What is "The End" of Learning to Write?

[Gil]

In hindsight, I should've thought to ask this a few years ago but oh well.

When do you know that your student has "finished" learning to write?
What markers signal to you that you can stop teaching writing?

By now, in my estimation, The Boys are both competent writers. I'm no expert, but they write speeches, essays and stories that usually get my approval, though sometimes I make them do it again (and again).

I think that they've reached the level of "good writers" though, I'm clueless as to how to help them progress beyond "good writing".

[BusyMom5]

After they are good writers,  then they just keep practicing.   A good writer has few grammatical errors and can fix them if plugged into Grammerly.  They can write a 5 paragraph essay quickly on any topic they are familiar with.  They know how to research, cite sources,  and organize a longer paper.  

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

They can write a 5 paragraph essay quickly on any topic they are familiar with.

I hate 5-paragraph essays and hope I never, ever have to write one again 😛 . So I hope they aren't the endpoint of being a good writer! 

I'm not sure there IS an endpoint. Why does there have to be? There are many, many possible writing skills, and they can keep working on them. 

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

 They can write a 5 paragraph essay quickly on any topic they are familiar with. 

And they realize that most topics are not adequately treated with a 5 paragraph essay and are able to break from this rigid formula.

[regentrude]

Good writing: no grammatical or semantics mistakes; varied sentence structure and vocabulary; voice and style appropriate for the topic and genre; appropriate handling of sources, direct and indirect quotations; good structure of the essay, logical argumentation.

[BusyMom5]

Lol!  I'm not sure if the goal is the 5 paragraph essay is the formula,so much, or the ability to quickly organize and convey information.   I know many here hate them- 5 paragraphs rarely fit a natural paper,  but I do think that they provide a good structure- clear thesis, organizing information into groups that belong together,  transitioning from one subtopic to another, throwing out stuff that doesn't really fit into your topics or thesis, staying on topic, supporting your thesis with details, data, etc.  Once you are able to clearly organize information into appropriate subtopics, your paper can be expanded or condensed as needed.  

I did think of one other thing to add- knowing your audience and keeping writing more formal if necessary.   ALL of my kids use slang in their writing and I'm always having to go in and explain why we can't use a phrase in certain types of writing.   

[Gil]

5 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

After they are good writers,  then they just keep practicing.   A good writer has few grammatical errors and can fix them if plugged into Grammerly.  They can write a 5 paragraph essay quickly on any topic they are familiar with.  They know how to research, cite sources,  and organize a longer paper.  

Grammarly? That would assume I like my kids enough to allow them assistive technology. Compositions that I'll grade, they get wide-ruled paper, a nice ink pen and a topic. If the paper is "just an assignment", they use their 5 subject "Composition" notebook.

 

[regentrude]

29 minutes ago, Gil said:

Grammarly? That would assume I like my kids enough to allow them assistive technology. Compositions that I'll grade, they get wide-ruled paper, a nice ink pen and a topic. If the paper is "just an assignment", they use their 5 subject "Composition" notebook.

Writing by hand is powerful. I still do all my creative writing by hand, at least for the drafts, and my professor insists on that as well. It's also great for note taking because retention is better than with typing.

At some point, however, your kids need to transition to writing on the computer. Being able type and use a word processing software are important skills for college readiness. And once the length of the paper exceeds a certain number of pages, editing and rewriting by hand become inefficient, and foregoing modern conveniences no longer improves the quality of the writing.

ETA: And while the student should know how to run spell check and perhaps a grammar check, I agree that none of these should be necessary for a proficient writer at the high school age. I have also not seen a grammar tool that can handle creative writing; too inflexible and not smart enough.

Edited September 28, 2021 by regentrude

[EKS]

6 hours ago, Gil said:

When do you know that your student has "finished" learning to write?
What markers signal to you that you can stop teaching writing?

I would argue that even a professional writer is never finished learning to write.

I never stopped teaching writing, if by teaching writing you mean talking about how to improve writing, what makes good writing, helping with editing, and so on.  My 25yo son still runs important documents past me, and we talk about them--and this is a person with a minor in writing and rhetoric.

[Gil]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

I would argue that even a professional writer is never finished learning to write.

I never stopped teaching writing, if by teaching writing you mean talking about how to improve writing, what makes good writing, helping with editing, and so on.  My 25yo son still runs important documents past me, and we talk about them--and this is a person with a minor in writing and rhetoric.

While that is wonderful, in theory, I have neither the desire nor the ability to teach writing "indefinitely".

"Never finished learning" is not an actionable or targetable thing.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Gil said:

While that is wonderful, in theory, I have neither the desire nor the ability to teach writing "indefinitely".

"Never finished learning" is not an actionable or targetable thing.

Why not? My personal plan is to keep providing input on the kids' compositions, while they are interested in hearing it. 

Or do you mean you don't feel like doing any more writing curricula? I'm not sure I quite understand. 

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, Gil said:

While that is wonderful, in theory, I have neither the desire nor the ability to teach writing "indefinitely".

"Never finished learning" is not an actionable or targetable thing.

Those are two very different things. One never finishes learning to write, that is true. At the same time, that doesn't mean that you have to continue to be teaching. 

But I assume you mean: at what point does my student have the writing proficiency expected from a college ready high school student? Because after that point, the homeschooling parent can hand the baton to the college instruction and the young adult learner.

Edited September 28, 2021 by regentrude

[Gil]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Why not? My personal plan is to keep providing input on the kids' compositions, while they are interested in hearing it. 

Or do you mean you don't feel like doing any more writing curricula? I'm not sure I quite understand. 

What do you mean "why not"? I literally stated I have neither the desire nor the ability to teach writing "indefinitely".

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Gil said:

What do you mean "why not"? I literally stated I have neither the desire nor the ability to teach writing "indefinitely".

Well, then I suppose I'd stop when you run out of either desire or ability. If you're there and the kids are competent writers, that seems like a fine endpoint. 

[daijobu]

If you are running out of writing topics to teach, and you think your students will enter a mathematical field, you might teach them to use Overleaf for future papers.  

[regentrude]

26 minutes ago, daijobu said:

If you are running out of writing topics to teach, and you think your students will enter a mathematical field, you might teach them to use Overleaf for future papers.  

or any other form of LaTeX. Same goes if you think student may want to go into physics.

[Farrar]

Another vote that there is no end to writing. Looking for one is a bit fruitless. It's just not that sort of discipline and trying to envision it that way is misunderstanding what writing even is.

From a practical standpoint, your students need four strong English credits spread over four years for admission at most competitive colleges. So in that sense, there's a clear endpoint and goal for you as a teacher.

[kokotg]

Another vote for "never finished" learning to write. More specifically, I've read a lot of high school writing and spent a couple of years teaching freshman comp when I was in grad school (at a very good, selective college), and I've yet to find a high school/early college student who hasn't still needed an awful lot of help translating complex ideas into effective written prose.

[kokotg]

That said, I've never used a formal writing curriculum after middle school or early high school. My kids write in most of their subjects; certainly in literature, but also a lot in history/social science classes, some in science, in Spanish, etc. Even in upper level math they're writing proofs frequently. If I weren't comfortable teaching argumentative writing in the upper grades, I'd definitely outsource it to DE or somewhere else. I actually have some regrets about not having my current 12th grader take any outside classes where he'd need to write some longer papers (as opposed to just writing for me), because I think it's a good experience to do that for different teachers with different sets of expectations. 

[EKS]

3 hours ago, Gil said:

While that is wonderful, in theory, I have neither the desire nor the ability to teach writing "indefinitely".

"Never finished learning" is not an actionable or targetable thing.

Yes, well, I'm not saying you have to teach writing indefinitely.  What I am saying is that I wouldn't stop focusing on writing until they are in college.  That doesn't mean I would use a writing program (ever), just that there it is always possible to improve one's writing.

[Lori D.]

first, a quick side note re: technology
Along about late elementary, every student should learn how to "touch type" (type without looking at the keyboard), as by late middle school (7th/8th grade) if you do any outsourcing at all, papers must be typed and printed out. Also by that age/stage, writing becomes longer, and it is MUCH easier and more efficient to do revisions via computer than be handwriting and then laboriously re-writing a multi-page assignment -- often multiple times. Also, as the student hits the late middle school/high school age, there is the need for typed writing as that is required to be able to upload the writing, whether for an outsourced class, a job application, college application, etc.

As @regentrude so concisely and elegantly stated above, " Being able type and use a word processing software are important skills for college readiness. And once the length of the paper exceeds a certain number of pages, editing and rewriting by hand become inefficient, and foregoing modern conveniences no longer improves the quality of the writing." 
 

8 hours ago, Gil said:

While that is wonderful, in theory, I have neither the desire nor the ability to teach writing "indefinitely".
"Never finished learning" is not an actionable or targetable thing.

Perhaps make a checklist of topics that are important to you to cover, and then teach/practice those, as it is age-appropriate/skill-appropriate for your students. Maybe look at the table of contents for a few writing programs to get some ideas if you have any "gaps", and teach those.

Below in a NON-comprehensive list 😉 of some things that have been important to me to make sure my co-op class students understand, practice, and become proficient in. Some are best done with high school ages, so your students may not quite be ready, as I believe your boys are late elementary/middle school ages?

Also, as you practice different types of writing, you often discover specific writing topics that need to be explained and practiced, so I have also included ideas of writing assignment types, in case that sparks any thoughts for you of what you still might want to cover.

Cheers, Lori D.
_____________________

Writing topics I have covered at different times for various classes:
- complete sentence
- composing different types of complete sentences (for style, variety, and interest)
- complete paragraph (parts & structure; sentence types: topic; support & detail; commentary; concluding)
- different types of paragraphs
- 4 types of writing: descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive
- peer review -- and how to do it in a way that is actually helpful and intelligent 😉 
- stages of writing: brainstorming, organizing, rough draft writing, revising, proof-editing
- brainstorming: ways of generating ideas
- organizing: sorting & arranging the brainstorming; outlines, mind maps, graphic organizers, "writing road map"
- revision: structure fixes (add/remove/move/combine); sentence fixes (run-ons, fragments, odd/weak structure); style fixes (consistent voice; refining word choice; etc.)
- proof-editing: small fixes (spelling, typos, punctuation, capitalization, doubled/missing word, formatting, etc.)
- tools and techniques for each of the 5 stages of writing
- essay structure (intro, body, concluding paragraphs, and what goes into each)
- hooks, introductions, "intro info", defining terms or providing needed explanations
- transitions, topic sentence, "context summary"
- type of evidence (facts, data, statistics, research, examples, anecdotes, expert opinion, etc.) depends on type of writing
- commentary, concluding commentary
- conclusions, "clinchers"
- how to embed or blend in quotations properly
- complete thesis statement (topic; claim; direction)
- building an argument of support (types of evidence; commentary)
- persuasive writing versus blaring opinions or bludgeoning others
- logic and fallacies (as relates to building an argument of support)
- formatting a document (MLA, APA are the 2 most frequently used format styles)
- plagiarism, citing (when/how to use in-text citations and full citations)
- creating a Works Cited page, and full citation
- helps for generating a title
- tips on style (adding "spice", variety, interest to personal writing style; word choice; phrasing/sentence variety; etc.)
___________________

ideas for types of writing to practice:

Writing for Speaking:
- public speaking --  presentations of various types/lengths, with/without visual aid support, power point, etc.
- debate: Speech & Debate team/club; research/support arguments; Model Legislation bill debate; etc.

Real Life Writing:
- resume, filling out a job application
- writing letters of different types:
   letter to the editor
   cover letter (example: to go with a resume or application)
   request letter (example: for someone to write you a letter of recommendation)
   formal thank you (example: for scholarship award, or help in college advising)
   formal complaint letter/request for action
- business writing prep: report; memo; presenting/explaining/"pitching" info or a plan/idea at a meeting
- company newsletter article
- blog or website articles
- reports, reviews, explanation/teaching
- technical writing

Creative Writing - optional
- journalism -- news stories, sports stories, features, opinion/editorial
- poetry
- short stories, novels
- "creative nonfiction" (personal essay)

"Non traditional" Writing Assignment ideas:
- ad, brochure, poster
- journal entries, free-writing (from prompt or not)

High School/College Writing:
- science lab write-ups
- short and/or long answers to quiz/test answers
- personal essays (for college admission / scholarship applications)
- paragraph responses about skills/abilities/leadership/extracurriculars in answer to scholarship questions
- expository (factual) paper with citations
- research paper with citations
- argumentative research paper with citations
- reader response to a prompt question
- descriptive paragraph (+ concept of ordering the paragraph in a logical way)
- personal narrative essay (narrative with deeper/overarching idea, lesson learned, or thesis)
- definition paragraph or short essay
- expository: news article; feature article
- expository: process ("how to") paper
- persuasive: cause and effect essay
- persuasive: argumentative essay (I have used old (pre-2016) SAT essay prompts)
- persuasive: opinion-based essay
- literary analysis: comparison essay
- literary analysis: character analysis essay
- literary analysis: explain a key quotation essay
- literary analysis: discuss a theme or literary elements and how they are at work
- literary analysis: personal application essay
- practice timed essays from past SAT/ACT prompts

___________________

Writing across the curriculum often presents new angles on writing. Below are ideas matched up with subjects:

English
- literature: reader responses, from prompts, or from student's insights/discoveries
- literature: literary analysis essays of various types
- various essays: argumentative, personal/narrative, timed test essays, college admissions/scholarship application essays
- journalism/blog writing, if student is interested
- creative writing, if student is interested
- technical writing, if student is interested

Math (a bit tougher for writing to flow naturally out of straight up math textbooks)
- oral presentation
- possibly included in a Science fair paper as part of the presentation
- informational papers with citations -- on a mathematician, development of a mathematical process, or historical aspect of mathematics

Science
- lab report
- full-length Science fair paper as part of the presentation
- oral presentation
- informational papers with citations
- research paper with citations
- argumentative: cause and effect
- technical writing

Social Studies -- History, Geography, Government, Political Science, Anthropology, Sociology, etc.
- oral presentation
- informational papers with citations
- research paper with citations
- argumentative essays of various types
- cause and effect essay
- comparison essay
- definition essay

Foreign Language
- oral presentation
- informational papers with citations
- research paper with citations
- comparison essay
      if fluent in the language and reading literature in the language:
- reader responses, from prompts, or from student's insights/discoveries
- literary analysis essays of various types

Fine Arts
- oral presentation
- process paper ("how to")
- informational papers with citations
"history of" an art media, key figure in the art media, explanation of specific techniques or media
- research paper with citations
- comparison essay
- viewer responses, from prompts, or from student's insights/discoveries
- analysis essays of various types

Electives
- oral presentation
- process ("how to") papers
- informational papers with citations
- research paper with citations
- possibly: argumentative essays, cause and effect papers, etc.
- possibly: technical writing
- possibly: real-life writing

Edited September 29, 2021 by Lori D.

[Clarita]

I think after getting to being a competent writer, you can start looking into writing for specific fields. I'm assuming your kids don't want to be writing career because otherwise it would be obvious where to go. 

I hated it as a kid but timed writing and having to write a given length (2 pages, 10 pages, 500 words...) helped me a lot in my professional life as an Electrical Engineer. 

And everything @Lori D. said. If all of that is excellent, then I would have a wider audience give my kids suggestions for their writing. I guess until you hand them off to a professor or the world to continue to improve their writing.

[EKS]

If you want some ideas for how to teach writing without teaching writing, the book Engaging Ideas is excellent.  It's about embedding writing assignments across the curriculum and about how the act of writing can aid thinking and how clear thinking is a key ingredient to good writing.  It also talks about how to help students become comfortable with genre specific writing.  Highly recommended.

Also, the idea to learn LaTeX now is a good one.

Edited September 29, 2021 by EKS

[Momto6inIN]

I consider their writing instruction done when they have mastered the business letter/email, the basic essay (including both when it is and is not appropriate to use the standard 5 paragraph format), the literary analysis essay, and the formal research paper. When they know how to do all those things with minimal input from me and minimal spelling/grammar errors, they are ready for whatever writing is necessary in their personal and professional life and my job is done.

[prairiewindmomma]

For me, when a student can do these things, I ease off:

1. researched 5+ page paper with proper footnotes, bibliography, citations, and handling of sources (ie not just paraphrasing research without reference, etc.)

2. persuasive essay without a lot of fallacies, on a position they personally do not hold

3. reflective piece that shows connection to the work (this pops up in college work here)

4. concise short answers to homework that are precise and comprehensive

Basically, I want them capable to go into college coursework.  I'm doing this for all of my kids, even one who wants to go into the trades. FWIW, I stop specific instruction on writing at that point, and just offer feedback and corrections as I make my kids write across all of their subject areas.

[Gil]

Follow Up Question--what to do about the child who'd rather gauge their eyes out with a blunted spork, than write literary analysis?

His (most credible) complaint is that Literary Analysis takes the enjoyment out of a story.

He can write LA, but he almost never does. Should I make him write a few more just to ensure that he had the experience and the skill is well developed, or just let it be?

[Not_a_Number]

55 minutes ago, Gil said:

Follow Up Question--what to do about the child who'd rather gauge their eyes out with a blunted spork, than write literary analysis?

His (most credible) complaint is that Literary Analysis takes the enjoyment out of a story.

He can write LA, but he almost never does. Should I make him write a few more just to ensure that he had the experience and the skill is well developed, or just let it be?

I don’t think I’d force this specific issue, personally, unless it’s needed for something external right now.

[Roadrunner]

So if you want an actionable goal, I would aim at producing one well written serious research paper. We have yet to manage it, and I think this could be a very useful exercise for a college bound kid. 

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Gil said:

Follow Up Question--what to do about the child who'd rather gauge their eyes out with a blunted spork, than write literary analysis?

His (most credible) complaint is that Literary Analysis takes the enjoyment out of a story.

I do agree with him, literary analysis does take the enjoyment out of a book or story for sure. In school it was always an assigned book/essay, so not neccessary something I liked anyways. 

I found when the literary analysis was a timed work it was more palatable. It seperated the analysis part from the writing part (both of which were not enjoyable). In school, the teacher would do socratic seminars with us throughout the reading of the work to hand hold us through analysizing it. During the early stage, she would give us the topic for the essay ahead of time to prepare then later we had to complete the essay in 1 class period  (~40min since we had to get to class, etc.). Later she would progress from 3-5 potential topics down to you just know the work you would be writing on. We were allowed notes and the written work.  

It got easier with practice and therefore less torturous. Having the writing part just be 40 mins was a challenge, but it certainly beat writing 10 pages on a topic I didn't care about.

  

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Gil said:

Follow Up Question--what to do about the child who'd rather gauge their eyes out with a blunted spork, than write literary analysis?

His (most credible) complaint is that Literary Analysis takes the enjoyment out of a story.

He can write LA, but he almost never does. Should I make him write a few more just to ensure that he had the experience and the skill is well developed, or just let it be?

What exactly is it you have him write when you say "lit analysis"? Harping on lit analysis essays can destroy the enjoyment of reading. You can have these discussions orally; work together to look into the details of the craft. Talk about how the author achieves a certain goal. What he thinks about the development of a character. You can delve deep into literature by simply having a conversation. 

When I had my kids write papers about literature, I always let them choose the work and the topic they wanted to explore. My philosophy is that it is easier to teach a kid to write by having them write about something they are actually interested in; once established, those skills can then be transferred to topics they don't care about. But it is much, much harder to make writing instruction productive if the kid has to learn the skill on a topic they dislike.

ETA: And whatever you do, PLEASE do not make the poor kid dissect a poem to discern "what the poet wanted to say". That has ruined poetry for generations of students! Signed: a poet

Edited October 1, 2021 by regentrude

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, Gil said:

Follow Up Question--what to do about the child who'd rather gauge their eyes out with a blunted spork, than write literary analysis?

His (most credible) complaint is that Literary Analysis takes the enjoyment out of a story...

Gently, I would suggest that you may be trying to do this with a student who is not ready for this type of writing.
Or you are asking the student to write too long of a paper, or write about a work the student is not interested in writing about.
Or you are taking a beloved work of literature and turning it into "school."

JMO, but I would back off of formal lit. analysis essays until high school, and enjoy discussing works, naturally, and as it comes up -- for us, that was often in the car on the way to somewhere, or at the dinner table, or even during school work or other times a week or a month or even several months after having read the work.

It can be as simple as taking about: "What did you think of that character's choice/action? Why do you think they did that? Do you think you would have done the same thing, or something different?"

Have fun with it! 😄 My boys would make really funny comments related to the lit. or about something that was said/done in the book. We'd take a moment to laugh and enjoy it -- that sort of comment still requires *engagement* with the lit. -- the student has to be thinking and comparing to come up with something witty. So, run with it. Once you see that engaging with literature can also be fun or funny, you can also begin to see that there can be some powerful and meaningful engagement as well.
 

3 hours ago, Clarita said:

I do agree with him, literary analysis does take the enjoyment out of a book or story for sure...

YIKES! I so DISAGREE!

If literary analysis is killing the joy of the work, then it is NOT being done correctly! YES, literary analysis is a closer look in order to learn and appreciate -- but NO, it is NOT beating a work to death (see poem below). I am so sorry for you, that you had a teacher who killed the enjoyment of literature, rather than inspiring you with the joy of digging deeper for the buried treasure in literature. 😢 I hope you have been able to recover both an enjoyment and a deeper appreciation for literature.


One other thought: some people are much more "black & white" thinkers and find it hard to see the depth and meaning beyond the stated plot or character descriptions in a work of literature. So that can be a hurdle to both appreciating literature, and especially kill any interest in writing about literature if are not really "seeing" anything deeper.

I teach Lit. & Comp. at our homeschool co-op, and it is MUCH more along the lines of what @regentrude describes above. Literature studies are about interacting with the work, and engaging in the Great Conversation that is literature.

Sure, it's possible to "beat a confession" out of literature and kill any enjoyment out of it. But on the flip side of that same coin, it's also possible to just read for plot and read as quickly as possible to find out "what happens" -- and miss all the richness of language or miss the opportunity to wrestle with the meaty questions and themes raised by the author. Sort of like gulping down a fancy/rich/complex dessert in two giant bites and hardly even tasting it, rather than taking your time and savoring the experience.😉

Great literature invites us to consider big ideas, and be inspired with personal applications. Yes, we need to learn a bit about literary elements and topics of literature to help provide some tools for helping us see what's going on in a work. But that is NO excuse for a teacher to make students take quizzes/tests on those techniques, or write timed literary analysis essays, or try and force some to come up with weird random thoughts like: "that thing is a symbol, what does it REALLY MEAN?"

Literature helps us think about the big questions of life, have experiences we wouldn't otherwise be able to have, see through the eyes of another, learn from the choices and actions of others, etc. With homeschooling my own DSs, and in teaching classes, those are the types of discussions, and the types of writing topics, I encourage. 

"Introduction to Poetry"
by Billy Collins

I ask them to take a poem
and hold it up to the light
like a color slide

or press an ear against its hive.

I say drop a mouse into a poem
and watch him probe his way out,

or walk inside the poem’s room
and feel the walls for a light switch.

I want them to waterski
across the surface of a poem
waving at the author’s name on the shore.

But all they want to do
is tie the poem to a chair with rope
and torture a confession out of it.

They begin beating it with a hose
to find out what it really means.

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Lori D.

[Gil]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

What exactly is it you have him write when you say "lit analysis"? Harping on lit analysis essays can destroy the enjoyment of reading. You can have these discussions orally; work together to look into the details of the craft. Talk about how the author achieves a certain goal. What he thinks about the development of a character. You can delve deep into literature by simply having a conversation. 

When I had my kids write papers about literature, I always let them choose the work and the topic they wanted to explore. My philosophy is that it is easier to teach a kid to write by having them write about something they are actually interested in; once established, those skills can then be transferred to topics they don't care about. But it is much, much harder to make writing instruction productive if the kid has to learn the skill on a topic they dislike.

ETA: And whatever you do, PLEASE do not make the poor kid dissect a poem to discern "what the poet wanted to say". That has ruined poetry for generations of students! Signed: a poet

This is the part where I confess I don't think I've ever assigned a Literary Analysis paper. The questions comes from the fact that I was reviewing the lists of skills and abilities that were shared and Lit Analysis stood out as a gaping hole in our "Comm and Comp" class.

It's something that I didn't think to do, and would've never occurred to me.

We kinda have a Separation of Church and State type situation with the boys Reading material.  I assign what nonfiction I want them to read and they read (almost) whatever fiction they want to. We've been doing it this way since early elementary and it just never occurred to me that we needed to change anything.

They have no problem discussing books, video games or shows that they enjoy indepth. But when I mentioned that they'll need to learn to do some Literary Analysis, he started spazzing out indignantly.

[Lori D.]

1 minute ago, Gil said:

This is the part where I confess I don't think I've ever assigned a Literary Analysis paper. The questions comes from the fact that I was reviewing the lists of skills and abilities that were shared and Lit Analysis stood out as a gaping hole in our "Comm and Comp" class.

It's something that I didn't think to do, and would've never occurred to me.

We kinda have a Separation of Church and State type situation with the boys Reading material.  I assign what nonfiction I want them to read and they read (almost) whatever fiction they want to. We've been doing it this way since early elementary and it just never occurred to me that we needed to change anything.

They have no problem discussing books, video games or shows that they enjoy indepth. But when I mentioned that they'll need to learn to do some Literary Analysis, he started spazzing out indignantly.

I'd do some "stepping stone" writing to slowly work towards "literary analysis essays". The first stepping stone would be discussion, to practice the thinking that is required for analysis types of writing.

That's great that they are already discussing books, video games, and shows! That can provide a great pool of topics to draw from for comparisons and connections as a first step into literary analysis.

Also, it sounds like it's time for you to start reading some fiction together with DSs (either aloud together, or each when it works for each of you, but roughly in the same weeks), so then you can engage in discussion all together as the first stepping stone towards eventually *writing* about the literature. 😉 

I know you have very little free time as a single working dad, but at this middle school age/stage, you could choose just 2 books, 1 per semester, to all read, and then discuss together.

[Gil]

3 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Also, it sounds like it's time for you to start reading some fiction together with DSs (either aloud together, or each when it works for each of you, but roughly in the same weeks), so then you can engage in discussion all together as the first stepping stone towards eventually *writing* about the literature. 😉

This is the part where I shudder and contemplate gauging my own eyes out as an "Out" to avoid this.
LOL. At least the poor kids comes by it honestly. 😳

[Gil]

In seriousness though, I'd been thinking of doing a Group Reading for Of Mice and Men, since the book is short and our library has 3 copies. I don't judge books by their covers, but by their spines. 📚

When The Boys were younger, I'd check out 3 copies of the same book and we'd read it aloud in real time.

The Boys still do this, but it's been a while since I've participated and they had asked me about "doing" books with them again sometime. 

Lori, what other books are short, stand alone stories?

 

[Not_a_Number]

30 minutes ago, Gil said:

This is the part where I shudder and contemplate gauging my own eyes out as an "Out" to avoid this.
LOL. At least the poor kids comes by it honestly. 😳

The analysis part or the reading part? 

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, Gil said:

...When The Boys were younger, I'd check out 3 copies of the same book and we'd read it aloud in real time...

...I'd been thinking of doing a Group Reading for Of Mice and Men...

Yea! Group reading, or a book club sounds great! But... GAH! I would NOT do Mice & Men with middle schoolers... even young high schoolers. ::shudder::

1 hour ago, Gil said:

... The Boys still do this, but it's been a while since I've participated and they had asked me about "doing" books with them again sometime...
...what other books are short, stand alone stories?

Yea! The fact that they're requesting you to do Group Reading again is a GREAT sign that they want to "dig deeper" -- and with YOU! 😄

short stand-alone book ideas
- The Old Man and the Sea (Hemingway)
- The Outsiders (Hinton)
- Animal Farm (Orwell) -- you will need to provide a bit of historical background
- Call of the Wild (London) -- FYI: kind of stout on the Victorian vocabulary/sentence structure
- The Invisible Man (HG Wells) -- FYI: also stout reading due to the Victorian vocabulary/sentence structure

short stories -- with links for reading online
(short stories are great because they're (usually) single sitting sessions for reading, and you can discuss either in the same sitting, or in another single sitting session)
- A Sound of Thunder (Bradbury) -- the original "butterfly effect" time-travel story
- All Summer in a Day (Bradbury) -- theme; bullying
- Flowers for Algernon (Keyes) -- speculative fiction topic
- The Tell Tale Heart, or, The Cask of Amontillado (Poe) -- how suspense or horror is built up
- The Most Dangerous Game (Connell) <-- that link is part of a teaching lesson
- Thank You, Ma'am (Hughes) -- character development
- The Lottery (Jackson) -- speculative fiction topic
- The Lady or the Tiger (Stockton) -- the famous first "you decide" story ending
- The Open Window (Saki) -- irony; twist ending; very short; humor
- A Story Without An End (Twain) -- how hard it is to write the ending of a creatively set-up story; humorous
- Rikki Tikki Tavi -- plot line; an epic in miniature
- The Monkey's Paw (Jacobs) -- horror, suspense, and a "leave you hanging" ending
- The Remarkable Rocket (Wilde) -- irony
- Lamb to the Slaughter (Dahl) -- "black humor"
- The Red-Headed League or A Scandal in Bohemia (Doyle)-- a Sherlock Holmes mystery; straight up detective fiction
- The Secret Life of Walter Mitty (Thurber) -- humor
- Rip Van Winkle (Irving) -- this character and situation are SO frequently alluded to, it's a good one to know
- The Most Dangerous Game (Connell) -- adventure / twist
- The Happy Prince (Wilde) -- pathos

YA (Young Adult) books
(you might also consider some YA, as they tend to be short/fast reads, BUT often have some meat for discussion as they wrestle with tough real-life issues and questions)
- Tuck Everlasting (Babbit) -- light; what would you do if offered everlasting life?
- The Giver (Lowry) -- the first of the dystopias; great discussion on issues of control, memory, value of life
- All American Boys (Reynolds & Kiely) -- topical/ethics issues: Black Lives Matter
- The Book Thief (Zusak) -- LONG
- The Rumpelstiltskin Problem (Velde) -- while the stories are not "classics", this collection of 6 short stories that are all different versions of the classic fairy tale is great for comparing/discussing point of view; a number of the stories are humorous, which is also a plus

Edited October 1, 2021 by Lori D.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

I am so sorry for you, that you had a teacher who killed the enjoyment of literature, rather than inspiring you with the joy of digging deeper for the buried treasure in literature. 😢 I hope you have been able to recover both an enjoyment and a deeper appreciation for literature.

I never stopped enjoying reading. I mean we didn't read all the literature ever written, so you don't need to feel sorry for me. 

As for the timed essay, I do think it's an important skill to be able to compose something coherent, and decent in a short amount of time. I was taught how to do it. Some things we learn because we want to and some things we learn because it's useful. I think it's OK to have some drudgery in English. Balance out the drudgery we put our kids through to learn long division and triple integrals.

[Lori D.]

21 minutes ago, Clarita said:

I never stopped enjoying reading. I mean we didn't read all the literature ever written, so you don't need to feel sorry for me. 

As for the timed essay, I do think it's an important skill to be able to compose something coherent, and decent in a short amount of time. I was taught how to do it. Some things we learn because we want to and some things we learn because it's useful. I think it's OK to have some drudgery in English. Balance out the drudgery we put our kids through to learn long division and triple integrals.

Hmmm... as I see it, any drudgery in English would come from having to do the revising of a long piece of writing (or multiple revisions). Or grammar diagramming. But not drudgery from literature, unless it's the case of a work that you just don't click with but are required to read for a class... 😉

Glad you didn't lose a love of lit! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Clarita]

Just now, Lori D. said:

But not drudgery from literature, unless it's the case of a work that you just don't click with but are required to read for a class... 😉

That's what I meant but in regards to the writing portion. 

From Gil's perspective this would be if your kid loves writing, then keep making it inspirational, enjoyable and fun. If your kid is kind of or starts to dread it anyways, give them the skills to write quickly. The skill of writing quickly made the whole writing thing less torturous. 

[Lori D.]

2 minutes ago, Clarita said:

That's what I meant but in regards to the writing portion. 

From Gil's perspective this would be if your kid loves writing, then keep making it inspirational, enjoyable and fun. If your kid is kind of or starts to dread it anyways, give them the skills to write quickly. The skill of writing quickly made the whole writing thing less torturous. 

Now I see what you mean. 😉 

Yes, the timed writing is something that helped our 2 writing-phobic DSs learn to think/organize for writing. But we worked our way up from 10 minutes to 25 minutes, and only ever used the OLD SAT persuasive essay prompts. And all 3 of us wrote an essay, and then we critiqued one another's essays. That made the writing less torturous to them, but also gave them those thinking/organizing skills for stating a claim or opinion, and building an argument of support, which transferred over to other writing. It wasn't so much about quickness to make the "torture" (lol) go faster/be done sooner (lol), but it was about making the *process* more natural or automatic so that writing wasn't dreaded, and so that they felt more successful with writing.

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, Gil said:

This is the part where I shudder and contemplate gauging my own eyes out as an "Out" to avoid this.
LOL. At least the poor kids comes by it honestly. 😳

Gil, you do NOT have to do literary analysis to have a well educated kid. In fact, I would argue that there are better ways to do an 'English' class. 1) My first goal was to make my kids excellent writers in things that they would write. And they were never ever going to write literary analysis, so we didn't do it. 2) In addition, I wanted them to be able to analyze complicated writing so that they could parse out complicated arguments that were long chapters, whether that was science, history, philosophy, etc. Given these 2 goals, I filled them with *non-fiction* -- you absolutely do not have to do it with fiction.  So my older boy for example studied how economist informational articles were written, and then wrote one. And he also analyzed how Scientific American agenda articles were written, and then wrote one. In contrast, my younger boy has gone after National Geographic, and creative nonfiction. This is a rhetoric class rather than a literature class, but as far as I am concerned, is way more valuable for my two kids. In addition, if they are motivated, they will learn more. Dragging a kid kicking and screaming through a class, is a recipe for wasting your time.

As for fiction, my older loved reading classics, including things like War and Peace, and read literary analysis of it because he was interested in how the book was put together, but he had no interest in then *writing* literary analysis, and he had no need to learn this skill.  My younger, in contrast, has no interest in reading classics. All he reads is fantasy books.  Instead, he and I attack basically any good nonfiction article of any genre we run across.  How is it effective? What techniques did the author use to persuade me?  How is a hidden thesis then developed over many paragraphs?  How do powerful speech writers use oral language to make their speeches memorable?  And we watch good speakers, and compare and contrast how they effectively give their speeches. We also attack bad writers and bad speakers. What makes them bad?

My goal is to create powerful writers and speakers. Because neither of my kids are going into literary analysis, that is simply not something we bothered with. You homeschool, so do what you think you need to do. And as for when to stop, once my younger boy has mastered the techniques in "they say, I say", then we are done. There are wonderful essays in that book that my son would like the ability to write. So that is our goal. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by lewelma

[kirstenhill]

14 hours ago, lewelma said:

My goal is to create powerful writers and speakers. Because neither of my kids are going into literary analysis, that is simply not something we bothered with. You homeschool, so do what you think you need to do. And as for when to stop, once my younger boy has mastered the techniques in "they say, I say", then we are done. There are wonderful essays in that book that my son would like the ability to write. So that is our goal. 

I'm a little surprised that Lit Analysis is not a required skill for most freshman college English classes! Perhaps my experience was unusual, but my required freshman English class at a large public university was essentially a lit class.  We read several novels and were required to write lit analysis papers for each.  I think a student showing up to that class not having done lit analysis papers in high school would have a steep learning curve.  This was 25+ years ago, so maybe this is less common now for freshman English.

[Clarita]

35 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

This was 25+ years ago, so maybe this is less common now for freshman English.

It probably depends on your major. To get my BSEE I only had to take a technical writing class, we did not read any novels (15 years ago). I also had to take general education classes that had a certain amount of writing in them, but those did not have to be literature classes or English classes. 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, kirstenhill said:

I'm a little surprised that Lit Analysis is not a required skill for most freshman college English classes!

Those classes are usually similar to what's covered in the AP English Language course.  Literary analysis is a niche genre, and not really applicable to other genres (such as the style expected in the sciences or social sciences, or even the other humanities).

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, kirstenhill said:

I'm a little surprised that Lit Analysis is not a required skill for most freshman college English classes!

30 years ago I was required to take a freshman writing class, but there were a lot to choose from. I took Persuasive writing in Biology. My older boy was also required to take a freshman writing class, and he took Ethics for Engineers. I agree with EKS that Literary analysis is a niche genre. The goal of all English classes is to learn to write and to analyse others' writings. But doing that with literature is just one way, and not the best way for a whole lot of kids. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by lewelma

[kirstenhill]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

It probably depends on your major. To get my BSEE I only had to take a technical writing class, we did not read any novels (15 years ago). I also had to take general education classes that had a certain amount of writing in them, but those did not have to be literature classes or English classes. 

And I'm sure it varies by University as well - where I went to school all majors took the same "Freshman English" class, no options offered. I do think there was some variation by instructor, as it didn't seem like all students were reading the same thing.  I haven't had a college student yet, so I haven't had any recent exposure or knowledge of what options are offered elsewhere.  

[Lori D.]

42 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

And I'm sure it varies by University as well - where I went to school all majors took the same "Freshman English" class, no options offered. I do think there was some variation by instructor, as it didn't seem like all students were reading the same thing.  I haven't had a college student yet, so I haven't had any recent exposure or knowledge of what options are offered elsewhere.  

Agree. Freshman English at all of the universities in our state are labeled "Writing 101" and "Writing 102", which everyone takes, regardless of major. The 101 semester focuses on writing different types of short essays, and includes reading some short stories/poems and writing analysis essays in response, while the 102 has the major focus on a research paper, but also includes some short literature readings.

In response to above statements by Kai and Ruth that literary analysis is "niche"... probably so, when taught in certain ways. I like to think think it is NOT niche in the way I teach it. 😉 I treat the literary analysis essays we do in my co-op classes as a form of argumentative writing -- developing a complete thesis statement, and building an argument of support for the thesis in the body of the essay. The thinking and logic that go into that type of writing  are foundational to all types of argumentative writing, and transfer easily to writing nonfiction writing, and for the Humanities and Sciences.

For the actual literature... I work to broaden our scope in how we read/discsuss/write about the literature -- to consider literature's connections to the world, and an author's reactions to history, politics, society through the work -- as well as what a timeless classic can help us understand about the world we currently live in, or provide personal revelations and applications. That doesn't seem very "niche" to me. 😉 

But, YMMV -- I am (obviously, lol) a bit Lit. lover, and a big believer in the value and importance of the Arts, Literature in our lives and in our culture.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Lori D.

[Not_a_Number]

38 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I treat the literary analysis essays we do in my co-op classes as a form of argumentative writing -- developing a complete thesis statement, and building an argument of support for the thesis in the body of the essay. The thinking and logic that go into that type of writing  are foundational to all types of argumentative writing, and transfer easily to writing nonfiction writing, and for the Humanities and Sciences

I mean, sure, but I think it's best that people write essays about things they care about. 

I actually basically like Lit. Analysis, so I have no quarrel with this kind of essay, but I don't think I'd assign it to a student who found the topic deeply boring. I think you can teach those skills in a multitude of ways and there's nothing wrong with not focusing on this specific application of it. 

[prairiewindmomma]

What's required for college writing really varies university by university. For my son's BSEE, he's had to take a freshman writing class which did include a literary analysis paper, technical writing, and a secondary technical writing class. He's also had to do a speech class.

Public school here in 8th requires the reading of 2 complete novels in a year, a variety of short stories and novel selections, and some poetry.  There is a researched paper on a non-fiction topic, some public speaking, and several slide presentations on aspects of literary analysis (theme, tone, setting, etc.) but no literary analysis paper.

The first true literary analysis paper pops up in 10th, and is repeated in 11th and 12th. If you're in AP English, or Honors English after 10th, you write a few of them a year, but it's not a crank them out every month thing. 

My boys both hate writing. Sometimes we do things we hate, but I wouldn't be dying on that mountain in 8th grade.