“Whole-to-parts” Latin: better for truly learning to read?

[GoodnightMoogle]

In a classical education Facebook group I’m in, the following article was posted:

https://ancientlanguage.com/classical-schools-not-classical/
 

“Classical Schools Are Not Really Classical”

It provides a scathing look into many of the popular methods of teaching Latin in the homeschool and private school worlds, and claims that these methods will, in most cases, not lead students to true reading fluency in Latin. That these methods will just kill the joy of learning the language and probably won’t lead to mastery.

I have long been back and forth on whether or not I even want to teach Latin to begin with. To be frank, however, if I were to teach it, I agree with the assertion of this article that the number one purpose of teaching Latin should be -wait for it - so your kid can learn to read Latin. Not for higher SAT scores, or for “training the mind to think.” Honestly, we have math for that. And English grammar. And heck, maybe Charlotte Mason and Aristotle didn’t do it but we do have *computer programming,* which not only trains the mind in logic but is also a great skill to have. So I’m not convinced by the argument that Latin somehow “orders the mind* in a way that other languages don’t. 
 

In the same Facebook post, it was shared that a Latin program called “Living Latin” is currently being piloted. It teaches young children Latin through songs, nursery rhymes, and getting them reading real sentences as quickly as possible rather than focusing on the grammar.

What are your thoughts on this? I know there are many veterans here who have successfully (or not) taught their children Latin, and I would love all your insight on the topic. 

 

 

 

[HomeAgain]

We went through a few different programs with youngest ds.  I always start Latin with the first book of Latin's Not So Tough.  It's just the alphabet/sounds, so it's a gentle introduction.  With this kid we moved straight from that to Getting Started With Latin, which is a word-a-day, reading sentences from the very beginning approach.  He loved it.  When we switched to FFL, he was on board, but the monotony of drills got to him.  LfC A was a bust.  It was poorly made and very hodge-podgy.  We had dabbled with Cambridge when FFL got to be too boring, and he LOVED it.  After LfC, we took a step back, made a list of characteristics that did work and a list of ones that didn't.  Cambridge was fine but slow.  FFL broke down the grammar very well.  He wanted to read, and he wanted grammar instruction, but not one at the expense of the other.

We ended up with Ecce Romani last school year and it was spot on.  Well paced, a long story in Latin to start every chapter.  Grammar instruction along with an expectation of reading and writing responses in Latin.  We're continuing this year because it is working so well for him.  It's just enough on all fronts.

I don't know what is best for all kids.  I know this particular child likes to go head first, and since Keep Going With Latin wasn't out when he finished GSWL, we had to pick something else.  I have no regrets for anything we tried because it helped narrow down what did work for him, and that was half orderly instruction and half translation/writing in the language.

[PeterPan]

15 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

In the same Facebook post, it was shared that a Latin program called “Living Latin” is currently being piloted. It teaches young children Latin through songs, nursery rhymes, and getting them reading real sentences as quickly as possible rather than focusing on the grammar.

Back when my dd was young, Minimus (a comic and story based immersion approach) was very popular. This is not new. Have you seen the Cambridge Latin texts? Again, something that gets them reading. 

Latin is a highly inflected, grammatically complex language, which is actually the snooty reason why people study it (because tackling something complex does good things for the brain). Oh they can say it's for vocabulary and all that jazz, but the complexity is why it's an accomplishment. And if you look at people who natively speak highly inflected languages (for instance russian), you will find that they do not rely on immersion to ensure their offspring speak it correctly but actually sit down and do exercises. We do this a little in english, but it's much more common in these other languages. You'll hear stories of people say their grandmas sat them down with grammar books to make sure they would have correct russian grammar, haha. 

15 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

So I’m not convinced by the argument that Latin somehow “orders the mind* in a way that other languages don’t. 

Hmm, that's an interesting assertion. I have a friend from my college days whose amazing homeschooling mother taught her latin and taught her WELL (all the way to reading and translating, etc.). Grappling with the nuances and complexities of language opened up a level of understanding that led her to be able to study any other language with ease (german, hebrew, greek, chinese). I know my study of russian did something similar, but I suspect her higher IQ and the higher complexity of latin did it even more so. 

15 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

so your kid can learn to read Latin.

This is not the end goal for all kids! To read and translate a highly inflected language requires memory, processing speed, and interest. My dd was quite bright but the *processing speed* required to do the work was exceptionally fatiguing. (She has ADHD, etc.) So rather than saying reading is the goal, it's probably better to find what *your* kids need from latin. If they have the facility to go all the way to reading and translating, fine! If they benefit from studying roots and need to stop there, fine. If they do an introductory program, like 2 years of Latina Christiana, and go wow that's enough for me, I've gotten the concepts, I'm done, FINE!

There are jump points for each person and we see what fits our kids. This is not a one size fits all thing and there is not ONE goal or ONE right way to do it. The elitist schools that make it *look* like everyone can are not including all kinds of kids. Kids get left behind, require tutors, can't do it. You're going to take what is good about latin for your kids and make it happen and leave what maybe was good for someone else's kid and wasn't for yours.

Does Muzzy have a latin? They have videos for early immersion based learning, so cute. 

15 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

What are your thoughts on this? I know there are many veterans here who have successfully (or not) taught their children Latin, and I would love all your insight on the topic. 

I've got a pile of latin stuff I can sell you. 😄 My dd could learn vocab and understand the grammar but with her processing speed disability could not pull it all together. That was her jump point. My ds has ASD and I'm doing root and morpheme work with him, nothing further. It's just not his fish to fry. But that is NOT because I'm an incompetent teacher. I studied multiple languages in college, took many classes in linguistics, advance grammar, and TESOL, and am perfectly competent to learn and teach languages. I can learn the languages with ease; I'm just realistic about my kids and what fits them.

Materials do not overcome the reality of your kids. The stuff you described seems like scare tactics and selling tactics to me. The program is probably cute, so try it if you like it! But it doesn't really matter. Your kids will be who they are and you will try things and learn along with them. You will learn how you learn, how they learn, what they can do, and where they intersect with latin and other languages. How old are your kids? Personally, I would not WASTE the prime language learning years of life on a dead language but would TAKE ADVANTAGE of their natural developmental ability to acquire languages and be getting a spoken language going. You can do latin later, lightly, on the side, just for fun. But if you actually want to teach a language when they're young and are going to put in effort, I would go spoken. Muzzy would be great.

I don't think she comes around anymore, but @Muttichen did the best I've ever seen done around here. She started all of them on Muzzy for a spoken european language in the early years and kept working it, so by the time they hit high school they could pass AP tests and get credit. That left them plenty of time to start another language (latin, whatever) later. 

So someone might try to scare you saying you need to teach a 4 yo latin nursery rhymes or you're doing it wrong, but that makes no sense developmentally. It DOESN'T MATTER. Try the program if you want or don't try it. You get to pick for your dc what the most valuable thing is they can do at this age.

[Doodlebug]

Forgive me.  I didn't follow the link, but I've heard the assertion before -- and not just wrt language. 

Generally, I'm a cynic where there are scathing opinions which set up the next great thing to sell you.  That isn't to say a program like it is entirely without merit -- but it's just a different approach.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.   

We've been studying Latin for three years with a tutor (I'm learning, too).  I become suspect of programs which suggest they've found the way and that the old forms are trite.  Latin is difficult.  It will require some heavy memorization, synopsis forms, etc especially in a language limited to the written word.  Where classical schools and homeschools may fail is in favoring these types of exercises without having Latin proficient teachers or time to do meaningful translation work.   The translations are the most fun!

I also think the drudgery component of learning Latin is largely developmental where we're asking kids to memorize latin endings at age 8.  Memorization detached from meaning is drudgery.  In Latin, translations are the object of memorization.  So, until a kid is equipped with adequate grammar and is developmentally capable of holding words and their function in mind as they parse -- which is most often in middle school -- it seems meaningless and thus the epitome of drudge to require memorization.         

Edited October 14, 2021 by Doodlebug

[bensonduck]

I think it depends on the kid. I have a whole to parts DD that is doing awesome with Athenaze for Greek. She needs to read and read and read the language to internalize the grammar. She actually goes back and reads the previous chapters’ stories when she’s confused about a grammar concept.

I also have a DS who is very parts to whole. He likes to understand the grammar concept completely before attempting to translate. He really is liking the Big Book of Lively Latin. It has concise explanations and enough practice where he feels successful. 

[kiwik]

I thought Cheryl Lowe made sense and tried FFL.  This was based on the fact that I struggle to learn other languages by speaking - I also don't pick up slang well which I think might be an ASD thing ds12 and I share.  It turns out we both hated FFL.  We are finding Cambridge Latin enjoyable though.  I am finding it easier than he is because my knowledge of English is greater 

 

They are twice the price of Lukeion or CLRC though so they would have to be pretty amazing.

Edited October 15, 2021 by kiwik

[GoodnightMoogle]

I feel like I should note that the person who wrote the article is not affiliated with the new curriculum and that the article itself wasn’t trying to sell anything. The person who made the Facebook post was posting it, I think, to justify the ideas behind Living Latin.

@PeterPan I always appreciate your responses and you’ve given me a lot to mull over. I love it when a response doesn’t neatly solve all my problems 😂 five years from now I’ll still be debating this in my head, I’m sure.

I think my main issue is, if reading proficiency isn’t achieved, and my son stops studying Latin, all those years of study would have been for almost nothing. I feel this way about my four years of high school Spanish education where I know some words and phrases but basically nothing was achieved because I wasn’t truly immersed in the language. 

I never knew people from highly inflected languages had to sit and work with their children on verbal grammar! Now that is super interesting. Man, there is so much I don’t know about language 🤯

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I love it when a response doesn’t neatly solve all my problems 😂 five years from now I’ll still be debating this in my head, I’m sure.

Then tell yourself now what you'd tell yourself 5 years from now. Do not listen to other people. Quiet yourself, put aside voices that make you worry, take a long walk or pray, then LOOK AT YOUR KIDS. You will know the answer. The answer does not come from a place of fear or worry. It comes from knowing that you know your kids, you love them, and that you will learn together and figure it out and that whatever happens is FINE.

Fear the right things, not the things that won't matter.

1 hour ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I think my main issue is, if reading proficiency isn’t achieved, and my son stops studying Latin, all those years of study would have been for almost nothing.

Then start a new thread and ASK about this!! There are lots of reasons to study a language and it's a totally valid question. Is there a way to study latin (or any language) for x length of time and have it be valuable? What would that look like? What are the other values of language study (cultural appreciate, cognate awareness, cultural reference awareness, basic facility for traveling in another country, appreciating music and common songs from other countries, etc. etc.) that go beyond reading and translating another language?

I have different levels of proficiency in different languages and ALL of them enriched my world or connected me to people and experiences. They make it easier to understand references in movies and literature. They're just plain pleasant and fun. 

1 hour ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I feel this way about my four years of high school Spanish education where I know some words and phrases but basically nothing was achieved because I wasn’t truly immersed in the language. 

I agree, having an experience you didn't feel was worth much and didn't benefit you would leave you questioning how to do better. So let's talk about that! Maybe back up and see what people who've done languages (with their kids, in college, whatever) think about jump points. Better yet, go on the high school board and ask.

Do you know how to board search? I meant to show you in one of your replies and forgot. To do a google site search, you go to your google bar and type in the terms and "site:welltrainedmind.com" So think about the fun you can have with this. You could try "high school learn language site:welltrainedmind.com". Do that and you'll get an AMAZING array of responses. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=high+school+learn+language+site%3Awelltrainedmind.com&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS898US900&oq=high+school+learn+language+site%3Awelltrainedmind.com&aqs=chrome..69i57.6999j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Then try 

https://www.google.com/search?q=muttichen+foreign+language+site%3Awelltrainedmind.com&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS898US900&oq=muttichen+foreign+language+site%3Awelltrainedmind.com&aqs=chrome..69i57.9239j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8  

In that link I used "muttichen foreign language site:welltrainedmind.com" You can have some fun with it! I used to spend Friday nights reading through board posts on math, spelling, etc. by different users who had kids like mine. I'd put in their user names and subjects and find tons. You can learn from the the people who have gone before and be inspired!

Do not act from fear. Look at your kids. For your high school thing, that's hard to say what happened. I started high school in a state and district that didn't even have textbooks, I kid you not. We transferred midyear and I had to go into a HIGHLY COMPETITIVE french class that most assuredly did have texts! LOL Then I went to a school that let us take anything we wanted, so I was taking more french and throwing in russian and german. The german was a college class that I didn't really have time for and the russian was at the high school but taught at college pace, kicking my butt. I learned how to learn that summer because I had failed to learn it during the school year and needed to catch up. 😄 

Meanwhile, that same school that was giving me access to russian, all kinds of advanced science and math classes, etc., literally had, once again, no french text! I gave up on that and went over to a university class.

Point is, qualifications of the teacher vary, student aptitude varies, materials availability varies. If it's taught as it should be in theory, the high school year of material would equal one semester of college. Even with 4 years of high school spanish proficiency could be pretty low. You *should* have been able to do some basic paragraph reading and writing by the end and they should have been working on conversation memory work, taking you to a restaurant to order meals, learning songs, learning about culture, and maybe beginning to watch movies or media (weather, news, etc.) in the language. I suspect most typically classes fizzle by that 4th year especially.

In other words it was probably more about your school and the fact that it was high school than about what CAN be. That's why i'm suggesting you read old board posts about what people have done successfully, to learn what *can* be done and see how it matches your kids. You are correct that this time, through age 8 or 10, is super facile in the brain for language learning. Have you googled how the brain learns a foreign language? It's fascinating stuff, with data about how kids learn, how they can literally sound like a native just with immersion if they begin before a certain age, etc. There are texts written to teach a language from a more whole to parts (the BJU spanish does this), but it's VERY hard to teach.

Then for fun, here's a "was latin worth it" search

https://www.google.com/search?q=latin+worth+it+site%3Awelltrainedmind.com&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS898US900&oq=latin+worth+it+site%3Awelltrainedmind.com&aqs=chrome..69i57.7919j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

14 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I wasn’t truly immersed in the language. 

It's kind of funny to think about *not* being immersed in spanish in this day and age. I can drive into the big city and get immersed in almost any language I want now, complete with meals and native speakers who will speak it with you. Back when I was in high school in that much more rural state, it was a once a year thing for the french classes to try to go to a french restaurant 2 hours away, very exotic. 😄 Now we just turn on dvds and stream stuff, lol.

Have you see the spanish soap opera lessons you can stream for free? Totally immersion, name slips my mind. What you want is out there if you ask. 

When I was very new with homeschooling I worried about getting it right and I listened to voices from books and boards. Took me a while to realize I had to look at my kids and that it didn't matter what worked for Debra Bell's kids or some other (totally fine) author's kids. I have to teach MY kids.

I think you'll know when you're doing it right, because their eyes will light up and they'll engage. 🙂 

Edited October 15, 2021 by PeterPan

[Doodlebug]

13 hours ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I feel like I should note that the person who wrote the article is not affiliated with the new curriculum and that the article itself wasn’t trying to sell anything. The person who made the Facebook post was posting it, I think, to justify the ideas behind Living Latin.

@PeterPan I always appreciate your responses and you’ve given me a lot to mull over. I love it when a response doesn’t neatly solve all my problems 😂 five years from now I’ll still be debating this in my head, I’m sure.

I think my main issue is, if reading proficiency isn’t achieved, and my son stops studying Latin, all those years of study would have been for almost nothing. I feel this way about my four years of high school Spanish education where I know some words and phrases but basically nothing was achieved because I wasn’t truly immersed in the language. 

I never knew people from highly inflected languages had to sit and work with their children on verbal grammar! Now that is super interesting. Man, there is so much I don’t know about language 🤯

I think @PeterPan has given excellent advice.  I would also add, if she did not say so explicitly, to think and clarify your objectives when it comes to language study.  Don't adopt someone else's goals.  Develop your own.  

Two consecutive years of language study are required for high school.   In most high school language programs, this familiarizes students with vocabulary and grammatical form, useful idioms/conversational phrases, and cultural elements/ history.  This is not going to produce fluid language proficiency for most students.  A handful of students will go on to study language more in depth, but YOUR goal for studying a language does not have to aim at general proficiency, especially if studying Latin.  

At the end of two years of high school Latin, DS will be translating select excerpts of Julius Caesar. This is not proficiency -- but it is a solid foundation which has already begun developing an appreciation of language as a transmitter of culture, history, and meaning.  Case in point -- contending with Latin causes our family to read the Bible differently.  Cultures are living in those words and it is a humbling to consider all we do not know.  But it is a launching point for other areas of study, and that is the nature and joy of learning. 

So, my objective is to diligently immerse DS in the deep end of a language and know he'll come up as a humbled and inspired human being.  Whether he can pick up Virgil or the like, or pass the Latin AP exam is not my goal.  It doesn't have to be yours, either! 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Doodlebug

[GoodnightMoogle]

@PeterPan thanks for reminding me how to board search! I used to do it that way all the time and then I didn’t do it for a while and forgot how to and the search function here is awful.

My high school Spanish education seemed to amount to briefly memorizing vocabulary lists and grammar endings for tests. There was so little speaking and listening, even in year four. It was dull, and even though I excelled in the class because I have a good memory for that sort of thing, it was a struggle for me to even say a single complex sentence aloud without writing it down first. I wish now we’d been made to memorize more wholesale phrases rather than just a lot of words.

I do remember in year 4 we read a novel and watched a cheesy soap opera. I think it was called “La Catrina.” That experience really helped my listening skills in a way that all the out of context vocabulary never did. 

I’m going to go thread diving down the ones you posted! Especially the one specifically about Latin. Ultimately, I’m going to choose to do what I think will be best for my son, but I like to be inspired by what others did, too. 

There are people who say there are no educational truths because every child is so different you have to teach to the individual, but I believe there must be some things that are almost universally true about learning. Those are the things I like to search for. I think the only things I’ve found that most can agree on about education is

1. Learning phonics is necessary for good reading (and even that is sometimes contested) and

2. Lots of time outdoors is important for kids.

That’s about it so far 😂 everything else seems to create debate. Traditional and conceptual math, history cycles, what age to teach science (and how). And now I’m looking at the way people teach foreign language . I keep thinking there must be some truths to what make a good language program. Those truths are what I hope to incorporate when I teach him a language (which might be Latin, or Spanish, or biblical Greek or Hebrew or maybe all of those)! 
 

I think the language we teach changes the way we teach it too. It probably isn’t as important that we learn conversational Biblical Hebrew in the same way we want to learn conversational Spanish. It’s just consistently Latin that throws me for a loop on what I want to do with it. 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by GoodnightMoogle

[Emily ZL]

That article made some very good points, but my biggest problem with that article was this particular sleight of hand near the end: 1) classical schools are not turning out fluent 8th graders from 5 hours per week instruction, 2) but that's plenty of time because my self-selected and self-motivated learners spend 5 hours on their own prepping for my 90 minute classes and make great strides quickly. Hmm...

[2_girls_mommy]

So I somewhat agree with the idea, but not completely.  I did both, but heavier on the parts to whole probably.  But it was a lot more fun when we included the poems, prayers, songs, and readings and games.  I used the Memoria Press which is heavy in parts to whole, but included the songs, prayers, mapwork, culture, etc. if you were doing it all.  The daily workbook pages are just memorize, decline, translate, etc.  But if you are following the whole program, you are including learning a song, a prayer, culture, maps, history alongside, which is what kept my students interested.  I taught Latin in co-ops for a good 7-8 years.  I found doing an hour of "Latin Club" on top of the grammar hour was the best way to do this.  In Latin club i used methods from teaching a modern language to make it more fun and usable.  LIke we learned vocabulary around a theme like nature or colors or family members or whatever and played games with that.  We sang songs in Latin like head, shoulder, knees, and toes to learn the parts of the body, things like that, "Mother May I?" to practice numbers (speaking only in Latin.) I used the syllabi from the Exploratory Latin Exams and the National Latin Exams including the extra subject on the ELEs which is a history topic each year in those hours.  This prepared my students for those exams better than just the heavy grammar programs of Memoria Press and were fun.   

[drjuliadc]

Wow, 2 girls mommy, that sounds like a great class.

[GoodnightMoogle]

@2_girls_mommythat sounds like such a rich learning experience; everything a foreign language class should be! 
 

My fickle centrist heart is satisfied now. Isn’t the answer almost always “balance is needed?” Haha