I need some help with handling my dad

[DawnM]

My dad is a very kind man.   He is also stubborn.   He has his ways and they are what they are and he won't bend on a lot of things.

PT has been coming to the home twice a week since his fall, but they are stopping as of next week.    Yesterday one of the PT people came to my husband and said that they think we need to clean his bathroom as they smell urine in there.   I am sure my dad is just missing the toilet and I am going to go get some wet swiffer stuff this weekend so we can clean weekly.  

But I think honestly that the smell is also in his recliner and his office chair.   Both chairs are OLD and I think they are yucky, but they are his favorites and he moved them from AZ to NC because he loved them so much.

He also won't change his pants for like 14 days.  He changes his shirt and his underwear but says his pants are fine to wear again and again.   

So, questions......

1. Will a fabreeze help with the odor in the chairs or is there something else I can use?   The office chair is leather but it is OLD and the recliner is fabric.   I don't think we will have the opportunity to do a deep clean that will make the chair wet for more than a few hours.

2. How do I get him to change his pants?   I just don't get it.   I have brought it up and he just laughs and says, "Oh, my pants are fine.   I can wear the same pants for days and days and they aren't dirty."   When I say they ARE indeed dirty, he says, "they are fine" and just keeps wearing them.   My husband goes down at night to help him put his eye drops in, I may ask him to sneak them up to wash, but I did that one time and my dad got upset and said, "Dawn stole my pants!" 😂

ALL of his stuff is old.....his clothes are old.   I tried buying him new pants and they just sit in the packaging and he won't even try them on.   His shoes are worn out, his pants are worn thin, his undershirts have holes.....but they are comfortable and he won't change his ways.

 

[WildflowerMom]

'Kids 'N Pets' spray may help with odor in the chairs.    I have it and it works, but I haven't used it on old stuff.   
 

Regarding his hygiene habits...   obviously I don't know him so this may not work, but I'm kind of blunt and I'd just tell him he smells.   If he argues, I'd probably be even more blunt.   Ymmv though... 

[DawnM]

17 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

'Kids 'N Pets' spray may help with odor in the chairs.    I have it and it works, but I haven't used it on old stuff.   
 

Regarding his hygiene habits...   obviously I don't know him so this may not work, but I'm kind of blunt and I'd just tell him he smells.   If he argues, I'd probably be even more blunt.   Ymmv though... 

He doesn't smell, which is weird.....but he does get stains on his pants from eating, etc.....he doesn't see them anymore.

This is SO not my dad.....

[itsheresomewhere]

Biokleen has a fabric spray that is excellent and works well on urine/vomit.
 

Any chance he might go for a day you set as pants changing and washing day. For example-  everyone on Monday’s I am washing all the pants. So dad, please have your dirty pants ready to be washed.  This did work for my friend.  

[mlktwins]

From my experience with my dad, at least your dad is wearing pants and underwear!!!  My dad doesn’t have a choice during the day anymore as he has 24/7 caregiving at his apartment now and I put my foot down that it wasn’t optional during the waking hours.  He gave his night caregivers such a hassle about wearing something to bed that I gave up on that battle.  I will spare you the details of how gross that is (re: his chairs)!!!

After 3 years now of my dad having to have things his way (even if it wasn’t a good way), I just do what needs to be done now.  So…for me, the pants would disappear (I would wash them and put them away somewhere) and the new pants would be the only option.  Those would be washed at least every other day.  Is your dad wearing Depends type things or should he be? 

We are getting ready to fight the battle of replacing his beloved chair and ottoman, that he can barely get out of because it is like sitting in the driver’s seat of a fancy sports car, to a new power recliner that will be much easier for him to get out of without the power function, but will have that power function when needed.  He said no, but it is happening anyway.  

I love him and will continue to care for him, but I am no longer tiptoeing around him anymore.  It just is what it is.  And…since his short term memory isn’t good at all anymore, we seem to have the same conversations all the time and nothing changes.  I know the dad I used to know is somewhere in there, but aging, cognitive decline, and memory loss changes a person.

I’m sorry - it’s hard taking on care of an elderly parent.  I lost my mom in 2001 at 62, but I think she would have been the easier parent to care for in old age.

ETA:  Is he cleaning his own bathroom?  I cleaned my dad’s place for about 2 months when we moved him into an apartment before I finally hired a cleaning service to come in every 2 weeks.  When Covid hit, I cancelled them and went back to doing it myself.  He refuses to sit to pee (I wanted him to also for fall risks issues), he says he isn’t a girl, so I was cleaning urine off the floor, back wall, shower door, etc.  It was stinky.  The caregivers are now with him when he goes to the bathroom and they clean the bathroom.  Hopefully it is going better for them than it did for me.

Edited October 7, 2021 by mlktwins

[Katy]

Enzyme cleaner breaks down urine. The one I use has a strong perfume too.  I am going to try biokleen next because I saw there’s an unscented version on Amazon. 

I’m not sure a swiffer will clean a bathroom floor well enough.  I use a steam mop for bathrooms, after letting an enzyme cleaner sit on urine spills first.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Katy
Why did I substitute vacuum for bathroom? I need caffeine!

[gardenmom5]

Try "Nature's Miracle".  It's made for pets, but would probably work for people too.

[mlktwins]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

I’m not sure a swiffer will clean a bathroom floor well enough.  I use a steam mop for bathrooms, after letting an enzyme cleaner sit on urine spills first.

I used a dry swiffer, than a wet swiffer, and finally a steam mop for my dad's bathroom. 

[bolt.]

I think "stealing" his pants to wash them on a reasonable schedule, while it might upset him, is something he would get used to over time.

To me "mlktwins" has a good approach: when things just need to be done, you just do them. Respecting his wishes is important, but so is respect for his actual needs -- whether they are hidden or obvious -- and so is finding ways to share the living space well (ie not having a part of your house that smells of urine). Seeking solutions that respect all three of those thing, however much it is possible to do so, can become a good guiding principle for when/how you are willing to step on his toes.

(Remembering that being willing to step on his toes also includes being willing to listen patiently when he has something to say about that. When we choose the action, we choose the consequences. Don't resent that when he needs to express himself over a change that he doesn't like. It's just a fact of life.)

Edited October 7, 2021 by bolt.

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

I think "stealing" his pants to wash them on a reasonable schedule, while it might upset him, is something he would get used to over time.

To me "mlktwins" has a good approach: when things just need to be done, you just do them. Respecting his wishes is important, but so is respect for his actual needs -- whether they are hidden or obvious -- and so is finding ways to share the living space well (ie not having a part of your house that smells of urine). Seeking solutions that respect all three of those thing, however much it is possible to do so, can become a good guiding principle for when/how you are willing to step on his toes.

(Remembering that being willing to step on his toes also includes being willing to listen patiently when he has something to say about that. When we choose the action, we choose the consequences. Don't resent that when he needs to express himself over a change that he doesn't like. It's just a fact of life.)

I have expressed and he has expressed......so if I have already stepped on his toes and he has already voiced his rejection of that, where do you suggest we go?

 

What I am hearing in your response is, "step on his toes and let him step on yours back" which kind of gets us nowhere.

[mlktwins]

For me, given I am kind of in your same situation, but been doing it a little bit longer, you know what is best for him at this point.  He really may not fully understand what the problem is.

I think you need to just start doing what you know is best for him - you've already talked about it.  I don't mean to be a downer, but things probably aren't going to improve at this point.  And...usually once they start falling, that continues until it gets more dire.

I would just tell him you love him and need to do what is best for him and that you are sorry.  You are just looking out for him.  And do what you need to do.  Tell him what the PT said and that he wouldn't want his place or himself to be dirty or smelling of urine.  

I totally get it!  I really do!  

Edited October 7, 2021 by mlktwins

[Danae]

4 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I have expressed and he has expressed......so if I have already stepped on his toes and he has already voiced his rejection of that, where do you suggest we go?

 

What I am hearing in your response is, "step on his toes and let him step on yours back" which kind of gets us nowhere.

What I hear in her response is not “you express and then he expresses” but “you do the thing that needs doing and then let him express his displeasure.”  So take his dirty pants and wash them, and then listen patiently to him vent about you stealing his pants.

[mlktwins]

6 minutes ago, Danae said:

What I hear in her response is not “you express and then he expresses” but “you do the thing that needs doing and then let him express his displeasure.”  So take his dirty pants and wash them, and then listen patiently to him vent about you stealing his pants.

Yes!

There is a saying - Once an adult, twice a child.  You are at the 2nd child phase.  It is a really hard place to be sometimes.  

[prairiewindmomma]

When we have bumped into this it has generally been either a control issue (wanting to control something in their lives—much like a toddler—it can be irrational), a loss of time issue, or a loss of smell issue.

I would remove the clothing at night and wash it when he is asleep if you are wanting to avoid confrontation.

This isn’t going to improve any, especially as he loses continence. I know I suggested that the tile grout be sealed in the bathroom, but if that wasn’t done, you REALLY want to do that ASAP. Also, you are going to need enzymatic cleaners. The products you mention are highly fragranced but not strong enough to break down the proteins in urine.

 

[PeterPan]

You’re seeing a pile of dirty underwear to know he’s changing them?

I would buy as close as you can to exactly what he wears, wash 3-4 times to soften , and replace overnight.

I would then make up something about the law and social services. I would also tell him directly that if he does not comply he leaves. 
 

I’m very straight with my dad. If he wants to live at x place, this is what it takes. If he doesn’t like it or comply, this is what the next step looks like. 
 

My dad had a stage of inadequate hygiene and I told him it was communicating to his workers tgat he didn’t appreciate them. It sounds like your dad may benefit from more assistance, possibly dressing. There’s a tier that is at hand, not actually doing it. Prevents falls and keeps up hygiene. He is doing what he finds easiest. 
 

You also have the option of meds for mood. If he’s struggling tgat much, maybe it’s time.

[prairiewindmomma]

Have you read The 36 Hour Day, Dawn? You might add it to your reading pile as preparation.

[bolt.]

52 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I have expressed and he has expressed......so if I have already stepped on his toes and he has already voiced his rejection of that, where do you suggest we go?

 

What I am hearing in your response is, "step on his toes and let him step on yours back" which kind of gets us nowhere.

When you "step on his toes" I mean you actually do the things. Take the pants. Wash the pants. Do what he needs whether he agrees or not. There's not much to "express" since you already know that it isn't what he wants.

When he "steps on your toes" he's only an old man in clean pants that needs someone to listen to him complain about how that happened. Smile and nod.

Yes, it's a repetitive cycle: but its a cycle of providing what he needs followed by listening to him talk. It's not a cycle that goes nowhere, it's a cycle that meets his care needs. That makes it a productive routine.

Eventually he will get used to his pants disappearing and returning according to your schedule instead of his own.

Edited October 7, 2021 by bolt.

[mlktwins]

39 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I’m very straight with my dad. If he wants to live at x place, this is what it takes. If he doesn’t like it or comply, this is what the next step looks like. 
 

My dad had a stage of inadequate hygiene and I told him it was communicating to his workers tgat he didn’t appreciate them. It sounds like your dad may benefit from more assistance, possibly dressing. There’s a tier that is at hand, not actually doing it. Prevents falls and keeps up hygiene. He is doing what he finds easiest. 
 

@PeterPan I am very straight with my dad now too - especially since his last fall at the end of July. His choices really are having caregivers in there for now (probably always) or a nursing home.  Assisted living would be too expensive as we would still need to pay for some personal care to come in.  It really just is what it is.  He is not driving the bus anymore and I know he doesn't like it.   I don't really like being in this situation either.  Just like when you bring a baby home from the hospital without a manual on how to raise them, same thing here.  No manual.  And...it is not something you can really understand until you are all of a sudden responsible for this other person.  

At the moment, my priority it to keep him well and safe until we can get his cataract surgeries done  - end of October and early November.  I think his quality of life will improve once he can see better.  Then it will be onto the next thing.  One battle at a time!

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by mlktwins
correcting my typing (I am multi-tasking LOL)

[kristin0713]

8 hours ago, DawnM said:

My husband goes down at night to help him put his eye drops in, I may ask him to sneak them up to wash, but I did that one time and my dad got upset and said, "Dawn stole my pants!" 😂

I would take the pants and wash them but have them back the next morning. 

 

8 hours ago, DawnM said:

I don't think we will have the opportunity to do a deep clean that will make the chair wet for more than a few hours.

If it were me, there would be two options:

1) new furniture

or

2) do the deep clean and he has to wait for it to dry

If it needs to be cleaned, it needs to be cleaned, or it needs to go. I would do the deep clean because it would only be distressing to him until it’s dry, whereas getting rid of it might cause him to hold a long grudge. 

[Laura Corin]

9 hours ago, DawnM said:

My dad is a very kind man.   He is also stubborn.   He has his ways and they are what they are and he won't bend on a lot of things.

PT has been coming to the home twice a week since his fall, but they are stopping as of next week.    Yesterday one of the PT people came to my husband and said that they think we need to clean his bathroom as they smell urine in there.   I am sure my dad is just missing the toilet and I am going to go get some wet swiffer stuff this weekend so we can clean weekly.  

But I think honestly that the smell is also in his recliner and his office chair.   Both chairs are OLD and I think they are yucky, but they are his favorites and he moved them from AZ to NC because he loved them so much.

He also won't change his pants for like 14 days.  He changes his shirt and his underwear but says his pants are fine to wear again and again.   

So, questions......

1. Will a fabreeze help with the odor in the chairs or is there something else I can use?   The office chair is leather but it is OLD and the recliner is fabric.   I don't think we will have the opportunity to do a deep clean that will make the chair wet for more than a few hours.

2. How do I get him to change his pants?   I just don't get it.   I have brought it up and he just laughs and says, "Oh, my pants are fine.   I can wear the same pants for days and days and they aren't dirty."   When I say they ARE indeed dirty, he says, "they are fine" and just keeps wearing them.   My husband goes down at night to help him put his eye drops in, I may ask him to sneak them up to wash, but I did that one time and my dad got upset and said, "Dawn stole my pants!" 😂

ALL of his stuff is old.....his clothes are old.   I tried buying him new pants and they just sit in the packaging and he won't even try them on.   His shoes are worn out, his pants are worn thin, his undershirts have holes.....but they are comfortable and he won't change his ways.

 

It's really hard.  My mother was unpersuadable until she moved into a care home.  When the staff asked her to do things she would, but she had resented it when I had asked her the same things when she lived with me.

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

You’re seeing a pile of dirty underwear to know he’s changing them?

I would buy as close as you can to exactly what he wears, wash 3-4 times to soften , and replace overnight.

I would then make up something about the law and social services. I would also tell him directly that if he does not comply he leaves. 
 

I’m very straight with my dad. If he wants to live at x place, this is what it takes. If he doesn’t like it or comply, this is what the next step looks like. 
 

My dad had a stage of inadequate hygiene and I told him it was communicating to his workers tgat he didn’t appreciate them. It sounds like your dad may benefit from more assistance, possibly dressing. There’s a tier that is at hand, not actually doing it. Prevents falls and keeps up hygiene. He is doing what he finds easiest. 
 

You also have the option of meds for mood. If he’s struggling tgat much, maybe it’s time.

Yes, he has a pile of 7 underwear, 7 undershirts, and 7 shirts in his pile.   He only has one pr of pants about once every other week.

He is not mean or rude, he just says, "No, I'm good."   I tell him it is not ok and he chuckles and tells me he has done it this way for years and he has been fine, so he will just do it the same way.

He has always been a very gentle soul but with a few things that he gets adamant about.   

 

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Have you read The 36 Hour Day, Dawn? You might add it to your reading pile as preparation.

 No......sigh, do I even want to?

[ktgrok]

56 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Yes, he has a pile of 7 underwear, 7 undershirts, and 7 shirts in his pile.   He only has one pr of pants about once every other week.

 

Does he own more than one pair? Do they look alike? Can you switch out the pair he takes off for a clean pair, then wash the dirty pair? If you put a pair from the dresser where he left the dirty ones, will he just assume those are the ones he took off? 

[Annie G]

When we have tried other ways to get my dad to cooperate, we sometimes use the ‘mom would want you to do this’ line. So maybe you could say you’re doing laundry the way your mom used to do it/would want it done, and maybe reach him that way? It doesn’t always work with our dad, but it sometimes does. Often enough that we regularly try it. 

[prairiewindmomma]

3 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

 

 No......sigh, do I even want to?

I think there are aspects you will find helpful now even though you are early in the journey.  I think you may recognize patterns of behaviors in your father in what you read. More importantly, the intro alone really helps with empathy on the days you need to draw upon that within you to find patience. 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

It's really hard.  My mother was unpersuadable until she moved into a care home.  When the staff asked her to do things she would, but she had resented it when I had asked her the same things when she lived with me.

I am guessing this is really common. 

My grandmother, who is doing really well, is much more likely to give her kids a problem than her grandkids. 

[HS Mom in NC]

With Grandmother, Mom just took the clothes when Grandmother went to sleep, washed them, dried them, and returned them before she woke up.  Does your father sleep in the pants all night long? If he doesn't, you have however many hours he sleeps to get them laundered and returned. My washer has a quick wash cycle that I use most of the time anyway, and would use in this kind of situation.  

Here's the thing.  You're now in a stage of life where the elder dependents act like a children.  It's not their fault, it's just how it is.  That means you need to make the mental shift to no longer needing their approval from them for everything you do because you're going to get less and less of it from here on out. I'd just need to do what needs doing and that will mean taking heat for it because they're unable to think clearly anymore. If I decided that the chair and clothes are old and stinky and worn beyond my standards, I'd get rid of them and  replace them knowing I'd get yelled at for it, but eventually they'd get over it...or not- their choice. It's my job to care for them and care means a clean, safe, pleasant environment.  Peed on chairs, peed on floors, and dirty pants aren't high quality care in my book. I'd practice saying something canned in a pleasant tone of voice like, "I'm sorry you don't like my decisions, but I'm responsible to keep you clean, safe, and well."

[fairfarmhand]

54 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

With Grandmother, Mom just took the clothes when Grandmother went to sleep, washed them, dried them, and returned them before she woke up.  Does your father sleep in the pants all night long? If he doesn't, you have however many hours he sleeps to get them laundered and returned. My washer has a quick wash cycle that I use most of the time anyway, and would use in this kind of situation.  

Here's the thing.  You're now in a stage of life where the elder dependents act like a children.  It's not their fault, it's just how it is.  That means you need to make the mental shift to no longer needing their approval from them for everything you do because you're going to get less and less of it from here on out. I'd just need to do what needs doing and that will mean taking heat for it because they're unable to think clearly anymore. If I decided that the chair and clothes are old and stinky and worn beyond my standards, I'd get rid of them and  replace them knowing I'd get yelled at for it, but eventually they'd get over it...or not- their choice. It's my job to care for them and care means a clean, safe, pleasant environment.  Peed on chairs, peed on floors, and dirty pants aren't high quality care in my book. I'd practice saying something canned in a pleasant tone of voice like, "I'm sorry you don't like my decisions, but I'm responsible to keep you clean, safe, and well."

Yeah, if you’d raise a fuss about a nursing home tolerating that level of yuck, you may just need to do what needs to be done. Probably once he gets used to you matter of factly doing his clothes and all, he may get tired of grumping about it. 
 

thing is, the fussing is working for him right now, so….

[matrips]

Maybe at least get some chair pads- they make disposable ones and washable ones (they’re like a thick quilted material on one side, waterproof on the other).  CVS type places should have them.

[TechWife]

Dawn - others have given you some good ideas. The one thing that caught my eye that no one has mentioned is that you said he drops food when he eats and doesn’t see stains on his pants. Has he been to the eye doctor lately? Both of those are things that happened when my dad was loosing his vision. A good checkup with an ophthalmologist (an MD) might be in order. Vision problems aren’t uncommon with older people & there are several serious eye diseases that can come up at his age. 

[Lanny]

@DawnMPossible idea about the pants. Can you ask your Dad if there is something about those pants that he likes, other than the fact that they are old and comfortable?   For example, if they are made of a Material that he likes and/or are cut in a way he likes?   If so, possibly you can have someone make 1 or 2 pairs of new pants, with the same kind of Material and cut the same way. Possibly he would wear those if you can have them made locally?

Some years ago, my DW was in a store in downtown Cali where they sell real Levis and name brand shirts. (Not counterfeit).   I wasn't with her so I could not try them on. One pair of Jeans she bought for me are made of a thick (that's not the word) material.  Hot and heavy. I rarely wear those.  When we were in a superstore, I tried on a bunch of Jeans and the ones I liked the best are made of a lightweight material and cut the way I like them. I wear them a lot.  They were very inexpensive. I bought 3 pairs. Not a name brand but I like them. 

The other issues he has I fear are going to get worse and that you are going to need more help (people to help him constantly) and that he may not be able to continue living in your home much longer, as you and he would like.

I'm including your Dad and your entire family in my prayers to God.

[DawnM]

3 hours ago, Lanny said:

@DawnMPossible idea about the pants. Can you ask your Dad if there is something about those pants that he likes, other than the fact that they are old and comfortable?   For example, if they are made of a Material that he likes and/or are cut in a way he likes?   If so, possibly you can have someone make 1 or 2 pairs of new pants, with the same kind of Material and cut the same way. Possibly he would wear those if you can have them made locally?

Some years ago, my DW was in a store in downtown Cali where they sell real Levis and name brand shirts. (Not counterfeit).   I wasn't with her so I could not try them on. One pair of Jeans she bought for me are made of a thick (that's not the word) material.  Hot and heavy. I rarely wear those.  When we were in a superstore, I tried on a bunch of Jeans and the ones I liked the best are made of a lightweight material and cut the way I like them. I wear them a lot.  They were very inexpensive. I bought 3 pairs. Not a name brand but I like them. 

The other issues he has I fear are going to get worse and that you are going to need more help (people to help him constantly) and that he may not be able to continue living in your home much longer, as you and he would like.

I'm including your Dad and your entire family in my prayers to God.

Has like 5 pairs of pants.   He wears them on a rotation.   So, one pr. for 2 weeks, then the next pr for 2 weeks, then the next.   It is more about him thinking they dont' need to be changed.

 

Thank you,

 

Dawn