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Biden's Mandate


Ordinary Shoes
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34 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I see this as the "I'm stopping the car on the edge of the highway, and we're not going to Disney World unless you kids cut it out and act right"-when the parent really, really doesn't want to waste all the money spent on the trip and spend their vacation at home with sullen uncooperative kids, but is at the end  of their rope move.  

 

That is a parental role to take that step.  I do not think it is the role of a government.  

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

I'm also wondering how they know 80 million unvaccinated people will be covered by these mandates.  IME people in the vax-hesitant groups tend to work for smaller businesses if they work (for pay) at all.

There are a lot of smart people working for Biden, so I am guessing they know this.  And that they made a conscious decision to target large business employees while exempting many.  It would have been just as easy to say that you need to prove vaccination in order to receive the child tax credit, unemployment benefits, various types of welfare, medicare, or medicaid.  But they didn't.

This is an excellent point. Over 33% of companies have less than 100 employees and won't be affected by the mandate. The only vaccine hesitant person I know who works for a large company is a nurse working for a large hospital system! Look, I wish we could find a way to convince everyone to vaccinate. I just think this is not the way to do it and this may not be all that effective anyway.

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3 minutes ago, Danae said:

Maybe if everyone who feels this way just chants “I’m doing it because I want to, not because you tell me to” while they get their vaccine that will help.

Doesn't work when those around you are screaming ":Get vaccinated or lose your job"

 

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26 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Agreed. I almost DIDN'T get vaccinated because I was afraid it would become required.

I was convinced that was not the case.

And look at where we are now, less than a year later (less than 6 weeks after the last time we were assured there would be NO vaccine mandate!)

 

The logic of "I almost didn't do something to protect myself due to the remote possibility I may be mandated to protect myself" is...something.

And FTR there still is no wide vaccine mandate. It is either vaxx *or* test.  

Edited by AnotherNewName
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Just now, AnotherNewName said:

The logic of "I almost didn't do something to protect myself due to the remote possibility I may be mandated to protect myself" is...something.

And FTR there still is no wide vaccine mandate. It is either vaxx *or8 test.  

Just wait.

Every step of the way I've been told "Your concerns are not valid"

But they have been justified.

 

I'm about to take my mask off.

I've been masking to make those around me feel more comfortable. It's obvious they don't care about anyone who doesn't feel the same as they and will jump to requiring if they cannot convince.

 

 

 

Edited by vonfirmath
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I had come VERY close to convincing my husband to get vaccinated for his own good and the good of our family.

I don't know if I'll ever convince him now and I'm VERY angry and terrified/scared. And I can't even blame him for not trusting the government's motives on this anymore.

 

Edited by vonfirmath
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7 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Doesn't work when those around you are screaming ":Get vaccinated or lose your job"

 

Or test. It's basically saying you don't have the right to spread a deadly virus to your co-workers, and that people have the right to a safe workplace. 

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1 minute ago, kokotg said:

Or test. It's basically saying you don't have the right to spread a deadly virus to your co-workers, and that people have the right to a safe workplace. 

But if those co-workers are vaccinated, they have nothing to worry about.  That's the justification. If you are vaccinated you c an't spread the virus.

 

Except. You can. The vaccine does not prevent spreading it.

 

Edited by vonfirmath
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1 hour ago, SKL said:

I'm also wondering how they know 80 million unvaccinated people will be covered by these mandates.  IME people in the vax-hesitant groups tend to work for smaller businesses if they work (for pay) at all.

There are a lot of smart people working for Biden, so I am guessing they know this.  And that they made a conscious decision to target large business employees while exempting many.  It would have been just as easy to say that you need to prove vaccination in order to receive the child tax credit, unemployment benefits, various types of welfare, medicare, or medicaid.  But they didn't.

Data. Math. That’s how they know. They count businesses and people. They use math. It’s not particularly hard math for most people either. It’s addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Most people in the US have the ability  to all draw the same conclusions when given the same information. They know things. We can know things, too. I’m not being sarcastic, but I am pointing out something that is fairly obvious. 

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5 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

But if those co-workers are vaccinated, they have nothing to worry about.  That's the justification. If you are vaccinated you c an't spread the virus.

 

Except. You can. The vaccine does not prevent spreading it.

 

I don’t know what I think about a mandate. If you can test once a week there is definitely an out if you don’t want to get vaccinated and you still want to work there. I think there should also be a clause for previously infected who can still prove immunity- if that’s possible.

Being vaccinated doesn’t completely prevent you spreading it but it does reduce that risk. There have been several studies recently about this, even with Delta.

As for regretting doing something you thought was a sensible thing to do, because there is now a rule - how do adults even give that more than a passing thought? 

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6 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

But if those co-workers are vaccinated, they have nothing to worry about.  That's the justification. If you are vaccinated you c an't spread the virus.

 

Except. You can. The vaccine does not prevent spreading it.

 

And a weekly test won't catch every case. Are we really still doing this? Vaccines greatly reduce transmission even though there are breakthrough cases (I'm not sure why people act like this is some new concept and not, like, the whole idea since forever wrt public health and vaccination for any number of diseases). Screening tests will catch a lot of cases. Everyone will be safer. 

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17 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Just wait.

Every step of the way I've been told "Your concerns are not valid"

But they have been justified.

 

I'm about to take my mask off.

I've been masking to make those around me feel more comfortable. It's obvious they don't care about anyone who doesn't feel the same as they and will jump to requiring if they cannot convince.

 

 

 

Oddly enough the risk of virus transmission isn't related to feelings.

And again there is no broad vaxx mandate so I don't see how your concerns have been justified.

And damn it when people simply won't try to do the minimum to help each other sometimes you do have to jump to "required" (where allowable by law).

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14 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

I had come VERY close to convincing my husband to get vaccinated for his own good and the good of our family.

I don't know if I'll ever convince him now and I'm VERY angry and terrified/scared. And I can't even blame him for not trusting the government's motives on this anymore.

 

The motive of preventing a deadly viral transmission?

Those bastards.

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3 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

But if those co-workers are vaccinated, they have nothing to worry about.  That's the justification. If you are vaccinated you c an't spread the virus.

 

Except. You can. The vaccine does not prevent spreading it.

 

Do you wear seatbelts and use car seats?  Are you aware that people can still die in car crashes even when they are using seatbelts and car seats?  
 

Vaccines reduce risk.  Having the people around you also vaccinated further reduces risk. 
 

Even when I’m wearing my seatbelt I try not to roll my car, and even though I’m vaccinated I try not to be exposed to the virus.  And one of the best ways to reduce the risk is to not be around unmasked unvaccinated people.

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9 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

But if those co-workers are vaccinated, they have nothing to worry about.

 

On a population-wide level, vaccinations make a huge difference in reducing viral spread and severity. On an individual level, there's no certainty. Each infection is a roll of the dice. 

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10 hours ago, SKL said:

Also, once again, where is the recognition of naturally acquired immunity?  Perhaps it will be written into the rules and regulations ....

Immunity wanes. That’s why my husband got an MMR booster a few years ago when there was a measles outbreak in an area of the US to which he frequently traveled. His exposure was verified through contact tracing. So he did the responsible thing and talked to his PCP. Even though he was fully vaccinated as a child, a blood test showed his immunity to measles had waned. So, he not only took responsibility for his health, he took responsibility for the health of everyone he comes in contact with, and the people they come in contact with, as he literally travels the world for business. 

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22 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

I had come VERY close to convincing my husband to get vaccinated for his own good and the good of our family.

I don't know if I'll ever convince him now and I'm VERY angry and terrified/scared. And I can't even blame him for not trusting the government's motives on this anymore.

My DW has been one of the doubters for more than one year. She was afraid that if I got vaccinated that I would die and she told me that many times.  I have been following the vaccines and have the most confidence in Pfizer-BioNTech and my second choice was Moderna.

And then, WOW...  In Japan 3 men who had the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine died. I think 2 of them were in their 30s and the other one was 49?

And then, I read that the vaccine they received was contaminated, with particles of Stainless Steel and my DW says also other things.

Japan and the WHO are claiming the Stainless Steel was not a factor and that the Moderna vaccine was not a factor...

I am now a doubter.  Certainly if I eventually receive Moderna it will be a long time from now.

Our DD had her 2nd dose of Pfizer-BioNTech in Germany today and I am thankful for that. She had some issues 12 days after the first vaccination and I am not sure those issues had anything to do with the vaccination.

There is always risk to things, but to me, 3 men dying in Japan after receiving the Moderna vaccine (it was made and/or packed in Spain) after getting vaccinated may be the result of the vaccine, although at this time they are saying no. And that the contamination wasn't an issue. 

I don't like to assume, but in this case I am going to assume that there is a connection between the 3 deaths and the fact that the 3 men all received the Moderna vaccine.

ETA: My Stepson had dose #1 of Moderna approximately 6 weeks ago and then there was a huge shortage of Moderna here in Colombia which severely disrupted the vaccination scheme. Colombia was supposed to have received 5 million doses of Moderna during the 3rd quarter of 2021 but had only received about 180000 of the doses. Now, I am wondering if that is connected to the issues in Japan?

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26 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

But if those co-workers are vaccinated, they have nothing to worry about.  That's the justification. If you are vaccinated you c an't spread the virus.

 

Except. You can. The vaccine does not prevent spreading it.

 

False. It's the unvaccinated who are overwhelming hospitals. That should be a worry for everyone. It seems to me a lot of people go around believing they're some sort of truly special snowflake to whom bad things can and will never happen, but we all know that's not true. Bad things can happen to any of us at any time. Any of us, any of our kids or spouses or parents, could be a second away from needing an ambulance and major ER services. And the unvaccinated are causing a big problem with those.

Edited by Pawz4me
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I do think this could have been announced differently and had a different impact. 
Something like- In line with workplace safety, all companies with over 100 full time employees will now, under OSHA guidelines, be required to test employees weekly. Fully vaccinated employees will be exempt. 
The details got lost in the screaming vaccine mandate headline and that’s all a lot of people will read. 

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54 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Agreed. I almost DIDN'T get vaccinated because I was afraid it would become required.

 

That is the strangest rationale I have ever heard from an adult. Did you refuse other vaccines or vaccines for your children simply because they are mandated? 

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As a 20+ year veteran homeschooler I've spent decades explaining to people that if you take government funds/services, then you have to obey government regulations.  If you don't want to obey government regulations, don't take government funds/services.  I can't spend decades saying that and then say I think they should be exempt from government regulations in another situation where they took government funds/services. So if you take a government paycheck or work in a government funded facility, you have to follow their regulations or stop working for the government and using government services.

To be fair, I'm seeing quotes where Biden said in late 2020 he didn't support government mandates, if he really said he didn't favor mandating it at all in any circumstances, he was foolish. We've watched how many people don't mask, how a significant percentage don't mask properly because they don't understand that covering your nose too is necessary, and significant numbers buy into conspiracy theories about the vaccine, so it's no surprise that this mutated to a more deadly strain and is overwhelming medical facilities. This was a real possible scenario all along.


As to pay, it's $7 and change an hour for minimum wage in my area with growth so explosive and housing costs to high, prices are increasing at a rate of $20,000-$30,000 per month. We bought a second house this spring or our  disabled kid and her spouse to live in while they go back to college. People are currently offering up to double the asking price without seeing the houses they buy and many tens of thousands in earnest money for starter homes.

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36 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

I had come VERY close to convincing my husband to get vaccinated for his own good and the good of our family.

I don't know if I'll ever convince him now and I'm VERY angry and terrified/scared. And I can't even blame him for not trusting the government's motives on this anymore.

 

Because the government's motives can't possibly be that they want to end a pandemic.

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1 hour ago, bibiche said:

Nearly 70% of the population in France approves of the passe sanitaire and a majority actively reject the anti-passe movement, which is something in a country that practically reveres protest.

I suspect it will be similar here, that the loudest voices get heard, but the majority approve the actions taken by the Biden administration.

I hope you’re right, obviously. I know not to trust those poll numbers. The sentiment on the ground there was shocking to me, but maybe I have radical friends lol. 

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10 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

False. It's the unvaccinated who are overwhelming hospitals. That should be a worry for everyone. It seems to me a lot of people go around believing they're some sort of truly special snowflake to whom bad things can and will never happen, but we all know that's not true. Bad things can happen to any of us at any time. Any of us, any of our kids or spouses or parents, could be a second away from needing an ambulance and major ER services. And the unvaccinated are causing a big problem with those.

Yes!  I have personally needed emergency surgery twice and urgent surgery once between the ages of 25 and 47. None of them were symptomatic beforehand. Who doesn't know someone who has needed emergency services? That doesn't go away during a pandemic.  Add to that people who are delaying time sensitive care because they don't want to avoid the hospital until they're SURE they need to go.

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