COVID--give up mask or not--input WWYD?

[SeaConquest]

I just don't understand this whole concept that there will never be life without Covid again. There is life without Measles again. There is life without Polio again. There would likely be life without influenza again if people actually got vaccinated. Covid is no different. I know that we are all frustrated and exhausted, but that is no reason to throw our hands up and just let this thing run wild. Please, do your part to end this pandemic: vax and mask. If not for yourselves and your family, then for the exhausted healthcare workers who have to treat the unvaxed people to which your healthy kids spread this virus.

Are there breakthrough infections? Of course. No one has ever said that vaccines were 100% or that people wouldn't need to get periodic boosters. Big whoop. I just got my 3rd shot and have nothing but a sore arm and a ton of gratitude to show for it. Are masks perfect protection? Obviously not. And we all know that the type of mask and how effectively/consistently it is worn matters. But, lordy. Healthcare workers are not asking Americans to storm the beaches of Normandy here. Please, just do two simple things so that we don't have to keep loading mothers and fathers and CHILDREN into bodybags day after day after day. Because, I assure you, you think it won't be your friends or neighbors or loved ones that this effects. Everyone thinks that until it is too late. 1 in 500 Americans is dead already. How many more? Mask and vax. For the love of G-d, I beg you.  

Edited September 26, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Roadrunner]

On 9/24/2021 at 7:01 PM, Spryte said:

Yes, my faith in masks has skyrocketed recently. I spent 7 hours indoors within ten feet, sometimes less, of an unmasked coughing/vomiting Covid positive person, then another few hours with her across a hall from me with a nebulizer running, no door. Obviously she could not mask, poor woman. But I kept my well fitted N95 on, didn’t touch my eyes, and no Covid. 

Oh yes. Properly fitted N 95 is a miracle worker. I have a box of them for crowded areas just in case we get another big wave. 
But the surgical masks? Mostly useless. 

[KSera]

46 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Oh yes. Properly fitted N 95 is a miracle worker. I have a box of them for crowded areas just in case we get another big wave. 
But the surgical masks? Mostly useless. 

I don’t use surgical masks, but did you see @wathe’s post above about HCW using only surgical masks? They don’t work as well as N95, for sure, but seem to keep the majority of people from becoming infected. I can’t recall the estimates of their protection, but recall a big range because it depends how they’re worn. I want to say they can vary something like 25-75% filtration. If you knot and tuck the sides, that helps a lot. Or wear a mask fitter over them. Or just get better masks like KF94s 😊. 

[wathe]

38 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Oh yes. Properly fitted N 95 is a miracle worker. I have a box of them for crowded areas just in case we get another big wave. 
But the surgical masks? Mostly useless. 

I hear this all the time.  It simply isn't true.  The entire Canadian healthcare system is a testament to that.  We wear these at work, even when caring for covid patients.  Worker covid rates are far lower that our community's, despite much higher exposure risk.  "Surgical"* masks aren't perfect, and they are inferior to a fit-tested n95, but they do work.  They certainly aren't useless.

* "Surgical" in quotes, because what we we wear in emerge are pleated disposable ear-loop procedure masks, which are inferior to true surgical masks.  True surgical masks have higher standards water-resistance/splash-resistance and generally have ties instead of earloops, for a more secure fit.  But I think are using "surgical mask" in the generic sense here, not meaning formal surgical masks.

[SeaConquest]

3 minutes ago, wathe said:

I hear this all the time.  It simply isn't true.  The entire Canadian healthcare system is a testament to that.  We wear these at work, even when caring for covid patients.  Worker covid rates are far lower that our community's, despite much higher exposure risk.  "Surgical"* masks aren't perfect, and they are inferior to a fit-tested n95, but they do work.  They certainly aren't useless.

* "Surgical" in quotes, because what we we wear in emerge are pleated disposable ear-loop procedure masks, which are inferior to true surgical masks.  True surgical masks have higher standards water-resistance/splash-resistance and generally have ties instead of earloops, for a more secure fit.  But I think are using "surgical mask" in the generic sense here, not meaning formal surgical masks.

They don't give you all N95s when caring for known Covid+ patients? I agree that procedure masks are not useless (I mean, we use them when caring for patients with neutropenic precautions, for example), but I would not care for a Covid+ patient in one. That's scary, IMO. N95 or a PAPR for me, or I am walking.

[wathe]

31 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don’t use surgical masks, but did you see @wathe’s post above about HCW using only surgical masks? They don’t work as well as N95, for sure, but seem to keep the majority of people from becoming infected. I can’t recall the estimates of their protection, but recall a big range because it depends how they’re worn. I want to say they can vary something like 25-75% filtration. If you knot and tuck the sides, that helps a lot. Or wear a mask fitter over them. Or just get better masks like KF94s 😊. 

The filtration of a surgical mask is comparable to an n95 - Submicron particulate filtration efficiency at 0.1 micron of 95-98%, depending on whether it's a level 1, 2 , 3 surgical mask. (See Government of Canada specs table for PPE).  Surgical masks fabrics filter very, very well.

The problem with surgical masks is the fit - they are sloppy*.  One can partially fix this by wearing it properly:  tie relatively tightly (or knot earloops),  shape to face properly (pull fabric to tuck under chin, press nose wire to shape of face).  Can further ix with a mask brace, or with a well fitting cloth mask over-top.

I see n95's and kn95's and other reapirator-style masks being worn in the community that fit poorly (obvious gaps, or obviously too small or too big) that are definitely not better than a properly worn surgical mask.  Gaps are gaps, and poor fit is poor fit.  n95 is not magic!

ETA Oh, autocorrect..... sloppy, not happy!

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by wathe

[wathe]

5 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

They don't give you all N95s when caring for known Covid+ patients? I agree that procedure masks are not useless (I mean, we use them when caring for patients with neutropenic precautions, for example), but I would not care for a Covid+ patient in one. That's scary, IMO. N95 or a PAPR for me, or I am walking.

Nope.  n95s are only for formal AGMP.   We wish it were different.  

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

They don't give you all N95s when caring for known Covid+ patients? I agree that procedure masks are not useless (I mean, we use them when caring for patients with neutropenic precautions, for example), but I would not care for a Covid+ patient in one. That's scary, IMO. N95 or a PAPR for me, or I am walking.

Yeah, there is a large contingent of Canadian healthcare workers who have been begging for more than procedure masks throughout the pandemic. Canada was very reluctant to acknowledge the airborne nature of Covid, which is thought to be in large part because it would require them to provide better protection for healthcare workers.

 

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, wathe said:

The filtration of a surgical mask is comparable to an n95 - Submicron particulate filtration efficiency at 0.1 micron of 95-98%, depending on whether it's a level 1, 2 , 3 surgical mask. (See Government of Canada specs table for PPE).  Surgical masks fabrics filter very, very well.

The problem with surgical masks is the fit - they are happy.  One can partially fix this by wearing it properly:  tie relatively tightly (or knot earloops),  shape to face properly (pull fabric to tuck under chin, press nose wire to shape of face).  Can further ix with a mask brace, or with a well fitting cloth mask over-top.

Absolutely. I’m talking about an as worn efficacy. The name for that number is skipping my mind at the moment, but I will come back and add it. I see very few people knotting and tucking their procedure masks. I think KF94 and similar masks how much easier to get a snug fit with, as well as some selection bias a lot of people choosing those are likely more conscientious about how they wear their masks in general.

 

[wathe]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Absolutely. I’m talking about an as worn efficacy. The name for that number is skipping my mind at the moment, but I will come back and add it. I see very few people knotting and tucking their procedure masks. I think KF94 and similar masks how much easier to get a snug fit with, as well as some selection bias a lot of people choosing those are likely more conscientious about how they wear their masks in general.

 

Here, one just sees that same kn95 from Costco fitting various people very badly.....

[SeaConquest]

11 minutes ago, wathe said:

The filtration of a surgical mask is comparable to an n95 - Submicron particulate filtration efficiency at 0.1 micron of 95-98%, depending on whether it's a level 1, 2 , 3 surgical mask. (See Government of Canada specs table for PPE).  Surgical masks fabrics filter very, very well.

The problem with surgical masks is the fit - they are happy.  One can partially fix this by wearing it properly:  tie relatively tightly (or knot earloops),  shape to face properly (pull fabric to tuck under chin, press nose wire to shape of face).  Can further ix with a mask brace, or with a well fitting cloth mask over-top.

I see n95's and kn95's and other reapirator-style masks being worn in the community that fit poorly (obvious gaps, or obviously too small or too big) that are definitely not better than a properly worn surgical mask.  Gaps are gaps, and poor fit is poor fit.  n95 is not magic!

 

 

This is definitely true. You need to have an N95 fit tested. And one reason that most people like "surgical masks" (aka procedure masks) is because they generally are wearing them too loosely on their faces. Before we had enough access to N95s, like Wathe describes, it was not uncommon for us to double mask and loop our masks around various hair ties/buttons to try to avoid as many gaps as possible (while still saving our ears from getting all sliced up).

Edited September 26, 2021 by SeaConquest

[wathe]

18 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yeah, there is a large contingent of Canadian healthcare workers who have been begging for more than procedure masks throughout the pandemic. Canada was very reluctant to acknowledge the airborne nature of Covid, which is thought to be in large part because it would require them to provide better protection for healthcare workers.

 

Yes.  

My take on the issue:

1) If we formally acknowledge that covid is airborne and requires airborne precautions (like measles, TB, chickenpox), then we will have to meet airborne IPAC standards when caring for covid and suspected covid (anyone with fever or URI symptoms) patients.  Which would be impossible.  We have only 3 negative pressure rooms in our ED.  I have many more times that number of fever/URI symptom patients in my department all the time, nevermind during covid waves.

2) pleated ear-loopers seem to actually work in healthcare setting to prevent covid transmission.  We have real world data on that now.  So there is no impetus for admins to spend $$ to up grade to N95 for this indication.  

3) N95 are still a relatively scarce resource. We still import most of them.  The first batch of Canadian made n95 weren't delivered until April 2021, and they only make the one style, which doesn't fit everyone.  Before April, we relied entirely on import.  And the USA had an export ban for a long time.  So TPTB are very, very focussed on conservation of supply.

Edited September 26, 2021 by wathe

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, KSera said:

Absolutely. I’m talking about an as worn efficacy. The name for that number is skipping my mind at the moment, but I will come back and add it. I see very few people knotting and tucking their procedure masks. I think KF94 and similar masks how much easier to get a snug fit with, as well as some selection bias a lot of people choosing those are likely more conscientious about how they wear their masks in general.

 

Total Inward Leakage. That’s the term I was thinking of. Most of the mask test you see are just testing how well the media filters, and with the surgical mask, that’s going to perform very well. But it’s how it performs when it’s worn that matters. The Enro mask, which New York Times named the best mask and has been selling so fast that they can’t keep them in stock, does not perform any better than a surgical mask when worn – – around 70%. that’s because wire cutter tested the filter media, which is very good, but that filter media does not go edge to edge and the mask does not form a tight seal around the face so it’s not giving people anything better than  a properly worn surgical/procedure mask. Pretty certain the happy mask would shows similar results, except I believe at least in that case the filter media is sewn edge to edge. It has a wimpy nose wire though, and allows too much leakage.

[wathe]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Total Inward Leakage. That’s the term I was thinking of. Most of the mask test you see are just testing how well the media filters, and with the surgical mask, that’s going to perform very well. But it’s how it performs when it’s worn that matters. The Enro mask, which New York Times named the best mask and has been selling so fast that they can’t keep them in stock, does not perform any better than a surgical mask when worn – – around 70%. that’s because wire cutter tested the filter media, which is very good, but that filter media does not go edge to edge and the mask does not form a tight seal around the face so it’s not giving people anything better than  a properly worn surgical/procedure mask. Pretty certain the happy mask would shows similar results, except I believe at least in that case the filter media is sewn edge to edge. It has a wimpy nose wire though, and allows too much leakage.

You've just summarized my beef with the marketing strategies of Happy Mask, Enro,  and other comparable masks.

[KSera]

16 minutes ago, wathe said:

Here, one just sees that same kn95 from Costco fitting various people very badly.....

Yes. I actually rethought that after posting, because I do see that as well. I know I keep referencing KF94s, but the boat style do fit more people better and I do see those worn properly much more often. I don’t find the cup style N95 or KN95 to be a great fit on most people. In the very beginning my parents were wearing old N95s they had on hand, and they didn’t fit their faces at all. 

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, wathe said:

You've just summarized my beef with the marketing strategies of Happy Mask, Enro,  and other comparable masks.

Yup. Strongly agree. The Enro is made with a separate panel for the chin section, and that panel doesn’t even have any filter media in it at all. And that’s before we even get into the fit. 

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

I don't really consider masks to be preventing living our lives.  I actually feel like a mask is a super easy thing to do so we can live our lives.   Getting long Covid would definitely keep us from living our lives (as would dying).    I do agree this is likely here for a long time (although I think that wouldn't be the case if more people would vaccinate and wear a mask).  My most likely scenario going forward is to get a booster eventually (I'm still not 6 months out), relax in the Spring and Summer, and go back to wearing a mask in high risk situations in the Fall and Winter.  And live my life the way I did before, just in a mask sometimes.  

We are still wearing masks in any indoor group situations, shopping, work, etc.   We have a mask mandate but only for schools.  My business is pretty much a school situation and I require masks for everyone who comes in.   We are in an area with a pretty high vaccination rate and are currently at about 5.5% positivity.  My county is excellent but in NJ, one county pretty much runs into the next and I have students coming from all over including some counties with pretty bad rates of both infection and vaccination.  

My kids are pretty firm on their mask wearing.  They think people who aren't wearing them are being stupid (I am trying to tone them down a little bit but they are typical opinionated teenagers) so feel no pressure to not wear them.    Their dad is 65 years old and obese and they are aware that puts him in a higher risk group.  

This.  I feel like wearing masks when with others indoors is how I get to live my life again, and not just stay home.  I've temporarily switched gyms to a town that had a mask mandate and has more air/less people.  My town starts a mask mandate next week, and if it sticks and numbers go down or even stay steady, I'll likely go back to the more crowded gym in a couple of months as long as the masks stay on (I'd also be fine with just me masking if I knew everyone was vaxxed, but they're not checking).  But with no masks?  I feel I have to stay home.  I'm shopping for groceries in stores, I'm going to church in person again, I'm working out in group situations - but most or all others are also masked.  But more people in masks is what's getting things back to normal, not tossing them aside.

And I'm much more likely to approach a person to talk if they do have a mask on, at least indoors.  No way I'm chit-chatting with someone who's letting it all hang out.

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I just don't understand this whole concept that there will never be life without Covid again. There is life without Measles again. There is life without Polio again. There would likely be life without influenza again if people actually got vaccinated. Covid is no different. I know that we are all frustrated and exhausted, but that is no reason to throw our hands up and just let this thing run wild. Please, do your part to end this pandemic: vax and mask. If not for yourselves and your family, then for the exhausted healthcare workers who have to treat the unvaxed people to which your healthy kids spread this virus.

Are there breakthrough infections? Of course. No one has ever said that vaccines were 100% or that people wouldn't need to get periodic boosters. Big whoop. I just got my 3rd shot and have nothing but a sore arm and a ton of gratitude to show for it. Are masks perfect protection? Obviously not. And we all know that the type of mask and how effectively/consistently it is worn matters. But, lordy. Healthcare workers are not asking Americans to storm the beaches of Normandy here. Please, just do two simple things so that we don't have to keep loading mothers and fathers and CHILDREN into bodybags day after day after day. Because, I assure you, you think it won't be your friends or neighbors or loved ones that this effects. Everyone thinks that until it is too late. 1 in 500 Americans is dead already. How many more? Mask and vax. For the love of G-d, I beg you.  

I am very, very, very, very pro vaccination, but I do not think there will ever be life without covid again, since unlike measles or polio, which were "one and done" with regard to infections, people can get infected more than once.  And even if everyone on the planet were vaccinated, there is a huge reservoir of covid in multiple animal species.  

I'm not denigrating what people are being asked to do.  I think it's important to do them.  But I think it's important to look at likely end games here.  

[Matryoshka]

35 minutes ago, wathe said:

You've just summarized my beef with the marketing strategies of Happy Mask, Enro,  and other comparable masks.

My Happy Mask fits me quite well, especially with the lanyard/ear saver to pull it even tighter.  Way better than a surgical mask or the store-bought K/N90-whatevers I see people wearing that are slipping and loose.   And the filter does go edge to edge, which is one of the many reasons I like it a lot better than the styles with slip-in filters.  Is it perfect, no, probably there's a bit of leak by the nose (but not the sides/under).  But way better than the other options I've tried, and miles better than the loose cotton masks and/or poorly fitting disposables still see a lot of people wearing.

I know HMs don't fit everyone as well as they do me - I say find a mask with a good filter that fits you, and get the best seal you can.  If it's slipping down your nose, it's not the right mask for your face!  And if it fits well, then a better filter is still .... better.   A hospital-grade N95 is also no good if you're not getting a good seal.  And outside of a hospital, I've seen like zero people wearing them with a better seal than I get with my Happy Mask.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Matryoshka

[wathe]

 

7 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

My Happy Mask fits me quite well, especially with the lanyard/ear saver to pull it even tighter.  Way better than a surgical mask or the store-bought K/N90-whatevers I see people wearing that are slipping and loose.   And the filter does go edge to edge, which is one of the many reasons I like it a lot better than the styles with slip-in filters.  Is it perfect, no, probably there's a bit of leak by the nose (but not the sides/under).  But way better than the other options I've tried, and miles better than the loose cotton masks and/or poorly fitting disposables still see a lot of people wearing.

I know HMs don't fit everyone as well as they do me - I say find a mask with a good filter that fits you, and get the best seal you can.  If it's slipping down your nose, it's not the right mask for your face!  And if it fits well, then a better filter is still .... better.   A hospital-grade N95 is also no good if you're not getting a good seal.  And outside of a hospital, I've seen like zero people wearing them with a better seal than I get with my Happy Mask.

HM is a good mask.  But its marketing is misleading, and I think dishonest.

[Terabith]

9 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

My Happy Mask fits me quite well, especially with the lanyard/ear saver to pull it even tighter.  Way better than a surgical mask or the store-bought K/N90-whatevers I see people wearing that are slipping and loose.   And the filter does go edge to edge, which is one of the many reasons I like it a lot better than the styles with slip-in filters.  Is it perfect, no, probably there's a bit of leak by the nose (but not the sides/under).  But way better than the other options I've tried, and miles better than the loose cotton masks and/or poorly fitting disposables still see a lot of people wearing.

I know HMs don't fit everyone as well as they do me - I say find a mask with a good filter that fits you, and get the best seal you can.  If it's slipping down your nose, it's not the right mask for your face!  And if it fits well, then a better filter is still .... better.   A hospital-grade N95 is also no good if you're not getting a good seal.  And outside of a hospital, I've seen like zero people wearing them with a better seal than I get with my Happy Mask.

Yeah, my Happy Mask is by far the mask that fits me the best.  So it's what I wear.  It's the mask I can get the tightest seal on.  My kids actually get the best seal with Enro masks, so they wear them primarily.  Fit has been my main driver for picking masks.  

Everyone is also vaccinated.  

Edited September 26, 2021 by Terabith

[wathe]

(Edited:  I've deleted the image (don't know if I can legally post the image) in my post and will link instead. The graphic I'm talking about shows several mask styles and quoted filtration numbers for them.  Quotes 70% for surgical mask, and 99% for mask being sold by this company.)

Misleading marketing example:

1) The pleated procedure mask pictured, labelled "surgical mask" is not a surgical mask.  They don't know what the word "surgical mask" means

2) The pleated procedure mask pictured's fabric likely does have great filtration efficiency, likely >95% for particle greater than 0.1 micron.  They are all melt-blown polypro.  Most of them have 3 layers.  (I've taken lots apart to find out for myself).  I don't think they tested it - I asked directly and they chose not to answer that part of my query.  Surgical masks definitely filter better than what they've quoted. Nelson Labs quotes standards for surgical masks and they are in the 95% or better range.

3) the product being sold (product to the far right of the graphic) was tested by testing just the filter fabric, not the device as worn.

It is not an apples to apples comparison, and is super misleading.

I was irritated about this enough to inquire to the company about the discrepancies.  

First response (don't know why it's formatting weird):

 I apologize for the delay in responding to your original question! The middle seam in our filter is attached through a fabric welding process, which uses heat and pressure to join the two pieces of fabric. This creates a very strong bond that prevents any leaks or breaks in our final mask. 

Nelson Labs is one of the most well-established and credible 3rd party testers of non-medical masks, and they require all testing be done on the filter, and not the mask itself. The reason for this is that no non-medical mask can guarantee any percentage of filtration when worn, since so much of that depends on the fit of the mask on the face. But what can be very definitive and black and white is the filtration of the filter itself. I hope that helps to answer your questions. 

 

Second response:

 Most surgical masks that customers are wearing are non-medical surgical masks, and are percentages are based on that. The range for surgical mask filtration is quite high - but within the category of surgical masks, there are many grades, with most sold to non-medical personnel being "non-medical" which have a lower standard of filtration that we have shown in our chart. I hope that helps.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by wathe

[KSera]

Your graphic didn’t show for me @wathe   But from what you’re saying, I’m gathering that they are displaying an as worn filtration efficiency for the surgical mask, but then a filter media efficiency number for their mask?

I know I share this frequently, but since it seems relevant again, if anyone wants to look at Aaron Collins’ data, which is all taken as worn, I’ll post the link. He sits in a small room with a test aerosol that he is measuring the concentration of and then puts a small tube through a special port in the front of the mask which is measuring the aerosol concentration inside the mask. Then he can compare how much of the aerosol is making it inside the mask.

Master mask data set

Kids’ masks data set

he has links to videos where you can watch how he tests and several of his videos have some helpful commentary about how to put on your mask so that it’s fitting you well. For myself, with earloop masks, I don’t ever use an ear loop  mask that doesn’t either have adjustable ear loops or that I adjust after the fact by adding adjusters or using an ear saver. It’s going to be the rare person who can get a tight enough fit with the ear loops as is on a non-adjustable mask.

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by KSera
Why do I make so many typos? Darn auto correct.

[wathe]

One more argument in favour of pleated disposable masks:

From a public health point of view, they are just about perfect.  Inexpensive - so inexpensive that organizations and businesses can afford to supply them to customers at the the door, easy and comfortable to wear, one size fits all, and they work.  

[wathe]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

Your graphic didn’t show for me @wathe   But from what you’re saying, I’m gathering that they are displaying an as worn filtration efficiency for the surgical mask, but then a filter media efficiency number for their mask?

 

 

That's the bottom line, yes.  (That and what they've shown isn't a correctly surgical mask at all, which bugs me!)  

And that number for the "surgical mask" has come out of the air.  They didn't test it, and don't provide any reference for where the number they quote has come from.

Edited September 26, 2021 by wathe

[wathe]

Sorry OP, I've gone quite off topic.

To answer the original question:  Yes, my all-vaxxed family is continuing to mask in all indoor spaces, even with others who are fully vaxxed.  I was the lone masker at a private gathering of all-vaxxed individuals earlier this week.  I ask that my family do the same.  It's part of how we care for each other in our household.

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

I don’t use surgical masks, but did you see @wathe’s post above about HCW using only surgical masks? They don’t work as well as N95, for sure, but seem to keep the majority of people from becoming infected. 

We Did the Research: Masks Work, and You Should Choose a Surgical Mask if Possible https://nyti.ms/3o9bUdz

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I am very, very, very, very pro vaccination, but I do not think there will ever be life without covid again, since unlike measles or polio, which were "one and done" with regard to infections, people can get infected more than once.  And even if everyone on the planet were vaccinated, there is a huge reservoir of covid in multiple animal species.  

I'm not denigrating what people are being asked to do.  I think it's important to do them.  But I think it's important to look at likely end games here.  

You're assuming that our present vaccine strategy is the end game. We currently only have intra-muscular vaccines, which are likely not the best for this airborne virus. They are working on intra-nasal vaccines, better anti-virals, better therapeutics, better air filtration throughout buildings/transportation, etc., and tons of other strategies of which I am sure that I am not aware. We are not even two years into this. These are the mitigation strategies we have at present. Unlike with measles as well, it's not like getting infected gives you lifelong immunity either. All it does is prolong the pandemic and give the virus more opportunity to mutate into a more virulent form that evades the therapies that we do have. So again, why not just do your part so that scientists can work and healthcare workers can catch a breath? Is it really that much to ask people? Apparently, for many Americans, we have our answer, and I am frankly disgusted by these people. I've always been a patriot. I proudly served my country in the Army for six years. I don't know my country anymore. I was a very active member of the Republican party until 2016 (co-chair of the Federalist Society at Stanford Law, member of the board of the California Republican Lawyers Association, attended numerous California Republican Party conventions, etc.). I am truly disgusted by the selfishness. There's no other word for the anger that I feel towards these people.

Edited September 26, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Spy Car]

6 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I just don't understand this whole concept that there will never be life without Covid again. There is life without Measles again. There is life without Polio again. There would likely be life without influenza again if people actually got vaccinated. Covid is no different. I know that we are all frustrated and exhausted, but that is no reason to throw our hands up and just let this thing run wild. Please, do your part to end this pandemic: vax and mask. If not for yourselves and your family, then for the exhausted healthcare workers who have to treat the unvaxed people to which your healthy kids spread this virus.

Are there breakthrough infections? Of course. No one has ever said that vaccines were 100% or that people wouldn't need to get periodic boosters. Big whoop. I just got my 3rd shot and have nothing but a sore arm and a ton of gratitude to show for it. Are masks perfect protection? Obviously not. And we all know that the type of mask and how effectively/consistently it is worn matters. But, lordy. Healthcare workers are not asking Americans to storm the beaches of Normandy here. Please, just do two simple things so that we don't have to keep loading mothers and fathers and CHILDREN into bodybags day after day after day. Because, I assure you, you think it won't be your friends or neighbors or loved ones that this effects. Everyone thinks that until it is too late. 1 in 500 Americans is dead already. How many more? Mask and vax. For the love of G-d, I beg you.  

^^^ I wish I could send this to every inbox in America.

Bill

 

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Spy Car
typo

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I am very, very, very, very pro vaccination, but I do not think there will ever be life without covid again, since unlike measles or polio, which were "one and done" with regard to infections, people can get infected more than once.  And even if everyone on the planet were vaccinated, there is a huge reservoir of covid in multiple animal species.  

I'm not denigrating what people are being asked to do.  I think it's important to do them.  But I think it's important to look at likely end games here.  

Not who you quoted, but I take it to mean that there will be a life without covid at pandemic levels. So regional (or smaller) flare ups but mostly under control. Much like what happens with measles now- even though I do agree that the fact that people can get Covid more than once complicates things. 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Not who you quoted, but I take it to mean that there will be a life without covid at pandemic levels. So regional (or smaller) flare ups but mostly under control. Much like what happens with measles now- even though I do agree that the fact that people can get Covid more than once complicates things. 

My other concern is the reservoir of virus in animals, which will lead to constant mutations there, even if everyone on the planet were vaccinated.  (And honestly, I do not see that happening, especially if multiple vaccinations are required for immunity.). 

I don't think we will always be at pandemic levels of covid with horrific hospital overwhelm.  But I am struggling to imagine a world in which it isn't a danger.  

[KSera]

30 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

We Did the Research: Masks Work, and You Should Choose a Surgical Mask if Possible https://nyti.ms/3o9bUdz

Yeah, I actually commented on your post about that in another thread today. Surgical (procedure) appear better than a non filtering cloth mask (we don't know what kind of cloth masks they distributed), but then didn't distribute any masks better than surgical masks, so they didn't test that so I thought that was a crummy headline to say everyone should chose a surgical mask. The study authors do acknowledge that fact that they didn't test better fitting FFPs, so have no data on that. Given the data, it looks like a pretty safe assumption that better FFPs would have decreased transmission even more. It would have been more accurate to say you should choose a procedure (surgical) mask over a cloth mask if possible. (And I say that as someone who was gung ho on my cloth masks for the first 9 months of the pandemic, until Alpha got here. I had a sewn in edge to edge layer of polypropylene between two layers of tightly woven cotton, and mine secured with ties for a tight fit, and had a strong nose wire, so I felt like I was likely getting better protection in that than I would in a procedure loop at that point. Since January, I haven't worn any cloth masks, though. My cloth masks looked better, though, lol.)

[Dmmetler]

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My other concern is the reservoir of virus in animals, which will lead to constant mutations there, even if everyone on the planet were vaccinated.  (And honestly, I do not see that happening, especially if multiple vaccinations are required for immunity.). 

I don't think we will always be at pandemic levels of covid with horrific hospital overwhelm.  But I am struggling to imagine a world in which it isn't a danger.  

Realistically, that’s been the case with influenza, but we’re now at the point that a new zoonotic strain just gets added to the annual flu shot. That, plus antivirals, makes a world of difference.

[sassenach]

21 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I apparently have an unpopular opinion, but no, I wouldn't make them continue masking.  My big kids and I are all vaxed, my DH and I are low risk anyway.  When my area had a big spike recently,  I did go back to masking in stores for a few months-  BUT I had a bunch of plans and just did not have time to get sick.  Once our plans were over and hospitals weren't crowded (I follow them on FB), I loosened back up.  

Covid is here to stay, this isn't ever going to 'be over'- at some point we will have to go back to living our lives.  Friends and social things are important,  maybe more that we had thought before.  If I or someone in our home were immune compromised,  I would mask.  I am not doing indoor activities with my younger kids- but they are Sooooooo over the no friends stuff.  

My oldest went off to college.  She is vaxed and has been sick s few times already with something- who knows what.  I'm not sure masking the last 2 years helped, bc she's not been exposed to anything and is now in a communal living situation, getting sll sorts of germs.  I told her to expect to be sick- Covid, Flu, allergies, colds- all kinds of sickness- this entire first year.  

I feel exactly the same as you about masking and also, dang, this is definitely true for my college student. It's like kindergarten all over again.

My whole family is vaccinated and we do not mask unless the space mandates it. Remember, unless they are wearing N95s, their masks primarily serve to protect others. The social and emotional damage to our teens has been immense. Our family is choosing to allow our teens normal social relationships. I think it's vital. 

[sassenach]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

I don’t use surgical masks, but did you see @wathe’s post above about HCW using only surgical masks? They don’t work as well as N95, for sure, but seem to keep the majority of people from becoming infected. I can’t recall the estimates of their protection, but recall a big range because it depends how they’re worn. I want to say they can vary something like 25-75% filtration. If you knot and tuck the sides, that helps a lot. Or wear a mask fitter over them. Or just get better masks like KF94s 😊. 

Is that not in an environment where everyone is masking? Where are the studies on one person masking in a maskless environment?

[wathe]

2 hours ago, sassenach said:

Is that not in an environment where everyone is masking? Where are the studies on one person masking in a maskless environment?

I wish.  A large proportion of patients s are unmasked: dementia, intoxicated, dev delay, resp distress or just noncompliance 

Edited patients not pets, autocorrect is killing me today 

Edited September 26, 2021 by wathe

[SeaConquest]

4 hours ago, sassenach said:

I feel exactly the same as you about masking and also, dang, this is definitely true for my college student. It's like kindergarten all over again.

My whole family is vaccinated and we do not mask unless the space mandates it. Remember, unless they are wearing N95s, their masks primarily serve to protect others. The social and emotional damage to our teens has been immense. Our family is choosing to allow our teens normal social relationships. I think it's vital. 

I guess I didn't understand the OP because I thought she was asking whether her kids should just give up the ghost entirely and stop masking, and my answer to that is no. I don't think it's a good idea to just stop masking altogether and let the chips fall where they may, for the reasons expressed above. But, if you are talking about what to do in social situations between vaccinated people, then that is a different calculus, and I don't begrudge people if they make decisions taking things like mental health/health status/positivity rate in their area into consideration, which I agree are all important.

For example, I had two vaccinated friends over the other night. We drank wine on the rooftop of my building by the firepit and had a great time. But, at some point, we got cold and hungry, so we went inside my apartment and ate dinner without masks on. One of my friends is going through a divorce and really needed the support, and I recently found out that I didn't get the new grad residency in the ICU that I really wanted, so I've been feeling pretty down. It was really nice to see friends that I've missed and welcome them to our new apartment. Was there a risk involved? Sure. We are not perfect, but we are all vaccinated, none of us have any serious health issues, we live in an area of California that currently has a 4% positivity rate, and we mask when we go to public spaces. None of us has had Covid to date doing what we have been doing for the past 19+ months -- knock wood.

So, if that is what the OP is asking about, then perhaps I am not as risk-averse as some others.      

Edited September 26, 2021 by SeaConquest

[KSera]

2 hours ago, sassenach said:

My whole family is vaccinated and we do not mask unless the space mandates it. Remember, unless they are wearing N95s, their masks primarily serve to protect others. The social and emotional damage to our teens has been immense. Our family is choosing to allow our teens normal social relationships. I think it's vital. 

While the infected person masking is the most important thing, there has been a lot of data at this point showing even masks that don't protect as well as an N95 provide protection to the wearer as well. The amount of protection depends on the mask. And there are lots of available masks that provide pretty darn good protection to the wearer if they are properly worn. The type that I like to wear tested around 99% filtration efficiency as worn (total inward leakage). I know I may not be getting that good, but I feel confident I am getting a good deal of self protection from wearing it, based on the tests and the fit I get.

To the bolded, I don't think people are talking on this thread about teens not socializing, just about wearing masks while doing so. It seems that masks allow teens to engage in more normal social relationships, rather than needing to stay home entirely. Masks are so normal where I am at this point that they don't seem to impede kids and teens in their interactions at all. I do greatly feel for kids and parents in places where masking has been a divisive issue and no one is doing so. It would be really hard to be a teen and be the only person wearing a mask in that environment.

1 hour ago, sassenach said:

Is that not in an environment where everyone is masking? Where are the studies on one person masking in a maskless environment?

I think nurses working with patients who are covid positive and removing their masks provide a good insight. As do the above referenced tests of aerosol concentrations inside masks when they are being worn. Certainly, the results are going to be much better in environments where everyone is masking, which is why that's the ideal.

Edited September 26, 2021 by KSera

[annandatje]

Do not give up masking regardless of whether vaccinated.

[Not_a_Number]

6 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

My Happy Mask fits me quite well, especially with the lanyard/ear saver to pull it even tighter.  Way better than a surgical mask or the store-bought K/N90-whatevers I see people wearing that are slipping and loose.   And the filter does go edge to edge, which is one of the many reasons I like it a lot better than the styles with slip-in filters.  Is it perfect, no, probably there's a bit of leak by the nose (but not the sides/under).  But way better than the other options I've tried, and miles better than the loose cotton masks and/or poorly fitting disposables still see a lot of people wearing.

I know HMs don't fit everyone as well as they do me - I say find a mask with a good filter that fits you, and get the best seal you can.  If it's slipping down your nose, it's not the right mask for your face!  And if it fits well, then a better filter is still .... better.   A hospital-grade N95 is also no good if you're not getting a good seal.  And outside of a hospital, I've seen like zero people wearing them with a better seal than I get with my Happy Mask.

Same. I get a really good fit on it, and so do the kids and DH. 

There's definitely leakage on top, since glasses fog up. But I can feel the mask move in and out when I breathe, so the seal is better than almost anything else I've tried except a cloth mask slipknotted behind my head really tight -- we used to do this, but it was too much of a pain to take on and off, plus they were cloth, so not good filtration. 

 

6 hours ago, wathe said:

HM is a good mask.  But its marketing is misleading, and I think dishonest.

Honestly, I don't think so. It's an excellent filter. They are allowed to advertise that. And they are actually easy to wear "properly," unlike lots and lots and lots of other masks. 

Like, I understand that a surgical mask worn WELL is probably just as effective, but we're talking real-life use, and that involves taking the mask on and off sometimes and having kids wear masks. Something that's foolproof is worth a lot. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Terabith]

We are continuing to mask in public settings, but we (my vaccinated kids and myself) are doing some get togethers with a small number of friends without masks, when everyone involved is vaccinated, and often held outside.  

[KSera]

35 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

There's definitely leakage on top, since glasses fog up. But I can feel the mask move in and out when I breathe, so the seal is better than almost anything else I've tried except a cloth mask slipknotted behind my head really tight

Did you ever try any KF94s?

[Not_a_Number]

I'm apparently in the minority, but after the kids are vaxxed and the Delta waves dies down, we plan to take the masks off. At this point, anyone who doesn't want to get COVID has the resources to do so, and I feel like I've done my part. 

I expect we'll keep masking in settings like the subway. And I can imagine bringing a mask along in case someone is visibly ill... but I'm not going to have everyone masking permanently, which is what I'd need to do if I wanted to mask until COVID is gone. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Did you ever try any KF94s?

Only for the kids so far, I think. The kids didn't like them as much. 

[Spryte]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm apparently in the minority, but after the kids are vaxxed and the Delta waves dies down, we plan to take the masks off. At this point, anyone who doesn't want to get COVID has the resources to do so, and I feel like I've done my part. 

I expect we'll keep masking in settings like the subway. And I can imagine bringing a mask along in case someone is visibly ill... but I'm not going to have everyone masking permanently, which is what I'd need to do if I wanted to mask until COVID is gone. 

This is where we are, now. Once we are all vaccinated and this miserable Delta wave slows, I think we will be masks off except in very crowded, poorly ventilated areas. 

[teachermom2834]

40 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm apparently in the minority, but after the kids are vaxxed and the Delta waves dies down, we plan to take the masks off. At this point, anyone who doesn't want to get COVID has the resources to do so, and I feel like I've done my part. 

I expect we'll keep masking in settings like the subway. And I can imagine bringing a mask along in case someone is visibly ill... but I'm not going to have everyone masking permanently, which is what I'd need to do if I wanted to mask until COVID is gone. 

Yeah this is where we are. Delta is on its way out where I live. We mask at church where we are sitting in proximity to other people (not super close but the idea that we are stationary for an hour gets to me) and there are so many old folks. One older lady from my church was in the ICU for 8 days with a breakthrough case. 
 

I expect we will carry masks for a long time not because they are required anywhere or because we find ourselves in precarious situations but out of respect for others. When I encounter people in masks I really want to defer to them and their comfort level and I give them a very wide berth or put on a mask. Just seems respectful. I don’t know their story. Today, dd and I went for flu shots at the grocery store. I didn’t feel like we needed masks but there were three old people in the pharmacy waiting area with us and they were all masked. So dd and I put ours on. It just feels respectful and kind and that has been a guiding principle for us through this. Just popping in and out of a store quickly? Maybe or maybe not. Sitting in a waiting area with senior citizens? That’s a yes for now. Youth group with all unmasked teens moving around or teens taking their masks off to eat or drink? Probably not going to bother. Small group discussion in a classroom? Yes there. 
 

I realize the official best answer is yes masks always. But our real life is more nuanced than that and it doesn’t feel ridiculous to make different decisions depending on the circumstances. 
 

While masking all the time for personal protection makes sense if that is what you have determined for your family I am not willing to take on the responsibility of community spread and hospital collapse if my vaxxed and low exposure teen doesn’t wear a mask to a youth group activity. Our community is under vaxxed and anti-mask and has never shut down much of anything. I don’t feel responsible for community spread and hospital collapse when my neighbors are knowingly going to church with active Covid infection and schools are holding big homecoming dances etc. We aren’t the problem here. 

[Melissa Louise]

12 hours ago, KSera said:

Absolutely. I’m talking about an as worn efficacy. The name for that number is skipping my mind at the moment, but I will come back and add it. I see very few people knotting and tucking their procedure masks. I think KF94 and similar masks how much easier to get a snug fit with, as well as some selection bias a lot of people choosing those are likely more conscientious about how they wear their masks in general.

 

I'm literally the only person I see, out and about, knotting and tucking my surgical mask. I don't know why - it's very easy to do! 

 

[kiwik]

On 9/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, kristin0713 said:

I don’t know, but my kid is pretty consistent. He actually doesn’t mind wearing a mask in Taekwondo. And this studio has been very strict all along. (They are still doing temp checks, etc.) They did have breaks for lunch. I’d say it was as consistent as any camp could be, which of course is not going to be perfect when you put a bunch of kids together. He still got a cold . 🤷‍♀️ I certainly don’t begrudge anyone for wearing one or roll my eyes when I see someone masking. I just don’t think there is enough of a benefit *for us* to continue masking if it’s not required, especially if no one else is wearing one. 

Or he got a cold just before he went to the camp? Colds are tricky.  We legally have to mask in shops etc.  The kids don't have to at school.  Ds14 carries one but since there hasn't actually been a case in the South Island for over a year I am not that concerned.

[Jean in Newcastle]

On 9/24/2021 at 10:59 AM, kristin0713 said:

Your teens are vaccinated and they are the only ones masking in their circles?  No, I would not make them mask.  Their masks will not protect them from an unmasked covid spreader. I know that my opinion is not the norm here on this board.  We are all vaccinated and do not mask unless required or requested specifically by someone in our presence. I see no reason to and there are mental health implications for my daughter in continuing to mask. 

 

ETA - And also, DS picked up a cold in taekwondo camp last month when every person there was fully masked. They are pointless for me and my family at this point. 

 

Not picking on your family decisions - as long as you are meeting guidelines etc. and are respectful of others (as you indicate that you are), I have no problem with them.  But I did want to point out that actual colds (even more than Covid) can be picked up from surfaces.  So while masks can help with airborne droplets and can keep you from touching your mouth etc., you could sit down for lunch (or whatever) at a table that has cold germs and pick them up.  And the "common cold" has an incubation period of up to 72 hours (according to Google) so it gets even more difficult to sort out where you might get something.  (Of course Covid too has an incubation period that can make figuring out where you get that difficult too. . . )  All to say that none of this is cut and dried!  I just wouldn't say though that masks don't cut down on airborne viruses at all, though.

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm literally the only person I see, out and about, knotting and tucking my surgical mask. I don't know why - it's very easy to do! 

 

I wear a pony tail and hook my mask over that.  Makes for a perfect tight fit.  Likewise Dd. Oldest Ds is good at fitting his wool tie mask.  Youngest isn’t perfect but I feel like getting him to wear it is a win.