “Christians”—the thinking and behavior is exactly as Mercy described.  I am also so colossally disillusioned in my fellow “Christians” who refuse to show Christ’s love for others by wearing masks, and are adamantly against vaccinations for “religious reasons.”  We have quit going to church…and I don’t know if we will start back anytime soon.  We are moving to Shreveport, LA, which I assume is going to be a hotbed of “Trump is Savior of the World”  “COVID is a hoax,” “you can’t make me get a vaccine,” “faith not fear” types so I really REALLY don’t see us returning to church anytime soon, unless the Lord works a miracle and allows us to find some genuine, not-crazy lovers of Jesus.  

We are feeling this so profoundly. I think we'll end up at a church that had a mediocre response to Covid but is hopefully keeping a lid on the Trump Cult. Then, at least we're not having to go back to the people that personally didn't care enough about us to respond well to Covid. If we do this, I told DH that I want to ask the pastor(s) point blank what I should do if I hear nationalistic/dominionist/ra-ra Trump/Make American Godly Again propaganda in small groups--as in, can I vent to the pastor personally? I really think that there are a lot of pastors that land mildly on the side of those worshipping Trump and minimize its effects. Then there are those that maybe just don't want to know, have their head in the sand, or feel like they have to tread carefully, but they will take a stand if it gets out of hand...I hope. 

I feel like we literally need to move to have a decent chance at finding a church where I won't want to tear my hair out.

I don't know how far out of the box, I can go, @ktgrok, though I know you weren't asking me, but I am asking myself that all the time. Part of the issue is that many homeschool groups are also caught up in this, sigh. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, kbutton said:

 

I don't know how far out of the box, I can go, @ktgrok, though I know you weren't asking me, but I am asking myself that all the time. Part of the issue is that many homeschool groups are also caught up in this, sigh. 

I get it. I had to give up something very important to me, as far as religion goes, to find the place I'm at now. It was not an easy trade off, but at the end of the day, this is the place where people are following the commandments to love God and love their neighbor. And I realized that was what was essential for me. 

[gardenmom5]

re: the masks don't work . . 

I was at a B&B summer of 2020 in a more rural area of my state.  I had one vendor who was rather "surprised" I was so willing to mask.  I referred her back to the Spanish flu.  Areas that masked, had lower case counts and mortality than areas that didn't.  As I explained that to the one who was skeptical - she was more willing to see there was "a point" to masking.

And I guess they don't care if their medical providers mask during surgery etc . . . . .

My mom had COPD and asthma - she would mask, especially if the pollen counts were high.  Masks work.

 

adding: I developed pneumonia in Jan/Feb of 2020. (we had active cases within ten miles of me.)  I was treated as if I had covid until the tests came back clearing me.  (they didn't tell me they were testing me - but I was on droplet protocols. Staff was masked, gloved, and gowned in my presence.  The night I came in, nurses even wore face shields on top of their masks. I was kept isolated from other patients and staff.)

Edited November 4, 2021 by gardenmom5

[MercyA]

On 11/4/2021 at 6:44 PM, kbutton said:

We are feeling this so profoundly. I think we'll end up at a church that had a mediocre response to Covid but is hopefully keeping a lid on the Trump Cult. Then, at least we're not having to go back to the people that personally didn't care enough about us to respond well to Covid. If we do this, I told DH that I want to ask the pastor(s) point blank what I should do if I hear nationalistic/dominionist/ra-ra Trump/Make American Godly Again propaganda in small groups--as in, can I vent to the pastor personally? I really think that there are a lot of pastors that land mildly on the side of those worshipping Trump and minimize its effects. Then there are those that maybe just don't want to know, have their head in the sand, or feel like they have to tread carefully, but they will take a stand if it gets out of hand...I hope. 

I feel like we literally need to move to have a decent chance at finding a church where I won't want to tear my hair out.

I don't know how far out of the box, I can go, @ktgrok, though I know you weren't asking me, but I am asking myself that all the time. Part of the issue is that many homeschool groups are also caught up in this, sigh. 

One thing I do really appreciate about my pastor--in spite of his views on COVID--is that he tries very hard to keep politics out of the pulpit. Even in adult Sunday School, he tries to steer the conversation back to Scripture when it veers into political territory. [Deleted for privacy.] And we do try to feed the hungry, both at our facilities and through support of our local food pantry.

My church is very imperfect, but I do still love them. They are still family. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by MercyA

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Would you consider a more "mainstream" denomination? They may have different views than you on certain topics, but are not likely to be preaching about those topics from the pulpit anyway, so maybe easier to deal with than blatant stuff? Like, easier to disagree on say, abortion or gay marriage than immigration and health care?

I know this isn't addressed to me, but believe me that I've thought through these things.

The sticking point for me is this: even if they don't preach on these topics, their view on some of them tells me a lot about how they view Scripture overall. And that's a significant thing to me.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

One thing I do really appreciate about my pastor--in spite of his views on COVID--is that he tries very hard to keep politics out of the pulpit. Even in adult Sunday School, he tries to steer the conversation back to Scripture when it veers into political territory. People actually left the church when he refused to endorse Trump. And we do try to feed the hungry, both at our facilities and through support of our local food pantry.

My church is very imperfect, but I do still love them. They are still family. 

My pastor told us there was only one choice of who to vote for, and we all knew what it meant. He also said multiple times from the pulpit that nationalism is the biblical view of things, and that people in other countries should be nationalistic toward their country also. 

They do a lot of good, including food pantry work. 

The Covid response was probably better at my church than yours, but it was a situation where they refused to enforce the protections they asked people to follow. With multiple services, they could've found a way to make both sides feel comfortable, and they chose not to.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

 

My church is very imperfect, but I do still love them. They are still family. 

I get this. For me, the point of leaving was when the church felt like a barrier to my relationship with God, rather than a doorway bringing me closer to God. That's when I knew I had to leave. And yes, it meant giving up some thing very important to me.. But in the end, I decided me doing what Jesus said to do in how I live my life, and having a community that supported that, was more important than anything else, any belief, etc. 

I was not sure it was the right thing until after I left and got some space. Not saying you should. Just that I get how big a decision it is. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by ktgrok

[AngelaR]

5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Would you consider a more "mainstream" denomination? They may have different views than you on certain topics, but are not likely to be preaching about those topics from the pulpit anyway, so maybe easier to deal with than blatant stuff? Like, easier to disagree on say, abortion or gay marriage than immigration and health care?

I’m embarrassed to ask, having been born into, brought up in and essentially been “marinated” in Evangelical World…what denominations might you be referring to?  Are you talking Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, Methodist?  I’ve been dabbling in reading from The Book of Common Prayer, because I just yearned to get away from 21st Century Thinking about what a “Christian” is, and wanted more historical context. No idea if that’s actually what one gets in the BofCP, but it seemed like a good place to start. Anyway, that and your comment about finding a mainstream denomination led me to a website for an Anglican Church in Shreveport that_wait for it!_practices social distancing and masking!!!!  I nearly fell over. Definitely will give them a try when we move, but hubs will not be on board with the sitting/standing/kneeling but oh well!  

[HS Mom in NC]

7 minutes ago, AngelaR said:

I’m embarrassed to ask, having been born into, brought up in and essentially been “marinated” in Evangelical World…what denominations might you be referring to? 

I left the Evangelical world (Baptist, Bible Church, Calvary Chapel) for a conservative Presbyterian church.  It was brewing long before COVID, but the crazy political crap sent me over the edge.  While I don't agree with them on all doctrines and practices, I do agree with them on the (to me) essentials, so I can worship with them without it being a bid deal. They still have a sign on the entrance saying, "We recommend you follow CDC Guidelines." They do.

Also, I've found the BOCP useful too.  I started using it several years ago as part of my prayer life. I've also been reading some classics of Christendom from various eras of history by people from different branches of Christianity.  The Imitation of Christ is my favorite so far.

[YaelAldrich]

24 minutes ago, AngelaR said:

but hubs will not be on board with the sitting/standing/kneeling but oh well!  

Tell him it's a Biblical exercise program? Joking but maybe not? 

[ktgrok]

36 minutes ago, AngelaR said:

I’m embarrassed to ask, having been born into, brought up in and essentially been “marinated” in Evangelical World…what denominations might you be referring to?  Are you talking Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic, Methodist?  I’ve been dabbling in reading from The Book of Common Prayer, because I just yearned to get away from 21st Century Thinking about what a “Christian” is, and wanted more historical context. No idea if that’s actually what one gets in the BofCP, but it seemed like a good place to start. Anyway, that and your comment about finding a mainstream denomination led me to a website for an Anglican Church in Shreveport that_wait for it!_practices social distancing and masking!!!!  I nearly fell over. Definitely will give them a try when we move, but hubs will not be on board with the sitting/standing/kneeling but oh well!  

Yes, those are traditionally thought of as "mainstream" protestant denominations. Episcopal, Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran are all in that category, and at the progressive end would be the United Church of Christ (not Church of Christ, which is different) and Disciples of Christ I think. 

Within those there are varying levels of formality, with some having both contemporary and more traditional services each Sunday, at different times. 

Also, to clarify, the Anglican churches in the US are a more conservative group that split from the Episcopal church in the US and are not part of the Anglican Communion at large. It gets complicated, lol. 

[SoCal_Bear]

The Holy Post had a really good discussion about evagelicism. Evngelicals haven't stopped being evangelicals. They posed the thought that what is happening is the fundamentalists have adopted evangelicals because they don't want to be called fundementalists. anymore. That discussion which also talked about this idea of elite evangelicals. It's here in episode 479. The Great American Divorce is also really good. I find myself pondering this interesting question: How do you explain how anger and malice has come to be embraced as a virtue among so many Christians today? I will link both....

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by calbear

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I left the Evangelical world (Baptist, Bible Church, Calvary Chapel) for a conservative Presbyterian church.  

I think of conservative Presbyterians as evangelicals, so I am confused. Is it a mainline church that is conservative vs. something like PCA? 

1 hour ago, AngelaR said:

Anyway, that and your comment about finding a mainstream denomination led me to a website for an Anglican Church in Shreveport that_wait for it!_practices social distancing and masking!!!!  I nearly fell over. Definitely will give them a try when we move, but hubs will not be on board with the sitting/standing/kneeling but oh well!  

I've been eyeballing a FB page for an Anglican church as well, and they do masks and distancing according the the website (but so did my old church until June according to their website, but they didn't). 

59 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Also, to clarify, the Anglican churches in the US are a more conservative group that split from the Episcopal church in the US and are not part of the Anglican Communion at large. It gets complicated, lol. 

I've been trying to research, but it is complicated. I think the one near me is conservative. 

48 minutes ago, calbear said:

The Holy Post had a really good discussion about evagelicism. Evngelicals haven't stopped being evangelicals. They posed the thought that what is happening is the fundamentalists have adopted evangelicals because they don't want to be called fundementalists. anymore.

Hmm...the SBC church we left would be considered evangelical and not fundamentalist. I think the SBC is becoming fundamentalist but in a way that is very different from the fundamentalism around me growing up. I will check out the podcasts--I am behind a bit.

There was also an article, maybe by David French, that talked about how Trump "grew" evangelicalism...as in his politics led to more people identifying that way even if they don't attend church. Very bizarre! 

 

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, kbutton said:

 

I've been trying to research, but it is complicated. I think the one near me is conservative. 

If they are Anglican and in the US they are conservative. 

Basically, there is the Anglican Communion, which consists of churches all over the world that are in communion with each other. In England the branch is the Anglican Church, and that name is used in many other countries as well. In the US and in Scotland the anti English sentiment was such that it made more sense to call the church something other than Anglican - so they call it the Episcopal Church, referring to the church structure rather than the country of origin.  

Then, in the US, there was controversy over women's ordination and a group split off and called itself Anglican. Then there was more controversy over LGBTQ issues and another group split off, also calling itself Anglican. (There are at least 3 different Anglican split off actually, here in the US). So there is one Anglican group that has only male priests and opposes same sex marriage, etc and another group of Anglicans (I think maybe more than one at this point) that allows women priests but not gay marriage. 

They are aligned with Anglican bishops in Africa in some cases, but not part of the worldwide Anglican Communion. 

And then, to add confusion, there are churches that are part of the. Roman Catholic Church that are referred to as Anglican Ordinariate churches, that use an old form of the Mass similar to the Anglican worship services. These are still Roman Catholic, and made up of converts from the Episcopal church. 

[Laura Corin]

17 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

If they are Anglican and in the US they are conservative. 

Basically, there is the Anglican Communion, which consists of churches all over the world that are in communion with each other. In England the branch is the Anglican Church, and that name is used in many other countries as well. In the US and in Scotland the anti English sentiment was such that it made more sense to call the church something other than Anglican - so they call it the Episcopal Church, referring to the church structure rather than the country of origin.  

Then, in the US, there was controversy over women's ordination and a group split off and called itself Anglican. Then there was more controversy over LGBTQ issues and another group split off, also calling itself Anglican. (There are at least 3 different Anglican split off actually, here in the US). So there is one Anglican group that has only male priests and opposes same sex marriage, etc and another group of Anglicans (I think maybe more than one at this point) that allows women priests but not gay marriage. 

They are aligned with Anglican bishops in Africa in some cases, but not part of the worldwide Anglican Communion. 

And then, to add confusion, there are churches that are part of the. Roman Catholic Church that are referred to as Anglican Ordinariate churches, that use an old form of the Mass similar to the Anglican worship services. These are still Roman Catholic, and made up of converts from the Episcopal church. 

Isn't the Church in England called The Church of England? But the Archbishop of Canterbury is head of both that and the Anglican Communion? 

https://www.churchofengland.org/

[HS Mom in NC]

10 hours ago, kbutton said:

I think of conservative Presbyterians as evangelicals, so I am confused. Is it a mainline church that is conservative vs. something like PCA?

The term evangelical is ever shifting.  In the current context, the term is infused with right-wing politicization, not just theological doctrinal positions.  Whatever an individual's definition, some people consider Presbies evangelical and some don't-they consider them Mainline Protestant.

It's PCA with the official statement from the pastor that he breaks from PCA on the issue of gay marriage and will not officiate same sex marriage at this church/local congregation.  We hold to the orthodox view that homosexuality is a sin as described in scripture. Most members seem to agree with that view.  

I have no idea how many agree with me that while I don't support a church doing it, I fully support a secular government, government official, and non-Christian religions/organizations/individuals officiating a same sex marriage and protecting homosexual civil rights. Scripture teaches that the standards for government and non-Christians are different than the standards for Christians. It's no different than me refusing to participate in the worship of what I consider a false god while fully supporting a person's rights and legal protections to worship any false god or no G/god if they choose.

[HS Mom in NC]

11 hours ago, calbear said:

I find myself pondering this interesting question: How do you explain how anger and malice has come to be embraced as a virtue among so many Christians today?

It's probably a combination of things:

1. The bad teachings in those churches about righteous anger. They think if they're angry about someone doing something wrong (usually someone not professing to be Christian)  they're automatically righteous.  In their minds, the more angry they are the more righteous they are. They equate not being outwardly angry with being complicit in sin for some strange reason-mostly to impress people who agree with them. They consider insulting language against their political enemies "moral courage" while entirely disregarding the fact that Christians are supposed to fight spiritual  enemies with prayer and human enemies with prayer, love, and service.

2. The prosperity gospel heresy (a form of materialism) taught in various forms that God rewards doing good and punishes doing bad even on a national scale, so to prosper, we as a nation have to do good by biblical definitions and that means political control to legislate some goodness.  Also, that peace and prosperity are the only valid measures of God's blessing/favor, which again requires political power to accomplish legislatively.

3. Legalism.  Doing/wanting what looks good outwardly is what really matters, and the ends justify the means, and the inward state isn't important. Doing outward things like legislating, confronting and prosecuting people  are how they imagine themselves [tough] loving people and doing God's will.

4. Inherited "faith" that never resulted in sincere, transformative conversion.  When a soul isn't regenerated and reborn by the Holy Spirit you get this mess if society is no longer "Christianized." Since the greater culture isn't pressuring people to at least outwardly look like it's Christian anymore, the status and perks that came with looking at least outwardly Christian disappeared, causing resentment in those who don't really have a grasp that true Christianity is to be a living sacrifice. Sacrificial living isn't something they're interested in.

5. Having a proxy to disobey God.  They have convinced themselves that letting political candidates nastily voice thoughts and feelings that parallel their own they keep deep down inside isn't sinful.  

[MercyA]

.

Edited November 6, 2021 by MercyA

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

The term evangelical is ever shifting.  In the current context, the term is infused with right-wing politicization, not just theological doctrinal positions.  

There's an interesting op-ed about this trend in the NYT. I've quoted some highlights for those who are paywalled.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/opinion/evangelical-republican.html

 

Quote

 

This is happening in two different ways. The first is that many Americans who have begun to embrace the evangelical identity are people who hardly ever attend religious services. For instance, in 2008, just 16 percent of all self-identified evangelicals reported their church attendance as never or seldom. But in 2020, that number jumped to 27 percent. In 2008, about a third of evangelicals who never attended church said they were politically conservative. By 2019, that had risen to about 50 percent.

 

The second factor bolstering evangelicalism on surveys is that more people are embracing the label who have no attachment to Protestant Christianity. For example, the share of Catholics who also identified as evangelicals (or born again) rose to 15 percent in 2018 from 9 percent in 2008. That same pattern appears with Muslims. In fact, there’s evidence that the share of Orthodox Christians, Hindus and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who identify as evangelical is larger today than it was just a decade ago.

 

In essence, many Americans are coming to the understanding that to be very religiously engaged and very politically conservative means that they are evangelical, even if they don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

 

 

People have the right to identify themselves in whatever terms they want, but in the immortal words of Inigo Montoya: 

Quote

“You keep using that word. ... I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by chiguirre

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, HS Mom in NC said:

The term evangelical is ever shifting.  In the current context, the term is infused with right-wing politicization, not just theological doctrinal positions.  Whatever an individual's definition, some people consider Presbies evangelical and some don't-they consider them Mainline Protestant.

It's PCA with the official statement from the pastor that he breaks from PCA on the issue of gay marriage and will not officiate same sex marriage at this church/local congregation.  We hold to the orthodox view that homosexuality is a sin as described in scripture. Most members seem to agree with that view.  

I have no idea how many agree with me that while I don't support a church doing it, I fully support a secular government, government official, and non-Christian religions/organizations/individuals officiating a same sex marriage and protecting homosexual civil rights. Scripture teaches that the standards for government and non-Christians are different than the standards for Christians. It's no different than me refusing to participate in the worship of what I consider a false god while fully supporting a person's rights and legal protections to worship any false god or no G/god if they choose.

Wait, did PCA start accepting gay marriage??  I know the PC-USA does, but didn't think PCA did. But I admit to not following the Presbyterian denominations much in the last decade. 

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

I would love to attend an American Anglican church someday! I love the Book of Common Prayer, I love liturgy, I love reverence. My mom and dad attended an Episcopalian Church for several years looking for all those things. Unfortunately the Episcopalian Church's view of Scripture is very different from mine. My parents overlooked some things that I personally would consider deal-breakers, but they absolutely had to leave when the priest started saying things like, "Maybe Jesus didn't really say that..." 😞

My brother attends a conservative Lutheran church and I sometimes listen to a Lutheran pastor online, and I've been pleased overall with what I've seen there.

You'd probably be a good fit in the more conservative Lutheran denominations, the LCMS (Missouri Synod) would be one to look for. 

That said, for me it wasn't view of scripture, but the view of the eucharist that made leaving hard. In the end, I decided personally that how people treat other people was more important than how they treat the Eucharist (or Scripture, etc). Because we are called to love God and our neighbor, and anything that doesn't fit into those two categories comes second. If a church was loving God, and loving their fellow man (which includes taking precautions with a deadly disease), that was what mattered more than anything else. You have to of course define what those two commandments actually involve though, in your particular case. If your current church is not hindering your relationship with God, and is not a stumbling block but a beacon pointing to him, then I'd stay, I think. But when it becomes a barrier rather than a conduit...for me that was the end. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

The term evangelical is ever shifting.  In the current context, the term is infused with right-wing politicization, not just theological doctrinal positions.  Whatever an individual's definition, some people consider Presbies evangelical and some don't-they consider them Mainline Protestant.

It's PCA with the official statement from the pastor that he breaks from PCA on the issue of gay marriage and will not officiate same sex marriage at this church/local congregation.  We hold to the orthodox view that homosexuality is a sin as described in scripture. Most members seem to agree with that view.  

Oh, yes, I know it's shifting greatly. 

I thought PCA was more conservative, and PCUSA allowed gay marriage. Did that change?

[SoCal_Bear]

and don't forget about OPC!

all about the Presbyterians!

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/tell-difference-presbyterian-denominations/