what kind of a yard enclosure for a toy poodle and I live on a hill

[TravelingChris]

I am applying to adopt a toy female poodle who is 6 years old.  Whoever is fostering her says she is not leash trained.  That would be one of the very first things I would do since I do not have a fenced yard.  But the announcement for the dog states you have to have a fenced yard.  What I want to do is get a foldable exercise fence but I live on a hill and don't know what would work.  Since she is a tiny dog, would a puppy fence work?  I would only use this until she learned to wander around part of the yard on her own with the leash.  The main way I have had previous dogs that have lived here go do their business is to use a very long leash and while I stay on the sidewalk, the dog can wander leashed and do his business.  This is what I was thinking about   https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Foldable-Metal-Exercise-Fence/dp/B07584TRXX/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=Portable%2Bdog%2Bfence&qid=1632242763&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExM0Q1Mlo1TlNGNzNTJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzAxODA5MUpRTVZYOEhFRFdJNyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDI1MDA1MThJVEkxR0dBMEFWWiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

When most rescue groups require a fenced yard they mean a regular fence (chain link, privacy, etc. -- not underground/invisible) that's at least four feet tall and that the dog accesses via a door from the home. So you open your back door and the dog is in the fenced yard. I think they're likely to be a very hard "no" to an ex pen. The groups I work with certainly would think it was a joke if someone suggested an ex pen met the fenced yard requirement. But (obviously) I could be wrong. Sometimes they will make exceptions for the right adopter. Sometimes they're swamped and a bit desperate to get dogs in homes (but that's not the usual case for youngish small breeds--there are usually plenty of people who want those). But with a dog whose description specifically states she's not leashed trained--I wouldn't count on it.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Pawz4me

[TravelingChris]

7 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

When most rescue groups require a fenced yard they mean a regular fence (chain link, privacy, etc. -- not underground/invisible) that's at least four feet tall and that the dog accesses via a door from the home. So you open your back door and the dog is in the fenced yard. I think they're likely to be a very hard "no" to an ex pen. The groups I work with certainly would think it was a joke if someone suggested an ex pen met the fenced yard requirement. But (obviously) I could be wrong. Sometimes they will make exceptions for the right adopter. Sometimes they're swamped and a bit desperate to get dogs in homes (but that's not the usual case for youngish small breeds--there are usually plenty of people who want those). But with a dog whose description specifically states she's not leashed trained--I wouldn't count on it.

Well I guess I will try.   I mean there is leash training to get a dog to go on a walk- which she doesn't need to do and leash using where she can go where she wants.  I don't have a back yard- my back yard is a series of porches and a pool.  Dogs use my front yard and that is separated by a front porch, sidewalk,  very short wall (maybe five inches or so, drainage channel which is also paved, and then front yard and side yard.  

I am not counting on anything.  Just trying.  She is not fully toilet trained indoors only so I would either have her wear diapers or use pee pads. Poodles are usually super easy to train.  

[vonfirmath]

Toy poodles are not dogs that should be left alone in any yard!

 

ETA: We had a toy and a miniature poodle growing up. They were inside dogs that went outside (on leash) ONLY to go potty. Or ride in someone's pocket. Before them we had a peki-poo that ran out the front door when our grandparents were there and got scooped up and we never saw again. Little dogs are BIG theft risks.

Edited September 21, 2021 by vonfirmath

[Pawz4me]

If you haven't submitted the application yet then I'd very pro-actively address the (lack of) fence issue in it if you can. State that you realize the rescue group would prefer that but unfortunately you don't have one but you're fully prepared to [and then give some detail about how you're prepared to handle it]. They're more likely to consider it if you let them know you've thought it out and have a plan.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Can you provide a safe place for the dog to exercise and potty?  If you can't then perhaps a dog is not a good choice for you right now.  A safe place is most often a fenced yard even for smaller dogs because not only does it keep the dog from running away, ,it protects the dogs from other predators and bigger dogs. 

[Innisfree]

7 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Toy poodles are not dogs that should be left alone in any yard!

 

ETA: We had a toy and a miniature poodle growing up. They were inside dogs that went outside (on leash) ONLY to go potty. Or ride in someone's pocket. Before them we had a peki-poo that ran out the front door when our grandparents were there and got scooped up and we never saw again. Little dogs are BIG theft risks.

Not to mention hawks, owls, and coyotes, depending on the area.

[annandatje]

Having worked in various breed and mutt rescues, I think lack of a safe fence will be a no-go.  To abide by the rules, I have had to reject applicants who probably would have been good pet parents.  Not sure what part of country you are in, but adopting dogs from rescue can be a daunting task.  My middle daughter was turned down by a sheltie rescue in Pacific Northwest because her securely fenced back yard was not large enough even though their rescue site had no lot size requirements listed.   She is a jogger and runner, so the dog would have ample exercise opportunities.  Instead, she turned to a breeder for a sheltie.  She now has a gorgeous fluffy sheltie who is quite fond of his cat housemates.

[Selkie]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Can you provide a safe place for the dog to exercise and potty?  If you can't then perhaps a dog is not a good choice for you right now.  A safe place is most often a fenced yard even for smaller dogs because not only does it keep the dog from running away, ,it protects the dogs from other predators and bigger dogs. 

I agree. There have been several instances here lately of coyotes coming into yards and snatching small dogs, even when a human is right there. A good fence is an absolute must. 

As someone else has already mentioned, birds of prey are also a danger to small dogs.

[vonfirmath]

1 minute ago, Selkie said:

I agree. There have been several instances here lately of coyotes coming into yards and snatching small dogs, even when a human is right there. A good fence is an absolute must. 

As someone else has already mentioned, birds of prey are also a danger to small dogs.

And a fence would not protect said dog from birds of prey.

Thankfully the place my parents got their rescues from did not require fenced yards for house dogs.

 

[Pawz4me]

As is often the case I see LOTS of gray on these issues.

I think most dogs benefit from having a fenced yard.

But I'm also firmly of the opinion that all dogs, if at all possible, need to be walked. They need the physical exercise but, mostly importantly, they need the mental stimulation of smelling and seeing different things. We have a neighbor who has a toy poodle and that poor dog's feet rarely touch the ground other than for a very quick potty. I hate that with a fiery hot passion. He's a dog, not a stuffed toy. Put him down and let him walk and sniff.

And a fence isn't a guarantee of safety. Yeah, coyotes and hawks are big risks in many areas. A fence won't stop a hawk, and also won't necessarily keep a determined or inquisitive coyote out. We've had them and foxes in our fenced yard. ETA: Our fence is well maintained. But it's only four feet. They can jump it.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Innisfree]

I don't know if it's possible to talk to someone at the rescue, but that's what I would really want to do, to convey my willingness to do the best thing for that particular dog. I could imagine an arrangement involving a large, roofed pen alongside the house, which the dog could access by a doggy door. Or maybe something else, but this isn't a generic situation, and some flexibility and creativity on the parts of both rescue and adopter could ensure the dog has a good, safe situation.

[MercyA]

We don't have a fenced yard and my dog only goes out on a leash (every single time, no exceptions). A fenced yard would be nice for her but I'm pretty sure we make up for that in lots of other ways. And even if she had a fenced yard I'd never let her out alone. Too many small dogs get snatched. When I see a cute little dog tethered outside, I am tempted to leave a note on their collar that says "I could have stolen your dog."

If you can't put up a fence, I'd let the rescue know that you are committed to leashing her EVERY time she goes out for her safety. 

God bless you for being willing to work with and train this dog. I hope it works out for you both.

[Selkie]

23 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

And a fence would not protect said dog from birds of prey.

Thankfully the place my parents got their rescues from did not require fenced yards for house dogs.

 

Obviously, I was not saying that a fence would prevent a dog from getting snatched by a bird. It was just to note that small dogs face unique dangers that larger dogs do not.

[vonfirmath]

24 minutes ago, MercyA said:

We don't have a fenced yard and my dog only goes out on a leash (every single time, no exceptions). A fenced yard would be nice for her but I'm pretty sure we make up for that in lots of other ways. And even if she had a fenced yard I'd never let her out alone. Too many small dogs get snatched. When I see a cute little dog tethered outside, I am tempted to leave a note on their collar that says "I could have stolen your dog."

If you can't put up a fence, I'd let the rescue know that you are committed to leashing her EVERY time she goes out for her safety. 

God bless you for being willing to work with and train this dog. I hope it works out for you both.

We have a fenced backyard and my parents bring their small dogs every time they come to our house because they don't want to leave them alone. They walk them in our backyard -- but not unleashed. Too big a chance they will find a hole to get out. (though to be realistic -- they would not likely leave the yard. OTOH they get very interested in chasing the rabbits.)

[ktgrok]

Is the back area with the pool and patios fenced? If so, the rescue may just count that. Say that your back is fenced, but you mostly plan to leash walk the dog, and the dog would never ever be off leash outside of a fenced area. 

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

Toy poodles are not dogs that should be left alone in any yard!

 

ETA: We had a toy and a miniature poodle growing up. They were inside dogs that went outside (on leash) ONLY to go potty. Or ride in someone's pocket. Before them we had a peki-poo that ran out the front door when our grandparents were there and got scooped up and we never saw again. Little dogs are BIG theft risks.

No I would not leave outside at all alone. I live in area with animals that would eat her.  That is why I think the whole yard requirement is so stupid.  She would be eaten if left outside--- between birds that would eat her, coyotes that would eat her, bobcats that would eat her and now we have escaped Servals in our county too that would eat her.  Plus occasional black bears that would eat her and there have been sighting of cougars too that would eat her.  Lots of small dogs left outside have been eaten.   I live on a street where there is no through traffic really -and theft is a very unlikely scenario here but being eaten is a very likely scenario.

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Can you provide a safe place for the dog to exercise and potty?  If you can't then perhaps a dog is not a good choice for you right now.  A safe place is most often a fenced yard even for smaller dogs because not only does it keep the dog from running away, ,it protects the dogs from other predators and bigger dogs. 

No fences protect from the coyotes around here nor from the Great Horned Owl that lives across the street and would find a toy poodle tasty.  All my small dogs always got plenty of exercise in my large house.  I have enough space in my giant great room to play games with them, etc, and running about the house is really enough exercise.  

My usual practice here and I have had two small dogs and two medium I did this with was let outside with me holding leash and they roam the yard,  I though all the dogs commands to go potty and they all learned very quickly.  I am outside with the dog- never leaving dogs out alone because like I said in previous post, little dogs and even medium sized dogs have been snatched by predators.

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

If you haven't submitted the application yet then I'd very pro-actively address the (lack of) fence issue in it if you can. State that you realize the rescue group would prefer that but unfortunately you don't have one but you're fully prepared to [and then give some detail about how you're prepared to handle it]. They're more likely to consider it if you let them know you've thought it out and have a plan.

That is what I did. I explained that I didn't expect the dog to walk on a leash but simply attached a leash and let it out in the yard while I stand there.  I also said that I am willing to buy a portable metal cage with door if that is what they prefer or whatever they suggest but in reality, especially with a toy poodle and the predators, I would never leave it outside alone in our area.  Now this rescue is in a city that is completely surrounded by our city but that city probably has a lot less predators than my area.  My area is wooded and near denser woods and a large farm and lots more woods and lots of houses in the woods and lots of animals in these woods.  Coyotes stealing small dogs from even 6ft enclosures and I think someone had an 8ft enclosure and the coyote got a dog- so everyone letting out small dogs into their back yards in my area of town are putting their dogs at great risk.  I would be outside and would have some ways to scare away predators- noise maker of some kind, water gun blaster, etc..  

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Innisfree said:

Not to mention hawks, owls, and coyotes, depending on the area.

Yes- this exactly.  The Sharp shinned hawks that live across the street use my more open wooded yard to teach their young to hunt.  I saw this once and it was incredible- now they are too small to take a toy poodle- they stick to birds up to pigeon sized- who while not so small, weigh very little-much less than a dog, and things like chipmunks.  But yes, Great Horned Owl does live across the street too and it can easily take a toy poodle.  Why I would never leave her outdoors even if I had a fenced yard.

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

As is often the case I see LOTS of gray on these issues.

I think most dogs benefit from having a fenced yard.

But I'm also firmly of the opinion that all dogs, if at all possible, need to be walked. They need the physical exercise but, mostly importantly, they need the mental stimulation of smelling and seeing different things. We have a neighbor who has a toy poodle and that poor dog's feet rarely touch the ground other than for a very quick potty. I hate that with a fiery hot passion. He's a dog, not a stuffed toy. Put him down and let him walk and sniff.

And a fence isn't a guarantee of safety. Yeah, coyotes and hawks are big risks in many areas. A fence won't stop a hawk, and also won't necessarily keep a determined or inquisitive coyote out. We've had them and foxes in our fenced yard. ETA: Our fence is well maintained. But it's only four feet. They can jump it.

My goal with the dog would be to take it on walks too- but of course, it needs to learn how to walk on a leash.  We have a nice park and stream parkway only about 2 miles away from us.  We go there frequently.  We go to other areas that would be great for the dog to walk in.  But I am disabled and I would not be walking the dog every day.  Most exercise would be in the house. And if my miniature poodle, poodle-corgi mix, and even a fairly large boxer mix got enough exercise with playing in my house- I really do have a lot of space in my house and both dh and I like to play with dogs, I am absolutely sure the toy poodle would have plenty of exercise in the house.  But yes, of course, I want my dog to also experience life as much as possible.  I want to bring her on walks.  

I think the foster's admonishing that not leash trained could mean different things- it could mean she refuses to walk if leash attached or it could mean she isn't an orderly walker on a leash- like she pulls, or ????.    She came from a hoarding situation.  very attached to whomever has her.  I think this probably means she will be easily trained to walk on leash near me.

[Pawz4me]

1 minute ago, TravelingChris said:

Most exercise would be in the house. And if my miniature poodle, poodle-corgi mix, and even a fairly large boxer mix got enough exercise with playing in my house- I really do have a lot of space in my house and both dh and I like to play with dogs, I am absolutely sure the toy poodle would have plenty of exercise in the house.  But yes, of course, I want my dog to also experience life as much as possible.  I want to bring her on walks. 

Good. Walks aren't *just* about exercise. In truth even the longest walk at an average human pace isn't much exercise at all for medium/large dogs. But the mental stimulation is fabulous. Dogs need that for their mental health and overall well being. Even if it's only once a week or so.

Quote

 

I think the foster's admonishing that not leash trained could mean different things- it could mean she refuses to walk if leash attached or it could mean she isn't an orderly walker on a leash- like she pulls, or ????.    She came from a hoarding situation.  very attached to whomever has her.  I think this probably means she will be easily trained to walk on leash near me.

It could mean all of the above. It could also mean she's absolutely terrified of the leash, or of having a collar or harness on. Dogs who come from hoarding situations often have lots and lots of issues. But if you're prepared to work through them--and prepared to accept whatever behaviors she has that perhaps can't be worked through--then it can be very rewarding. I call them project dogs. Sometimes I've needed the challenge of one and sometimes I've known it wasn't the right time at all.

Good luck!

[Selkie]

18 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

My goal with the dog would be to take it on walks too- but of course, it needs to learn how to walk on a leash.  We have a nice park and stream parkway only about 2 miles away from us.  We go there frequently.  We go to other areas that would be great for the dog to walk in.  But I am disabled and I would not be walking the dog every day.  Most exercise would be in the house. And if my miniature poodle, poodle-corgi mix, and even a fairly large boxer mix got enough exercise with playing in my house- I really do have a lot of space in my house and both dh and I like to play with dogs, I am absolutely sure the toy poodle would have plenty of exercise in the house.  But yes, of course, I want my dog to also experience life as much as possible.  I want to bring her on walks.  

I think the foster's admonishing that not leash trained could mean different things- it could mean she refuses to walk if leash attached or it could mean she isn't an orderly walker on a leash- like she pulls, or ????.    She came from a hoarding situation.  very attached to whomever has her.  I think this probably means she will be easily trained to walk on leash near me.

The fact that she's from a hoarding situation is why they are being adamant about requiring a fence. Such dogs are usually very fearful and prone to bolt. If they get away, they are extremely difficult to catch because they have never been socialized and are terrified of everyone and everything.

In my experience of adopting hoarded dogs, many of them never get over their fears. Adopting one is definitely a challenge and requires much more work and patience than a "normal" dog, and a willingness to accept lifelong ptsd-like behaviors.

[vonfirmath]

6 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

My goal with the dog would be to take it on walks too- but of course, it needs to learn how to walk on a leash.  We have a nice park and stream parkway only about 2 miles away from us.  We go there frequently.  We go to other areas that would be great for the dog to walk in.  But I am disabled and I would not be walking the dog every day.  Most exercise would be in the house. And if my miniature poodle, poodle-corgi mix, and even a fairly large boxer mix got enough exercise with playing in my house- I really do have a lot of space in my house and both dh and I like to play with dogs, I am absolutely sure the toy poodle would have plenty of exercise in the house.  But yes, of course, I want my dog to also experience life as much as possible.  I want to bring her on walks.  

I think the foster's admonishing that not leash trained could mean different things- it could mean she refuses to walk if leash attached or it could mean she isn't an orderly walker on a leash- like she pulls, or ????.    She came from a hoarding situation.  very attached to whomever has her.  I think this probably means she will be easily trained to walk on leash near me.

My parents two dogs came from a hoarding situation too. They are very bonded to each other. Used to living outdoors and having to protect their food. Even now, over a year later, they grab a mouthful of food then run away to eat it elsewhere (though now they will eat it in public and not try to hide with it) But they have grown very used to their cage inside my parents house (they have a big enough cage for both to sleep in because that is what the rescue advised and the dogs seem to enjoy it) to the point of getting agitated when they move the travel cage to the car to come to our house (OTOH once at our house, they seem to know it is safe too because they again calm down once their cage is placed inside and they can get to it -- but should the door ever get closed such that they cannot go into their cage -- that becomes a Big Problem.