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Biden's Mandate


Ordinary Shoes
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2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I believe it's because their employees belong to a union. Also, I think they are considered to be a different kind of agency from other federal agencies. 

Don't most if not all federal employees belong to a union?

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This is the first I've heard of it (busy day). Just went and looked it up. So it looks like there is a choice between vaccine and weekly testing.

Setting aside the argument of "Is this overreach?", just looking at the policy itself it seems quite a reasonable way to go about this. If you have a large number of people potentially working together, they should be either vaccinated or testing regularly to make sure that any outbreak is caught and dampened before it spreads in this large number of people. So even if you aren't willing to be vaccinated, you can still be part of the solution while not violating your principles (if you're against vaccination for an actual principle, which is another argument I'm just going to set aside). 

The way people are decrying being forced to be vaccinated I didn't realize there was the second option. No, it's not pleasant to get a weekly test, but it isn't in the realm of inhumane treatment and unless you have left jobs on principle to stand against random drug testing, I would say that any objection to this is more pomp than principle. It isn't an unreasonable request to show that, if you aren't taking the necessary precautions, that you are not a danger to the group.

These are two reasonable options being given to employees and focusing only as if there is a vaccinate-or-leave dichotomy is really misleading and I'm surprised this isn't being pointed out more. 

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1 hour ago, kokotg said:

You know who else doesn't have a choice? My grandmother. She's 93 and in an assisted living place, in and out of lockdown because every few weeks some unvaccinated employee turns up positive and she's stuck in her room with no visitors again. She spent last Christmas in lockdown alone in her room. But, sure, make sure to protect the FREEDOM of the people working at her assisted living place by keeping my grandmother locked in a room alone.  

I know that is so very hard on the elderly and honestly there is no good solution.  There was a localish nursing home that tried to mandate all their employees get vaccinated earlier this year and so many quit that they no longer had staff to properly care for the patients.  They ended up reversing their stance because they couldn't even hire enough new vaccinated people to cover the shifts.

So what's worse being stuck in your room alone or suffering because of lack of care/assistance?  I'm mean they both suck, I'm not sure you can say one scenario is better than the other.

Edited by cjzimmer1
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I knew this was going to thrill a lot of people here, but I think a government mandate of non-government employers is wrong.

But I'm not sure how much of it is theater, since by the time they write and start enforcing the rules, the Delta wave will almost certainly have passed.

I could see the point of saying it's easier on the employers who would like their employees to get vaxed.  But that doesn't trump the US constitution.  And anyway, plenty of large employers have already created such mandates.  I guess they can do it if they want to, without the prez involved.

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33 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Also, the Supreme Court said vaccine mandates are okay back in 1905.

can you cite the case? mandated by the president himself and enforced through the executive branch? I would believe this on a local level, or even state, or through legislation. I don't believe this issue has come up at all with a president giving a vax mandate through executive order, enforced by fines on private businesses. 

Please, I'm just asking everyone to think about what they would think about the president they disagreed with the most threatening to bypass governors who resisted his EOs, using corporations to enforce his EOs, holding people's livlihoods over their heads with disdain for them because they don't want a shot. I know y'all revile the people who won't get vaccinated. I get it. But think about if it's something, some cause you don't agree with and your president can just force it through using big business. Isn't it wrong to do it this way even if getting the vaccine is right?

Isn't this exactly what everyone in the US was afraid of happening with the last guy? It's the same exact vaccine no one wanted under his admin less than a year ago! It's the same things everyone didn't want him doing because it was tyrannical and king-like and not in his purview. We all vowed to fight this type of stuff from the last executive because we knew it was dangerous for a president to dictate these things. Right??? All the other same conditions of people dying and hospitals filling up happened under him too but we knew we didn't want one guy overrulling all other checks and balances to put his mandate on poor people, PoC, undocumented workers...? It's just too much.

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4 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I know that is so very hard on the elderly and honestly there is no good solution.  There was a localish nursing home that tried to mandate all their employees get vaccinated earlier this year and so many quit that they no longer had staff to properly care for the patients.  They ended up reversing their stance because they couldn't even hire enough new people.  

That’s why state wide or nation wide mandates are better because then employees can’t just move on to some place that doesn’t require vaccines. In my state, nursing home workers are covered under the state vaccine mandate for healthcare workers. 

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1 hour ago, kokotg said:

You know who else doesn't have a choice? My grandmother. She's 93 and in an assisted living place, in and out of lockdown because every few weeks some unvaccinated employee turns up positive and she's stuck in her room with no visitors again. She spent last Christmas in lockdown alone in her room. But, sure, make sure to protect the FREEDOM of the people working at her assisted living place by keeping my grandmother locked in a room alone.  

I am truly sorry about your grandmother's situation. But what does this have to do with the president of the US mandating vaccines through EO? This can be handled any number of ways without giving the next Trump a horrible precedent to follow. The assisted living place could mandate the vax for employees for starters. Or so many other things could happen that make so much more sense than making this a presidential mandate enforced via corporations.

I just feel like all this is setting up for very bad things in the future. The pendulum always swings back. But no one ever cares as long as the person is mandating the thing they are in favor of. And then outrage that the next guy has so much power to wield.

Vaccines are good! Everyone able should get them! This is not good.

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28 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

This is the first I've heard of it (busy day). Just went and looked it up. So it looks like there is a choice between vaccine and weekly testing.

Setting aside the argument of "Is this overreach?", just looking at the policy itself it seems quite a reasonable way to go about this. If you have a large number of people potentially working together, they should be either vaccinated or testing regularly to make sure that any outbreak is caught and dampened before it spreads in this large number of people. So even if you aren't willing to be vaccinated, you can still be part of the solution while not violating your principles (if you're against vaccination for an actual principle, which is another argument I'm just going to set aside). 

The way people are decrying being forced to be vaccinated I didn't realize there was the second option. No, it's not pleasant to get a weekly test, but it isn't in the realm of inhumane treatment and unless you have left jobs on principle to stand against random drug testing, I would say that any objection to this is more pomp than principle. It isn't an unreasonable request to show that, if you aren't taking the necessary precautions, that you are not a danger to the group.

These are two reasonable options being given to employees and focusing only as if there is a vaccinate-or-leave dichotomy is really misleading and I'm surprised this isn't being pointed out more. 

This is the only argument though. The president of the US is telling people, individuals, they must get a swab in their nose every week or get an injection AND this is going to be enforced by their employer and what is at stake is your means of supporting yourself or your family. It's not reasonable for this to be coming via EO. It just simply is not. Just imagine it being something you disagree with instead of something you find humane and reasonable and it's easy to see why it can't happen from an EO. First of all, again, we don't even know what fully vaxxed is at this point and we don't have RCTs to test that, afaik. We are collecting data on boosters as they are going in arms. That's not great. Are we willing to mandate all of this and then mandate another round of shots next year and the year after that and the year after that? Second of all, none of this will go into effect in time for the NE to avoid their winter waves of illness and they already have good vax rates. They are going to end up in the same spot as other highly vaxxed places that see cases rise. And then you'll have a mandate while people watch cases go up. I see all the arguments from emotion, and justifying the means because of the ends. I see justifying it because there are hundreds of other laws that were passed that reflect conditions of employment. I see that the shots are great. Testing every week isn't that bad. I get that this is horrible for everyone because their are no good options and we just want it to be over. It is horrible. We're all tired of it. This isn't the way out unless we want it paved for something awful.

 

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51 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

can you cite the case? mandated by the president himself and enforced through the executive branch? I would believe this on a local level, or even state, or through legislation. I don't believe this issue has come up at all with a president giving a vax mandate through executive order, enforced by fines on private businesses. 

Please, I'm just asking everyone to think about what they would think about the president they disagreed with the most threatening to bypass governors who resisted his EOs, using corporations to enforce his EOs, holding people's livlihoods over their heads with disdain for them because they don't want a shot. I know y'all revile the people who won't get vaccinated. I get it. But think about if it's something, some cause you don't agree with and your president can just force it through using big business. Isn't it wrong to do it this way even if getting the vaccine is right?

Isn't this exactly what everyone in the US was afraid of happening with the last guy? It's the same exact vaccine no one wanted under his admin less than a year ago! It's the same things everyone didn't want him doing because it was tyrannical and king-like and not in his purview. We all vowed to fight this type of stuff from the last executive because we knew it was dangerous for a president to dictate these things. Right??? All the other same conditions of people dying and hospitals filling up happened under him too but we knew we didn't want one guy overrulling all other checks and balances to put his mandate on poor people, PoC, undocumented workers...? It's just too much.

I’m not sure where to start with this, as there are a couple things you say I agree with, but then a couple that seem to be coming out of left field. I have to get the latter  out of the way first, and that’s, where did you get the idea that everyone was against vaccines when Trump was president? All the people I know now who are very grateful for them were very eager and grateful for them when they were being developed as well, they just wanted the scientists to finish the process in the usual way and not have them pushed through early so that they were out before Election Day, before the trials were done. I’ve been reading what scientists and public health people have been saying all along, and I never saw any of them not wanting the vaccines. So I’m confused by the whole line of argument. 
 

Now on the executive order side, I do agree that it’s super concerning to think where that could lead. I don’t like that as a way of legislating as a matter of course. On the other hand, I really do think this is a national emergency and it has been ongoing so long that I feel like it is a matter of national security to do more to try to regain stability. We have kids just now going back to school after being out of school for a year and a half. Some of those have gone back for a week or two only to be back out of school due to so much illness within their school. These are not normal times. We have all kinds of industries that have been totally disrupted and many still aren’t back to normal operations due to their business model being incompatible with pandemic conditions. And then there are the hospitals which are an emergency in themselves at this point. I would have much preferred for enough people to do the right thing that this was never necessary, but it does seem but there comes a point in an emergency thst something has to be done to change it, and the president is responsible for national safety and security. I wonder how bad a disease would have to be for people to think that this was the right call? If ebola  was running rampant in this country and we had a vaccine for it that half the people were refusing to take nor did they want to get tested for it as an alternative, would we just have to let it rip? Would the president be authorized in that case to take more extreme measures to end that pandemic?

Oh, I also wanted to address the “you people all revile the people who won’t get the shot” part. I’m not sure who all you mean by “you people,” but I can assure you that’s not true for lots of people here. There are people here married to people who won’t get vaccinated. All my closest loved ones who are old enough are fortunately all vaccinated, but I still care very much what happens to those people who aren’t. I wonder what reason people think people have for wanting others to be vaccinated? Is there any cruel reason to want people vaccinated? I personally can’t bear that so many people are continuing to lose their lives because they’ve been led down the rabbit hole of misinformation. For a lot of those people, it’s too late for them by the time they realize and regret what has happened. I want more people vaccinated so that that doesn’t keep happening to people. And so that hospitals are no longer full, healthcare workers are no longer traumatized, my older kids can get back to activities, and my youngest can push the little cart at the grocery store.

Edited by KSera
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3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I'm not in favor of government mandates, so I am very against this announcement. I wonder if the next step will be requiring proof of vaccination for Welfare? Social Security benefits? Wic? Unemployment?

Private employers, fine. Government telling private employers what they have to make their employees do? Nope. (And yes, I believe this about a LOT of existing government departments like OSHA & the FDA. I'm consistently anti-government overreach.

OSHA has authority issued Congress to set policies which protect worker safety.  OSHA does not have the authority to do the same for those receiving benefits.

It should be noted that the order does not mandate a vaccine.

2 hours ago, lulalu said:

This is awful. This is why we needed to push back and fight executive orders years ago. This is not the authority or position that the president has. This needs to be left up to individual businesses to decide. This opens the door for far too much. We opened the door to executive orders and that will never go away. What comes after this mandate? 

There is no executive order and aside from federal contractors, an executive order cannot be used to regulate private businesses. They are using OSHA's regulatory powers.

And honestly we can move away from executive orders if we ever get a functional legislative branch again.  Although in fairness the outcry about EOs is a bit misplaced due to their limited scope.

2 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Yep. I'm against the federal government requiring private employers to do all those things.

I'm

Ah, one of those kinds of libertarians. Must be fun to argue for no regulation after leading a life protected by regulation.

2 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I agree - let it be said, this decision alone will likely have major election impact in the future and that is nearly as scary as the mandate. This was an incredible overreach. The government has zero right deciding what medical procedure, including injections that I do or do not take. 

There is no vaccine mandate.

58 minutes ago, SKL said:

Don't most if not all federal employees belong to a union?

I know most have union coverage but active union membership is lower. Federal unions are somewhat impotent.

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The SCOTUS case which affirmed the legislative authority to issue a vaccine mandate is Jacobsen vs. Massachusetts.   I agree with those concerned the president does not, and should not, have the authority to issue a national vaccine mandate on his/her own.  However, Congress did give OSHA the authority to set work place policies to protect the safety and health of workers. I believe the authority granted is broad enough to justify a vaccine/testing mandate.  Had issue OSHA ordered a vaccine mandate only I believe they may have been on thinner ground, though likely still defensible, but by providing the testing option I believe this policy will survive judicial challenges.  

The slippery slope arguments are a bit weak.  Why? 1.) OSHA is operating within the confines of the authority granted by Congress. 2.) The mandate is limited enough in scope to not be out of step with prior OSHA regs. 3.) There is no logical extension of this policy which could be used to issue a wider mandate.

 

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59 minutes ago, SKL said:

I knew this was going to thrill a lot of people here, but I think a government mandate of non-government employers is wrong.

I’m not at all thrilled. I feel like we need a mandate for the same reason that my hair curling iron has to have a warning label on it that says it’s not for internal use. But whatcha gonna do? 🤷‍♀️ Humans. I don’t think anyone thinks needing such warnings and mandates is a win for humanity. It’s just an effort to mitigate the damage of humans being humans.

Aside from being terribly disappointed by what modern results of Darwin’s evolution theory means for the human species…

The problem with your phrasing about gov’t mandates for “private” companies is most people have zero comprehension of how many private companies hold government contracts - and part of the contract is that those private companies have to follow government regulations and mandates. Don’t like it? Then quit privatizing government work. I’m actually all for that.  But it seems like what everyone really means when they say they want smaller government is that they want a few people to privately incorporate and coop the government for personal financial gain. I’m not on board with that at all. 

59 minutes ago, SKL said:

But I'm not sure how much of it is theater, since by the time they write and start enforcing the rules, the Delta wave will almost certainly have passed.

Riiight. Okay. Sure. I mean I like that you think that’ll maybe be the end of covid problems on a large scale.  I even think it’s a bit admirable that after the last 18 months you still have the optimism to think this is all going to be a non-issue in 6 months.

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43 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

The president of the US is telling people, individuals, they must get a swab in their nose every week or get an injection AND this is going to be enforced by their employer and what is at stake is your means of supporting yourself or your family. It's not reasonable for this to be coming via EO. It just simply is not. Just imagine it being something you disagree with instead of something you find humane and reasonable and it's easy to see why it can't happen from an EO. 
 

There is a precedent of a former president mandating vaccines for the troops:

https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html

(I posted this in another thread)

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This feels like old news.  I mean, it was just announced but it's not been any secret that it would be announced.  And it's been no secret that the federal government employs people and can set standards for its employees.  Nor has it been a secret that public health and safety is under the purview of the government.  Nor is it some weird dystopian move to ask for people to do a weekly test for a contagious illness if they CHOOSE to not get vaccinated. 

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I am conflicted. I'm really damn tired of unvaxed people, thinking they can act like it doesn't exist- but then fill up hospitals, overwork healthcare workers, and go on to infect untold others, really tired. All the people that said you don't have to mandate the right thing people do it on their own.

BUT employment is a big issue here. Dh's work can not get and keep workers. They have raised wages and benefits and have bonuses just for coming to work. Now, they are looking at a program to bring workers from Latin America. 

I don't think it will end well on the political side.

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5 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

The way people are decrying being forced to be vaccinated I didn't realize there was the second option. No, it's not pleasant to get a weekly test, but it isn't in the realm of inhumane treatment and unless you have left jobs on principle to stand against random drug testing, I would say that any objection to this is more pomp than principle. It isn't an unreasonable request to show that, if you aren't taking the necessary precautions, that you are not a danger to the group.

These are two reasonable options being given to employees and focusing only as if there is a vaccinate-or-leave dichotomy is really misleading and I'm surprised this isn't being pointed out more. 

Yes.  I test weekly in order to visit my mother in her care home.  It's just not a big deal.

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5 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

can you cite the case? mandated by the president himself and enforced through the executive branch? I would believe this on a local level, or even state, or through legislation. I don't believe this issue has come up at all with a president giving a vax mandate through executive order, enforced by fines on private businesses. 

Please, I'm just asking everyone to think about what they would think about the president they disagreed with the most threatening to bypass governors who resisted his EOs, using corporations to enforce his EOs, holding people's livlihoods over their heads with disdain for them because they don't want a shot. I know y'all revile the people who won't get vaccinated. I get it. But think about if it's something, some cause you don't agree with and your president can just force it through using big business. Isn't it wrong to do it this way even if getting the vaccine is right?

Isn't this exactly what everyone in the US was afraid of happening with the last guy? It's the same exact vaccine no one wanted under his admin less than a year ago! It's the same things everyone didn't want him doing because it was tyrannical and king-like and not in his purview. We all vowed to fight this type of stuff from the last executive because we knew it was dangerous for a president to dictate these things. Right??? All the other same conditions of people dying and hospitals filling up happened under him too but we knew we didn't want one guy overrulling all other checks and balances to put his mandate on poor people, PoC, undocumented workers...? It's just too much.

Yep, so much for the great uniter I voted for to prevent this kind of overreach.  Now I have to do whatever the president thinks is right. I thought our current president would be different and he just wants to sweep Abbott and Desantis out of the way.  Now, I am mad at my governor right now, but we VOTED for him.  You just cannot sweep him out of the way. We will see whether our state votes him out or not, but that is not the president's choice. It just isn't. Even before this I was getting all kids of requests to sign the petition to secede. This will make it worse.  

I have said it before, but I will see it again. This list of awful presidents we have had lately remind me of the presidents before the Civil War.  I think we are heading for another one. I just do not see how our points of view can be reconciled.

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Jacobsen though was about county level restrictions.  I can see very well that any mandate to private companies not involved in contracting with government, would be required to follow the rules.  

The big problem is that there are not enough tests available already and now we are supposed to have even more testing required and not enough tests.

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8 hours ago, Spy Car said:

What's next? Mandatory seat belts???

Bill

I literally remember when that was a controversy, plus helmet laws and car seat laws. My high school persuasive speech was on mandatory seatbelt laws. I got an A. 

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I'm conflicted and have no new/substantive response, but as usual felt the need to weigh in. 😉 

I'm very pro-vax, so in a way I support what POTUS is doing. I think hospital overcrowding is a HUGE threat to every person in this country. I hate to refer to the loaded term "fear" because I tend to scoff and roll my eyes whenever a Covid hoaxer uses it. But here's the thing--I think I can honestly say I've never had any fear about Covid itself. Cautious concern--yes. Fear--no. But the thought of needing emergency care in an overcrowded, way overworked ER--yeah, that at least borderline scares me.

But OTOH I'm leery of the ever increasing use of executive orders. It's not good governance in a democracy. But as broken as Congress is I don't know what the alternative is. The use of executive orders doesn't have a chance of being reduced until we (somehow) get back to having a functional Congress. I don't know if that's possible. I look at certain members of the House who seem to be there only to cause controversy that gets themselves trending on social media and it sure makes me doubtful. 

I don't know what the answers are.

I think it's a very politically risky move, but it may well turn out to be genius. The majority of Americans have received at least one dose of the vaccine, and there's a kind of tribalism around decisions. Once we make a decision we want others to do the same to confirm that we did the right thing, bought the right brand of car or phone or whatever. So it may be that the majority of the people will think this is the right thing to do.

Mostly it makes me sad and despairing that there are so many sorry a$$ed people who have to be forced to do the right thing during a pandemic.

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48 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

 

The big problem is that there are not enough tests available already and now we are supposed to have even more testing required and not enough tests.

A close friend of mine is dean at a regional campus of a big state university.  The university president announced all kinds of testing protocols and requirements but my friend says there is no way to implement those requirements.  Our health commissioner was just fired and he was the one she was working with to get tests (before this announcement) and she has no idea how to get the tests, the scheduling done, student/faculty records on who has been vaccinated, etc.  It's a nightmare.  

 

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Just now, Kassia said:

A close friend of mine is dean at a regional campus of a big state university.  The university president announced all kinds of testing protocols and requirements but my friend says there is no way to implement those requirements.  Our health commissioner was just fired and he was the one she was working with to get tests (before this announcement) and she has no idea how to get the tests, the scheduling done, student/faculty records on who has been vaccinated, etc.  It's a nightmare.  

 

Yes, so here in Texas, they will just throw up their hands. We tried. So Biden’s mandate will be ignored.  We Texans are very good at digging in our heels. . 

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1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

 

The big problem is that there are not enough tests available already and now we are supposed to have even more testing required and not enough tests.

Part of the announcement yesterday was that Biden will use the Defense Production Act to increase manufacturing of test kits.

(Also, just because it's related -- for the next three months at home test kits will be available to individuals at cost through Amazon, Walmart and Kroger.)

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6 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

This is the only argument though. The president of the US is telling people, individuals, they must get a swab in their nose every week or get an injection AND this is going to be enforced by their employer and what is at stake is your means of supporting yourself or your family. It's not reasonable for this to be coming via EO. It just simply is not. Just imagine it being something you disagree with instead of something you find humane and reasonable and it's easy to see why it can't happen from an EO. First of all, again, we don't even know what fully vaxxed is at this point and we don't have RCTs to test that, afaik. We are collecting data on boosters as they are going in arms. That's not great. Are we willing to mandate all of this and then mandate another round of shots next year and the year after that and the year after that? Second of all, none of this will go into effect in time for the NE to avoid their winter waves of illness and they already have good vax rates. They are going to end up in the same spot as other highly vaxxed places that see cases rise. And then you'll have a mandate while people watch cases go up. I see all the arguments from emotion, and justifying the means because of the ends. I see justifying it because there are hundreds of other laws that were passed that reflect conditions of employment. I see that the shots are great. Testing every week isn't that bad. I get that this is horrible for everyone because their are no good options and we just want it to be over. It is horrible. We're all tired of it. This isn't the way out unless we want it paved for something awful.

 

This! Last week, the battle was about whether we could convince people that they could trust the government enough to get the vaccine. THIS week, the battle is that the government is proving they can't be trusted and are willing to cause people to lose their jobs and damage businesses that may have already struggled through the pandemic. Businesses in my area are already begging for workers. The anti-vaxxers I know were already suspicious about why the government is so insistent and now they feel their fears have proven true. I've already seen anti-vaxxers decline travel to see new grandchildren, throw away concert tickets, resign from jobs, and take the loss on airplane tickets because they won't get the vaccine. I think this administration is clueless about vaccine hesitancy and is just making it worse.

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19 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I think it’s a gift to the far right here and elsewhere, just like Macron’s pass sanitaire I think will cost him the election.  Delta peaked already. This was not necessary.

I think so, too.   My stomach is already in knots thinking who might get elected next go-round.  

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1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I think it's a very politically risky move, but it may well turn out to be genius. The majority of Americans have received at least one dose of the vaccine, and there's a kind of tribalism around decisions. Once we make a decision we want others to do the same to confirm that we did the right thing, bought the right brand of car or phone or whatever. So it may be that the majority of the people will think this is the right thing to do.

First time I'm reminded of Lord of the Flies in real life.

I want more people to be vaccinated.  But I hate the mentality behind this.

As I've said before, it is the already marginalized Americans who will be hit hardest by this.  Is this really what we want ... did they really think this through ....

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22 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

This! Last week, the battle was about whether we could convince people that they could trust the government enough to get the vaccine. THIS week, the battle is that the government is proving they can't be trusted and are willing to cause people to lose their jobs and damage businesses that may have already struggled through the pandemic. Businesses in my area are already begging for workers. The anti-vaxxers I know were already suspicious about why the government is so insistent and now they feel their fears have proven true. I've already seen anti-vaxxers decline travel to see new grandchildren, throw away concert tickets, resign from jobs, and take the loss on airplane tickets because they won't get the vaccine. I think this administration is clueless about vaccine hesitancy and is just making it worse.

You outlined my thoughts exactly.  People who are anti vaxx are not going to get it, carrot or stick or nothing.

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9 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

People who still might have been convinced will dig in and refuse.

If they were going to be convinced, they would have already been convinced. They had plenty of time to be convinced. They chose otherwise. And they are totally able to refuse - they just have to test weekly in that case. A weekly test when working in a company of over 100 people during a pandemic is not some dystopian thing. It's common damn sense. 

9 hours ago, lulalu said:

This is awful. This is why we needed to push back and fight executive orders years ago. This is not the authority or position that the president has. This needs to be left up to individual businesses to decide. 

1. It was decided with OSHA. They have LEGISLATIVE authority to create safety rules. That's not executive branch overreach. 

2. Should individual businesses also get to decide if they have fire exits, if they label dangerous chemicals properly, if they pay for overtime, if they hire 7 year olds for dangerous jobs, etc? Cause those things are the same level of government overreach. 

9 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I do not support stripping people of their livelihood or face invasive medical testing, nor fining employers who have already been slammed by the pandemic pre-vaccine and are now desperate for employees. Public health policy by definition isn't (or shouldn't be) about penalties and ruining people..

A low nose swab is not "invasive" in the way most people thing of it. It is not a huge deal, and you can even swab yourself in many cases. Are you truly arguing that a nasal swab weekly is worse than people getting sick and DYING? Are people truly saying that it would be better to be unemployed than test weekly for a disease that is killing hundreds of thousands of people? What happened to patriotism? Americans are DYING and asking people to take a weekly test is asking to much of them when it comes to protecting their fellow Americans? Seriously?

9 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Yep. I'm against the federal government requiring private employers to do all those things.

I'm also anti-draft, especially for women. And I'm against the federal government using our tax dollars to pressure states into 55 mph speed limits (obviously a very old reference) or passing motorcycle helmet laws.

I'm absolutely for people voluntarily choosing to get fully vaccinated. I'm for people choosing to wear masks. I'm totally ok with private businesses choosing to require their customers to mask or their employees to get vaccinated (hopefully with medical exemptions). But the federal government requiring these same things -- by executive order? Nope.

And yet you enjoy so many benefits of it. 

 

 

9 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Some guy who got covid 10 months ago working some crap job in a chicken processing plant is going to be fired or get a nasal swab once a week because he is slightly scared the government might be screwing him on the vaccine it promises will make his life better? 

Some guy isn't willing to participate in safety regulations and will be fired than a nasal swab? 

7 hours ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I know that is so very hard on the elderly and honestly there is no good solution. 

The solution is for people to stop throwing temper tantrums screaming "you can't make me" and put their big girl and boy panties on and do their part to end a deadly freaking pandemic. 

7 hours ago, SKL said:

I knew this was going to thrill a lot of people here, but I think a government mandate of non-government employers is wrong.

 

Government, under OSHA and others, mandates a ton of stuff regarding private businesses. 

7 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:


Isn't this exactly what everyone in the US was afraid of happening with the last guy? It's the same exact vaccine no one wanted under his admin less than a year ago!

I was literally praying daily for a vaccine under the last guy. 

6 hours ago, AnotherNewName said:

 

Ah, one of those kinds of libertarians. Must be fun to argue for no regulation after leading a life protected by regulation.

 

 

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I literally remember when that was a controversy, plus helmet laws and car seat laws. My high school persuasive speech was on mandatory seatbelt laws. I got an A. 

Yup. One of the big arguments against seat belts was that they wrinkled clothing. sigh...

 

6 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

This! Last week, the battle was about whether we could convince people that they could trust the government enough to get the vaccine. THIS week, the battle is that the government is proving they can't be trusted and are willing to cause people to lose their jobs and damage businesses that may have already struggled through the pandemic.

They are not causing ANYONE to lose their job. Just get vaccinated against the deadly pandemic ravaging our country OR get a weekly test to make sure you are not spreading it further. If you won't do either of those you suck, and don't deserve to be working in a company of over 100 people anyway. 

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10 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

If they were going to be convinced, they would have already been convinced. They had plenty of time to be convinced. They chose otherwise. And they are totally able to refuse - they just have to test weekly in that case. A weekly test when working in a company of over 100 people during a pandemic is not some dystopian thing. It's common damn sense. 

1. It was decided with OSHA. They have LEGISLATIVE authority to create safety rules. That's not executive branch overreach. 

2. Should individual businesses also get to decide if they have fire exits, if they label dangerous chemicals properly, if they pay for overtime, if they hire 7 year olds for dangerous jobs, etc? Cause those things are the same level of government overreach. 

A low nose swab is not "invasive" in the way most people thing of it. It is not a huge deal, and you can even swab yourself in many cases. Are you truly arguing that a nasal swab weekly is worse than people getting sick and DYING? Are people truly saying that it would be better to be unemployed than test weekly for a disease that is killing hundreds of thousands of people? What happened to patriotism? Americans are DYING and asking people to take a weekly test is asking to much of them when it comes to protecting their fellow Americans? Seriously?

And yet you enjoy so many benefits of it. 

 

 

Some guy isn't willing to participate in safety regulations and will be fired than a nasal swab? 

The solution is for people to stop throwing temper tantrums screaming "you can't make me" and put their big girl and boy panties on and do their part to end a deadly freaking pandemic. 

Government, under OSHA and others, mandates a ton of stuff regarding private businesses. 

I was literally praying daily for a vaccine under the last guy. 

 

Yup. One of the big arguments against seat belts was that they wrinkled clothing. sigh...

 

They are not causing ANYONE to lose their job. Just get vaccinated against the deadly pandemic ravaging our country OR get a weekly test to make sure you are not spreading it further. If you won't do either of those you suck, and don't deserve to be working in a company of over 100 people anyway. 

Well said. All of it. 

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I'm about as pro-vaccine as you can get, but I feel conflicted about this move too.   Although, it's not like sacrificing for the common good has never been done here (such as rationing during WWII).   It's what a country needs to do when it's in survival mode.  I remember walking through the smallpox vaccination line in our school cafeteria with all my classmates.   When a person immigrates to the USA, a lot of vaccines are required.  

It's the direction a lot of companies were either already heading or wanting to head anyway.  So a federal mandate makes it easier for them.  Now those of a certain group don't have a reason to be angry at those businesses because, well, it's not the business's fault that there's a mandate!  

But the climate is so toxic right now, that who knows how this will play out.  This is bringing out so much hateful speech from some people.  It's really sad to see.

I think only time will tell.  Next year at this time, if it seems like the country has pulled past the worst of Covid, the economy is decent, and no one has grown a 6th toe from the vaccine, maybe it will be okay.

That said, I wonder what will be done when large companies refuse?

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I'm also wondering how they know 80 million unvaccinated people will be covered by these mandates.  IME people in the vax-hesitant groups tend to work for smaller businesses if they work (for pay) at all.

There are a lot of smart people working for Biden, so I am guessing they know this.  And that they made a conscious decision to target large business employees while exempting many.  It would have been just as easy to say that you need to prove vaccination in order to receive the child tax credit, unemployment benefits, various types of welfare, medicare, or medicaid.  But they didn't.

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1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

I think it’s a gift to the far right here and elsewhere, just like Macron’s pass sanitaire I think will cost him the election.  Delta peaked already. This was not necessary.

What? Delta has NOT peaked in Oklahoma.  I wish it had. We are being crushed by it here.

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8 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I am truly sorry about your grandmother's situation. But what does this have to do with the president of the US mandating vaccines through EO? This can be handled any number of ways without giving the next Trump a horrible precedent to follow. The assisted living place could mandate the vax for employees for starters. Or so many other things could happen that make so much more sense than making this a presidential mandate enforced via corporations.

 

Yeah, if that HAD happened "for starters" we wouldn't be here. But vaccines have been available for people working at long term care facilities for, what? 9 months, and this crap is still happening. I'll just tell my grandmother the free market will be along to save her any....year? now. 

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8 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Veggie?🧐

I edited it.  Thank you for sharing what was offensive.  I thought the others who found it offensive without saying why just preferred to think of it as a personal choice that didn't affect others.

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4 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Yeah, if that HAD happened "for starters" we wouldn't be here. But vaccines have been available for people working at long term care facilities for, what? 9 months, and this crap is still happening. I'll just tell my grandmother the free market will be along to save her any....year? now. 

Yeh, my ILs just finished up a 14 day quarantine - stuck in their room, no PT, no OT, no social anything - because a HCW at their facility came up positive. It’s disruptive, and damaging not just mentally but also physically - missing PT sets them back. It’s very frustrating. And, overall, we are thrilled with this facility and think they are doing a great job. But we do have these rolling quarantines. 

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2 hours ago, madteaparty said:

I think it’s a gift to the far right here and elsewhere, just like Macron’s pass sanitaire I think will cost him the election.  Delta peaked already. This was not necessary.

Nearly 70% of the population in France approves of the passe sanitaire and a majority actively reject the anti-passe movement, which is something in a country that practically reveres protest.

I suspect it will be similar here, that the loudest voices get heard, but the majority approve the actions taken by the Biden administration.

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For those who feel this was a bad choice, What would you have the federal government do at this point? We're 18 months into a pandemic. A majority of the adults in the US are vaccinated, but there's a sizable minority that isn't. Of those, some are sitting on bad science, some are even Booing Trump when he tells them to get vaccinated and that he was, and maybe some still have barriers to getting vaccinated, although that last argument is getting much harder to accept over time. 

 

We've given people a chance to get vaccinated, to mask, to social distance, etc on their own. They aren't. 

 

Then, you have state governors, some of whom who refuse to take even small steps. Requiring masks for children in school is a small step, not a big one. But not only are governors not doing it, they're not allowing school districts or local health departments to do so, and threatening schools with loss of funds. Indoor mask mandates are a small thing, but again, are a bridge too far.  Some of the same governors are blocking companies from putting in vaccination requirements.

 

And the people who are being hit hardest now are kids. Kids who can't be vaccinated yet, or teens who could be, but not without parental permission. They COULD be protected, if the adults were vaccinated, but they aren't. I have had more students affected by COVID so far this school year than I did the entire last one-and my students are in districts which were in person last year. But this year, the schools aren't requiring mask mandates, and generally aren't enforcing them if they're in place.  

 

I see this as the "I'm stopping the car on the edge of the highway, and we're not going to Disney World unless you kids cut it out and act right"-when the parent really, really doesn't want to waste all the money spent on the trip and spend their vacation at home with sullen uncooperative kids, but is at the end  of their rope move.  

 

Have there been mistakes made all through COVID? Yep, lots of them. I don't think this is one. Yes, there will be a political cost. But there's also a political cost to sitting back and letting kids get sick and die from something that could have been much reduced had adults been responsible. Yes, there will be people who quit jobs because they don't want to get vaccinated or tested regularly. But you know what? Dead people don't work. Sick people don't work. People with long term health issues don't work or don't work as effectively. Sometimes, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. This is one of those times. And if Biden is going to be damned no matter what he does or does not do, erring on the side that is more likely to save lives and make the situation better vs worse seems the way to go.  

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, bibiche said:

Nearly 70% of the population in France approves of the passe sanitaire and a majority actively reject the anti-passe movement, which is something in a country that practically reveres protest.

I suspect it will be similar here, that the loudest voices get heard, but the majority approve the actions taken by the Biden administration.

yeah, the cold political calculation here is the unvaccinated are very much in the minority. At this point it's 30% of the country holding everyone hostage, and most of the 70% who are vaccinated are tired of it. 

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11 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

I'm pro-vax. My whole family is vaxxed. My son was in the vaccine trial. I'm friends with the county health director who's always pushing the vaccine. I wish people would just get the vaccination so we might have a chance to get rid of this someday soon. But no, no, no to this mandate. I think people are going to fight back big time and this is going to have the opposite effect. People who still might have been convinced will dig in and refuse. Go read responses to the mandate all over the internet. I think it's overreach and a big mistake.

Agreed. I almost DIDN'T get vaccinated because I was afraid it would become required.

I was convinced that was not the case.

And look at where we are now, less than a year later (less than 6 weeks after the last time we were assured there would be NO vaccine mandate!)

 

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22 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

For those who feel this was a bad choice, What would you have the federal government do at this point? We're 18 months into a pandemic. A majority of the adults in the US are vaccinated, but there's a sizable minority that isn't. Of those, some are sitting on bad science, some are even Booing Trump when he tells them to get vaccinated and that he was, and maybe some still have barriers to getting vaccinated, although that last argument is getting much harder to accept over time.

The administration should have spent the past 6+ months researching and addressing the reasons why the large majority of vax hesitant people are hesitant.

The majority of yesterday's sweeping mandates won't even touch these vulnerable groups (other than to increase discrimination against them).  And they won't end the pandemic.

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12 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I favor vaccination but not this.  This is overreach, and it's by executive order, which is troubling.  

 

You are stating an opinion by calling this “overreach.” My opinion is that your opinion is uneducated on some specifics. 

Some facts: This is constitutional. The President has simply pointed out and given specific direction to an existing body to follow an existing law. All three branches of the government have signed off on this in one manner or another. See constitutional trail below. 

But first, in response to your opinion, here’s mine:  Follow. The. Money. The only method of challenge is for SCOTUS to ignore its own precedent, which is possible, but who knows if it’s likely in this case because from a legal standpoint it comes down to this legally established fact:  a healthy workforce = healthy economy. Both politicians  & the citizens they represent are in favor of a healthy economy. Sadly, some value that more than the well being of others, but if that’s what it takes to prevent further illness & death, short of a change of heart in other people, I can work with that. 

Here is the legal, constitutional trail: 

“We, the people, in order to …promote the general welfare…do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” 

President = Constitutional

Congress = Constitutional 

SCOTUS = Constitutional 

Article II, Section I, Clause I of US Constitution = executive power of President 

Sec. of Labor = confirmed by Senate  = constitutional 

OSHA administrator = reports to Sec. of Labor = constitutional 

OSHA Act of 1970, Section 2b = “Congress finds personal injuries and illnesses arising out of work situations impose a substantial burden upon, and are a hindrance to, interstate commerce in terms of lost production, wage loss, medical expenses, and disability compensation payments.”

OSHA Ac of 1970, Section 2c = “Congress declares it to be its purpose and policy, through the exercise of its powers to regulate commerce among the several States and with foreign nations and to provide for the general welfare, to assure so far as possible every working man and woman in the Nation healthful working conditions and to preserve our Human Resources.”

SCOTUS past rulings on use of executive orders = must be: rooted in the Constitution; enacted by the Congress in statutes (check and check). 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, SKL said:

The administration should have spent the past 6+ months researching and addressing the reasons why the large majority of vax hesitant people are hesitant.

The majority of yesterday's sweeping mandates won't even touch these vulnerable groups.  And won't end the pandemic.

Frankly there’s nothing left to address. At this point all the excuses and whining seems to boil down to some people do not want to do it because they fear it’ll mess with the reception of their tinfoil hats and I do not have any patience left to coddle that.

And it’s not even really a vaccine mandate. It’s a vaccinate or weekly test mandate. Big whoop. Don’t want it? Don’t get it. Here’s your PCR test. Which this order will also mandate the ramping up of PCR tests too. Personally I think it feels like Biden has been twiddling his thumbs for several months now and it’s past time he did more.

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19 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Agreed. I almost DIDN'T get vaccinated because I was afraid it would become required.

I was convinced that was not the case.

And look at where we are now, less than a year later (less than 6 weeks after the last time we were assured there would be NO vaccine mandate!)

 

Maybe if everyone who feels this way just chants “I’m doing it because I want to, not because you tell me to” while they get their vaccine that will help.

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