50/50 parenting

[Scarlett]

Y'all must have much more confidence in attorneys than I do. 

Dh's XW filed for a cs modification....we then filed for a custody modification.  It took an ENTIRE year for it to reach mediation.  And then nothing actually changed worth anything.  Well, she did get more cs which she was due, but it was all a big nightmare and waste of money.  

That is one story out of many I have.  

If he goes and gets an attorney....here is what will happen with JUST the car issue.  Judge will say 'go to mediation'  Mediator----wife--get the car put in your name.  Wife can't, so she doesn't and guess what happens then? She pays if she wants and if she doesn't he has to pay or it ruins his credit and the only recourse he has is to file contempt charges which will take FOREVER and they still can't force her to do what she can't do.  

I am not against an attorney looking over their agreement.....but an attorney fighting out their issues is not the answer.  

 

[TarynB]

You say the wife is uninterested . . . sounds to me like she has no incentive to even get divorced. That's probably why she's uninterested in doing anything to move things along. She's no longer having to live with him and has a new boyfriend AND your dss is paying all her bills and providing childcare when she "needs a break". She's in a sweet spot right now. This needs to be done and over pronto.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Do you think she’ll stick with it though?

I’ve seen an awful lot of these types of agreements get modified/changed/not hold up in court when one party changed their mind down the road. 

Well, I don't think she will have the money for a modification.  That is why it is important that they work out a few remaining details and then get it in front of a judge.  So far she has not kept the baby from him at all and has even asked dss to come get the baby  because she needs a break.  

So far SHE hasn't been the problem with this....I mean other than causing the situation.....but HE is still in protector of the family mode.  For instance this morning while dh watched the baby he went to a thrift store in town and bought some clothes for the baby.  He did pretty good on what he bought....and several of the items he said, 'Oh those are to send to his mom's'  I said, 'you have got to start thinking of this differently.  Let her buy the clothes for her house and you buy the clothes for your house.'  He nodded and said he knew I was right.  (Not that I think it is a big deal to buy a few pieces of clothing to send to the mom's house, but RIGHT NOW as broke as he is and as much as he is supporting her YES, he needs to stop.)

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, TarynB said:

You say the wife is uninterested . . . sounds to me like she has no incentive to even get divorced. That's probably why she's uninterested in doing anything to move things along. She's no longer having to live with him and has a new boyfriend AND your dss is paying all her bills and providing childcare when she "needs a break". She's in a sweet spot right now. This needs to be done and over pronto.

Exactly my thinking.  

[Spryte]

I think, bluntly, your DSS needs to hear from someone who has authority (other than you) or an understanding of the law, what his obligations are. You are steering him the right way, but someone else is feeding him different info and he’s accepting it. If he thinks he needs to provide her with a car, has to agree to her claiming kid each year on taxes, pay for her rent for now, etc, then he’s got wrong info. I think a free consult with an attorney would give him some solid info—that he desperately needs.

Of course I know you are giving him good info, you have a lot of applicable experience, but for whatever reason he doesn’t quite believe you. He needs to hear it from someone else, for whatever reason.

It sounds like you felt let down by your attorney, or didn’t have a good experience. That’s a shame, I’m sorry. We didn’t always have great experiences either.

An attorney won’t magically make everything better. But one could at least explain to your DSS his obligations so DSS has a better understanding moving forward.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Spryte

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I think, bluntly, your DSS needs to hear from someone who has authority (other than you) or an understanding of the law, what his obligations are. You are steering him the right way, but someone else is feeding him different info and he’s accepting it. If he thinks he needs to provide her with a car, has to agree to her claiming kid each year on taxes, pay for her rent for now, etc, then he’s got wrong info. I think a free consult with an attorney would give him some solid info—that he desperately needs.

Of course I know you are giving him good info, you have a lot of applicable experience, but for whatever reason he doesn’t quite believe you. He needs to hear it from someone else, for whatever reason.

It sounds like you felt let down by your attorney, or didn’t have a good experience. That’s a shame, I’m sorry. We didn’t always have great experiences either.

An attorney won’t magically make everything better. But one could at least explain to your DSS his obligations so DSS has a better understanding moving forward.

It sure won't hurt to have a consult.  So maybe he will.  But he IS listening to us. That is why it is so good he is coming to our house when he gets the baby.  It is valuable time with him to help him sort through the bs he believes (on his own or from someone else).  He is not doing everything we think he should (for instance I don't think he is going to take the day job right now---says he can't afford to while he still has this lease hanging over his head mainly....and the car issue too) but he is hearing the more fundamental things we are saying....like you have to start thinking of yourself and baby and she (stbXW) is NOT a part of your obligation.

[Murphy101]

6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 

Oh and on top of all that she informed dss25 she is cutting back on the baby's milk because it is too expensive.  Which screams total manipulation to me.....because of course he told her would buy the milk. (and she is getting WIC)  On that one we said 'yes buy the baby milk--heck WE will buy the baby milk, but you have got to stop thinking you have to solve her problems. "

That’s not just manipulation. It’s child neglect. And a judge will damn well take note of that. I hope she was stupid enough to text that to him for evidence. 

5 hours ago, Scarlett said:

He can get an attorney. But he is still going to need to talk to her. They cannot afford to fight this out in court. Not to mention there’s nothing really to fight over. She’s already agreed to 50-50 custody. And they do not have anything at value just  debt. 

SHE can’t afford to fight it. HE can afford to take all that money he is spending on her crap for an attorney. And probably without much fight if she can’t afford one for herself.

 

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

This depends on state law; I do not know what it is in Oklahoma, but I have lived in states in which a spouse is legally obligated to the lender even if they were not aware the debt was taken out, did not sign any paperwork, and their name does not appear on the loan.

In Oklahoma spouses are liable for each other’s debts. I don’t have to be on any of the debt my husband incurs to be liable in court for it.

Frankly in Oklahoma divorce affects credit almost like bankruptcy so he might as well take the credit it now and save the money for things he and his son are going to need. And he really needs to reconsider if he even wants to share custody with a woman who has time for a boyfriend and no bills bc your son pays them all but still can’t be bothered to make sure his baby is properly fed. That infuriates me. If she can smoke (I thought you said she smokes - right?) she can damn well buy formula.

Your son is drowning and desperately needs 1) a lawyer and 2) counseling.  To say this isn’t an emergency because he still has his head above water and so let’s wait to toss him a life preserver until he goes under is denial of how bad this has gotten based on the information you have given so far and it greatly reduces how much help tossing the preserver to someone who’s gone under is likely to be.   I’d sit him down and tell that I know he is really feeling emotionally and physically battered and we want to help. Here are the numbers of some lawyers. Me or Dh will go with him if he wants or not if he doesn’t. But this situation is not tenable for anyone or stable for the baby - let’s talk to some professionals about what is realistic and how to best handle things.  Because we don’t want to pile on him but we want him to get the help he needs and this has gone way beyond mom and dad’s expertise. 

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

That’s not just manipulation. It’s child neglect. And a judge will damn well take note of that. I hope she was stupid enough to text that to him for evidence. 
 

It was not text and he did not catch it on recording….he has been doing a lot of recording.  

SHE can’t afford to fight it. HE can afford to take all that money he is spending on her crap for an attorney. And probably without much fight if she can’t afford one for herself.

I feel like this point keeps getting missed but he says she has agreed on terms. So there is no need to fight…just a need to get it in writing and signed by a judge.  If she changes her mind then a fight might be on….but so far no need for fighting.  

In Oklahoma spouses are liable for each other’s debts. I don’t have to be on any of the debt my husband incurs to be liable in court for it.

If the debt is not in your name and a judge divides it so that each pays what is in your name then no you are not liable for it.  All they have is two stupid cars at high interest rate. But he is currently divulging that his credit is already destroyed. 

Frankly in Oklahoma divorce affects credit almost like bankruptcy so he might as well take the credit it now and save the money for things he and his son are going to need. And he really needs to reconsider if he even wants to share custody with a woman who has time for a boyfriend and no bills bc your son pays them all but still can’t be bothered to make sure his baby is properly fed. That infuriates me. If she can smoke (I thought you said she smokes - right?) she can damn well buy formula.

Your son is drowning and desperately needs 1) a lawyer and 2) counseling.  To say this isn’t an emergency because he still has his head above water and so let’s wait to toss him a life preserver until he goes under is denial of how bad this has gotten based on the information you have given so far and it greatly reduces how much help tossing the preserver to someone who’s gone under is likely to be.   I’d sit him down and tell that I know he is really feeling emotionally and physically battered and we want to help. Here are the numbers of some lawyers. Me or Dh will go with him if he wants or not if he doesn’t. But this situation is not tenable for anyone or stable for the baby - let’s talk to some professionals about what is realistic and how to best handle things.  Because we don’t want to pile on him but we want him to get the help he needs and this has gone way beyond mom and dad’s expertise. 

 

[Scarlett]

Whew another stressful few hours of discussions after baby was bathed and put down. There are a lot of things in play and he is doing the best he can…..he is definitely listening to us even if he is t doing everything we suggest.

He is  a stubborn man/boy…….it has always been his weakness……but he has listened more and engaged more in the last few weeks than at any point in his life. So that is encouraging and we are hopeful he ends up ok from this nightmare. 

[Scarlett]

Dss25 came with the baby yesterday and spent the night.  He had my handwritten notes of issues that need to be agreed upon.  He was able to sit and talk with her last weekend about everything on my list and they agreed on everything.  He has a job interview on Monday for a day job M-F for only $3 less per hour instead of $5 less so I think he will take it if offered. 

We are going to wait and see how the job interview pans out and also get through next weekend's holiday (He is going to her parents for TG).  Then we will set him up with our paralegal friend.  There are a few questions I think she will be able to answer...for instance they want to say they will just split the holidays equally....I don't know if a judge will sign off on that or if they need a detail list.  Honestly they might end up being one of those sets of parents who are reasonable and agreeable and put the baby first.  

She would not agree to week on/week off for now.  She thinks it will work when he is 4 or so, but for now they are doing the 2/2/3 schedule.  Which I can see the benefits of but it would drive me insane having to constantly remember if this is my day or not.  But whatever....not my life or my schedule.  

Oh and the STBXW is having surgery in 3 weeks.  I think it is a hysterectomy which is a little shocking....but I guess she has had a lot of pain from ???  endometriosis or some such....not sure. I am really surprised doctors are suggesting a hysterectomy for a 23 year old.   

[ktgrok]

On 11/11/2021 at 12:02 PM, hjffkj said:

Oh man, that all sounds so crazy. I know you don't think a lawyer is a good option but I really think your dss needs one because he has no real grasp on what is acceptable to expect during the separation and divorce process.  He is going to continue to wreck his finances and let his stbx walk all over him.  I was completely on board with you that lawyers are not necessary but that is only if the people who would normally use them are educated well enough or have the drive to educate themselves well enough to go without them. It does not sound like your dss has the drive or maybe just energy and time to figure this stuff out on his own.

Would legal aid be able to help him understand his options, what a judge is going to require, etc? Not "hiring a lawyer" or "going after his ex" but just to go over what is expected? Maybe you set it up and for a time you or his dad can go with him?

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Would legal aid be able to help him understand his options, what a judge is going to require, etc? Not "hiring a lawyer" or "going after his ex" but just to go over what is expected? Maybe you set it up and for a time you or his dad can go with him?

I feel fairly confident the paralegal will guide him in any area we all haven't thought of.  She has 40 years experience in this state with family law and custody. And she worked in the county that stbxw lives in so she knows what the judges expect and give.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I feel fairly confident the paralegal will guide him in any area we all haven't thought of.  She has 40 years experience in this state with family law and custody. And she worked in the county that stbxw lives in so she knows what the judges expect and give.

That's good! Yes, it can be VERY local. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, ktgrok said:

That's good! Yes, it can be VERY local. 

Isn't that the truth.  

[WildflowerMom]

Why are y'all waiting to see the paralegal?    Can you ask her to the house or something and get ds' ducks in a row, ASAP?  

[Lecka]

I am glad he has your support!

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Why are y'all waiting to see the paralegal?    Can you ask her to the house or something and get ds' ducks in a row, ASAP?  

There is just no time.  We can set him up to meet with her whenever he can do it.  When we talked last night he wanted to see how this job interview pans out on Monday.  I am sure he will want us to  be there with him and with such conflicting schedules and how far away he works and 'lives' it is almost impossible right now to get together.  

But you are right, it needs to be done asap.  

I am just so glad he decided to go ahead and make the leap to days even with a pay cut.  Last week he was pretty adamant he couldn't do it until this lease gets resolved....now he is ready to move forward.  He definitely wants a better schedule to  be able to parent his child.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Isn't that the truth.  

Yup. When I got divorced the county rules were no mediation needed if both parties agreed and had it in writing. BUT....a new judge at ONE courthouse decided all divorces had to have remediation, and since our case hadn't been processed yet, they put us in the needs remediation pile. Except we didn't KNOW that as that wasn't the rule when we filed the paperwork. I kept calling and calling and finally someone realized what had happened and we scheduled (and paid for) mediation - which consisted of a man looking at what we had already drawn up and signed, stamping it, and us leaving. I think it was $200 for 5 minutes of nothing. Sigh. 

Had we filed at the courthouse 15 minutes across town we'd have been divorced months earlier, with no mediation. 

[Scarlett]

32 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yup. When I got divorced the county rules were no mediation needed if both parties agreed and had it in writing. BUT....a new judge at ONE courthouse decided all divorces had to have remediation, and since our case hadn't been processed yet, they put us in the needs remediation pile. Except we didn't KNOW that as that wasn't the rule when we filed the paperwork. I kept calling and calling and finally someone realized what had happened and we scheduled (and paid for) mediation - which consisted of a man looking at what we had already drawn up and signed, stamping it, and us leaving. I think it was $200 for 5 minutes of nothing. Sigh. 

Had we filed at the courthouse 15 minutes across town we'd have been divorced months earlier, with no mediation. 

That is crazy.  I am glad you were able to have such an easy divorce overall though.  

When I went home at lunch, dss25 was gone but he he had left all the papers relating to the divorce on our kitchen counter.  I asked dh about it and he said dss25 is ready to pull the trigger come Monday after his job interview.  

I thought he seemed 'better'...not so devastated but dh said he was opening up a bit when I left for work.  Dss25 can't understand how his wife could do this and he can't understand why he still loves her....Sad.  😞

[lmrich]

Just hugs! That is a lot to deal with but glad you are there for the baby. 

[Scarlett]

Dss25 went for the interview.  He says he has the job....right now waiting to see if they have a supervisor job available which would be twice the money....the hours will be pretty stable.....he will have to work events but those are planned at minimum 30 days in advance so plenty of time to plan with regards to child care.  

His current job changed his hours to M-F midnight to 8:00 a.m.....so after his interview yesterday he came to our house to sleep.  He got up at 10:00 and left at 10:45....I was already asleep by the time he left but dh stayed up and fed him and made him coffee. 

Anyway, that is a brutal schedule.  And it is not doable for him living at our house even temporarily.  We had to keep the dogs quiet and we had to do our best to be quiet while cooking supper....it was pretty bad.

Hopefully he can change to the new job soon!   Non supervisor job will be 7-3 Monday through Friday. And he is pretty sure day care opens at 6:00.

[Scarlett]

I just read on a Father's Rights Group that OK has just passed legislation that says 50/50 needs to be the standard and if a judge deviates from that he has to state his reasons and they need to be legit.  (My non-legal paraphrase of it).  It is a step in the right direction BUT AR did something similar several years ago and the judges there largely ignored the law.

[freesia]

That’s a great update.  I hope supervisor job comes through. 

[hippymamato3]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I just read on a Father's Rights Group that OK has just passed legislation that says 50/50 needs to be the standard and if a judge deviates from that he has to state his reasons and they need to be legit.  (My non-legal paraphrase of it).  It is a step in the right direction BUT AR did something similar several years ago and the judges there largely ignored the law.

I really find this horrifying...as a mom. 

[JustEm]

Just now, hippymamato3 said:

I really find this horrifying...as a mom. 

The 50/50 legislation or the fact that it is ignored?

[hippymamato3]

1 minute ago, hjffkj said:

The 50/50 legislation or the fact that it is ignored?

The legislation.

[Spryte]

3 minutes ago, hippymamato3 said:

I really find this horrifying...as a mom. 

Why?

[hippymamato3]

4 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Why?

Family, parents, and children are not well served by rigid legislation when it comes to parenting and visitation. 

[Spryte]

Just now, hippymamato3 said:

Family, parents, and children are not well served by rigid legislation when it comes to parenting and visitation. 

Oh, yes, I agree! 
 

Wasn’t sure what you meant.

[Melissa Louise]

I wouldn't be getting my info from Father's Rights groups, tbh.

[JennyD]

23 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I wouldn't be getting my info from Father's Rights groups, tbh.

Yes.  I looked up the revised statute, and while it certainly makes it easier for courts to grant shared parenting by eliminating the requirement that both parents agree to it, it does not appear to establish any kind of presumption of 50/50.  And it looks like courts have to "show their work" regardless of how they award custody, which I think is a good thing generally for the administration of justice.  

 

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, hippymamato3 said:

I really find this horrifying...as a mom. 

Well, sure.  Me too.  And I am thankful I was given sole custody and xh got limited visitation.  
But I also saw my Dh suffer his xw taking his children from him and there was NOTHING he could do.  She did not even want kids.  Dh took care of them the most.  Took them to doctors appoints, dentist appointments, bathed them, read bedtime stories, said prayers with them at night.  Took them to religious services.  She wanted the divorce.  She had the affair.  Yet somehow she gets custody and Dh was reduced to an EOW dad. 

it is never going to be right….splitting up parenting time…..but sometimes/often times innocent spouses get royally screwed by the system.. 

 

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I wouldn't be getting my info from Father's Rights groups, tbh.

I don’t know what this means.  I read it on a fathers rights page but it was posted by an attorney and it is in fact the way parenting time is being done now in many many states.  

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, hippymamato3 said:

Family, parents, and children are not well served by rigid legislation when it comes to parenting and visitation. 

Basically parents who divorce need to resolve to agree…..once it goes in to the hands of the courts it is a free for all. 

[Scarlett]

Well dss25 is just not getting it.  He has yet to accept the day job---again told his dad he 'can't afford to take the pay cut.'  

In addition, she has not paid the utilities for 2 months so he paid them.  On the apartment she was suppose to be out of weeks ago.

He ordered a part for her car and is going to fix it for her. 

He is flat broke from paying all of her bills and thus will be working double shifts all week, resulting in him not seeing his son.

The house she was suppose to be getting with workmates turned out to be a scam but don't worry it is a federal case and she has an attorney who is going to get her money back.  (insert rolling eyes emoji here)

Today dh was very very straightforward with dss25.  He told dss he MUST stop paying her way.  And that he MUST get a day job.  And until he does those two things there is not anything we can do to help.   The good news is dss did not hang up on his dad.  

So we are basically just in a holding pattern until he gets his head on straight.

[Terabith]

Still saying that what he MUST do is get a lawyer.  

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Still saying that what he MUST do is get a lawyer.  

A lawyer will not be helpful at this point.  His mind is not straight.  

[TechWife]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

A lawyer will not be helpful at this point.  His mind is not straight.  

 

A lawyer would help him get his mind straightened out.  Since he isn't listening to your dh, then it is even more critical, IMO.

Sometimes people who are not in the family are easier to take advice from than family members. I don't know why that is, but I've observed it repeatedly throughout my lifetime.

 

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 

A lawyer would help him get his mind straightened out.  Since he isn't listening to your dh, then it is even more critical, IMO.

Sometimes people who are not in the family are easier to take advice from than family members. I don't know why that is, but I've observed it repeatedly throughout my lifetime.

 

We aren't going to pay for an attorney if he won't take basic steps out of this mess he is in.  

[TechWife]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

We aren't going to pay for an attorney if he won't take basic steps out of this mess he is in.  

Sometimes people need a professional to provide a map for them so that they can take those basic steps.

What you are doing has been fine, but it's not having it's desired effect. Why not change course and have him get the professional help that he needs?

In the same way that It isn't the sick that need the doctor, it's not the people who are able to walk the path that need the guide.

 

[hippymamato3]

50 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

A lawyer will not be helpful at this point.  His mind is not straight.  

He doesn't sound to me like a man who is ready for the responsibilities of 50/50 custody. How old is he? He seems very young and immature. Also, without a separation agreement, he may very well still need to be helping her pay bills - it will look poorly on him in court if he doesn't (possibly?) 

[Harriet Vane]

Get. a. lawyer. 

[Rosie_0801]

43 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

We aren't going to pay for an attorney if he won't take basic steps out of this mess he is in.  

He was raised by a horror, married a horror and is still barely more than a kid himself.

Your head has never been as messed up as his is.

Bootstraps? What bootstraps?

[WildflowerMom]

The first consult with a lawyer is usually free.  Take advantage of that and make an appt.  

[Scarlett]

32 minutes ago, hippymamato3 said:

He doesn't sound to me like a man who is ready for the responsibilities of 50/50 custody. How old is he? He seems very young and immature. Also, without a separation agreement, he may very well still need to be helping her pay bills - it will look poorly on him in court if he doesn't (possibly?) 

He probably isn’t ideal parent material and neither is she but they are his parents.  
 

They had an agreement on who pays what and that she would be moving out of the apartment . Every time she fails to do her part he rushes in and picks up the pieces. And pays. And pays. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Scarlett

[Scarlett]

21 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

The first consult with a lawyer is usually free.  Take advantage of that and make an appt.  

We aren’t doing that. He can if he wants. 

[Scarlett]

23 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

He was raised by a horror, married a horror and is still barely more than a kid himself.

Your head has never been as messed up as his is.

Bootstraps? What bootstraps?

We are willing to help him  A LOT, but we won’t help him as long as he is giving his entire check to support her and creating a situation where he can’t see his baby. 
 

So no we aren’t saying to pull himself up by his bootstraps. We are requesting a bare min of good decisions. 

[Rosie_0801]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So no we aren’t saying to pull himself up by his bootstraps. We are requesting a bare min of good decisions. 

You're asking him to stop having trauma responses. That's a big ask.
That's what he's doing. Freeze and fawn.

[theelfqueen]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

We are willing to help him  A LOT, but we won’t help him as long as he is giving his entire check to support her and creating a situation where he can’t see his baby. 
 

So no we aren’t saying to pull himself up by his bootstraps. We are requesting a bare min of good decisions. 

He needs someone outside of the situation, with knowledge and experience to help him see that the decisions which make sense to him (make more money - so keep the night job, show kindness and monetary support for the sake of his baby- pay stbx's bills).... are not, in fact, the right choices or well-advised. 

From his perspective-he is doing the right and sensible thing. Someone has told him he needs to do these things or it will cost him (probably her or her friends) ... that to do less would harm his outcome with his son.

 

[TechWife]

nm

Edited November 30, 2021 by TechWife