When the online course ends up being more work for me than when I taught him myself...

[Noreen Claire]

I feel like we must be doing this wrong on our end. Or, maybe I didn't have realistic expectations going into an online writing course?

DS12 is doing WWS2 through WTMA, and he likes the class itself. And he's getting excellent grades. BUT...

I signed him up for the course because last year we spent a lot of time each day working through the text, and I didn't feel competent to assess his final writing assignment each week. I was hoping that having an actual writing instructor would help. He has class M & W, and on Tuesdays I have him pre-read the assignment for the week and start setting it up - formatting the file, setting up the endnotes and citations pages, starting any reading, etc - so he will be ahead of the game after the second class each week. Inevitably, though, I end up spending HOURS with him Th/Fr/Sat/Sun doing the actual writing assignment, writing and rewriting and going back to reread assignments earlier in the book, which requires that *I* go back and read all the steps that were discussed (or not) in the classes (that I do not listen to). I feel like I am doing the same amount of work, in fewer days, and now I'm also paying for it. Does that make sense? 

It is nice that someone else reads his work and gives him good grades (and the tiniest of corrections) each week. I guess I'm doing a good job teaching him and helping him edit his work? Is it supposed to still be this much work?

*sigh*

[Lori D.]

Ug. That's tough!

All I can say is that your DS is getting MUCH more out of this experience by having instruction/feedback from the online class PLUS individual tutoring through the writing process from you. So, yes, I do think at this age/stage (middle school), that this much work -- all of your 1-on-1 time, on top of the class -- is very normal for the typical student. And all of the time you are pouring in right now will absolutely pay off in another year or two, as your student will be able to do writing virtually solo because of the super foundation you are helping to build for him alongside the class.

It's really the best of both worlds, because students absolutely work harder (and often with less "attitude") for an outside person than for the parent. And the outsourced teacher can be the "bad guy" who assigned such a "hard assignment" 😉 and who does all the work of grading and providing feedback. And while, yes, you are pouring in a ton of work at home to tutor through the assignments, you get to be your student's ally and cheerleader -- not the "baddie" who is assigning and grading their writing. 😉 

I teach high school writing & literature at our local homeschool co-op, and the students who do the best with the writing -- if they haven't yet cleared the hurdle of being able to handle the writing assignments solo -- are those who have a parent tutor them through the assignment. Not all students come in at the high school level ready to write solo. From the few times I've taught the middle school level, that's even MORE true of middle schoolers -- they absolutely need a parent walking them through the process at home.

But if your goal was to be able to completely outsource/hand off the writing, I could see that you would be feeling exhausted and frustrated. If that is the highest need right now for you is to completely outsource with NO time neededfrom you -- perhaps a local tutor might be a more effective use of the $$$ spent?

For finishing off this semester, you might consider slowly backing off how much time YOU are putting in -- IF your student is "getting" the routine of the class and requirements for the assignments. The key parts of the writing process to be most involved in (for YOU) are brainstorming/organizing (so, yes, your longer amount of time on Tuesday for getting set up), and then revision.

And I recommend breaking revision into several short revision sessions, so YOU are only having to spend about 5-10 minutes with him at each session, and sending him off with a short checklist of things to fix, which takes him maybe 20-30 minutes. That means scheduling 1-2 revision sessions on each of Thursday and Friday. Maybe a morning and afternoon session on each day. So:

- revision session #1 = structure fixes (add what is missing; remove what isn't working; move parts for smoother flow)
- revision session #2 = sentence fixes (run-ons, fragments, and any other big sentence structure issues)
- revision session #3 = minor grammar fixes (inconsistent/wrong verb tense, switch in "voice" (1st or 2nd person of "I", "we", or "you"), etc.
- revision session #4 = style fixes (polishing word choice, replacing vague pronouns with specific nouns, etc.)

By breaking it into smaller shorter "bites", and tackling one issue at a time, he can probably handle most of each type of "big fix" on his own. Then once the revision sessions are done, do a final proof-editing sweep. That might even be possible to finish on Friday afternoon, if the revision sessions were short enough/frequent enough, or if he was able to combine 2 types of revision sessions, if not much was needed in one type of revision "fixing".

Maybe try keeping your time involvement in proof-editing shorter, and let him shoulder more of the work, and getting the feedback for missed errors. 😉 Maybe you just pencil in an arrow next to each line where there is something that needs a proof-editing fix ("small fix" -- capitalization, punctuation, doubled word, left-out word, typo or spelling error), and let him start "taking ownership" of figuring out what's wrong and how to do the needed proof-editing fix?

But again, all of that is only workable if he's able to handle "bites" of writing solo after you have a "power meeting" so he knows what to work on for each "bite" of writing time...

Most of all (((((hugs))))). It's HARD WORK getting students to take that writing baton and run with it all on their own! BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Lori D.

[Noreen Claire]

33 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Ug. That's tough!

All I can say is that your DS is getting MUCH more out of this experience by having instruction/feedback from the online class PLUS individual tutoring through the writing process from you. So, yes, I do think at this age/stage (middle school), that this much work -- all of your 1-on-1 time, on top of the class -- is very normal for the typical student. And all of the time you are pouring in right now will absolutely pay off in another year or two, as your student will be able to do writing virtually solo because of the super foundation you are helping to build for him alongside the class.

It's really the best of both worlds, because students absolutely work harder (and often with less "attitude") for an outside person than for the parent. And the outsourced teacher can be the "bad guy" who assigned such a "hard assignment" 😉 and who does all the work of grading and providing feedback. And while, yes, you are pouring in a ton of work at home to tutor through the assignments, you get to be your student's ally and cheerleader -- not the "baddie" who is assigning and grading their writing. 😉 

I teach high school writing & literature at our local homeschool co-op, and the students who do the best with the writing -- if they haven't yet cleared the hurdle of being able to handle the writing assignments solo -- are those who have a parent tutor them through the assignment. Not all students come in at the high school level ready to write solo. From the few times I've taught the middle school level, that's even MORE true of middle schoolers -- they absolutely need a parent walking them through the process at home.

But if your goal was to be able to completely outsource/hand off the writing, I could see that you would be feeling exhausted and frustrated. If that is the highest need right now for you is to completely outsource with NO time neededfrom you -- perhaps a local tutor might be a more effective use of the $$$ spent?

For finishing off this semester, you might consider slowly backing off how much time YOU are putting in -- IF your student is "getting" the routine of the class and requirements for the assignments. The key parts of the writing process to be most involved in (for YOU) are brainstorming/organizing (so, yes, your longer amount of time on Tuesday for getting set up), and then revision.

And I recommend breaking revision into several short revision sessions, so YOU are only having to spend about 5-10 minutes with him at each session, and sending him off with a short checklist of things to fix, which takes him maybe 20-30 minutes. That means scheduling 1-2 revision sessions on each of Thursday and Friday. Maybe a morning and afternoon session on each day. So:

- revision session #1 = structure fixes (add what is missing; remove what isn't working; move parts for smoother flow)
- revision session #2 = sentence fixes (run-ons, fragments, and any other big sentence structure issues)
- revision session #3 = minor grammar fixes (inconsistent/wrong verb tense, switch in "voice" (1st or 2nd person of "I", "we", or "you"), etc.
- revision session #4 = style fixes (polishing word choice, replacing vague pronouns with specific nouns, etc.)

By breaking it into smaller shorter "bites", and tackling one issue at a time, he can probably handle most of each type of "big fix" on his own. Then once the revision sessions are done, do a final proof-editing sweep. That might even be possible to finish on Friday afternoon, if the revision sessions were short enough/frequent enough, or if he was able to combine 2 types of revision sessions, if not much was needed in one type of revision "fixing".

Maybe try keeping your time involvement in proof-editing shorter, and let him shoulder more of the work, and getting the feedback for missed errors. 😉 Maybe you just pencil in an arrow next to each line where there is something that needs a proof-editing fix ("small fix" -- capitalization, punctuation, doubled word, left-out word, typo or spelling error), and let him start "taking ownership" of figuring out what's wrong and how to do the needed proof-editing fix?

But again, all of that is only workable if he's able to handle "bites" of writing solo after you have a "power meeting" so he knows what to work on for each "bite" of writing time...

Most of all (((((hugs))))). It's HARD WORK getting students to take that writing baton and run with it all on their own! BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

This is all extremely helpful, thank you! I am realizing that I did have somewhat unrealistic expectations, especially for a middle schooler who would rather be playing the piano than writing.

I think I need to read through the week's assignments earlier in the week, that way I'm not frantically trying to figure out what he's supposed to be doing after-the-fact. I can also get him thinking ahead, so we're not working so frantically at the end. ...

[cintinative]

I'm hoping @Lori D. doesn't mind me piggybacking on this question. I have a similar issue with my DS14 who is in 9th. He still needs me physically present and assisting for all writing assignments. He has very little confidence in his ability despite all the encouragement I can give, encouragement from his outsourced teachers, and A's in the classes. This is his third year with The Potter's School. I had contemplated using a group like Lantern or Write at Home but he said he wanted a live class.  Their (TPS') feedback is good, but what I worry about is when (if ever) he will be able to write without my physical presence and help.  The educational psychologist who evaluated him this summer thinks that some of these struggles stem from his stealth dyslexia (we just found) and the processing issues from that. She suggested someone she knows was using Huntington (one of the storefront tutoring type outlets) or we could use a writing coach.  Do you think that a group like Lantern would be a good fit?   I figure this is a kid who won't want to do a lot of writing in his career--he is very gifted in visual-spatial ability. That said, my plan has always been to do some type of composition each year.  So it is hard to know what that will look like for this kid.   

ETA: He is okay for all the grammar elements of the program, or even reading something and filling out a chart or identifying elements of a news story, for example.  He can do all that without my presence or help.  It's just the composition part--the writing of essays, news articles, stories, etc. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by cintinative
clarity

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

I'm hoping @Lori D. doesn't mind me piggybacking on this question. I have a similar issue with my DS14 who is in 9th. He still needs me physically present and assisting for all writing assignments. He has very little confidence in his ability ... He is okay for all the grammar elements of the program, or even reading something and filling out a chart or identifying elements of a news story, for example.  He can do all that without my presence or help.  It's just the composition part--the writing of essays, news articles, stories, etc. 

That is so individual when each child "blooms" and takes off with writing. I have had 7th graders who were writing solidly at upper high school level, and I've had 11th/12th graders writing at a 6th grade level. It also totally throws a wrench into the "developmental timetable" when the child has some sort of LD or processing issue. I do usually have about 20-25% of my students coming in with some issues, and writing below grade level. (Thankfully, I also usually have about 15-20% writing very solidly or above high school level, and the rest fall in the range in between.)

At the risk of this NOT sounding encouraging 😉 -- I was still running alongside and tutoring (sitting at DS's side) for his writing throughout his first year at the community college. It finally clicked for him at about age 19... He has mild LDs (in spelling, writing, and math -- most likely stealth dyslexia), and always will struggle in those areas, but it finally "clicked" enough for him after that 2nd semester of his 1st year at college that he could move forward on his own with what writing he needed to do. BTW, he is VERY much a Visual-Spatial Learner, too. 😉 

[cintinative]

10 hours ago, Lori D. said:

That is so individual when each child "blooms" and takes off with writing. I have had 7th graders who were writing solidly at upper high school level, and I've had 11th/12th graders writing at a 6th grade level. It also totally throws a wrench into the "developmental timetable" when the child has some sort of LD or processing issue. I do usually have about 20-25% of my students coming in with some issues, and writing below grade level. (Thankfully, I also usually have about 15-20% writing very solidly or above high school level, and the rest fall in the range in between.)

At the risk of this NOT sounding encouraging 😉 -- I was still running alongside and tutoring (sitting at DS's side) for his writing throughout his first year at the community college. It finally clicked for him at about age 19... He has mild LDs (in spelling, writing, and math -- most likely stealth dyslexia), and always will struggle in those areas, but it finally "clicked" enough for him after that 2nd semester of his 1st year at college that he could move forward on his own with what writing he needed to do. BTW, he is VERY much a Visual-Spatial Learner, too. 😉 

Thank you! It does help to hear that. Sometimes I feel like I am helping too much with the words. Is there a good guideline for what proper coaching looks like?  

I looked up one of the programs for a college major that might be a good fit and they have only one composition class. YAY.  Verbally he does fine expressing himself, but that process of getting it from his head to the paper is the problem--the psychologist said this is the processing issue. 

[kiwik]

On 10/17/2021 at 12:47 AM, cintinative said:

Thank you! It does help to hear that. Sometimes I feel like I am helping too much with the words. Is there a good guideline for what proper coaching looks like?  

I looked up one of the programs for a college major that might be a good fit and they have only one composition class. YAY.  Verbally he does fine expressing himself, but that process of getting it from his head to the paper is the problem--the psychologist said this is the processing issue. 

I have the problem too.  But since he is only 12 I figure we can repeat it with less help.

[Arcadia]

On 10/16/2021 at 4:47 AM, cintinative said:

Verbally he does fine expressing himself, but that process of getting it from his head to the paper is the problem--the psychologist said this is the processing issue. 

Can he dictate to his laptop/computer/cellphone? Then write it out using the notes he dictated?

This is what I mean https://arc.duke.edu/i-write-my-voice-how-dictation-helps-me-handle-college-writing

“When I began to struggle with writing during the first few weeks of school, I decided to give these tools a try. The first time I tried dictation, I started to see how this tool could help me.

As a person with ADHD and dyslexia, I have difficulty with working memory and information processing. Dictation helped ease the strain of trying to remember sentences before writing them down. It also made it easier for me to put my thoughts into words.

I think that’s because dictation incorporates one of my biggest strengths—talking—into my writing process. I’m a very verbal person. I have a much easier time expressing my thoughts out loud instead of physically writing them down. Dictation allows me to talk out my ideas aloud.

The benefits of dictating my papers didn’t come right away, however. Learning to use your voice to organize a paper, as well as construct sentences and paragraphs, takes time. It was almost a semester before I was comfortable using the software, and refining my skills has been an ongoing process. I had to retrain myself to compose sentences verbally and say punctuation out loud.

This was my first time using dictation software. I went through my entire K–12 career without anyone mentioning it as an alternative way of writing. If I had known about dictation earlier, I would have asked my parents and my school to include it in my 504 plan.

Dictation isn’t perfect, however. If I don’t articulate words clearly, sometimes the software mistakes one word for another. For example, “present” and “president” sound alike, and dictation software sometimes confuses them. Spell-check won’t pick up this error because the word is spelled correctly, even though it makes no sense in context. Also, when I’m dictating quickly, I sometimes forget to add in punctuation, or mistakenly say the wrong command.

Today, I have about two years of dictation practice under my belt. Personally I find it more useful for writing rough drafts of papers than for editing and refining them. I end up keyboarding to polish and finish my papers, which still takes me a lot of time.”

[EmilyGF]

I think parents end up having to do a ton of the work when the school work is right at the edge of what the kid is capable of.

You could either scale back expectations or accept that this is what you have to do.

For us, I try to have one or two periods per day that are at the edge of what my kids can do and then lean in, working one-on-one with them, during those. Then I have a number per day that are in the Goldilocks zone: they are learning, but incrementally and can do most of the work on their own after an initial consult. I usually have a few assignments that are in the review zone: if they focus, they can get nearly 100% and do it quickly. If I see they frequently aren't getting 100%, though, I can quickly reteach the skill (esp in math).

FWIW, with my oldest, I at first zeroed in on his weak subjects for challenge subjects. I wanted him to be as good at them (writing!) as he was at his favorite subjects (math, piano). In retrospect, I regret that, because it meant we were spending the most time on the things he disliked. In middle school, I relaxed about writing and leaned in on his favorite subjects. I became more of a Mason schooler, which meant we focused on daily retelling narration and maybe 3x weekly varied narration (write a letter, write a newspaper article, make a list). I actually think this improved his writing the most because it caused him to read more closely, gave him complete control, and let him take ownership for his education. And, he was happier because he spent the most time on his beloved subjects. 

He's in a gifted public high school now and has straight As in everything, including writing-heavy social studies APs. And he still narrates frequently, he just doesn't realize it. 😉 It is useful to have a sink to wash dishes in next to a breakfast bar, to give a kid a snack, and say, "So, tell me what you're reading about right now."

Emily

[Farrar]

This is why I didn't farm out writing until later in senior year and I have zero regrets about that. Ds is a senior and he still brings me most of his writing assignments at the end - or occasionally midway - for some "teacher" support and suggestions. I generally do a copy edit alongside him and make a couple of suggestions. But in 9th grade, it would have been a disaster.

But this is also why I wouldn't personally choose WTMA. From everything I've seen and heard, the writing is very rigorous and not in a way that I think is always pushing growth for all students. Of course, no one way is right or wrong for all students. So I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying, it's a particular thing and it would not have helped encourage or support either of my kids at that age and they're both solid writers now.

[BusyMom5]

If it makes you feel any better, this is how my oldest DDs college English classes- all 3 of them- went.  For some reason she just needed more help with English.  I never helped with any other class,  just English.  She's a very smart kid- gifted even, but English papers just stress her out and she needs extra scaffolding.   Drove me bananas!!!! 

I think sometimes very bright kids have a hard time getting their brains to organize and focus information- like they know too much and cannot decide what stays and what goes.  

[cintinative]

41 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

 

I think sometimes very bright kids have a hard time getting their brains to organize and focus information- like they know too much and cannot decide what stays and what goes.  

My son's educational psychologist said this. He is gifted but he also has dyslexia driven processing issues so there is a sort of log jam in getting the information out of the brain and into the paper. 

[Noreen Claire]

On 10/20/2021 at 9:34 AM, BusyMom5 said:

 

I think sometimes very bright kids have a hard time getting their brains to organize and focus information- like they know too much and cannot decide what stays and what goes. 

This is my 9 year old when it comes to narration. He can't cull the unnecessary info in order to summarize a passage. 

[Noreen Claire]

So, I've accepted that I will be working with him just as much as when I was teaching him myself. Altering my expectations has made me much less cranky about his writing assignments. 🤪

However... If your kid was getting a ridiculously high grade in an online writing class, would you think the teacher was an easy grader? I don't want him going into the public high school in two years thinking he's all that....if he's not. And I guess I don't feel like I can adequately gauge his level of writing ability (and I'm second guessing the instructor's grading).

Edited October 29, 2021 by Noreen Claire
Clarity

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

On 10/29/2021 at 10:57 AM, Noreen Claire said:

If your kid was getting a ridiculously high grade in an online writing class, would you think the teacher was an easy grader? I don't want him going into the public high school in two years thinking he's all that....if he's not. And I guess I don't feel like I can adequately gauge his level of writing ability (and I'm second guessing the instructor's grading).

It seems likely to me that since your DS is receiving so much 1:1 assistance from you in regards to organizing, writing, & polishing his work, he would be likely to do quite well in the class. You can’t assume the other students are receiving that type of support & they may well be struggling, relatively speaking, in the same ways you would expect him to struggle without your assistance. 

[Noreen Claire]

14 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

It seems likely to me that since your DS is receiving so much 1:1 assistance from you in regards to organizing, writing, & polishing his work, he would be likely to do quite well in the class. You can’t assume the other students are receiving that type of support & they may well be struggling, relatively speaking, in the same ways you would expect him to struggle without your assistance. 

This is an excellent point. Thank you.