Psychology research? Kids with separated parents.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

Extreme abuse is exactly what you describe, but could be physical, s@xual, mental, etc.  I purposely left the definition ambiguous, because trying to define every abusive scenario is too much of a challenge.  Josh Duggar has been extremely abusive to Anna.  Dh and I adopted and are raising kids with fas and rad, and I absolutely agree that they have experienced extreme abuse.

My line is far earlier than hospitalization.  If DH put one of my kids in the hospital I'd do whatever was necessary to make sure he was in prison and wouldn't see the kids again. I'd start down that path the moment a doctor needed to be involved.

FAS & RAD is tough.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

Extreme abuse is exactly what you describe, but could be physical, s@xual, mental, etc.  I purposely left the definition ambiguous, because trying to define every abusive scenario is too much of a challenge.  Josh Duggar has been extremely abusive to Anna.  Dh and I adopted and are raising kids with fas and rad, and I absolutely agree that they have experienced extreme abuse.

By that standard you seem to think my son would have been happier and better off if I had stayed married to his father, since there was nothing that severe. Neglect but not abuse in that sense. I can assure you, no one who knew of that situation thinks that is the case. He would have had very little stability in his life, emotionally or financially, and a daily experience of a man who didn't have the emotional ability to care for himself, let alone a child. And he would have missed out on his step father's love and unwavering support. He has said himself he is glad we didn't stay married, because it is obvious his father and I were NOT compatible and it would never have been a healthy dynamic. It was a codependent situation from the start. We got married because I was pregnant. It was not a case of a good marriage gone bad, it was a case of a bad marriage that got worse. 

We did manage to coparent, mainly because his father never had the energy to complain or subvert me on stuff. The same lack of emotional stamina that plagued our marriage was a good thing for me after we divorced. Yes, I had to deal with him coming home from a weekend visit not having showered or brushed his teeth in days, not having eaten real food, etc...but it was a weekend here and there, not day in and day out. That same situation day in and day out would have been more worse. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by ktgrok

[Scarlett]

16 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

By that standard you seem to think my son would have been happier and better off if I had stayed married to his father, since there was nothing that severe. Neglect but not abuse in that sense. I can assure you, no one who knew of that situation thinks that is the case. He would have had very little stability in his life, emotionally or financially, and a daily experience of a man who didn't have the emotional ability to care for himself, let alone a child. And he would have missed out on his step father's love and unwavering support. He has said himself he is glad we didn't stay married, because it is obvious his father and I were NOT compatible and it would never have been a healthy dynamic. It was a codependent situation from the start. We got married because I was pregnant. It was not a case of a good marriage gone bad, it was a case of a bad marriage that got worse. 

We did manage to coparent, mainly because his father never had the energy to complain or subvert me on stuff. The same lack of emotional stamina that plagued our marriage was a good thing for me after we divorced. Yes, I had to deal with him coming home from a weekend visit not having showered or brushed his teeth in days, not having eaten real food, etc...but it was a weekend here and there, not day in and day out. That same situation day in and day out would have been more worse. 

There is a level of neglect that is abusive.  If a man can't/won't financially support his child and he can't won't take care of him while the mom works....then that is a situation she may need out of even if it is not really his fault.  

No one is saying you made the wrong choice.  I am just saying many people do not give it enough effort or time.  My DIL is currently divorcing my dss.  They have been married 18 months.  They lived together for a year before that.  There is not any accusation of abuse or addiction or adultery by her.  She is just not happy.  

[Rosie_0801]

And for everyone here saying they are glad their parents split, I get to sit here knowing that if I'd known how to stay with my covert narc, known how few rights my children and I had in practical terms, my son would still be alive and I'd still have custody of my daughter. (Who would be getting fed and educated properly, and not emotionally abused on a daily basis.)

As with most difficult decisions in life, there is an entire spectrum of experiences and you'll only know you've picked right with a decade or two of hindsight. I never imagined I would regret leaving abuse, but I do, now I'm old enough to know how I could have lived with it.

[Doodlebug]

As to whether divorce continues to impact later outcomes of children, I don't have any resources.  However, if childhood is where we learn about the world -- what we can hope for, what we can anticipate, etc -- I think it safe to say that children are vulnerable emotionally and psychologically and that it is wise to carefully evaluate the amount of stress/change we expect children to traverse in their primary relationships. 

I also think it's important to remember that parental separation is a trauma for a kid.  It's a trauma when the adults handle divorce beautifully.  And, it's still a trauma when abuse necessitates a divorce for all the right reasons.  

In my experience, as a child of divorced parents, the best way I can describe its impact is trauma layering upon trauma.  My trauma, mom's trauma, my sister's trauma, dad's trauma -- and then, my stepmom's trauma, stepdad's trauma, stepsisters, half brother, etc.  Ongoing trauma doesn't stop after the divorce.  This was harder than the physical separation, but altogether, the divorce significantly ate away at all the fundamental resources I had grown to expect as a child -- parental time, energy, emotional availability, and financial resources (goodbye private school and ballet lessons).  Asking for too much was constantly a concern of mine (not for my sister, though) and this does impact how we engage with the world.

To sum up, OP, I'm sorry your friend is going through this.  What an awful position to be in --a trauma in itself!  I hope she has a counselor to speak to as she processes the infidelity.  I don't truly know what I would do in her position, but with the counterweight of my childhood experience, I know I would be weighing my personal trauma against that of my children in a divorce as I considered the options.    

Edited October 11, 2021 by Doodlebug

[TarynB]

16 minutes ago, Doodlebug said:

As to whether divorce continues to impact later outcomes of children, I don't have any resources.  However, if childhood is where we learn about the world -- what we can hope for, what we can anticipate, etc -- I think it safe to say that children are vulnerable emotionally and psychologically and that it is wise to carefully evaluate the amount of stress/change we expect children to traverse in their primary relationships. 

I also think it's important to remember that parental separation is a trauma for a kid.  It's a trauma when the adults handle divorce beautifully.  And, it's still a trauma when abuse necessitates a divorce for all the right reasons.  

In my experience, as a child of divorced parents, the best way I can describe its impact is trauma layering upon trauma.  My trauma, mom's trauma, my sister's trauma, dad's trauma -- and then, my stepmom's trauma, stepdad's trauma, stepsisters, half brother, etc.  Ongoing trauma doesn't stop after the divorce.  This was harder than the physical separation, which wasn't a walk in the park -- divorce significantly ate away the fundamental resources I had -- parental time, energy, and financial resources.  

To sum up, OP, I'm sorry your friend is going through this.  What an awful position to be in --a trauma in itself!  I hope she has someone she speak to as she processes the infidelity.  I don't truly know what I would do in her position, but I with the counterweight of my childhood experience, I know I would be weighing my personal trauma against that of my children in a divorce as I considered the options.    

Agree 100%. My parents divorced too, when I was about 7 years old. Actually, the way I look at it is that my family, even my extended family, got divorced, not just my parents. Mom and dad made that decision but it didn't just affect them.

The time leading up to and the time of the actual divorce was hard, but the years after that were much more traumatic. The impact of those years will never go away. For all of us involved. When children are involved, divorce is not ever an ending, it is merely the start of a new phase. Things didn't start to get better for me until I was in my late 20s and distanced myself. I'm almost 50 now (and married young and have had plenty of my own marital ups and downs) and I still wish my parents had worked on it and stayed together. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by TarynB

[Katy]

23 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

And for everyone here saying they are glad their parents split, I get to sit here knowing that if I'd known how to stay with my covert narc, known how few rights my children and I had in practical terms, my son would still be alive and I'd still have custody of my daughter. (Who would be getting fed and educated properly, and not emotionally abused on a daily basis.)

As with most difficult decisions in life, there is an entire spectrum of experiences and you'll only know you've picked right with a decade or two of hindsight. I never imagined I would regret leaving abuse, but I do, now I'm old enough to know how I could have lived with it.

Wow Rosie, I don’t think I knew that you had a son.  I’m so sorry. 

[Scarlett]

24 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

And for everyone here saying they are glad their parents split, I get to sit here knowing that if I'd known how to stay with my covert narc, known how few rights my children and I had in practical terms, my son would still be alive and I'd still have custody of my daughter. (Who would be getting fed and educated properly, and not emotionally abused on a daily basis.)

As with most difficult decisions in life, there is an entire spectrum of experiences and you'll only know you've picked right with a decade or two of hindsight. I never imagined I would regret leaving abuse, but I do, now I'm old enough to know how I could have lived with it.

((((Rosie))))

[Melissa Louise]

35 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

And for everyone here saying they are glad their parents split, I get to sit here knowing that if I'd known how to stay with my covert narc, known how few rights my children and I had in practical terms, my son would still be alive and I'd still have custody of my daughter. (Who would be getting fed and educated properly, and not emotionally abused on a daily basis.)

As with most difficult decisions in life, there is an entire spectrum of experiences and you'll only know you've picked right with a decade or two of hindsight. I never imagined I would regret leaving abuse, but I do, now I'm old enough to know how I could have lived with it.

So many hugs. 

Yes.

Rock and a hard place. 

Nobody can know the complex risk assessments women do in regard to their marriage. 

[Kassia]

((( @Rosie_0801 )))  I'm so sorry.  

[MercyA]

I am so sorry, @Rosie_0801. 

[Rosie_0801]

Thank you, but that's not why I posted. 
 

🥴

[Indigo Blue]

So many hugs, @Rosie_0801. 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

And for everyone here saying they are glad their parents split, I get to sit here knowing that if I'd known how to stay with my covert narc, known how few rights my children and I had in practical terms, my son would still be alive and I'd still have custody of my daughter. (Who would be getting fed and educated properly, and not emotionally abused on a daily basis.)

As with most difficult decisions in life, there is an entire spectrum of experiences and you'll only know you've picked right with a decade or two of hindsight. I never imagined I would regret leaving abuse, but I do, now I'm old enough to know how I could have lived with it.

I'm so sorry. There definitely is no one size fits all answer. 

2 hours ago, Doodlebug said:

my experience, as a child of divorced parents, the best way I can describe its impact is trauma layering upon trauma.  My trauma, mom's trauma, my sister's trauma, dad's trauma -- and then, my stepmom's trauma, stepdad's trauma, stepsisters, half brother, etc.  Ongoing trauma doesn't stop after the divorce.  This was harder than the physical separation, but altogether, the divorce significantly ate away at all the fundamental resources I had grown to expect as a child -- parental time, energy, emotional availability, and financial resources (goodbye private school and ballet lessons).  Asking for too much was constantly a concern of mine (not for my sister, though) and this does impact how we engage with the world.

 

Very true. One reason I was able to leave my ex was that I had the ability to move in with my parents. I'd been in counseling for 2 yrs at that point, off and on, and toward the end that was focused on how to best support my son through the process. Providing attention and stability were the biggest parts of that. I was VERY lucky to have the option to move in with two very healthy, loving family members. My son went from being ignored by his dad all day to always having an adult around who cared about him, interacted with him, put him first, etc. So although it was definitely a trauma, he had MORE attention, love, support, and financial resources afterward than he did before. I know that often is not how things work out. And I had the benefit of a very good counselor to guide me in parenting through this. 

[Harriet Vane]

(((Rosie)))

[Doodlebug]

@ktgrok My grandparents filled in that gap, too. There are so many ways I am still just coming into an understanding of how much their care truly saved me.  So thankful for awesome grandparents!

[sassenach]

Divorce is on the list of Adverse Childhood Events (ACEs), which is evidence-based, so I believe that there’s definitely research that supports divorce being harmful in itself. In the end though, the kids can’t be the only reason to stay in the marriage. That’s a recipe for resentment. 

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I'm old enough to know how I could have lived with it.

It's something I've learned over the years, to listen to women who've learned how to live with very hard men. Any tips/hindsight to share?

[Rosie_0801]

44 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

It's something I've learned over the years, to listen to women who've learned how to live with very hard men. Any tips/hindsight to share?

Appearances are very important. 

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Appearances are very important. 

Truth

I'm so sorry for your losses btw. I think about them often with my ds, because it can happen.

Edited October 12, 2021 by PeterPan

[Murphy101]

20 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

And for everyone here saying they are glad their parents split, I get to sit here knowing that if I'd known how to stay with my covert narc, known how few rights my children and I had in practical terms, my son would still be alive and I'd still have custody of my daughter. (Who would be getting fed and educated properly, and not emotionally abused on a daily basis.)

As with most difficult decisions in life, there is an entire spectrum of experiences and you'll only know you've picked right with a decade or two of hindsight. I never imagined I would regret leaving abuse, but I do, now I'm old enough to know how I could have lived with it.

I just want to say - I don’t think you made the wrong choice. I think your x did and you and your kids have suffered for your ex’s choices.  Playing what if is a hard brutal form of self abuse you don’t deserve.

It is a cautionary tale though that women need to hear and work to prevent happening to others.  We all think it couldn’t happen to us. But there’s zero reason it couldn’t be me or my daughters some day.  

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I just want to say - I don’t think you made the wrong choice. I think your x did and you and your kids have suffered for your ex’s choices.  Playing what if is a hard brutal form of self abuse you don’t deserve.

It is a cautionary tale though that women need to hear and work to prevent happening to others.  We all think it couldn’t happen to us. But there’s zero reason it couldn’t be me or my daughters some day.  

QFT.  I bet we all need to remind ourselves of this from time to time.