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Biden's Mandate


Ordinary Shoes
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Not seeing this on the board yet. Apologies if I've overlooked it. 

What do you guys think? 

I haven't had a chance to read much about it yet. I know that it's going to be an OSHA requirement. I haven't read any legal commentary about that yet. 

My guess is that most large employers are going to apply the mandate and not fight it in court. In many ways this takes the responsibility off of the employer. They don't have to be the bad guy. 

My non-vaxxed co-workers blew up about this today. I think most of them will get vaccinated after the mandate but I think there are a few who will quit over it. I think some will do the weekly testing instead of the vax but will eventually get vaccinated out of convenience. 

I'm glad that Biden is going down this path. We need to get to a higher vaccination rate to stop new variants. 

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1 minute ago, Farrar said:

 

This is basically how I feel at this point. (Warning, humor piece, but with a lot of bad words...)


I didn’t even get to the end of the title when I cracked up.

But in all seriousness, making fun of people doesn’t bring them to your side and we need everybody to stand together while navigating a pandemic and the whole thing just terrifies me if I think about it for too long. 

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I'm not in favor of government mandates, so I am very against this announcement. I wonder if the next step will be requiring proof of vaccination for Welfare? Social Security benefits? Wic? Unemployment?

Private employers, fine. Government telling private employers what they have to make their employees do? Nope. (And yes, I believe this about a LOT of existing government departments like OSHA & the FDA. I'm consistently anti-government overreach.

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I wish it hadn't come to this, but I'm relieved to see it.  I've been fretting about the hospitals filling up and whether the fda might approve the vaccine for kids when maybe it isn't really warranted on a personal risk level.  I feel resentful that so many adults who are at higher risk from covid and lower risk from the vaccine have basically dumped all this on the kids.  Closed schools going into the third year, unheard of debt levels, psychological trauma, etc.  At this point I really don't care if their rights are violated, and by this I mean people who are anti-vax and anti-mask (not people who can't vax or people who don't want to vax but still mask and distance). [Inappropriate comment deleted by moderator.]

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2 minutes ago, Ailaena said:


I didn’t even get to the end of the title when I cracked up.

But in all seriousness, making fun of people doesn’t bring them to your side and we need everybody to stand together while navigating a pandemic and the whole thing just terrifies me if I think about it for too long. 

I don't read it as making fun of anyone. It's full of honest frustration and rage and a plea at the end. It's written in a humorous style and obviously people are called a bad word, but she calls everyone the same word over and over, including the people who agree with her.

I'd love to think that gently educating people was going to help, but... we have been trying that for months and months and getting nowhere. It's nearly impossible to break through. So even if someone does read this as mocking, who cares. 

Dh and I have talked about this - about how there's so much rage right now among people who did get the vaccine against the conspiracy theories that we think there's a lot of room for a demagogue politician who really does vilify and mock those who refuse the vaccine, among other things. 

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16 minutes ago, Ailaena said:


I think this is a hardcore political topic, but I have to say that I think this will cause a certain number of people to see proof of a conspiracy and cause them to be further alienated.   

They can't get any LESS vaccinated, so I don't see what downside there is. If they were going to do the right thing on their own they'd have done it already.

 

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I think that if we want to participate in society, concessions have to be made. We pay into it. We pay taxes, so we can conveniently drive on roads, and use libraries, and solicit firemen and women to come and put all our fires out. We may pay more in taxes than we ever actually get out of the system, but we do it so that everyone in our society has access to these benefits.

Vaccines are the same way. Getting a little jab to protect your neighbor and the vulnerable is the price people must pay if they want access to most of the benefits society has to offer. I see no problem with the mandate. They aren’t coming to your door and forcing it into your arms. They aren’t hauling people off to jail. They are simply asking you to get it if you want to continue working alongside others in places with large numbers. In order to keep people safe and healthy! It’s honestly so ridiculous. 
 

If you don’t want it, fine! Go live off a homestead somewhere. Become a self-starter. You have the freedom to do that. As for me, I’ll get the booster when I can and continue participating in community with others. 
 

I’m so sick of people screeching “government overreach!” Every person I know who has died or been hospitalized has been unvaccinated. I’ve been told it’s the Mark of the Beast (tm), liquified babies, poison, that it will render me infertile, and that it will hurt my breastfeeding son. Honestly, I am tired of the lies and the crap.

 


 

 

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My husband today: "I am SO TIRED of my students getting covid." He has one in the hospital (we don't KNOW it's covid, but he was out sick for a week and then he got an e-mail that he was hospitalized). So, yeah. I'm happy. Schools next, please. 

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I'm glad. It isn't fair for vaccinated folks to have to take the risk of working beside unvaccinated AND untested co-workers-many of whom are also the same ones who tend to be lax on masking. And it's not like there wasn't plenty of time for people to choose to get vaccinated. I would have considered it overreach 6 months ago. Now, you've had a chance, and if you're not vaccinated and refuse to be, getting tested weekly seems like a reasonable compromise. If you truly can't get vaccinated, getting tested weekly means that you can go in and get monoclonal antibodies early on. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, kokotg said:

come on, Bill--you know that's not fair. Not wearing a seat belt only gives you a chance to kill YOURSELF. 

Not true, if you live they are required to stabilize you at the hospital and if you need long term care due to being in a vegetative state or die with dependents the taxpayers pick up the tab.

Eta:  I know you're being sarcastic, just have to add my bit about putting the problem on society because so many people genuinely believe this is really a personal choice.

Edited by Syllieann
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4 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

Not true, if you live they are required to stabilize you at the hospital and if you're a veggie or die with dependents the taxpayers pick up the tab.

Eta:  I know you're being sarcastic, just have to add my bit about putting the problem on society because so many people genuinely believe this is really a personal choice.

I find your post offensive. Some of the things I read on this forum make me really sad. 

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15 minutes ago, kokotg said:

My husband today: "I am SO TIRED of my students getting covid." He has one in the hospital (we don't KNOW it's covid, but he was out sick for a week and then he got an e-mail that he was hospitalized). So, yeah. I'm happy. Schools next, please. 

I've been wondering, but haven't been able to confirm, whether it will apply to school employees. 

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40 minutes ago, Ailaena said:


I think this is a hardcore political topic, but I have to say that I think this will cause a certain number of people to see proof of a conspiracy and cause them to be further alienated.   

What would even make sense as far as a conspiracy in this case? If the president is requiring everyone to get vaccinated, and it’s primarily people who don’t support him who are the ones not getting vaccinated, do people think he’s poisoning his own supporters? It doesn’t even make sense.  Like, I honestly wonder if this pandemic is going to affect the results of the next election. 

22 minutes ago, GoodnightMoogle said:

I think that if we want to participate in society, concessions have to be made. We pay into it. We pay taxes, so we can conveniently drive on roads, and use libraries, and solicit firemen and women to come and put all our fires out. We may pay more in taxes than we ever actually get out of the system, but we do it so that everyone in our society has access to these benefits.

Vaccines are the same way. Getting a little jab to protect your neighbor and the vulnerable is the price people must pay if they want access to most of the benefits society has to offer. I see no problem with the mandate. They aren’t coming to your door and forcing it into your arms. They aren’t hauling people off to jail. They are simply asking you to get it if you want to continue working alongside others in places with large numbers. In order to keep people safe and healthy! It’s honestly so ridiculous. 
 

If you don’t want it, fine! Go live off a homestead somewhere. Become a self-starter. You have the freedom to do that. As for me, I’ll get the booster when I can and continue participating in community with others. 
 

I’m so sick of people screeching “government overreach!” Every person I know who has died or been hospitalized has been unvaccinated. I’ve been told it’s the Mark of the Beast (tm), liquified babies, poison, that it will render me infertile, and that it will hurt my breastfeeding son. Honestly, I am tired of the lies and the crap.


 

QFT. The entire thing. This sums up my thoughts as well. 

14 minutes ago, Toocrazy!! said:

I am vaccinated, but there is a difference between injecting something inside your body and wearing a hard hat. 

I agree that’s definitely a big difference, but also, we’re in the middle of a global pandemic. And people can choose the testing option if they refuse to be vaccinated. Extreme circumstances call for different things sometimes than what would be appropriate under other circumstances. Like during war, all kinds of things can happen. People can even be required to go to war, which is crazy. Having to either get a vaccine which will likely keep you from getting very ill or dying or to get tested really aren’t that crazy during a global crisis that’s headed towards two years on. It really makes no sense at this point for people to refuse to be part of the solution to that degree. (Obviously, all usual caveats apply. But we all know the caveats aren’t the ones were talking about. They’re not the ones causing the problems.)

Edited by KSera
Forgot to reply to parr
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16 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I disagree with the mandate. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in court. Also, curious why the USPS is exempt. 

I believe it's because their employees belong to a union. Also, I think they are considered to be a different kind of agency from other federal agencies. 

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11 minutes ago, Ailaena said:


I didn’t even get to the end of the title when I cracked up.

But in all seriousness, making fun of people doesn’t bring them to your side and we need everybody to stand together while navigating a pandemic and the whole thing just terrifies me if I think about it for too long. 

At some point, I just don’t want to stick with such people on their self-made titanic. That’s kinda how I feel about it at this point. And I hate it. But if they are going to force desperate exhausted HCWs to help patients based on most likely to survive - which is the vaccinated - then I’m kinda out of patience with them if they wanna get cranky bc their feelings are hurt while still refusing to get the blasted jab. And I’m so over so-called claims of government overreach. Bc we will all be aging these medical billed for at least a decade in one way or another and most likely via the government stepping in - but those same people won’t complain about overreach then. They’ll be too busy grateful to still have a roof and food and oh yeah, being alive to have it.

In all the history of mankind, we have never all stood together.  And I’m not going to stand with someone that’s flat out wrong just so they can have the illusion of solidarity warm fuzzies, that’s more likely to end up just being a delusional fever.

8 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I'm not in favor of government mandates, so I am very against this announcement. I wonder if the next step will be requiring proof of vaccination for Welfare? Social Security benefits? Wic? Unemployment?

You may not know that depending on the state they live in - people may have to do many things to get some or all of those things. Drug testing for example for unemployment or SNAP in some states.

I don’t like it either. But since there’s no carrot cure for stupid - here we are reduced to using sticks to get people to get a vaccine that 18 months ago we were all desperately praying for. 

8 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

Private employers, fine. Government telling private employers what they have to make their employees do? Nope. (And yes, I believe this about a LOT of existing government departments like OSHA & the FDA. I'm consistently anti-government overreach.

I don’t think national security and domestic safety are over-reach. I think it’s the bare minimum a government that wants to be sustainable for generations should safeguard. I appreciate having a base level of confidence about medications that literally keep my husband alive, that literally mean blue collar workers aren’t in 3rd world sweat shops, and that my food is mostly what it says it is and reaches my table mostly safe to eat.

These government and union regulations were usually not borne out of nothing.  They were created as a result of hundreds to thousands of people’s literal blood, sweat and tears. And they were usually enacted bc tycoons and barons rarely were moved out of simple human decently to do it. I’m grateful previous generations fought for those regulations so that my generation and, please God, my children‘s generation, will live healthier longer lives.

Frankly I don’t think our government has done near enough in this area for decades. And I fear the price we will all pay for it will last decades longer. 

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4 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

 

I agree that’s definitely a big difference, but also, we’re in the middle of a global pandemic. And people can choose the testing option if they refuse to be vaccinated. Extreme circumstances call for different things sometimes than what would be appropriate under other circumstances. Like during war, all kinds of things can happen. People can even be required to go to war, which is crazy. Having to either get a vaccine which will likely keep you from getting very ill or dying or to get tested really aren’t that crazy during a global crisis that’s headed towards two years on. It really makes no sense at this point for people to refuse to be part of the solution to that degree. (Obviously, all usual caveats apply. But we all know the caveats aren’t the ones were talking about. They’re not the ones causing the problems.)

The draft analogy is really interesting and apt, I think. I mean, I have big issues with the idea of a draft (particularly as the mother of 4 boys), but I wonder how many people who oppose vaccine mandates do. It's difficult to imagine arguing that getting a vaccine is a greater sacrifice to make for the public good than actually going to war (which also comes with lots of mandatory vaccines). 

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1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

What do you guys think? 

Its about time. The vaccine is free, available at a convenient location near everyone, it has been given to 5 billion people already, it is approved by the FDA and we need to end this pandemic. My patience wore out a long time ago.

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I'm pro-vax. My whole family is vaxxed. My son was in the vaccine trial. I'm friends with the county health director who's always pushing the vaccine. I wish people would just get the vaccination so we might have a chance to get rid of this someday soon. But no, no, no to this mandate. I think people are going to fight back big time and this is going to have the opposite effect. People who still might have been convinced will dig in and refuse. Go read responses to the mandate all over the internet. I think it's overreach and a big mistake.

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This is awful. This is why we needed to push back and fight executive orders years ago. This is not the authority or position that the president has. This needs to be left up to individual businesses to decide. This opens the door for far too much. We opened the door to executive orders and that will never go away. What comes after this mandate? 

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It's not good for one person to be able to issue an order like this. People already forgot who was in office less than a year ago and the future presidents we could have issuing these decrees. I'm frankly terrified of the wrong person getting ahold of this kind of power and I don't think this is going to stop covid or variants, if Israel and the UK are any indication.

I am fully vaccinated. I want everyone possible to get vaccinated. The vaccines are amazing! I do not support stripping people of their livelihood or face invasive medical testing, nor fining employers who have already been slammed by the pandemic pre-vaccine and are now desperate for employees. Public health policy by definition isn't (or shouldn't be) about penalties and ruining people. Isn't forcing someone out of a job for whatever reason just putting the same burden on the public system in a different way than if they got really sick with covid? Or forcing employers to carry yet another burden during this thing??

Also the thing he said about protecting vaccinated workers from the unvaccinated doesn't make any sense scientifically. My vaccine protects me and it works. If it didn't work, that comment would make more sense. And is there any option for providing for natural immunity? Or the idea that making everyone get vaccinated is still resulting in tons of cases? What happens when this doesn't work and the NE and other states see their fall/winter wave despite high vax rates? How far do we go in mandating people do things in order to work to support themselves and their families?

This is just scary that no one thinks back like two years and having someone mandate everyone get bleach injections or the like. Or if that person had two high-ranking FDA vaccine experts resign during his term because of his administration's meddling in the process. It would have been HUGE two years ago. Now no one cares and we're all forced to get the thing that no one wanted to take under the last guy and warp speed.  The ends won't justify the means because we will get another of the last guy in office who will use this power for ungood.

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35 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

And the complaints I've seen saying, "governments don't get to tell private businesses what to do" is hogwash. Um, child labor laws, paid overtime, FMLA, safety rules and regulations, etc etc etc. 

Yep. I'm against the federal government requiring private employers to do all those things.

I'm also anti-draft, especially for women. And I'm against the federal government using our tax dollars to pressure states into 55 mph speed limits (obviously a very old reference) or passing motorcycle helmet laws.

I'm absolutely for people voluntarily choosing to get fully vaccinated. I'm for people choosing to wear masks. I'm totally ok with private businesses choosing to require their customers to mask or their employees to get vaccinated (hopefully with medical exemptions). But the federal government requiring these same things -- by executive order? Nope.

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I guess I don't see how there was an alternative to a mandate like this. Everything I've read (and this is not my area of expertise) says that we need to reach a certain vaccination rate. We're not going to get there without a mandate. 

This isn't a nice way to get where we need to be but how else will we get there and what the potential consequences to all of us if we don't? 

I know that people are freaking about it but the loudest voices don't always represent the majority. The majority of American adults are already vaccinated. 

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Also, I think this is hugely classist. Most of the people who had covid already and have natural immunity got it because they had to work in person because they had no choice. A lot of them were delivering, preparing, processing all the stuff for the people who had the luxury of staying home. Look at the demographics of who hasn't gotten the vaccine. It's not as simple as red and blue even if you can see a disparity that way. Look at color. Look at income level. Look at blue vs. white collar. Some guy who got covid 10 months ago working some crap job in a chicken processing plant is going to be fired or get a nasal swab once a week because he is slightly scared the government might be screwing him on the vaccine it promises will make his life better? When has the government ever helped him out? And how can undocumented workers be anything but scared of proving ID and vaccination status to their employers or just be let go...to do what? And we have thousands more of them here now that need more help than ever. 

How is this us versus them going to go? They are all dirty and unclean and just need to be sent to the camps if they won't vaccinate? 

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My brother used to work for a city sewer department. You know what you had to do if you got even a scratch that broke skin on the job when he worked there? Mandatory tetanus shot.  Yes the vaccine was required to get the job too. But you know how you find out the limits of how long the vax is effective? By just not giving to someone at risk and seeing if they die. So any risk - and paperwork has to be done and a vax given.  Any space longer than 1 month since the last vax meant you had to get it again. Sure you could refuse it but the union would boot you and you risked loosing benefits and the job.  Brother said it didn’t take long for the workers to decide safety protocols were way more enjoyable than the paperwork and another shot.  Which is stupid. Because they literally worked in sewers. You’d think it’d be a no brainer to A) avoid skin contact much less breaking skin contact and B) hells yes bring on all the damn vaccines and antibiotics bc they just walked underground ankle to waste-deep in the everything that the people of this city put in their toilets. But nope. Brother said maybe 1:10 new hires would stick bc they were ticked about getting a vaccine and thought the rules were for sissies. And that was his frustration 15 years ago when he retired.

If everyone wants to quit their job over it  - well. Thanks for making an opening for my middle-aged husband who has been unemployed for nearly 3 months. He is current on all his vaccines and will happily take that desk job ASAP.  

We can’t even fathom the luxury of health and wealth that affords a person to tell themselves we don’t need this vaccine and would quit a good paying/well benefited job instead of take the jab.  So it’s really hard to drum up much pity for such complaints at the moment in my house. 

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Just now, Murphy101 said:

My brother used to work for a city sewer department. You know what you had to do if you got even a scratch that broke skin on the job when he worked there? Mandatory tetanus shot.  Yes the vaccine was required to get the job too. But you know how you find out the limits of how long the vax is effective? By just not giving to someone at risk and seeing if they die. So any risk - and paperwork has to be done and a vax given.  Any space longer than 1 month since the last vax meant you had to get it again. Sure you could refuse it but the union would boot you and you risked loosing benefits and the job.  Brother said it didn’t take long for the workers to decide safety protocols were way more enjoyable than the paperwork and another shot.  Which is stupid. Because they literally worked in sewers. You’d think it’d be a no brainer to A) avoid skin contact much less breaking skin contact and B) hells yes bring on all the damn vaccines and antibiotics bc they just walked underground ankle to waste-deep in the everything that the people of this city put in their toilets. But nope. Brother said maybe 1:10 new hires would stick bc they were ticked about getting a vaccine and thought the rules were for sissies. And that was his frustration 15 years ago when he retired.

If everyone wants to quit their job over it  - well. Thanks for making an opening for my middle-aged husband who has been unemployed for nearly 3 months. He is current on all his vaccines and will happily take that desk job ASAP.  

We can’t even fathom the luxury of health and wealth that affords a person to tell themselves we don’t need this vaccine and would quit a good paying/well benefited job instead of take the jab.  So it’s really hard to drum up much pity for such complaints at the moment in my house. 

In my state there are way more jobs open than people willing to fill them. Desk jobs, fast food, engineering, ANYTHING. People are desperate for talent.

But it's not the good-paying job people that are reluctant to trust their health to the government, in my experience. No, the people with good paying jobs are already jabbed, still working at home, and having everything delivered. 

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2 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Also, I think this is hugely classist. Most of the people who had covid already and have natural immunity got it because they had to work in person because they had no choice. 

I'm so tired of this. My husband has been working in person in full classrooms for a year now. HE didn't have a choice. And he wants people to get their damn vaccines so that he and his students are safe from a deadly disease. Look at the demographics of who chose remote schooling last year. 

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1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

In my state there are way more jobs open than people willing to fill them. Desk jobs, fast food, engineering, ANYTHING. People are desperate for talent.

But it's not the good-paying job people that are reluctant to trust their health to the government, in my experience. No, the people with good paying jobs are already jabbed, still working at home, and having everything delivered. 

Yeah well. That’s what we keep hearing companies say but it’s absolutely not the experience of anyone we are meeting looking for jobs and it’s not the experience of those reading the ads either. 

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You know who else doesn't have a choice? My grandmother. She's 93 and in an assisted living place, in and out of lockdown because every few weeks some unvaccinated employee turns up positive and she's stuck in her room with no visitors again. She spent last Christmas in lockdown alone in her room. But, sure, make sure to protect the FREEDOM of the people working at her assisted living place by keeping my grandmother locked in a room alone.  

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5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Yeah well. That’s what we keep hearing companies say but it’s absolutely not the experience of anyone we are meeting looking for jobs and it’s not the experience of those reading the ads either. 

It probably depends on what job. My kids started jobs, got better jobs, had employers giving them overtime, had other employers try to poach them, and were turning down jobs because they were already too busy.  

 

Perhaps it is mainly entry level. Although, obviously there is a huge need for HCW but it takes time to train to switch to that. A lot of the disconnect might be that employees skills may not be matching up with employers needs.

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36 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

I'm pro-vax. My whole family is vaxxed. My son was in the vaccine trial. I'm friends with the county health director who's always pushing the vaccine. I wish people would just get the vaccination so we might have a chance to get rid of this someday soon. But no, no, no to this mandate. I think people are going to fight back big time and this is going to have the opposite effect. People who still might have been convinced will dig in and refuse. Go read responses to the mandate all over the internet. I think it's overreach and a big mistake.

I agree - let it be said, this decision alone will likely have major election impact in the future and that is nearly as scary as the mandate. This was an incredible overreach. The government has zero right deciding what medical procedure, including injections that I do or do not take. 

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21 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Yeah well. That’s what we keep hearing companies say but it’s absolutely not the experience of anyone we are meeting looking for jobs and it’s not the experience of those reading the ads either. 

I don’t know... maybe it’s state dependent? All three of my college students have gotten major raises in the past month to keep them from leaving - to $19 and change - CNA, $17 for fast food, and $11 for dining hall work study because all three of them work in places seeing extreme shortages. It seems like everyone is hiring here and desperately. 
... But we’ve been open so our economy hasn’t taken the same hit. Perhaps the same where she’s from?

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1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I believe it's because their employees belong to a union. Also, I think they are considered to be a different kind of agency from other federal agencies. 

I heard from the spouse of a USPS worker they've already been vaccinated. Many, many months ago.

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I find myself thinking about all the people who have died of Covid, desperate for something to save them wishing they had been vaccinated, and I think how many of them would have been saved by this. Thousands upon thousands of people. 

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I also wonder what people suggest we do about our hospitals being overwhelmed under the crushing load of a vaccine preventable illness? My parents are somewhere where the hospitals are very overloaded and I’m extremely concerned what would happen to them if they need a hospital any time soon. They have been so careful during this pandemic to stay healthy, and the thought that care could be unavailable (or a nightmare due to the load, like for Spryte’s mom recently) due to the hospitals being so full just seems unacceptable when we have the ability to prevent that. The current state of many hospitals is an emergency in itself. 

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1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

Yeah well. That’s what we keep hearing companies say but it’s absolutely not the experience of anyone we are meeting looking for jobs and it’s not the experience of those reading the ads either. 

I guess I'm not getting my info from companies, as in theoretical. My husband's company is hiring engineers, account managers, sales like gangbusters and still have open positions. I don't know what to make of that compared to your experience, but I know in his industry his company is not alone in having this issue. Every single business downtown almost to a shop has a hiring sign in the window. The fast food places are paying $15 base pay and have sign-on bonuses. Places are reducing hours because they don't have staff to keep doors open. Delivery times are a nightmare because UPS and FedEx need drivers here. I am sure it's not like that everywhere but there are definitely a lot of places in the US having staffing issues.

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