ASU Universal Learner (the new branded version of Earned Admission)

[mlktwins]

Here is the link https://ea.asu.edu/

@Farrar kindly posted about this in another thread here.

Would this be an advantage over AP, but less than DE?  Grades, if you choose to use them, would be included on a homeschool transcript whereas a DE class is on it's own transcript? How are they weighted on a transcript?

Does anyone have any experience with this yet?  

Thanks so much!

[sbgrace]

Thank you for posting this! I'm curious as well.

I'm also curious about experiences with the program. Is the instruction good? 

[Lilaclady]

I don’t have personal experience with it but from people who have used it, it counts just as much as a DE credit. This is a loophole that I’m only aware of ASU using where the student can choose not to accept the credit if they don’t score high enough. There are some Facebook groups dedicated to the ASU dual enrollment families so you can check them. From what I understand, most courses are asynchronous and the students watch videos and then do quizzes and tests. I’m not sure how much support is available though. 

[Lori D.]

My thinking is no, these courses will not be as rigorous as traditional college courses, nor as widely accepted as AP.

I think the real keys will be:

1. How accepted will these all online credits be at other universities, beyond ASU?
Top tier and selective colleges already don't accept many DE courses for credit, and some don't even accept AP for credit. For second tier and more accepting colleges, acceptance of DE and AP is more wide-spread, as those are "known quantities. Online mass-classes like these that ASU is offering are less likely to be widely accepted -- at least not as accepted as AP or DE. JMO.

2. What kind of quality and rigor will these courses offer?
As a general rule, online courses just can't compete with in-person, as far as amount of interaction and ability to ask questions or do hands-on labs, projects, group interactions, individual 1-on-1 with instructor, etc.

Specifically for this "Universal Learner" program, the bottom line for ASU is that they are going to want to NOT make these courses that rigorous -- they want to pass as many people who sign up as possible, because that is how ASU gets paid. If they make the courses of high rigor and competitive to higher end universities, fewer people will be able to pass, and fewer will pay. Also, these are going to have to be courses designed for large numbers of students, which is going to necessitate mostly automated, with little human oversight, and next to no individual time with an actual instructor. I can not imagine there is any way you can create quality online credits that will be widely accepted by other colleges in lieu of their own in-person courses. Again, JMO.
 

Side note:
I will confess a strong negative bias against ASU and their Universal Learner program for a separate reason. Back in the early 2000s, the small private Grand Canyon University, located in the same city as ASU, to keep from going under, went from private non-profit status to public for-profit status and innovated online degrees--which earned GCU enough to get back on track, and they have since then worked hard and jumped a lot of hoops to have their private non-profit status reinstated.

ASU, a much larger school that has always felt hyper-competitive with GCU, got their panties in a bunch about this, and yelled about how online degrees were inferior, and that it was all just a money-making scheme on the part of GCU, and that they, ASU, were above that sort of thing and only offered high quality in-person programs...

Fast forward 10 years to 2015 when ASU launched its own hard push for online degrees (in order to compete with the online degree craze that swept the nation) ... and suddenly, voilé! ASU is "unique," "stand-alone," and an "innovator of online education".

Sorry ASU. In my book, you don't get to yell that you think one form of providing courses is "bad" and that it's "all about making money" -- and then jump on that very same band wagon, and promote yourself as "good" and "innovative"...  The bottom line is that ASU got pissed off that a school that was a minor competitor was making money in a way that ASU hadn't considered before.  Now ASU is all-in on this cash-grab idea of online courses/degrees. Clearly, they are NOT in it for quality of education, because there is just NO way you can make watching videos of lectures and taking quizzes and tests as quality/rigorous as in-person classes. End rant. 😉 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, mlktwins said:

Here is the link https://ea.asu.edu/

@Farrar kindly posted about this in another thread here.

Would this be an advantage over AP, but less than DE?  Grades, if you choose to use them, would be included on a homeschool transcript whereas a DE class is on it's own transcript? How are they weighted on a transcript?

I don't know this program, but want to comment on two things you said.
1. Of course you can include DE classes on the homeschool transcript! It's just that if the student took any class at another school, they will also need the official transcript from that school. This would be true for the ASU courses as well.

2. How you choose to weight courses on the hs transcript is up to you. I did not weight anything (my DD graduated with 32 courses from a 4 year university)

ETA: I am wary of the quality of any courses that advertise "try and if you don't like your grade, you don't have to pay". This model cannot possibly lead to quality instruction with interaction with the teacher. It can only work with canned prerecorded courses where additional students don't cost the school any manpower.

Edited September 28, 2021 by regentrude

[Lori D.]

14 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I don't know this program, but want to comment on two things you said.
1. Of course you can include DE classes on the homeschool transcript! It's just that if the student took any class at another school, they will also need the official transcript from that school. This would be true for the ASU courses as well.

2. How you choose to weight courses on the hs transcript is up to you. I did not weight anything (my DD graduated with 32 courses from a 4 year university)

ETA: I am wary of the quality of any courses that advertise "try and if you don't like your grade, you don't have to pay". This model cannot possibly lead to quality instruction with interaction with the teacher. It can only work with canned prerecorded courses where additional students don't cost the school any manpower.

100% agree.

Also, that "only pay if you like the grade" idea is a HUGE potential problem area. I can see that MANY people will sign up and take these ASU classes, not do so well, decide to not pay for the credit -- but that is in essence AUDITING, which MANY colleges require you to declare with a transcript, even if there was no grade involved.

And another problem with the "only pay if you like your grade" thing -- yikes! I would think many other universities would look askance at that, thinking: "The student didn't pay for the credit... Why? Are they trying to hide a poor grade?? Gee, this doesn't sound like a student we want at our school..." At least if you sign-up/pay for a course and have to withdraw, a W on the transcript is legit, because there are a wide variety of reasons a student may have had to withdraw... Because the ASU program ADVERTISES as "if you don't like your grade, don't pay" -- that's going to make an instant connection in the mind of an admission officer when they see ASU Universal Learner connected to a student applying for admission...

Edited September 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

I don't have personal experience with ASU Universal Learner. However, I do now have firsthand experience with ASU's dual enrollment through ASU Prep and the Digital Prep coordinator for DE told me that the UL classes run exactly the same way - that the modules are the same for the courses and everything. They encourage their Prep students to take the courses that are offered as UL that way because it's less risk for them for a hard course and it's also cheaper if you're an out of state student.

I have been pretty impressed by the ASU course quality overall. And mildly surprised as well. I would say that it's at least as good as the community college near us that's really good. BalletBoy is taking a course about sustainability. There have been several essays, he has to do online discussions (written and video based - he has to record things where he gives a little speech), he has had to read and research a bunch of things, he has a computer proctored test every week that includes both multiple choice and short answer questions. It's clear that a human person has read his written assignments at least in most cases. None of it is *hard* per se. But it's only a 100 level introduction course. And the volume of work and level of readings seem on target for a beginning college course to me. 

And, to be clear, when a student takes a course DE through ASU Prep, it's the exact same course that ASU students are taking. So BalletBoy has a bunch of ASU Online students in his class.

From a practical standpoint, I don't think other colleges actually know if the credit came from some "weird" type thing. I think all they see is that it's from ASU. When I asked if the UL classes would look different on my kid's transcript than the Digital Prep classes, I was told no. So I'm not sure if it actually is any different. We went back and forth about which way to take one of the courses my kid is taking next semester and in the end decided to do one of them as UL just to get a feel. Also, it's cheaper, but it's not crazy cheaper. UL is $25+$400. Prep is $600 and some basic fee. So it's only about $200 more. In other words, if you were concerned, you could do the Prep version instead. The UL students go into a UL section with the same material. There are still live TA's and such though. But if you wanted a student to take the "real" course, they could take it for very little more.

Again, your kid is just getting a credit from ASU. At least to admissions, it should look as good as any credit from ASU.

[Farrar]

43 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

100% agree.

Also, that "only pay if you like the grade" idea is a HUGE potential problem area. I can see that MANY people will sign up and take these ASU classes, not do so well, decide to not pay for the credit -- but that is in essence AUDITING, which MANY colleges require you to declare with a transcript, even if there was no grade involved.

And another problem with the "only pay if you like your grade" thing -- yikes! I would think many other universities would look askance at that, thinking: "The student didn't pay for the credit... Why? Are they trying to hide a poor grade?? Gee, this doesn't sound like a student we want at our school..." At least if you sign-up/pay for a course and have to withdraw, a W on the transcript is legit, because there are a wide variety of reasons a student may have had to withdraw... Because the ASU program ADVERTISES as "if you don't like your grade, don't pay" -- that's going to make an instant connection in the mind of an admission officer when they see ASU Universal Learner connected to a student applying for admission...

If you don't pay, it doesn't show up. How would they see it? And if you report it and you have a good grade, how can that possibly hurt you? That says, even when the stakes are low, I put in a strong effort.

Also, if you're using it for a homeschool credit and not for a college credit, I absolutely don't see it as any different than using something like Great Courses. You pay the fee to enroll. You go in with the goal of purposefully auditing the course. You watch the lectures, you read some of the materials, you get a feel for how a course like this works, you do some assignments but not others. And maybe at home you do other things. Then, in the course descriptions, your parent writes up that you used this college material as an introduction and at home you did some other things, etc. I don't see how this could be any different.

In the other thread, I suggested it for a student to use for calculus because they were going to finish pre-calc mid-year but weren't sure what to fill the rest of the year with (UL has brief calc for business majors and calc I for science/engineering majors). I said, if the student is struggling, that's fine. Pull back and call it Bridge to Calculus on the transcript or something. Or just don't report anything about it at all. 

[Farrar]

One final thought. It's lovely if you live somewhere with a ton of great dual enrollment access. Bully for you. Not all of us do.

It's also lovely if you can just teach college level science or math for a kid who is ready. Great. Again, you're very lucky to be able to do that. Not all of us can.

[Lori D.]

Thank you @Farrar. That is encouraging info.

I would still encourage AZ in-state students to take the community college courses (or as DE if still in high school), as:
- the courses are in-person
- the instructors/classes are of good quality
- most credits transfer to all of the AZ universities
- courses less in cost by 25-30% less ($265/3 units) than that $400+ $25 ASU UL per course fee

[Lori D.]

10 minutes ago, Farrar said:

If you don't pay, it doesn't show up. How would they see it? And if you report it and you have a good grade, how can that possibly hurt you? That says, even when the stakes are low, I put in a strong effort...

Do not some colleges require transcripts from even only-audited courses?
 

10 minutes ago, Farrar said:

If you don't pay, it doesn't show up. How would they see it? And if you report it and you have a good grade, how can that possibly hurt you? That says, even when the stakes are low, I put in a strong effort...

Hmmm... that is invisible to admission officers. All they see is final grade, not strong (or weak) effort...
 

10 minutes ago, Farrar said:

... I absolutely don't see it as any different than using something like Great Courses. You pay the fee to enroll. You go in with the goal of purposefully auditing the course. You watch the lectures, you read some of the materials, you get a feel for how a course like this works, you do some assignments but not others. And maybe at home you do other things. Then, in the course descriptions, your parent writes up that you used this college material as an introduction and at home you did some other things, etc. I don't see how this could be any different...

Agree about seeing no difference than homeschoolers using Great Courses -- which is exactly why I don't see this option looking "better" than (and hence an advantage over) DE or AP. (OP's question)  

Sure, if the student is a good self-paced learner, I can see the possible helpfulness. But I don't see this being more advantageous or looking better than DE or AP.

8 minutes ago, Farrar said:

One final thought. It's lovely if you live somewhere with a ton of great dual enrollment access. Bully for you. Not all of us do.

It's also lovely if you can just teach college level science or math for a kid who is ready. Great. Again, you're very lucky to be able to do that. Not all of us can.

And yes, of course, is this is all that's available, and it's "legit", then go for it.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Lori D. said:

Thank you @Farrar. That is encouraging info.

I would still encourage AZ in-state students to take the community college courses (or as DE if still in high school), as:
- the courses are in-person
- the instructors/classes are of good quality
- most credits transfer to all of the AZ universities
- courses less in cost by 25-30% less ($265/3 units) than that $400+ $25 ASU UL per course fee

It's definitely not targeted at Arizona students.

It's significantly cheaper than DE for us. We pay about $1100 for one community college course.

All our community colleges are still online. Again, great (I mean, sorta?) if you're somewhere that community colleges went back in person, but they didn't here.

They're the same instructors that teach ASU courses so I'm not sure why they'd be any worse than community college teachers.

1 minute ago, Lori D. said:

Do not some colleges require transcripts from even only-audited courses?
 

Hmmm... that is invisible to admission officers. All they see is final grade, not strong (or weak) effort...
 

Agree about seeing no difference than homeschoolers using Great Courses -- which is exactly why I don't see this option looking "better" than (and hence an advantage over) DE or AP. (OP's question)  

Sure, if the student is a good self-paced learner, I can see the possible helpfulness. But I don't see this being more advantageous or looking better than DE or AP.

There is no transcript if you don't buy the credit. So there's nothing to send at all. Nothing is generated at all. So they will only see it if you have a grade you like. And I do think a good grade represents a strong effort. I mean, the courses are not no work even if some might be on the easy end as college classes go. But ASU - a state flagship level university - is taking this for their engineering students. It's not a nothing class either.

In terms of using it for homeschooling, it's cheaper than Great Courses. And it allows for the possibility of getting college credit. I really do think it's fine to, say, look at Habitable Worlds, and go, okay, let's use this for our science this year and I'll discuss it with my student as we go and I'll support them and if it seems like they're doing well, then, fly kid and get a college credit. And if it seems like they're struggling, then that's okay, I'll dial the work back and we'll just use it as a jumping off point. No harm, no foul. You still get cheap access to quality instruction and syllabus.

I'm not saying it's better or worse than local DE or an AP course. But it's cheaper. And self-paced is a plus for some students. BalletBoy is BUSY and live classes rarely fit his full dance schedule. AP courses are typically more discussion based and have more depth overall, IMO. But Mushroom took a community college class that was literally two bleeping powerpoints and one joke of an open-book "test" that was little better than middle school level. And that was a "live" class. So I can't even get going about community college. He's had much better classes since at a different CC, but still. These courses are at least standardized in quality and have a good number of assignments.

[Farrar]

Oh, one more thing. If people didn't realize - there's also the Online G3 partnership with ASU Universal Learner. With that, you pay a fee to take the course through G3 and you enroll in the UL course. G3 has a weekly live meeting where they support the material in the UL course. So then it's like having your own little high school dual enrollment study group with a live teacher. Right now, they're only offering Sociology and Medieval History that way, but it's a neat idea.

[regentrude]

@Farrar
I am glad to hear that your DS is having a good experience. I am, however, still puzzled how a college can sustain this kind of setup with non-paying students (who will end up the majority, if the spectacularly low completion rates of MOOCs are anything to go by) when they have to hire actual human beings to do grading, interacting, help sessions. I can see this work for an easy humanities course that uses mostly canned material and a few TAs who give cursory comments on the occasional essay, but not for a math course where students have difficulties understanding the lecture material and need actual humans to be available to assist with homework, clarifying concepts, etc on a continuing basis.  

Edited September 28, 2021 by regentrude

[Lori D.]

Appreciate the firsthand experiences, @Farrar 😄 

It doesn't sound like it would be an advantage over DE or AP, as original poster was asking about.

But it sounds like it is working out to be a good option for distance learning for some high school students. And -- thx for the additional option idea of Online G3. Yea for options! 😄 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

@Farrar
I am glad to hear that your DS is having a good experience. I am, however, still puzzled how a college can sustain this kind of setup with non-paying students (who will end up the majority, if the spectacularly low completion rates of MOOCs are anything to go by) when they have to hire actual human beings to do grading, interacting, help sessions. I can see this work for an easy humanities course that uses mostly canned material and a few TAs who give cursory comments on the occasional essay, but not for a math course where students have difficulties understanding the lecture material and need actual humans to be available to assist with homework, clarifying concepts, etc on a continuing basis.  

I see what you're saying but... It's only introductory classes with no prereqs. So it is all preset material that's mostly canned like a MOOC. And it's only a few courses and I don't think they plan to expand it a ton. They don't offer much support if you're struggling from what I can tell. So it is like staffing a MOOC in that sense. They're checking the work, but only to a point. The tests are computer proctored. The TA's are mostly there to monitor online discussions and grade written work, but a lot of the work is also multiple choice, so it's computer graded. Plus, the TA's don't have to grade what people don't do. So I'm sure you're right - that the completion rate is relatively low overall. But then that means they can bank on less work for the TA's.

ASU has really pushed their mission to expand education to as many students as possible. They've significantly expanded in size. They've targeted a lot of different ways to offer more opportunities to low-income and first gen students. So I think they're funding this because it fits with their mission. It's essentially something like 25 of the most popular required courses for first year students. 

I've been put in the position of defending it... but there are really a bunch of issues here. It's not like a love this program deeply from a purpose-driven education standpoint. I do think for families looking to outsource that AP courses with a live component tend to have more interaction and support and depth than something like this. And that a live class with a local DE prof will usually have an edge in pure quality over this. And that families also don't need to overfocus on outsourcing. Home based courses can also potentially offer more depth. At home you can make a crazy great reading list. You can push writing much higher. Like, I can't imagine that Comp 101 or 102 at ASU UL is somehow better than what the majority of homeschoolers could achieve at home for an in depth English course.

BUT, I think these courses look about as strong to college admissions and are just as likely to transfer as community college classes. So when the goal is the credit and the outside verification for a particular goal, then I think this is a fine option that folks should be aware of.

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Appreciate the firsthand experiences, @Farrar 😄 

It doesn't sound like it would be an advantage over DE or AP, as original poster was asking about.

But it sounds like it is working out to be a good option for distance learning for some high school students. Yea for options! 😄 

No, I do think there are advantages for some. The price could be cheaper. And you have the option to essentially drop the course with zero consequences or use the material to prep for college work and intentionally not trying to get credit. But those advantages can be disadvantages as well - it's more expensive than dual enrollment for some people and the lack of consequences for not getting the work done will demotivate some students and lead to procrastination and a wasted semester. It's just a really different style of resource. Better for some, worse for others.

I strongly believe it's a wash compared to community college dual enrollment. Not an advantage or disadvantage. It would be a plus to ASU, lol. A minus at your state publics where they'll know your local CC. A minus compared to dual enrollment live at a prestigious 4 year, but that's rare to have the ability to access. And essentially the same everywhere else.

[Lori D.]

34 minutes ago, Farrar said:

No, I do think there are advantages for some. The price could be cheaper. And you have the option to essentially drop the course with zero consequences or use the material to prep for college work and intentionally not trying to get credit. But those advantages can be disadvantages as well - it's more expensive than dual enrollment for some people and the lack of consequences for not getting the work done will demotivate some students and lead to procrastination and a wasted semester. It's just a really different style of resource. Better for some, worse for others.

I strongly believe it's a wash compared to community college dual enrollment. Not an advantage or disadvantage. It would be a plus to ASU, lol. A minus at your state publics where they'll know your local CC. A minus compared to dual enrollment live at a prestigious 4 year, but that's rare to have the ability to access. And essentially the same everywhere else.

I should have clarified -- I was answering based on knowing OP was looking for specific "advantages" -- grade-verification and showing rigor on the homeschool transcript. Because AP is a long-time known standard, that is definitely more advantageous in showing those things than the newer "unknown rigor value" of the ASU UL program.

Similarly, if the DE is done at a school that feeds into the university with an articulation agreement so that the university sees the DE from a community college as a "known quantity" -- there is no way the "unknown quantity" of an online program is going to look the same to the university. Even if the student only has "ASU" on the transcript, and not the name of the specific program through ASU, it is going to be very clear that the the credits from ASU had to be all online, when the student lives across the country from ASU. So, I do disagree with you about the DE from a community college being a wash.

But, really, just as you feel you're being pushed into defending ASU UL, I feel like I'm being put in the position of demonizing the ASU UL program. And I'm not. I personally think if in-person DE at a decent community college, or AP, are options yes, I would recommend them over the all online "pay only if you like the grade" option of ASU UL every time. I DO think the vast majority of in-person courses beat online learning for many many students. BUT, if the ASU UL is the option that works for a family and helps them achieve their goals, and if those credits are accepted by the future 4-year university of choice, then, again, yea for options! 😄 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[RootAnn]

Dd#2 who is not a strong math student tried ASU's College Algebra class. Either way it was a win for her. If she passed, she wouldn't have to take College Algebra in college. She'd come in with that credit. If she didn't pass, she spent the time working through the math (using ALEKS, basically). It was like trying to CLEP it.

After spending most of her senior year working through it & taking the first two practice exams, it was clear she wouldn't pass. So she dumped it. I don't think she even paid the $25 because she signed up when they were doing a covid special, I think. She finished out the year sitting through math with her younger sister.

Anyway, she's taking College Algebra now at college. It is looking so far like the time using ASU wasn't completely wasted as this is about the third time through some topics & my kids all need a lot of repetition. This one could probably use another 2-3 times through to learn it but she'll likely never use it in life. Fortunately, she only needs to take a non-calc-based statistics class & she's done w/math.

She didn't use the teaching videos much. She never used the help offered. She just went through the ALEKS modules. So, YMMV. 

[JD1]

Thanks for the great discussion. I was going to post a new thread on this topic but fortunately found this one. We live in rural central Arizona, too far from a local CC. Our son is 11th grade and hoping for admission to an elite university.

Last year he started taking online dual enrollment courses offered by Embry Riddle Aero U. So far he has Engineering 101, Calculus Anyl Geo 241(hard math for engr) and now Physics 150(for engr.) The classes are not cheap($250 per credit hour). They are all asynchronous although there are group projects and discussions. I can discuss more in detail our experience if anyone is interested,

but my general question is do college admissions departments view these various DE programs any differently? We were looking at the ASU UL courses for some computer science credits but the 'pay only if you like the grade' seems to be a potential red flag in the eyes of college admissions....It seems the Embry Riddle name might be an advantage over a local CC, but I am guessing.  We won't need transfer credit for any of these(assuming son gets into elites they wont give credit anyway), so we are doing this to show rigor in his high school transcript.

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, JD1 said:

... Our son is 11th grade and hoping for admission to an elite university... 

...Last year he started taking online dual enrollment courses offered by Embry Riddle Aero U...
... my general question is do college admissions departments view these various DE programs any differently? We were looking at the ASU UL courses for some computer science credits but the 'pay only if you like the grade' seems to be a potential red flag in the eyes of college admissions....It seems the Embry Riddle name might be an advantage over a local CC, but I am guessing.  We won't need transfer credit for any of these(assuming son gets into elites they wont give credit anyway), so we are doing this to show rigor in his high school transcript.

When you list courses for DE, you just list the school, not whether or not it was done as online or in-person. So colleges are just going to see that the DE was done through Embry Riddle, which has a great reputation.

It looks like the ASU UL program has a special track for high school students to use the program... I'm not seeing on their quick explanation webpage that it is actually called or considered DE?? But apparently it is, if there's a whole FB site set up for families to use the program in that way...

To show rigor in additional ways to DE, you might also consider having your student take an AP test or two, such as the Computer Science. Since you are in a rural area, you might be able to hire a facility/proctor to do "off-site testing". You would need to scramble to get set up to do an AP test at the end of this year (which is when it would have most impact on college applications, which are sent out in early autumn of the senior year) -- because AP tests are scheduled for 2 weeks in May -- so at the END of a school year.

Or create a semester-long or year-long project that shows advanced skills and thinking, plus leadership, self-discipline, and a high level of interest/passion in the subject area of the project -- that is the sort of thing that makes a student stand out in college applications to elite schools.

Good luck with the admissions to his choice of elite college!

[ieta_cassiopeia]

On 9/28/2021 at 10:48 PM, regentrude said:

@Farrar
I am glad to hear that your DS is having a good experience. I am, however, still puzzled how a college can sustain this kind of setup with non-paying students (who will end up the majority, if the spectacularly low completion rates of MOOCs are anything to go by) when they have to hire actual human beings to do grading, interacting, help sessions.

Students pay $25 to sign up. It's just that students are charged an extra $400 if they pass the course (to have their grade affixed to their record).

I would assume that if the numbers ever don't work, the proportions would be adjusted.

[MamaSprout]

On 10/26/2021 at 3:55 PM, Lori D. said:

When you list courses for DE, you just list the school, not whether or not it was done as online or in-person. So colleges are just going to see that the DE was done through Embry Riddle, which has a great reputation.

It looks like the ASU UL program has a special track for high school students to use the program... I'm not seeing on their quick explanation webpage that it is actually called or considered DE?? But apparently it is, if there's a whole FB site set up for families to use the program in that way...

To show rigor in additional ways to DE, you might also consider having your student take an AP test or two, such as the Computer Science. Since you are in a rural area, you might be able to hire a facility/proctor to do "off-site testing". You would need to scramble to get set up to do an AP test at the end of this year (which is when it would have most impact on college applications, which are sent out in early autumn of the senior year) -- because AP tests are scheduled for 2 weeks in May -- so at the END of a school year.

Or create a semester-long or year-long project that shows advanced skills and thinking, plus leadership, self-discipline, and a high level of interest/passion in the subject area of the project -- that is the sort of thing that makes a student stand out in college applications to elite schools.

Good luck with the admissions to his choice of elite college!

Course codes do often show how the class was offered. Where I work, you can tell on the transcript by the code if it was OL (online) or on in a high school building (HS). Our in state schools do differentiate how they accept those credits. Dd's first choice school generally won't accept OL or HS courses without a placement test. School #2 doesn't care. Do schools AZ designate this way? ETA:  In terms of rigor, the ASU math classes are basically ALEKs. I'm sure any other DE would be more rigorous.

Edited October 28, 2021 by MamaSprout

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Students pay $25 to sign up. It's just that students are charged an extra $400 if they pass the course (to have their grade affixed to their record).

I would assume that if the numbers ever don't work, the proportions would be adjusted.

There is NO way to hire qualified humans who do thoughtful evaluations and academic assistance, if that is the model.

They won't adjust the proportions; they will largely have computers grade the work and not offer assistance beyond automated online programs. That you can scale up at will with almost no additional cost.

Edited October 28, 2021 by regentrude

[chiguirre]

On 9/28/2021 at 4:48 PM, regentrude said:

@Farrar
I am glad to hear that your DS is having a good experience. I am, however, still puzzled how a college can sustain this kind of setup with non-paying students (who will end up the majority, if the spectacularly low completion rates of MOOCs are anything to go by) when they have to hire actual human beings to do grading, interacting, help sessions. 

ASU is using this as a hook to funnel students into their online Bachelors programs. Just the military is a huge market (there are more than a million enlisted personnel) and they're basically forced to do an online program. Locking in even a small slice of the market with a low, low teaser rate and no risk grade policy probably pays for itself. 

[ieta_cassiopeia]

23 hours ago, regentrude said:

There is NO way to hire qualified humans who do thoughtful evaluations and academic assistance, if that is the model.

They won't adjust the proportions; they will largely have computers grade the work and not offer assistance beyond automated online programs. That you can scale up at will with almost no additional cost.

Depends what proportion of students bother to avail themselves of the assistance/evaluations. Students who are effectively doing a charged audit do neither, and even some students who are taking it seriously (and thus do work that needs evaluating) won't ask for academic help.

[regentrude]

16 minutes ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Depends what proportion of students bother to avail themselves of the assistance/evaluations. Students who are effectively doing a charged audit do neither, and even some students who are taking it seriously (and thus do work that needs evaluating) won't ask for academic help.

which means that the level will necessarily not be that rigorous - because there is no way to teach complex concepts without giving the students an opportunity to interact with a human being. (Yes, there are exceptions of very bright and motivated students. Those are few.)

I am very very jaded about online education after seeing how poorly the majority of students fare when all they have to teach them is  a computer with canned lectures and computer graded homework. We are seeing the by far weakest cohort of college freshmen/sophomores this semester, and that can be directly traced back to 18 months of mainly online instruction in late highschool/early college. It works for a few motivated and disciplined students, but most students will not learn anything if it is more than a check-the-box fluff course. 
ETA: If I sound grumpy, it is because I am currently dealing with this fallout. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by regentrude

[JD1]

Regentrude, is your job at a college, private or public? I would echo your thoughts above. Personal experience of my son is his university courses(with the exception of the Calculus) were book reading, little teacher involvement, asynchronous, and maybe very little learning unless you were passionate.  Multiple choice tests were the norm.  He also still speaks to his friends at Oregon Episcopal School(he did 7th & 8th grades) and the norm at that 'best school in the state' is the students learned nothing over the past year online.  The admin was scrambling to figure out online zooms, etc.

However, DS' experience at WTMA is the opposite. They have mastered the technology pieces, the classes are all live, using blackboard and they have chat and audio participation.  He says that the difference between WTMA and and the college online is remarkable.  So fortunately for him he has done well.

[Roadrunner]

On 10/29/2021 at 9:32 AM, regentrude said:

which means that the level will necessarily not be that rigorous - because there is no way to teach complex concepts without giving the students an opportunity to interact with a human being. (Yes, there are exceptions of very bright and motivated students. Those are few.)

I am very very jaded about online education after seeing how poorly the majority of students fare when all they have to teach them is  a computer with canned lectures and computer graded homework. We are seeing the by far weakest cohort of college freshmen/sophomores this semester, and that can be directly traced back to 18 months of mainly online instruction in late highschool/early college. It works for a few motivated and disciplined students, but most students will not learn anything if it is more than a check-the-box fluff course. 
ETA: If I sound grumpy, it is because I am currently dealing with this fallout. 

I have come to the sad realization that all people want is paper to wave around. Not enough of them care for actual learning. It’s all about credits, getting through as cheaply as possible so you can have a paper and be done. Online schools and classes are really catering to this group (not directed at OP. We are also homeschoolers in the same situation as OP navigating the same nightmare). 

[regentrude]

On 10/30/2021 at 8:47 PM, JD1 said:

Regentrude, is your job at a college, private or public? I would echo your thoughts above. Personal experience of my son is his university courses(with the exception of the Calculus) were book reading, little teacher involvement, asynchronous, and maybe very little learning unless you were passionate.  Multiple choice tests were the norm. 

Yes, I teach at a public university.

Online courses can vary in quality. When I had to offer my entire course in an online format, they consisted of asynchronous video lectures I recorded and edited myself (including demonstrations, computer simulations, and lots of worked out examples); two synchronous recitations via Zoom each week where students can engage with a professor; ten hours of live help sessions via Zoom with student tutors and professors. We had to temporarily use multiple choice exams because that is the only way to give randomized questions in an unproctored exam for a large class.
The online class was way more work without reaping any of the joys of personal interaction with students. It sucked. Student engagement is much lower, too. We have known for years that students tend to perform less well in the online classes (even when they had live recitations) because it requires more discipline to remain focused in asynchronous online lectures while at the same time it appears more appealing to students who don't want to drag themselves to class in person. The students least suited to succeed are the ones most likely to sign up for an online version.