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How to avoid getting sued in Texas?


Ordinary Shoes
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Here's how I see the scam going down. 

Person A gets together with a lawyer. Person A threatens to sue any random person in Texas. Person goes to that unlucky random person and files suit. The lawyer defends that random person and gets the legal fees and shares it with Person A. 

Person A faces no consequences from bringing the suit. 

Some smart lawyer is already thinking about this and people who have been in Texas for the last 2 days are in trouble. 

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3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Here's how I see the scam going down. 

Person A gets together with a lawyer. Person A threatens to sue any random person in Texas. Person goes to that unlucky random person and files suit. The lawyer defends that random person and gets the legal fees and shares it with Person A. 

Person A faces no consequences from bringing the suit. 

Some smart lawyer is already thinking about this and people who have been in Texas for the last 2 days are in trouble. 

Lawyers can't do that. It would violate several rules of ethics, including sharing a fee with a non-lawyer and conflicts of interest.

I agree that there will be lawsuits, but this scenario is extremely unlikely. Contrary to popular belief, lawyers are bound by strict ethical codes (it's just that those codes don't always align with what the public expects in terms of ethics).

Edited by lauraw4321
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At some point, we all have to stand up against this insanity. The pocketbook is the only thing that talks so if tourism to Texas ground to a halt, if out of state college students dwindled to nothing, etc. it would make an impression. I wish a LOT of governors would get on the airwaves and denounce Texas in the strongest terms! 

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1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Do you really think this is going to be limited in Texas? 

One political party has been working toward this for my entire lifetime and I’m nearly 50. 

 

Yep, Florida is already looking into how to emulate the Texas law.

I was born before Roe v. Wade. I was in high school when abortion was still illegal. I knew girls in high school who had back alley abortions. It was horrible. 

Texas is Gilead. The rest of the south is going to follow soon.

 

59 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

The WSJ points out from a conservative perspective how absolutely stupid that TX law is and how, because we live in a country where legal precedent matters, is will bite conservatives in the butt.  https://www.mediaite.com/news/wsj-editorial-board-blasts-texas-abortion-law-blunder-an-awful-precedent-that-conservatives-should-hate/?fbclid=IwAR0rWyzxkqn8pWCcyr91ykqdEHeO1KouesjstMJpc0pc6B6N54EMyXT6xh8
 

I can't read the full essay because it's behind a paywall, but I hope it does come back and bite them. The Florida Parents Bill of Rights that our governor pushed through is exactly what bit him and caused him to lose his executive order banning mask mandates by school boards. Of course he's appealing it on the Florida taxpayer's dime but hopefully it will be his own stupid law that keeps biting him.

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38 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

I think there are exceptions for the life of the mother. But the fact that doctors / nurses now have to think twice is frightening. 

 

14 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

And to avoid constantly defending themselves in lawsuits, many hospitals will probably go an ethics board approval for any treatment that could affect pregnancy outcomes negatively. With pre-eclampsia and many other conditions, minutes and hours count. Waiting for a board to convene and decide is a killer. BUT, in all likelihood a career saver for the staff, and a lawsuit averted because chances are lawyers won't take cases in which a board collectively decided best course. If they do take those cases, it is far less likely they will win any substantiation money. Meanwhile, the family really won't be able to sue for wrongful death/negligence because the law makes any practitioner, family member authorizing treatment, etc. an accessory to the outcome. So the default, "right path" will be a multi-layered bureaucratic nightmare that takes hours if not days to come to conclusion, but then be somewhat lawsuit resistant.

It will be medieval.

I had Class A HELLP onset at 22 weeks gestation, in a state that termed viability at 20 weeks. The result was that the hospital staff HAD to attempt to deliver a known non-viable fetus alive, no matter the cost to me. After induction failed, I ended up with an emergency C-secrion, with platelets in the basement, my body actively destroying red blood cells, and blood pressure near stroke range. I survived, but with permanent pain and PTSD symptoms. Finding out that my nightmare would have been prevented in almost any other state or country, including, at the time, Ireland and Italy, where the standard of care would have been a D&E led me to spend part of the next several years testifying at the state legislature. 

 

This TX law is going to lead to the deaths and long term disability of women. Period. It means that life of the mother situations even in the first trimester will result in doctors having to go through the motions to protect themselves. Because any pregnancy can be terminated by C-section and termed a delivery. Of course, the uterus will never be able to expand as well again, and the earlier it happens, the more likely any further pregnancy will lead to uterine rupture-if it can implant at all. 

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1 hour ago, happi duck said:

And no one can say "then don't help with abortions" because lives will be turned upside down by overzealous "deputies" making false accusations.  

They've weaponized their citizenry.

 

Yes; I am reminded of the fictional Inquisitorial Squad in the fifth book of the Harry Potter series. Squeal on your neighbors! Brownie points from the Ministry! Fascism...

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1 hour ago, Vintage81 said:

If you don’t live in Texas, why are you concerned?

"The head of the [Arizona] state's premier anti-abortion organization said Thursday she is looking to use the newly enacted Texas ban on the terminating a pregnancy after fetal heartbeat has been detected as a template for legislation here." Article on AZ Capitol Times this morning https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2021/09/02/texas-abortion-law-template-for-arizona/

Everyone in the US should be concerned about this.

For the record, I am completely pro-life, and I would not "aid or abet" someone in getting an abortion. So my objection to this bill isn't because I'm concerned about getting sued. My concern about this law is how it infringing and curtails the rights of Americans and is hijacking our courts to work as bully threat tactics. This law is flawed, it is un-American, it's the proverbial landslide of a slippery slope. This is not the way to dissuade abortions or save lives. This is just totalitarianism and insanity on a signed piece of paper, using our justice system to bully others. This isn't pro-life, this will do nothing to save lives, this is posturing and bad law. 

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11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

At some point, we all have to stand up against this insanity. The pocketbook is the only thing that talks so if tourism to Texas ground to a halt, if out of state college students dwindled to nothing, etc. it would make an impression. I wish a LOT of governors would get on the airwaves and denounce Texas in the strongest terms! 

And pro-lifers like me objecting.  I don't want to prosecute women even though I don't agree with abortion being justifiable under any circumstances.  I want everyone to have access to contraception paid for by the taxpayers and use 2 methods at a time, every time to avoid unplanned pregnancy.  Do I agree with fornication?  No, but that doesn't mean I want to insult or punish anyone who chooses to fornicate. That's none of my business.  I want churches and the government to provide basic services to anyone who needs them for contraception, childcare, job training, housing, transportation,etc.

Pro-life leadership has to go and be replaced with pragmatic, compassionate, non-judgemental people who want to show their love for Jesus by loving others the way He did.  Did the law say the adulterous woman should be stoned?  Yes.  Did He do anything to help them stone her? No! To the contrary, He rescued her and loved her.

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29 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

Lawyers can't do that. It would violate several rules of ethics, including sharing a fee with a non-lawyer and conflicts of interest.

I agree that there will be lawsuits, but this scenario is extremely unlikely. Contrary to popular belief, lawyers are bound by strict ethical codes (it's just that those codes don't always align with what the public expects in terms of ethics).

Yes, but it just takes one unethical person to cause the problem. 

There are definitely going to be scams. 

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12 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

"The head of the [Arizona] state's premier anti-abortion organization said Thursday she is looking to use the newly enacted Texas ban on the terminating a pregnancy after fetal heartbeat has been detected as a template for legislation here." Article on AZ Capitol Times this morning https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2021/09/02/texas-abortion-law-template-for-arizona/

Everyone in the US should be concerned about this.

For the record, I am completely pro-life, and I would not "aid or abet" someone in getting an abortion. So my objection to this bill isn't because I'm concerned about getting sued. My concern about this law is how it infringing and curtails the rights of Americans and is hijacking our courts to work as bully threat tactics. This law is flawed, it is un-American, it's the proverbial landslide of a slippery slope. This is not the way to dissuade abortions or save lives. This is just totalitarianism and insanity on a signed piece of paper, using our justice system to bully others. This isn't pro-life, this will do nothing to save lives, this is posturing and bad law. 

But remember you don't actually have to do anything to be sued. 

Your pregnant friend asks you to babysit and she goes out of state for an abortion. You're liable under this law even if you didn't know why she needed you to babysit. Under the law you'd be liable for at least $10K plus legal fees. 

If you babysit for your pregnant friend and she miscarries, you could be sued. The plaintiff won't prevail but you're be responsible for the legal fees associated with defending yourself. And what if your friend refuses to cooperate with your defense and provide evidence that she miscarried? 

 

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I am in Texas. A few of my own concerns:

1.) I developed HELLP syndrome and had an emergency csection. How would a medical crisis such as this be impacted? As someone mentioned above, minutes count in such a situation. What about my friend that opted to carry a carry a baby with severe chromosome defects, with no chance of survival? 
2.) I have a family member with mental health issues. She routinely threatens government reporting and calls the police on anything she disagrees with, such as our homeschooling or my sibling’s choice in spouse. She is now empowered to sue anyone, with no cause or justification. She now has one more tool to hold over anyone’s head. 
3.) I am an online book seller. I had a book damaged in shipping and the buyer (a retired lawyer) sent me a certified letter threatening to sue me for damages. Never mind that the book was insured and he was out nothing, he was still going to sue me for $10,000 for a $100 book that the shipping company had already reimbursed. We looked up his law certificate and he passed the bar in 1950-something, so we figured he had to be close to 95 years old. Probably now just some cranky old man. Still. It was an eye opening experience. Imagine if he can now threaten a lawsuit on… anyone? Under the new texas law, an taxi driver can be sued if someone thinks their passenger may have had an abortion and they were the one to drive the person to the medical facility. 

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I thought this was a really helpful post by Heather Cox Richardson on how the pro-life movement came to be, and how things may play out in Texas.  I'm not sure where this link will send you on her Facebook site, but I'm referring to her post from September 2, beginning "In the light of day today..."

https://www.facebook.com/heathercoxrichardson

It will be interesting to follow her posts on the new Texas law. 

 

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I wish someone would push through a law in Texas where a person can transfer the father's parental rights over to the state, somehow forcing Texas to become the legally responsible parent by adopting this fetus in utero.  If Texas wants more children (provided they come through the vagina and not the border) then they should cowboy up and pay the bills for any woman who was a victim of forced birth.  I know it's completely unreasonable, but here we are.  I also cannot believed someone asked "Why do you care if you're not in Texas?"  ?????????????

I'm so so so tired of these politicians whose only 'job' is to get elected.  It's getting really gross.

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18 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, but it just takes one unethical person to cause the problem. 

There are definitely going to be scams. 

Yes, this is true, I was just trying to get across that I am not concerned about this bill just because of how it could affect me personally, but because it allows the courts to be weaponized against the citizenry in favor of a select few that can stay anonymous in their wreaking of havoc. With no opportunity to “Face your accuser” and the state blindly accusing you on the word of a masked face at a keyboard, this is a direct “slap in the face” to the 6th amendment. Among many other concerns it presents. 

Edited by Moonhawk
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1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

Plan B still legal although rumors are they are going after it. Also important to note there are weight limits to plan b. I think 150 pounds? It’s not effective in people who weigh more. 

Ok, how did I not know this? I haven't been under that in a long long time. Neither are the friends I know who might need it. 

38 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

 

 

I can't read the full essay because it's behind a paywall, but I hope it does come back and bite them. The Florida Parents Bill of Rights that our governor pushed through is exactly what bit him and caused him to lose his executive order banning mask mandates by school boards. Of course he's appealing it on the Florida taxpayer's dime but hopefully it will be his own stupid law that keeps biting him.

 

31 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'm hoping Karma kicks in and everyone who had a hand in pushing this law through gets sued daily.

This. I hope some pro-bono lawyers volunteer to just keep suing the dang legislators. 

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59 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

I had Class A HELLP onset at 22 weeks gestation, in a state that termed viability at 20 weeks. The result was that the hospital staff HAD to attempt to deliver a known non-viable fetus alive, no matter the cost to me. After induction failed, I ended up with an emergency C-secrion, with platelets in the basement, my body actively destroying red blood cells, and blood pressure near stroke range. I survived, but with permanent pain and PTSD symptoms. Finding out that my nightmare would have been prevented in almost any other state or country, including, at the time, Ireland and Italy, where the standard of care would have been a D&E led me to spend part of the next several years testifying at the state legislature. 

 

This TX law is going to lead to the deaths and long term disability of women. Period. It means that life of the mother situations even in the first trimester will result in doctors having to go through the motions to protect themselves. Because any pregnancy can be terminated by C-section and termed a delivery. Of course, the uterus will never be able to expand as well again, and the earlier it happens, the more likely any further pregnancy will lead to uterine rupture-if it can implant at all. 

I kind of wondered about this myself.  I had to end a pregnancy at 28 weeks, so of course the baby was viable, but still, we ended the pregnancy via c section and had no idea if the baby would survive it.  Technically it was a termination of pregnancy.

I personally am against abortion at any stage, and I have carried a life threatening, unexpected pregnancy despite multiple doctors telling me to terminate.  If I somehow got pregnant again, the situation would be more dire and I would still continue the pregnancy.  So I don’t speak about abortion from a place of never needing or even considering it.  But this law is nothing but a legal game.  It won’t end abortion.  The way to decrease abortion is good healthcare, easy access to birth control, investment in women’s education, investment in child care and social programs.  Texas is just trying to unethically play a legal game. 

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1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

 I also cannot believed someone asked "Why do you care if you're not in Texas?"  ?????????????

I think you’re referring to my post, but that’s not what I said.

OP started off by saying that she didn’t want to get sued under the new law.

She then said that she didn’t live in TX and was going to avoid going to TX.

So, I was just wondering why she’d be concerned about being sued under the new TX law if she never plans on being in TX. 

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1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

At some point, we all have to stand up against this insanity. The pocketbook is the only thing that talks so if tourism to Texas ground to a halt, if out of state college students dwindled to nothing, etc. it would make an impression. I wish a LOT of governors would get on the airwaves and denounce Texas in the strongest terms! 

Texas doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Being denounced by a bunch of blue-state governors won't make anyone here rethink the law. They won't care one little bit. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Vintage81 said:

I think you’re referring to my post, but that’s not what I said.

OP started off by saying that she didn’t want to get sued under the new law.

She then said that she didn’t live in TX and was going to avoid going to TX.

So, I was just wondering why she’d be concerned about being sued under the new TX law if she never plans on being in TX. 

In my post, I asked other posters what they were going to do to avoid being sued. This was my post. 

Quote

 don't want to get sued under that new law. There are no penalties for bringing false claims. Anyone can bring suit against anyone and you'd going to be on the hook for legal fees from defending yourself. 

So there is now a huge risk of liability for anyone who steps foot in the state of Texas. 

I don't live in Texas so I think avoiding Texas is the best option for me. 

What are your plans for avoiding liability in Texas? What about those of you who live there? 

Basically any contact with a pregnant woman in Texas creates risk of liability. I'd definitely be worried about liability if I lived in Texas. 

What are the plans of the people who live in Texas to avoid being sued? 

 

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I absolutely agree with Texas that abortion should be illegal after six weeks. Intentionally killing another human being is morally wrong, except when necessary to save another human being's life. [ETA: And in that case, every effort should be made to save both lives, and the death of one should never be the goal or intention, even if it is a tragic effect of necessary interventions.]

That said, this law is ridiculous and dangerous and I can't imagine who thought it was a good idea. Not to mention the hypocrisy of this in a state that has proved by their actions that they actually *do not care* about protecting fellow human beings. It's about something else, be it political points or money or showmanship. 

And to answer the OP, I have no plans to go to Texas. Like, ever.

Edited by MercyA
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54 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Mom in AZ, are you seriously saying that even if the pregnancy will ABSOLUTELY kill the mother and the fetus will ABSOLUTELY die, you "don't agree with abortion under any circumstances"?

Yes, I personally went through with a pregnancy where we knew at 11 weeks the placenta could tear off because it hadn't attached properly and was bleeding sporadically, and at a later stage of pregnancy that would mean massive internal bleeding causing death to me and infant death in utero. That happened at 40 weeks and the placenta came out completely detached before daughter did. We both lived through it. It was miraculous, but we did survive it.  She had no brain damage at all. Even if I didn't survive, which I thought was a very real possibility, I see no difference in a mother willing to risk her life for a child in the womb vs. out of the womb anymore that I take issue with a police officer, soldier, EMT, bystander or anyone else in a high risk job/situation where they know there is a real chance of dying to protect and serve anyone else-it's all the same category to me. If you get upset at the idea that someone would willingly risk their life for someone else, then you have to be upset by all those situations to maintain philosophical consistency.

There is no absolutely.  Sorry, I know people assume there is, but that's not the case, even in ectopic pregnancies. There are ectopic pregnancies that have gone to term outside the uterus and when you know there's an ectopic pregnancy you can be on watch and ready for ruptures with life saving intervention for the mother and possibly the child if the pregnancy is advanced far enough.  Common? Nope, not at all.  Does it happen? Yes.

And dying out of the womb isn't somehow worse than dying outside the womb.  So a baby only lives a short time because the medical situation is not something we can fix.  OK. We try our best and hope for the best and if that isn't enough we love the baby for whatever amount of time s/he has on earth and medicate with hospice comfort measures until they die.  I'm not saying take "heroic measures" that are really euphemism for keeping a heart beating artificially just to label it "life" on life support or intervene to buy a few minutes or days or hours when there's no long term outlook.  I'm saying when you begin with the assumption there's no chance, you kill people like my middle daughter who beat the overwhelming odds stacked against her and turn things into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I know other people who were told their child was certain to suffer forever or certain to die, so they were advised to abort.  They didn't.  The doctors were wrong. Dead wrong. Those kids are thriving and independent and functional. Including one with only one hemisphere of his brain.  He walks with a limp, but otherwise functions normally. Another with genetic testing during pregnancy that showed all sorts of severe, certain death traits.  She lives a perfectly normal life with no symptoms of any of those things.

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I saw someone point out that the left could enact a similar law regarding guns, encouraging fellow citizens to sue each other.  This law would set a terrible, terrible precedent.  The people of Texas should be angry at seeing their tax dollars used to defend it. 

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I think this law is terrible for many reasons.I see it being used to the point that the court system becomes so clogged up that the system becomes useless for much of anything. I don’t think that the people that supported this law really thought through the consequences just to the legal system.

Edited by City Mouse
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26 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

If you get upset at the idea that someone would willingly risk their life for someone else, then you have to be upset by all those situations to maintain philosophical consistency.

 

It is the willingly part that I take issue with. Or rather, the idea that someone can be unwillingly forced to risk their lives for someone else. Especially when they have other children relying on them. 

 

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4 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't live in Texas so I think avoiding Texas is the best option for me. 

This is all that I could come up with! And, don't visit Texas altogether if you can avoid it and definitely advise your kids against applying to universities in Texas. And, I am passing up every single future career move for my family to Austin permanently. 

I sincerely think that there is a flurry of future litigation involved ... 

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I have spent the week thinking about the former clients I have had: 14 year olds raped by their mom’s boyfriend, 19yos in abusive relationships where the boyfriend prevented her from using birth control, and some others and have just been very sad. She already had a kid and I fed her and her kid saltine crackers from my purse because she hadn’t eaten that day.

I am pro-life. Pro-food stamps, pro-housing vouchers, pro-Medicaid for all who would financially qualify, pro-Headstart, pro-childcare, pro-access to birth control. All of those things lead to happier, healthier lives. I carried five kids AMA and nearly died three times. I chose pro-life for me and am also radically pro-choice for others. 
 

The road on what qualifies as medical slippery slope is a ugly one. What about my cousin’s wife this year who had a baby with trisomy? Hospice care involves heavy doses of morphine and it doesn’t cover all pain. Which is kinder? Stopping the heart gently at 18 weeks and delivering a baby in a controlled medical setting where the specialists are on hand to help mom who has a heart condition or waiting until labor starts (most don’t make it to term) and emergency delivering a baby who will experience pain and artificially causing death then through heavy morphine doses which depress respiration sats because you are trying to control the pain. Sometimes there are no good choices and no clear cut moral lines. Either way you have a hand in death because there is no path that leads to life. Should her hand be forced to cause suffering in a baby? 
 

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5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I have spent the week thinking about the former clients I have had: 14 year olds raped by their mom’s boyfriend, 19yos in abusive relationships where the boyfriend prevented her from using birth control, and some others and have just been very sad. She already had a kid and I fed her and her kid saltine crackers from my purse because she hadn’t eaten that day.

I am pro-life. Pro-food stamps, pro-housing vouchers, pro-Medicaid for all who would financially qualify, pro-Headstart, pro-childcare, pro-access to birth control. All of those things lead to happier, healthier lives. I carried five kids AMA and nearly died three times. I chose pro-life for me and am also radically pro-choice for others. 
 

The road on what qualifies as medical slippery slope is a ugly one. What about my cousin’s wife this year who had a baby with trisomy? Hospice care involves heavy doses of morphine and it doesn’t cover all pain. Which is kinder? Stopping the heart gently at 18 weeks and delivering a baby in a controlled medical setting where the specialists are on hand to help mom who has a heart condition or waiting until labor starts (most don’t make it to term) and emergency delivering a baby who will experience pain and artificially causing death then through heavy morphine doses which depress respiration sats because you are trying to control the pain. Sometimes there are no good choices and no clear cut moral lines. Either way you have a hand in death because there is no path that leads to life. Should her hand be forced to cause suffering in a baby? 
 

I couldn't have said it any better.   

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7 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I have spent the week thinking about the former clients I have had: 14 year olds raped by their mom’s boyfriend, 19yos in abusive relationships where the boyfriend prevented her from using birth control, and some others and have just been very sad. She already had a kid and I fed her and her kid saltine crackers from my purse because she hadn’t eaten that day.

I am pro-life. Pro-food stamps, pro-housing vouchers, pro-Medicaid for all who would financially qualify, pro-Headstart, pro-childcare, pro-access to birth control. All of those things lead to happier, healthier lives. I carried five kids AMA and nearly died three times. I chose pro-life for me and am also radically pro-choice for others. 
 

 

Yup. 

If people want to argue the ethics and philosophy of abortion, they are welcome to do so. AFTER we make sure every woman who wants her baby CAN have her baby without risking abuse, assault, starvation, lack of medical care, financial devastation, discrimination in employment, etc. Plus has safe housing, a good job, and easy access to quality care she can afford for herself and her kid. 

Let's all work together to handle that stuff, THEN we can debate the ethics of abortion for whatever percent of them is left. 

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5 hours ago, MEmama said:

Do you really think this is going to be limited in Texas? 

One political party has been working toward this for my entire lifetime and I’m nearly 50. 


Every woman in the US—and every man who cares about women—ought to be very, very afraid. When someone shows you who they are and all that.

I am afraid. Very, very afraid.

What is happening to our republic?

Bill

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1 hour ago, City Mouse said:

I think this law is terrible for many reasons.I see it being used to the point that the court system becomes so clogged up that the system becomes useless for much of anything. I don’t think that the people that supported this law really thought through the consequences just to the legal system.

 They knew what they were writing. They knew prosecutors would not prosecute cases in a heartbeat bill, the prosecutors informed them of that, so they wrote it up using citizens as the punishers. A certain party, especially in certain states, is using their smallish subset of  fanatics to fuel the entire party, and the rest go along with it as long as it keeps them in power. The question is, when will the normal, knowledgeable members of that party decide enough is enough.

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5 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

 

Are you serious?!?!

Legal precedent matters in the US, and establishing precedent where any rando can bring a civil suit against anyone they claim they think might have been involved in having or aiding someone in having an abortion is a radical departure from the due process and standards of proof we have in criminal courts.

I'm deeply concerned about women in TX having miscarriages and needing medical intervention (BTDT) since there have been cases in the past when abortion was illegal and medical staff was hesitant and/or unwilling to intervene to avoid liability.  You can't prove miscarriage (known medically as a spontaneous abortion) vs. induced abortion during or after the fact in most cases. When hemorrhaging is involved, immediate intervention is required-not time to dither and wonder what initiated it.

re: the bold -- that is my fear as well. It's terrifying, frankly. 

5 hours ago, Terabith said:

Another law that came into effect is that everyone can carry a gun now, even without a license.  This creates an additional level for vigilante justice against people who might possibly have been pregnant.  

This, IMO, is just silly, though. I mean, it's ridiculous, yes, that we've decided anyone can carry, licensed or not, BUT, I don't think it will lead to gobs and gobs and gobs more armed folks than we already had here, and I think those bent towards vigilantism likely already have gone through the hoops to arm themselves, and while we may *seem* like a state of lunatics, I just don't see this becoming an issue.  

Possibly a rise in gun incidents, but vigilante justice against pregnant/formerly pregnant/sought an abortion folks? I just don't see that happening at all. 

4 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

True. The case will be thrown but remember the defendant has to pay the legal fees regardless. 

Remember, SCOTUS has refused to overturn the law so there's no guarantee that the law will be overturned. 

Also, if I lived in the State of Texas I would be mad that my legislatures passed a bill that imposes huge risks to me with some hope that the court will throw it out in the future. 

Also the law specifically forbids defending yourself on the basis of the law being unconstitutional and requires that cases be tried in Texas courts. 

 

Yes, this (the bold). I am. We are. I was explaining it to my husband.....on the one hand, the likelihood of me, specifically, getting sued for this.....slim. On the other hand, say my neighbor has me watch the kids for her. Goes and seeks an (unknown to me) abortion, b/c she's overwhelmed with life at the moment and can't deal with being pregnant/having another baby.  Her husband, or perhaps her mom, or really *anyone at all -- even our other neighbor up the street*, could conceivably sue me/us for "aiding & abetting."  Suppose her husband didn't know she was seeking an abortion. Or he was on board, but her mom is upset she's "murdered" her grandbaby. Or whatever. Now we're being sued for this. 

So......do I just never babysit for a pregnant friend/neighbor? What if I don't know the friend/neighbor is pregnant?? 

I cannot believe our legislature passed a law saying "hey, guess what, *anybody at all* can now sue *anyone else* for helping someone get an abortion. Even if it's not true. Even if the person suing has no relationship whatsoever to the person who got the abortion. Even if they even suspect it. Or if they just get mad at the person who "helped" and want to seek revenge on them, and so, hey, sue them! That'll stick it to 'em! 

It is horrific.

4 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

"The head of the [Arizona] state's premier anti-abortion organization said Thursday she is looking to use the newly enacted Texas ban on the terminating a pregnancy after fetal heartbeat has been detected as a template for legislation here." Article on AZ Capitol Times this morning https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2021/09/02/texas-abortion-law-template-for-arizona/

Everyone in the US should be concerned about this.

For the record, I am completely pro-life, and I would not "aid or abet" someone in getting an abortion. So my objection to this bill isn't because I'm concerned about getting sued. My concern about this law is how it infringing and curtails the rights of Americans and is hijacking our courts to work as bully threat tactics. This law is flawed, it is un-American, it's the proverbial landslide of a slippery slope. This is not the way to dissuade abortions or save lives. This is just totalitarianism and insanity on a signed piece of paper, using our justice system to bully others. This isn't pro-life, this will do nothing to save lives, this is posturing and bad law. 

Right, this (the bolded). Exactly. 

15 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I am afraid. Very, very afraid.

What is happening to our republic?

Bill

Me, too, Bill. Me too. 

 

2 minutes ago, Idalou said:

 They knew what they were writing. They knew prosecutors would not prosecute cases in a heartbeat bill, the prosecutors informed them of that, so they wrote it up using citizens as the punishers. A certain party, especially in certain states, is using their smallish subset of  fanatics to fuel the entire party, and the rest go along with it as long as it keeps them in power. The question is, when will the normal, knowledgeable members of that party decide enough is enough.

some of us have been writing letters to our reps to no avail, and will definitely be voting differently next election. I think maybe hopefully a lot of us. Because there has just been so very much wrong this past year/18 months/legislative session. Things that got passed, that shouldn't have. Things that didn't pass, that should have. 

The voters, I think/hope/pray, are waking up.  Will it be in time, or too late, remains to be seen. 

I've never before in my life wished I lived somewhere else. I've always considered myself a Texan before an American (which is a pretty normal thing here in Texas, although I know it horrifies folks from other states to hear/say that). But this is just....horrific...and so much of what's gone on/gone undone this legislative session has me ashamed to admit out loud that I live here. 

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Well, bully for you, Homeschool Mom. This sort of unethical garbage is why my cousin grew up without a mother. Which, btw, given that the woman was Jewish, I don't know why her rabbi didn't shake some sense into her - because under Judaism, the first obligation is to the already alive person, the mother, not to the fetus which isn't alive until it takes its first breath.

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OMG, the Satanic Temple just requested access to the abortion pill to be used in religious ceremonies.  The precedent is peyote.  The "ritual" requires a medical examination.  The legal justification is religious freedom demands unrestricted access to this substance.  Curiouser and curiouser.  Your move, Texas. 

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I personally don’t have to worry much about getting tired up in any of this unless/until it spreads, but I might consider the risks of working with others outside of the state worthwhile.

It’s all only beginning to sink in for me. I have had multiple unexpected pregnancies. I’ve always chosen to continue them, except for one ectopic. But I was never 100% sure by 6 weeks.   I made very serious, very intentional decisions. 
Had the clock been ticking THAT fast, I cannot be certain that I would have come to the same conclusions. 
So it will not surprise me if rates increase when women are forced to rush their choice. Though that could be tempered by overall fear of being accused of different dates.

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GoDaddy just sent notice to the "pro-life" organization that hosts the whistleblower site that they have 24 hours to find another host. They are accused of violating the TOS. I'm actually a little troubled by this but it's inevitable that a law like this one escalates everything. 

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3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The road on what qualifies as medical slippery slope is a ugly one. What about my cousin’s wife this year who had a baby with trisomy? Hospice care involves heavy doses of morphine and it doesn’t cover all pain. Which is kinder? Stopping the heart gently at 18 weeks and delivering a baby in a controlled medical setting where the specialists are on hand to help mom who has a heart condition or waiting until labor starts (most don’t make it to term) and emergency delivering a baby who will experience pain and artificially causing death then through heavy morphine doses which depress respiration sats because you are trying to control the pain. Sometimes there are no good choices and no clear cut moral lines. Either way you have a hand in death because there is no path that leads to life. Should her hand be forced to cause suffering in a baby? 

First of all, the heart isn't "gently stopped." In "induced fetal demise" the baby is injected directly in the heart with a drug to kill her. They can also inject the drug into the fluid in the womb, but then the baby's death can take several hours.

I don't think most people here would support killing infants who are disabled or ill, even if they experience pain and suffering. There are only a few differences between an 18-week-old child in the womb and a one week child outside of it: location, level of development, and degree of dependence. And I can't see depriving anyone of their right to life based on any one of those differences.

It's a slippery slope when we start deciding that other people are too disabled or to ill to be allowed to live. 

Treating pain and other conditions may result in death, yes. But intentionally killing someone is entirely different. Everyone dies. Not everyone is killed by someone else's hand. It does matter.

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2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Yup. 

If people want to argue the ethics and philosophy of abortion, they are welcome to do so. AFTER we make sure every woman who wants her baby CAN have her baby without risking abuse, assault, starvation, lack of medical care, financial devastation, discrimination in employment, etc. Plus has safe housing, a good job, and easy access to quality care she can afford for herself and her kid. 

Let's all work together to handle that stuff, THEN we can debate the ethics of abortion for whatever percent of them is left. 

I am pro-healthcare for all. Pro-providing food for anyone who needs it. Pro-providing housing for anyone who needs it.

That said, I don't think we should wait to stop killing human beings until everything in the world is perfect. 

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Much as I love Mercy, just a gentle reminder that the vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester. 

Abortions taking place in the second trimester are comparatively rare, and are complex and gut-wrenching decisions undertaken by women most often in relation to foetal diagnosis of v serious disease/disability incompatible with life. 

Edited by Melissa Louise
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1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Much as I love Mercy, just a gentle reminder that the vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester. 

Abortions taking place in the second trimester are comparatively rare, and are complex and gut-wrenching decisions undertaken by women most often in relation to foetal diagnosis of v serious disease/disability incompatible with life. 

And the first trimester, the baby's heart is beating (as we all know). Brain waves can be detected. The baby will withdraw from a touch. She can get hiccups and suck her thumb.

About 8% of abortions in the U.S. take place after 14 weeks. That's about 71,000 abortions. Rarer than first trimester abortions but not an insignificant number by any means. And when I researched it in the past (I have not lately), I found that many of those late-term abortions are performed on young women who have hidden their pregnancies, not on women whose lives are at risk or whose children who are ill or disabled.

Love you too and thank you for your graciousness.

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21 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Six weeks is counted from LMP, so plenty of women will only become aware they are pregnant after the six week mark. 

 

Yes, though I would think Texans with uteruses will become much more diligent about tracking cycles.
Says someone who took pregnancy tests at just 1 day late for years after dh’s V. ‘Cuz I trust nothing!!!

(And, yes, I know finances and fertility cycles will vary. I don’t mean to imply we’re all the same.)

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12 minutes ago, MercyA said:

And the first trimester, the baby's heart is beating (as we all know). Brain waves can be detected. The baby will withdraw from a touch. She can get hiccups and suck her thumb.

About 8% of abortions in the U.S. take place after 14 weeks. That's about 71,000 abortions. Rarer than first trimester abortions but not an insignificant number by any means. And when I researched it in the past (I have not lately), I found that many of those late-term abortions are performed on young women who have hidden their pregnancies, not on women whose lives are at risk or whose children who are ill or disabled.

Love you too and thank you for your graciousness.

We won't agree on this, though we do agree that more support is needed for women so that keeping a pregnancy is a real choice, and that the Texas law is bad law. 

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58 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

GoDaddy just sent notice to the "pro-life" organization that hosts the whistleblower site that they have 24 hours to find another host. They are accused of violating the TOS. I'm actually a little troubled by this but it's inevitable that a law like this one escalates everything. 

It could be because of volume of use and not because of content. 

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