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Peter Pan, please help1


Carol in Cal.
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Hi Peter Pan,

I see that you replied to me twice; I assume to the question about anxiety and its possible organic components nutritionally.

The replies are gone, and I wonder whether you might be willing to comment here?

Starting this as a thread because others may benefit from it, too.

Thank you, Carol in Cal.

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1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I assume to the question about anxiety and its possible organic components nutritionally.

The replies are gone, and I wonder whether you might be willing to comment here?

It says you can't receive messages, so here's the jist.

Run genetics with cheap 23andme. Run raw data through promothease. It is now searchable. Run through knowyourgenetics.com (free) to learn about methylation.

Look for genes like

VDR=vitamin D receptor

anything methylation (MTHFR, COMT, etc.)

NBPF3=b6 (means you need P5P *not* the methylated form people always brandish about and assume)

SLC308A=zinc transporter. Zinc and copper balance, so getting that balance right affects mitochondrial function, mood, etc.

TPH2=5HTP , the precursor to serotonin and melatonin

That's a start. I put in some links, but really I haven't seen anything perfect. I just look at things and pray over the pile, looking for patterns, things that make sense. You can filter promothease by red/gray/green, so start with the reds and just look each thing up, kwim? They will give you RS numbers and those will be used in studies.

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15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It says you can't receive messages, so here's the jist.

Run genetics with cheap 23andme. Run raw data through promothease. It is now searchable. Run through knowyourgenetics.com (free) to learn about methylation.

Look for genes like

VDR=vitamin D receptor

anything methylation (MTHFR, COMT, etc.)

NBPF3=b6 (means you need P5P *not* the methylated form people always brandish about and assume)

SLC308A=zinc transporter. Zinc and copper balance, so getting that balance right affects mitochondrial function, mood, etc.

TPH2=5HTP , the precursor to serotonin and melatonin

That's a start. I put in some links, but really I haven't seen anything perfect. I just look at things and pray over the pile, looking for patterns, things that make sense. You can filter promothease by red/gray/green, so start with the reds and just look each thing up, kwim? They will give you RS numbers and those will be used in studies.

I don’t really understand this.

Methylation I am familiar with.

Are you associating vitamin D and zinc deficiencies with anxiety?  

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22 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I don’t really understand this.

Do you have genetics on the person? You can download the raw data file from the service you used. You then run it through https://promethease.com which for a small fee will create a searchable file. Your raw data was only the RS numbers (for specific alleles) and the results. (pairs like C,C, etc.). So promethease kicks you out a searchable file that will show gene names and everything that they know (from the databases they search) on those RS numbers for those genes. 

An RS # is for an allele pair from a gene. So you can look at a gene and see if the particular allele (RS#) has been studied for the condition in question. That tells you if it's known to be a significant issue. And the promethease file, which you can save as an html, will also filter for things like red (known to be a problem), grey (not normal but not known) or green (good to go). So first read through your Red RS # and see what pops up, then your greys. 

Anxiety is not one thing, but my point in the other thread is that it's also not completely mysterious and voodoo like the 80s approach to mental health made it sound. I grew up hearing about mental health (because of my father) and the discussions were always so woo, like do you "believe" in schizophrenia as this weird phenomenon or is it sin, is anxiety a sin, blah blah. It's all hogwash. There are concrete knowable processes going on, which is why meds (in general) work and also why they might NOT work for one person or might create all kinds of problems.

Think about it. Zinc (and copper balance) are known to have an impact on anxiety and mental health, but do we even talk about them when we're saying use SSRIs for anxiety?? And that b6 issue (gene nbpf3) is known to be a path into ocd and anxiety (not the only path, a path) and yet you don't see doctors even exploring it. They're just gonna slap firmer doses of another SSRI on. And a TPH2 defect will cause the 5HTP issues that affect serotonin and is easily treatable, but again an SSRI is always the pat answer. It's ridiculous and primitive and uninquisitive. Or think about how many undermethylators we're treating with prescription meds who could take ANYTHING to improve their methyl levels and find their dopamine goes up. There's a controversial thought. 

33 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Are you associating vitamin D and zinc deficiencies with anxiety?  

I only said it was concrete, not simple. If your dopamine is low, then dealing with dopamine improves your anxiety. You have pieces and layers there of all the things that were contributing. 

This is a personal journey someone takes if they want to work on it. You find a layer, work on it, find another layer, work on it. For me the physically based anxiety (not a spiritual problem) has been concrete stuff, not voodoo. I think even saying work on it with CBT is a distraction, because it ignores the fact that it has a physical, treatable basis. But for me it has not been just one thing. The b6 issue is a known cause, but I treated that I found I had another layer that had it's own distinctive set of symptoms. Multiple causes, one name.

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I haven't researched the genetics with SAMe, because I don't tolerate it. However because it's something the body makes, there's logically going to be a set of genes for it. So again, so concrete where you can see the genetic defect making that step in the process not work as well and you can target it with a supplement that jumps right into that process. You just keep doing this, looking at genes and unraveling where the glitches are, how the system balances, what might help.

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17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It says you can't receive messages, so here's the jist.

Run genetics with cheap 23andme. Run raw data through promothease. It is now searchable. Run through knowyourgenetics.com (free) to learn about methylation.

Look for genes like

VDR=vitamin D receptor

anything methylation (MTHFR, COMT, etc.)

NBPF3=b6 (means you need P5P *not* the methylated form people always brandish about and assume)

SLC308A=zinc transporter. Zinc and copper balance, so getting that balance right affects mitochondrial function, mood, etc.

TPH2=5HTP , the precursor to serotonin and melatonin

That's a start. I put in some links, but really I haven't seen anything perfect. I just look at things and pray over the pile, looking for patterns, things that make sense. You can filter promothease by red/gray/green, so start with the reds and just look each thing up, kwim? They will give you RS numbers and those will be used in studies.

Not Carol, but couldn't you just move here, be my tea/coffee friend, and then I could pick your brain itty bitty part by itty bitty part?

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2 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

come to GA

I was just really close to there!

2 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

be my tea/coffee friend

I would love to have tea with you someday. You don't happen to live near a cruise port do you? 😄 

No I feel bad even answering threads like this, because then people say it's too hard, it can't work, blah blah. Thing one, I didn't do this all at once. I just peeled away things one at a time. Two, I let a lot of other things slide. Three, I really needed answers. Ds is a pretty hot mess, so it was either find something or put him on some pretty strong stuff. Our solutions are not perfect, but they're at least intriguing. 

Most of what is being sold as "genetic testing for mental health" is way too linear and simplistic, with these sort of trite answers (up/down, yes/no/maybe) to something that is much more complex, a system of interactions. You cannot reduce a system (which I don't even understand, mercy) to one piece that you pull out on the side and go OH YEAH THAT WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING. Obviously that won't work. 

I just have no idea why the people who ought to be engaging in these conversations (doctors prescribing stuff) aren't even close to wanting to have the conversations. They just look at you with blank eyes and have no clue. To me I'm like come on, I didn't say some strange herb from another country, kwim? All I said was the name of a chemical step in a process you're supposed to understand and that you're claiming to treat and you have NO CLUE???

So then if you have more time to blow and are that interested, you can use your 23andme raw data to work backward on any genetics testing you've seen one elsewhere. You get one of their sample reports and they will usually list in the footnotes what RS # they were looking at for each thing. So then you just see if your raw data (which you can search via the txt file or the promethease file) has it. It's literally that easy. THAT is when you realize how paltry the stuff was they were looking at and drawing grand conclusions from. A fair chunk of it will be total asides about metabolism rate and junk, which is useful for dosing meds but not for actually sorting anything out. 

What I like to see, and this is just me, is some research confirmation. The 23andme RS numbers are there because that data (ahem) gets sold. We all know it, so it's not rocket science. So most of the time when I look up a study, I can find maybe ½ of the genes in my 23andme data. Don't quote me on that, but I'm saying it's there, lots of good potentially useful stuff HIDDEN in your 23andme raw data files. I guess if we were phd biochemists we'd know what we were looking at, lol. 

I've also found genetics studies on dyslexia btw and some of those genes were in the 23andme files. What 23andme DOESN'T give you is the trickier stuff like duplications, deletions, etc. There's more complicated stuff and you're not seeing it. But all I needed was *something* I could try, something that made sense. 

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Ok, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence or general science knowledge, but I will remind you that there are 4 options for the slots (a/g,c/t) and that a report could *flip* them from your raw data. So like if your raw data says CC and promethease or something else you're looking at says TT, they were just looking at the other side. At least that's the way I understand it. Threw me for a loop when it first happened. 

But other than that, just have fun. Use the search box on promethease and see what turns up. I tend to write to process, so I would do things like writing down EVERY GENE name that was red or that turned up for a search term to see if I started to notice patterns. A gene might affect lots of things, so you might notice this pattern of disruption in the gene and your pattern of irl symptoms. Then I knew that was a gene to dig in on. The searching for the promethease file searches not only the name fields but the whole data, so you see more complicated things like studies where genes connected. They do complicated things like one RS on some other gene was predictive of x result on a gene they didn't run, etc. So if I saw a gene appearing a lot and it was RED I wanted to dig in on what that did. That's how I found stuff, just complete idiotic sleuthing and trial/error. And every so often I go back and do it some more.

I did have a funny moment where I was like why does my dd have the genes for male pattern baldness? Eventually I figured out I had the files mislabeled. 😄 Hahaha

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