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COVID--give up mask or not--input WWYD?


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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I'm personally also very worried about long-term damage. I'm not only worried about death. And how many kids have been hospitalized for COVID over the pandemic? 

or developed new onset type 1 diabetes, or celiac, or other autoimmune issues. 

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1 minute ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

It is entirely possible that both the expert who supplied the testimony that pointed out PCR problems  *and* Wakefield have at times acted improperly at times.   No need for the, "Oh ya, well look what he did." deflection technique.   I think that the PCR science was faulty in Wakefield's work and I think it's faulty now.  That's called consistency.  

Your use of language like "malarkey", and "disinformation", won't persuade me from examining what is out there to the best of my ability.   It's a very shallow attempt at influencing people through emotion.  Really bottom of the barrel type behavior.  I feel bad for the people who let you have any power over their views.  

Not a "deflection technique" (on my part anyway).

Wakefield's fraud had zero to do with PCR science and everything to do with his financial, ethical, and scientific improproties.

Yours is the bottom of the barrel type of behavior. You are spreading falsehoods and nonsense.

Bill

 

 

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5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Here is the other things, people don't always have better options, and sometimes need to use the grocery store even if not the best choice. Having those around them mask makes it safe for them, and is courteous, during a time of a pandemic. 

I might agree if there was really no cost to everyone that was asked to wear a mask.  I've suffered several anxiety attacks wearing a mask (that has a real, negative, health outcome to me).   It needs to always be my choice to put that mask on.  

 

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1 minute ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I might agree if there was really no cost to everyone that was asked to wear a mask.  I've suffered several anxiety attacks wearing a mask (that has a real, negative, health outcome to me).   It needs to always be my choice to put that mask on.  

What about the older folks who now need to wear KN95s? From all I've heard, those are much more anxiety-inducing and uncomfortable than cloth or surgical masks... 

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8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm personally also very worried about long-term damage. I'm not only worried about death. And how many kids have been hospitalized for COVID over the pandemic? 

I have long term concerns too, but have long term concerns about the vaccine for the same reasons as the wild virus.  I've been reading papers out there about the spike protein every chance I get.  

At this point in time,  because the vaccines are non-neutralizing, I see the risk of everyone eventually getting Covid as highly probable no matter what.  Natural infection seems to confer robust immunity so I take solace in that.   Maybe not if they can come up with a better vaccine - I know there are some in the works, but only time will tell on that front.  It's also been really tough to sort out what's truly happening with some of the potential early treatments (for all sorts of reasons and with all involved) but I really hope some great early treatments become available soon. 

I try to focus on what I can do for our family (diet, exercise, daily sunshine/Vit D, positive social life) that will help mitigate all kinds of risk.  Grappling with what I do have control over does two things - 1.  improves our chances of not having bad outcomes for covid and other disease, 2.  reduces the amount of time I stew over things I can't control.  

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40 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

What about the older folks who now need to wear KN95s? From all I've heard, those are much more anxiety-inducing and uncomfortable than cloth or surgical masks... 

We could go round and round and round about who has to do what for other people and try to figure out who has to bear which burdens and we'll never get anywhere.  This is why a more simple principle, take precautions to protect yourself, is the equal solution.  

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5 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

This is why a more simple principle, take precautions to protect yourself, is the equal solution.  

How could that possibly be equal when some people are more at risk? 

 

14 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I have long term concerns too, but have long term concerns about the vaccine for the same reasons as the wild virus.  I've been reading papers out there about the spike protein every chance I get.  

Except there's actually evidence of long-term harm for the virus. And it has the spike protein itself. 

 

14 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

At this point in time,  because the vaccines are non-neutralizing, I see the risk of everyone eventually getting Covid as highly probable no matter what. 

I expect so, but depending on whether one's vaccinated, the virus will get to fewer organs in one's body. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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14 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I try to focus on what I can do for our family (diet, exercise, daily sunshine/Vit D, positive social life) that will help mitigate all kinds of risk.  Grappling with what I do have control over does two things - 1.  improves our chances of not having bad outcomes for covid and other disease, 2.  reduces the amount of time I stew over things I can't control.  

You can control this one. You can get vaccinated, and you will vastly reduce the chance of getting severely sick from COVID. That's the best thing you can do to control your risks. 

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2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure, but not for the kids 😛 . You can't get toddlers to consistently mask. 

For two and up: https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2021/09/masks-now-required-at-child-care-and-day-care-centers-in-new-york.html

Kids may not do it perfectly, but they do it better than a lot of adults in my experience. My youngest was only 2 when this started and it only took a few practice sessions to make mask wearing a non event. 

 

2 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

We do need to see human faces. 

Grocery stores, etc. are the wild west anyway.  I've always assumed I'm taking an illness risk going grocery shopping, at least during the months of the year that respiratory illnesses are going around.  There is always someone with a coughing, snotty, kid - and sometimes several adults.  People who really need protection need to apply what is available to protect themselves in those situations because taking care of oneself will always be the more reliable route.  

Are you trying to argue that catching Covid is the same risk factor as catching a cold or even the flu? We can’t have a serious discussion, if so.

I also don’t know who is masking to the point they  never seen human faces. We see them all day long at home or on FaceTime with friends and family and on TV and at the park etc., etc.

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Here's the stat: 

In 2019, 608 child passengers age 12 and younger died in motor vehicle crashes and more than 91,000 were injured. Of the children 12 and younger who died in a crash (for whom restraint use was known), 38% were not buckled up.

That's for the US. I don't know the exact statistics for COVID pediatric deaths under 12... do you? 

As of September 23, the US has recorded 498 pediatric Covid deaths 😞

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One thing that I will have to make a decision on is how to handle my studio once vaccination is available for 5+. My studio goes down to age 3. I have been clear that I am requiring masks until vaccination is available and sufficient time has passed to allow everyone to be vsccinated if they choose.  My teens were OK with that this summer since most came with younger siblings, and parents generally were as well. 

 

But IF vaccination for kids is available by Halloween, which would be awesome, and rates drop enough that the local mandate is dropped, then I'm kind of stuck in a position where if I drop masking for everyone, it seems like I am saying my preschoolers don't matter, but if I require it for everyone, it would be requiring it when almost no one actually falls into that category-of four preschoolers I have currently, two are already 5, and one will turn 5 in October. 

 

I would really like to say that masks are required if you're not vaccinated, but I doubt I would be allowed to ask.

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7 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

One thing that I will have to make a decision on is how to handle my studio once vaccination is available for 5+. My studio goes down to age 3. I have been clear that I am requiring masks until vaccination is available and sufficient time has passed to allow everyone to be vsccinated if they choose.  My teens were OK with that this summer since most came with younger siblings, and parents generally were as well. 

 

But IF vaccination for kids is available by Halloween, which would be awesome, and rates drop enough that the local mandate is dropped, then I'm kind of stuck in a position where if I drop masking for everyone, it seems like I am saying my preschoolers don't matter, but if I require it for everyone, it would be requiring it when almost no one actually falls into that category-of four preschoolers I have currently, two are already 5, and one will turn 5 in October. 

 

I would really like to say that masks are required if you're not vaccinated, but I doubt I would be allowed to ask.

Have a day dedicated to the preschoolers-or a morning at least-so the air is fresh for them.  Require masks for them.  Anyone who is older and wishes to attend on the "mask day" may do so as well if they mask.  That allows anyone who can't be vaccinated to keep themselves safe without long explanations.

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3 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

We do need to see human faces. 

Do you wear sunglasses? Do your friends wear sunglasses?

I never see this discussed about sunglasses, just masks. Personally, I find it MUCH harder to identify people I know WELL who are wearing sunglasses than I do people I barely know who are wearing masks (whether or not I've ever seen them maskless). I recognized someone the other day who was wearing a mask and reading glasses, and she wasn't looking at me when I entered the room. She immediately looked familiar, and I've met her only once (she was masked and not wearing reading glasses when I met her). I usually do NOT recognize people I know well when I see them in sunglasses--like, I literally have to work hard at something like a family picnic to narrow down who the heck they are if they are wearing sunglasses. 

I realize I am probably on the extreme end of not recognizing people in sunglasses, but they are at least as problematic as masks when it comes to reading people's expressions, etc., and NO ONE complains about people wearing sunglasses.

Edited by kbutton
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5 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Do you wear sunglasses? Do your friends wear sunglasses?

I never see this discussed about sunglasses, just masks. Personally, I find it MUCH harder to identify people I know WELL who are wearing sunglasses than I do people I barely know who are wearing masks (whether or not I've ever seen them maskless). I recognized someone the other day who was wearing a mask and reading glasses, and she wasn't looking at me when I entered the room. She immediately looked familiar, and I've met her only once (she was masked and not wearing reading glasses when I met her). I usually do NOT recognize people I know well when I see them in sunglasses--like, I literally have to work hard at something like a family picnic to narrow down who the heck they are if they are wearing sunglasses. 

I realize I am probably on the extreme end of not recognizing people in sunglasses, but they are at least as problematic as masks when it comes to reading people's expressions, etc., and NO ONE complains about people wearing sunglasses.

And, of course, we are seeing at least half of someone’s face when they are masked. I’d argue a persons eyes reveal much more than their nose, chin or mouth does. 

This “argument” reminds me of a story I saw recently (no link—probably either a news site or Reddit) of a woman complaining about how her god intends for people to have uncovered faces or some variation, *while* she was wearing glasses. Lol. 

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2 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

At this point in time,  because the vaccines are non-neutralizing, I see the risk of everyone eventually getting Covid as highly probable no matter what.  Natural infection seems to confer robust immunity so I take solace in that.   Maybe not if they can come up with a better vaccine - I know there are some in the works, but only time will tell on that front.  It's also been really tough to sort out what's truly happening with some of the potential early treatments (for all sorts of reasons and with all involved) but I really hope some great early treatments become available soon. 

Tell that to the ICU nurses that I worked with in East Texas who had Wuhan Covid, then turned around a few months later and had Alpha (British) Covid because they didn't get vaccinated. If they didn't change their tune and get vaccinated, it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up getting Delta as well. Robust natural immunity is not my experience at all. And that's if you make it to live to tell the tale the first time (luckily, they were in their 20s). Nice selection bias there. Didn't work out too well for the otherwise completely healthy full bird Colonel that just died this weekend, leaving behind 5 kids under the age of 14. Guess he won't get any of that robust immunity.  

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3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I must live in a neighborhood of geniuses. Somehow they still greet me by name when I am masked in the store, the pharmacy, the doctor’s office…

Speaking of doctor’s offices, it’s amazing isn’t it that surgeons and operating staff somehow know who each other are in the operating room…. 

Even my psych patients with schizophrenia still seem to manage. It's a miracle!!

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19 minutes ago, MEmama said:

This “argument” reminds me of a story I saw recently (no link—probably either a news site or Reddit) of a woman complaining about how her god intends for people to have uncovered faces or some variation, *while* she was wearing glasses. Lol. 

I saw that video, lol. She said if God wanted us to cover our faces, He would have made us that way. According to that argument, she should have attended the school board meeting naked.

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2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I saw that video, lol. She said if God wanted us to cover our faces, He would have made us that way. According to that argument, she should have attended the school board meeting naked.

Yes! That was the one. 

Poor, neglected irony, understood by so few. Lol
 

 

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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

Tell that to the ICU nurses that I worked with in East Texas who had Wuhan Covid, then turned around a few months later and had Alpha (British) Covid because they didn't get vaccinated. If they didn't change their tune and get vaccinated, it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up getting Delta as well. Robust natural immunity is not my experience at all. And that's if you make it to live to tell the tale the first time (luckily, they were in their 20s). Nice selection bias there. Didn't work out too well for the otherwise completely healthy full bird Colonel that just died this weekend, leaving behind 5 kids under the age of 14. Guess he won't get any of that robust immunity.  

I don't get it. Why not get whatever immunity you can from the vax, and then if you get Covid anyway, let your immune system help out?

 Sorry, I meant to quote @ChickaDeeDeeDee

Edited by Kanin
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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

Tell that to the ICU nurses that I worked with in East Texas who had Wuhan Covid, then turned around a few months later and had Alpha (British) Covid because they didn't get vaccinated. If they didn't change their tune and get vaccinated, it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up getting Delta as well. Robust natural immunity is not my experience at all. And that's if you make it to live to tell the tale the first time (luckily, they were in their 20s). Nice selection bias there. Didn't work out too well for the otherwise completely healthy full bird Colonel that just died this weekend, leaving behind 5 kids under the age of 14. Guess he won't get any of that robust immunity.  

That's disappointing 😕 . The study out of Israel made natural immunity seem relatively robust, but I don't remember if that covered a period of two different waves. 

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6 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

If vaccines don't eliminate transmissibility (which they don't seem to), then I don't see the logic on requiring vaccines.

Your logic is just astounding. Let's try to apply to other things. 

"Since stoplights don't eliminate car crashes, let's not have stoplights at intersections." 

"Since laws about toxic chemicals don't remove all toxic chemicals entirely, let's not have laws about toxic chemicals." 

"Since sometimes sex abusers wind up working in schools anyway, let's stop worrying about child abusers working in schools." 

Yes? Good? 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

Tell that to the ICU nurses that I worked with in East Texas who had Wuhan Covid, then turned around a few months later and had Alpha (British) Covid because they didn't get vaccinated. If they didn't change their tune and get vaccinated, it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up getting Delta as well. Robust natural immunity is not my experience at all. And that's if you make it to live to tell the tale the first time (luckily, they were in their 20s). Nice selection bias there. Didn't work out too well for the otherwise completely healthy full bird Colonel that just died this weekend, leaving behind 5 kids under the age of 14. Guess he won't get any of that robust immunity.  

I have pretty good reason to be skeptical of natural immunity…but also, I fully expect to get Covid a third time despite vaccines because I work in a cesspool of Covid in the back of the ambulance.   But all evidence says I won’t be as sick.

I actually had bilateral pneumonia again this week, but tested negative twice for Covid.  It looks like my lungs have never fully recovered from my April 2020 bout of Covid pneumonia and I’ll likely be more likely to get pneumonia now.  I’m not even 40 and my lungs are damaged.
 

It’s just not worth the risk of serious, long term complications now that there is a vaccine available.  

Edited by Mrs Tiggywinkle
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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's under 18, though. The comparable statistic would be under 12. There seem to be 174 from 0 to 4, so I suppose one could estimate like 300? 

Sorry, I didn't read carefully enough that you were loooking for the number under 12. Clearly the number is not dwarfed by the number of car accident deaths to the degree that was suggested by the other poster (1:10,000). Seems we're looking at something more on the order of 1:2-3 (and most people go to significant lengths to protect their kids in the event of a car accident--they don't dismiss it as not worth it because there were less than 700 kids killed in car accidents the previous year).

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26 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

 It looks like my lungs have never fully recovered from my April 2020 bout of Covid pneumonia and I’ll likely be more likely to get pneumonia now.  I’m not even 40 and my lungs are damaged.

Have you thought about HBOT? I heard (and this is just word of mouth) that one of the big hospitals in our state (but not in our city) is recommending HBOT for post covid. I'm assuming they have an HBOT clinic so they can recommend it. Around here there's so much gatekeeping of HBOT, which is really crazy. Healing the lungs by breathing oxygen would be an obvious use. I've had recurrent pneumonia from my asthma so I was particularly keen on that bonus effect. You'd need to get someone to write the scrip if you want coverage, and of course it takes time.

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Have you thought about HBOT? I heard (and this is just word of mouth) that one of the big hospitals in our state (but not in our city) is recommending HBOT for post covid. I'm assuming they have an HBOT clinic so they can recommend it. Around here there's so much gatekeeping of HBOT, which is really crazy. Healing the lungs by breathing oxygen would be an obvious use. I've had recurrent pneumonia from my asthma so I was particularly keen on that bonus effect. You'd need to get someone to write the scrip if you want coverage, and of course it takes time.

I’ve never heard of this…off to google.

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

If vaccines don't eliminate transmissibility (which they don't seem to), then I don't see the logic on requiring vaccines.

Because they drastically REDUCE transmission. Requiring people to be sober when driving doesn't eliminate accidents, it reduces them. 

Edited by ktgrok
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10 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I suspect as time goes on we’re going to find more and more people with long term effects.  I still have a serious brain fog and can’t taste or smell.  It’s been 11 months.

Oooh. I didn't realize you still had that. I remembered that you'd improved a lot, but I take it you aren't "back to normal," whatever that means? 

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3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I have pretty good reason to be skeptical of natural immunity…but also, I fully expect to get Covid a third time despite vaccines because I work in a cesspool of Covid in the back of the ambulance.   But all evidence says I won’t be as sick.

I actually had bilateral pneumonia again this week, but tested negative twice for Covid.  It looks like my lungs have never fully recovered from my April 2020 bout of Covid pneumonia and I’ll likely be more likely to get pneumonia now.  I’m not even 40 and my lungs are damaged.
 

It’s just not worth the risk of serious, long term complications now that there is a vaccine available.  

I am truly very sorry. It is terribly difficult to avoid when you have so many repeat exposures. You are very brave, and I thank you so much for everything that you have done in EMS throughout the pandemic. You're a shero.

I haven't been able to taste salty or sweet for over two weeks, but have tested negative for Covid three times in the same period. So, I don't know if I had it and didn't know when my immunity waned and this is some residual effect. It just seems too coincidental a symptom to not be Covid-related. I often triage (mostly homeless/indigent) patients in our emergency psych unit and have had several known exposures over the past year, between working in the ICU and the county psych hospital, so I have no way to know for sure that I've remained negative (although no one in my home has ever tested positive, and we have always tested after known exposures).

I took a few weeks off from work to get us moved, get the boys settled into the new school year, and to do my interviews for new grad ICU residencies. When I went back yesterday, I found out that we had to shut down one of the units at the psych hospital due to the combo of nursing shortages + nurses quitting over the vaccine mandate deadline, and that's in San Diego. We were already running very short staffed, so just a few people leaving was enough to shut down an entire unit. So, our remaining units are now jammed with patients, which has capped us all and made it a more chaotic environment for patients. It's very disappointing that nurses would behave this way. So, I'm thankful they're leaving. They don't belong in patient care if they don't understand science and care so little about the impact their actions have on our extremely vulnerable patients. 

And because of the shortages, I've had to stay late the last 3 shifts I've worked because I'm always capped and can't get everything done in a 12.5 hour shift. Almost every nurse is leaving late. And too many patients in a locked facility = more codes, more restraints, more seclusion, more IM injections, more intensive paperwork for nurses because now the patient becomes a 1 to 1, so all my other patients get dumped on the other nurses who are already capped and are now over state-mandated ratios. Think of too many rats in a cage. We need to spread our patients out for safety (theirs and ours). It's really sh*tty what they've done to our patients (and to us). People need to understand that these vax refusers are impacting all aspects of healthcare.

One of the cries for help from nurse Twitter today:

"Very unstable! Attempted to prone and sats dropped to 61. One facility told us that they had a 26 year old who is 25 weeks pregnant on their list."

Meanwhile, antivaxers think they can DIY ECMO on themselves off Amazon. Yeah, this is going to be lit!

 

 

Edited by SeaConquest
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30 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I am truly very sorry. It is terribly difficult to avoid when you have so many repeat exposures. You are very brave, and I thank you so much for everything that you have done in EMS throughout the pandemic. You're a shero.

I haven't been able to taste salty or sweet for over two weeks, but have tested negative for Covid three times in the same period. So, I don't know if I had it and didn't know when my immunity waned and this is some residual effect. It just seems too coincidental a symptom to not be Covid-related. I often triage (mostly homeless/indigent) patients in our emergency psych unit and have had several known exposures over the past year, between working in the ICU and the county psych hospital, so I have no way to know for sure that I've remained negative (although no one in my home has ever tested positive, and we have always tested after known exposures).

I took a few weeks off from work to get us moved, get the boys settled into the new school year, and to do my interviews for new grad ICU residencies. When I went back yesterday, I found out that we had to shut down one of the units at the psych hospital due to the combo of nursing shortages + nurses quitting over the vaccine mandate deadline, and that's in San Diego. We were already running very short staffed, so just a few people leaving was enough to shut down an entire unit. So, our remaining units are now jammed with patients, which has capped us all and made it a more chaotic environment for patients. It's very disappointing that nurses would behave this way. So, I'm thankful they're leaving. They don't belong in patient care if they don't understand science and care so little about the impact their actions have on our extremely vulnerable patients. 

And because of the shortages, I've had to stay late the last 3 shifts I've worked because I'm always capped and can't get everything done in a 12.5 hour shift. Almost every nurse is leaving late. And too many patients in a locked facility = more codes, more restraints, more seclusion, more IM injections, more intensive paperwork for nurses because now the patient becomes a 1 to 1, so all my other patients get dumped on the other nurses who are already capped and are now over state-mandated ratios. Think of too many rats in a cage. We need to spread our patients out for safety (theirs and ours). It's really sh*tty what they've done to our patients (and to us). People need to understand that these vax refusers are impacting all aspects of healthcare.

One of the cries for help from nurse Twitter today:

"Very unstable! Attempted to prone and sats dropped to 61. One facility told us that they had a 26 year old who is 25 weeks pregnant on their list."

Meanwhile, antivaxers think they can DIY ECMO on themselves off Amazon. Yeah, this is going to be lit!

 

 

I ...wow....um..if you don't know that home ECMO isn't a DIY thing, you don't know enough to decide not to vaccinate. Dear heavens. 

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40 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I ...wow....um..if you don't know that home ECMO isn't a DIY thing, you don't know enough to decide not to vaccinate. Dear heavens. 

Have a spare $152,000 for one?  Of course it requires nurses with specialized training to operate, but why quibble over such small details?  Not to mention that if you need one, you probably won't be conscious, let alone able to hook yourself up. . .

I know that I'm preaching to the choir here but the mental gymnastics involved in this sort of thing is truly mind boggling. 

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
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3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's under 18, though. The comparable statistic would be under 12. There seem to be 174 from 0 to 4, so I suppose one could estimate like 300? 

The numbers are highest for ages 0 to 4 actually.  Then they go up again as kids get closer to 18.  The numbers for elementary aged kids are very low.

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As an aside, if I can make a special request. If I'm taking horse anything, please let it be some IV Special K (funny Twitter thread about Ketamine, a horse tranquilizer -- also used in the ICU for sedation and pain relief):

 

Edited by SeaConquest
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4 hours ago, Kanin said:

I don't get it. Why not get whatever immunity you can from the vax, and then if you get Covid anyway, let your immune system help out?

 

As I would have replied in probably 3rd grade... Duh!

 

 

I could say more, but I'm tired... I have long term side effects from tx that leave me permanently immune compromised. I could have not treated my cancer, hell it was stage 1A, barely any symptoms - let my body just fight it out, right-  but w/out tx I'd be dead now. I worry about people not considering the effects of long covid, the effects of hospitalization w/Covid and the long term effects of that. I worry about an unvaccinated acquaintance who was on a ventilator with Covid for 4 weeks and may have a host of long-term issues. They're still in the hospital. I hear all about God protecting people and seeing them through Covid, well what about God working through scientists and doctors? 

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I believe the best way to convince people to get vaccinated is to tell stories about those we know in the hospital or with Long Covid.  We can argue on this board about mask efficiency, belittle those who make different choices, bemoan the stress placed on medical staff- but none of those things will convince someone to change their mind.  Hearing a story about a person you know, a family member, a church family- who are suffering just might be the trigger needed for someone to go get the shot.  

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, BusyMom5 said:

I believe the best way to convince people to get vaccinated is to tell stories about those we know in the hospital or with Long Covid.  We can argue on this board about mask efficiency, belittle those who make different choices, bemoan the stress placed on medical staff- but none of those things will convince someone to change their mind.  Hearing a story about a person you know, a family member, a church family- who are suffering just might be the trigger needed for someone to go get the shot.  

Yes, as long as they hear those stories. But I don't think our online stories do much of anything, and it seems like those stories have become very hush-hush in some communities, whereas any issues at all with the vaccines get amplified... never mind all the out-and-out lies people tell. 

I think there's a threshold effect here, too. As long as the social pressure is uniformly against the vaccines, it's very hard to change minds. It's hard to know what causes that uniformity to break... I'm sure it's a mix of things, plus it's simply a very chaotic system to begin with. 

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First, I f*ckin’ LOVE me some Special K (professionally - ahem; personally, when my partner gave it to me when I messed up my foot/ankle on duty, I found my spirit animal). We use it in myriad situations. 

Second, I recently transported a 30 yo who was 22 weeks pregnant. I put her on BiPAP as her room air sat was ~30%. She went on ECMO soon after she went up to ICU. 

Edited by brehon
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50 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

As an aside, if I can make a special request. If I'm taking horse anything, please let it be some IV Special K (funny Twitter thread about Ketamine, a horse tranquilizer -- also used in the ICU for sedation and pain relief):

 

This is an off topic qu, but does ketamine work on people who don't get much effect from something like morphine? Like, can you use it for pain? 

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2 minutes ago, brehon said:

First, I f*ckin’ LOVE me some Special K (professionally - ahem; personally, when my partner gave it to me when I messed up my foot/ankle on duty, I found my spirit animal). We use in myriad situations. 

Second, I recently transported a 30 yo who was 22 weeks pregnant. I put her on BiPAP as her room air sat was ~30%. She went on ECMO soon after she went up to ICU. 

Girl, you and me both. The semester that I did Special K in Moscow, I had ZERO depression, straight As, was in the best shape of my life, and made lifelong friends going to clubs and partying all the time. And dang, I spoke great Russian when I lost all of my self-critical inhibition. Love me some Special K. That was way before we had studies showing that it had clinical uses with depression. I've never had any since that semester, but man, those were some good times. 🙂  

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Just now, Melissa Louise said:

This is an off topic qu, but does ketamine work on people who don't get much effect from something like morphine? Like, can you use it for pain? 

Yes. But, like anything else. It's always trial and error. It's not an opiate. It's a hallucinogenic and dissociative anesthetic. 

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15 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Yes. But, like anything else. It's always trial and error. It's not an opiate. It's a hallucinogenic and dissociative anesthetic. 

That’s really interesting. I’m allergic to most (all?) pain meds, and sometimes wonder if there will be any options for me, should I need them. Sounds like if things get bad (I hope not!) there could be some more options out there. Cool.

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19 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Yes. But, like anything else. It's always trial and error. It's not an opiate. It's a hallucinogenic and dissociative anesthetic. 

And not without risk, either.  We use it for sedation.  Laryngospasm is no joke.

ETA Emergence reactions aren't funny either.

 

Edited by wathe
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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

As an aside, if I can make a special request. If I'm taking horse anything, please let it be some IV Special K (funny Twitter thread about Ketamine, a horse tranquilizer -- also used in the ICU for sedation and pain relief):

 

I can say that after seeing some cats that had bad trips on it in vet clinics, I NEVER want that stuff. And the twitter thread seemed the same - some REALLY like it, but those that don't are scary and fighting. Seeing how a few cats reacted to it was TERRIFYING - they were fighting non existant enemies in the cage, etc. Was crazy. 

that said, I'm ridiculously happy on nitrous the few times I've had it. And love me some vicodin. Enough that it is good that i know the tylenol in it is dangerous in larger amounts, or I might be tempted to take it more, lol. Oh, and Nucynta...that stuff is fantastic. Both make me very happy and warm and fuzzy inside. And Nucynta doesn't make me itchy like Vicodin does. But they both give me insomnia where I drift in and out of a light sleep, no deep sleep at all. But..I don't care, either, lol. 

So yeah, opiods yes, hallucinogenic, nope. 

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1 minute ago, Spryte said:

That’s really interesting. I’m allergic to most (all?) pain meds, and sometimes wonder if there will be any options for me, should I need them. Sounds like if things get bad (I hope not!) there could be some more options out there. Cool.

I'm curious now, too.   I don't do well with morphine or sedation.   

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